Author Topic: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club  (Read 62234 times)

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Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« on: September 08, 2011, 11:26:54 AM »
Plutarch's Lives



Plutarch at the Museum of Delphi, Greece.


The readers have spoken and our next read October 1 will be:
Plutarch (c.46 A.D.- c. 120 A.D.) in his famous "Lives" or Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans; also called Parallel Lives.


     Schedule:

     Oct. 1-?: Pompey

     Oct. ?:  Anthony

     Oct. ?: Alcibiades, Coriolanus and comparison

     ?: Demosthenes, Cicero and comparison

     Oct. 29-31:  Windup

Questions for Week I: Pompey:

1. Someone once saidthat everyone wants either money, fame, or power. Which of these was most important to Pompey? What avenues were open to Romans to acheive these goals? Does this differe from modern society?

2. If Plutarch wrote these lives as moral lessons for the young, what do you feel is his moral assessment of Pompey? What is yours?

3. In a period where there was almost no threat to the Roman Empire from the outside, there was almost constant war. Other than reasons already given , what do you think are the reasons for this? Are there any parallels in modern times?

4. How is the US government based on the Roman Republic. What does Pompey's life tell us about how that Republic worked in practice? How is that different from the way ours works (or is it)? Could our Republic be ended at one stroke as the Roman's was?

5. What does Pompey's life tell us about the role of women in Patrician Roman society?



Ruins of the temple of Apollo at Delphi, where Plutarch was a priest

Discussion Leaders: JoanK and  PatH


Clough Translation-Roshanarose's Link

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Clough translation online


PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2011, 12:23:44 PM »
Welcome, everyone, to our October Book Club.  Plutarch really deserved his winning vote, and now we're about to find out why.  The book is easy to get; There are free versions on Kindle, and online, including Project Gutenberg.  I'm using a library book, and somehow I feel I'll be able to renew it several times without running into a waiting list.  It's good to check the translation for readability.  That turned out to be crucial in our Odyssey discussion.  We picked 4 short sections from this massive work, and will take one a week.

Come in and say hi, let us know you're with us, and we can continue our chat from the other site.

I'm really looking forward to this!

Frybabe

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2011, 02:47:52 PM »
X Okay, I'm here.

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2011, 03:39:57 PM »
This is GREAT! Off on a new adventure. And we didn't even have to choose between Greece and Rome -- we get both! This will be a great learning experience, especially for people like me who thought Pompey was a city near a volcano.

A note for KINDLE users. There are a lot of free copies of Plutarch on the Kindle, some translated by Clough (the translation some of us seem to have and like). After experimenting with a few of the Kindle versions, the only one I found with an electronic table of contents cost 95 cents. I thought the ease of finding our selections was worth a dollar. You can recognize it because the title says in parens "(improved  8/11/2010)".

AMICAH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2011, 03:41:36 PM »
 Hello,
       I'm here !
                         Amicah

AMICAH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2011, 03:43:10 PM »
 
   I have the Kindle version suggested. Thanks
                                                        Amicah

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2011, 03:45:14 PM »
WELCOME AMICAH!! We're delighted to see you. Do tell us a little about yourself.

jdorum

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2011, 04:15:29 PM »
Looking forward to the discussions of "Plutarch's Lives". Will go to kindle along with Great Books copy.

pedln

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2011, 10:49:01 PM »
Marking my spot.  JOanK, thanks for the "improved" information.  I finally did find Pompey and bookmarked him in my Kindle text, but no doubt the $.95 version will save a lot of anguish.

Welcome Amicah, and jdorum it's nice to see another Latin student here.

Babi

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2011, 08:31:51 AM »
Yay!!  Thank you, Pat and Joan.  I'm really looking forward to this.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanR

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2011, 12:36:47 PM »
I see we have an intruder, a spammer!

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2011, 01:59:12 PM »
He's gone now.  He had 3 posts altogether.  A while back a spammer posted some ads for really skimpy, short dresses.  Wonder if he realized how much he was wasting his time?

AMICAH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2011, 03:26:57 PM »
I have actually been with you through the Odyssey . Loved every minute . I don't post often because I'm still getting familiar with my laptop. [heaven knows how long that will take . :) ]  I'm fromNJ ,a retired nurse and teacher. I voted for Suetonius , but am quite happy with Plutarch and have begun some research already . Having four years of Latin in high school left me with a love of the classics . This book club is WONDERFUL !!
                                                               AMICAH

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2011, 08:13:47 PM »
" This book club is WONDERFUL !!" I'll echo that!

WELCOME JDORUM!

JoanR

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2011, 09:34:35 PM »
I'm happy to be reading Plutarch after all these years!  I've borrowed the Modern Library Giant edition from my daughter's library since mine didn't have it.  I'm sure that I can renew it twice if I need to.  It would be more comfortable in 2 volumes rather than in this behemoth!  I see that Amazon has it in a 2v. paperback edition.  Bet there are some used copies out there on ABEbooks!

I'm glad I found D.A.Russell's book on Plutarch himself.  I think it helps to know a bit about the man as one reads his work. He seems to have come from a well-to-do, educated and influential family.  "They were the sort of people who would have been sent on embassies to proconsuls. Young Plutarch himself went on one...his colleague got left behind and he had to transact the business himself.  "Always report in the plural" advised his father on his return; say "we" not "I"."  That rather sounds like "spread the blame" if there were any!!!

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2011, 09:47:59 PM »
JOANR: GREAT! You can be our resource for that.

Babi

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2011, 09:01:06 AM »
So delighted to meet you, AMICAH. You're going to find that laptop opens all kinds of
adventures for you.  And yes, this is a great book club thanks to a lot of great people.
   I am happy to have Michael Grant's book for reference as well. This bit of background is from
him.   
     Plutarch is a 2nd century A.D. Greek biographer and philosopher. He was
a prolific writer, but most important historically his biographies are his biographies.
Twenty-three pairs of his juxtaposed 'lives' have survived. Plutarch, in explaining the
value of biography, wrote that "we ought to seek out virtue not merely to contemplate it,
but to derive benefit from doing so."  "...in the same way we ought to apply our intellectual
vision to those models which can inspire it to attain its own proper virtue..."
   
 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JudeS

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2011, 02:32:21 PM »
I'm happy to join this discussion! Hope it is as wonderful as the one on the Odyssey.
Iknow we finished that book but I recently heard the following about the Bards of Greece (and possibly other Bards as well).
Because the Bards traveled from place to place , always telling the same myths, they were instrumental in forming a national identity. Without newspapers, books, radio  or TV the Bards brought the same history, geography and ideas to a populace hungry for entertainment and willing to believe every word they heard.

Now a question-My library  couldn't find a full copy of Plutarchs Lives in their system (San Jose CA population close to a million)they are appealing to the University to loan me a copy. No promise when or if it will arrive. I downloaded the first chapter on Pompey from the suggested site.  Will that cover all the material that is in the book for the first week?

It was a wonder and a delight to meet Joan K in person.  Wish we lived closer.

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2011, 03:01:56 PM »
JUDE: I echo that sentiment!

Dana

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2011, 07:44:37 PM »
Hi,
I know you've all moved on to Plutarch, so this is probably not of interest to any one, but,..... maybe to someone......I have been reading the Orestia because it seemed to me to follow from the Odyssey.  Today I was looking for more interpretative stuff and very easily I found this terrific BBC program at the bottom of the Wikipedia site on the Orestia. It is a really interesting program, 45 mins, and well worth listening to.......

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2011, 08:11:29 PM »
Dana, don't give up, we might pick the Oresteia next.  My first contact with it was about half a century ago, when I saw it acted by a local company.  I didn't know anything about it, but it really blew me away, it was so powerful.  I'd love to discuss it.

Dana

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2011, 08:35:17 PM »
Actually Pat I was trying to find a version I could look at, but no luck, there have been some of course but apparently not available on the internet that I could find....
You might be interested in that BBC program...it does a pretty good job of explainiing why it's so powerful.  I find it almost tough to read, its just so intense.  But definitely.... a must read, on my bucket list....it joins us together in common humanity, 500BC to 2000AD, we haven't changed a bit...

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2011, 08:50:34 PM »
DANA: I listened to the BBC program, and was fascinated!They gave a summary of the plot, and talked about the issues that it raises: femanism, patriarchy, and whether revenge is the province of the family or the state.

In "the Story of Civilization", we hear that all societies go through stages: first there are blood fueds, but these are endless (as here A kills B, B's family kills A, A's family kills and on and on forever. Finally, the role of vengence is taken over by the state: A kills B, B is tried and punished by the state and that's the end of it.


The Oresteia is portrayed as giving this argument: does vengence belong to the family or the state. And  the play in in the context of the politics of the time. From the hindsight of history, we can see that only when the transition is made to the state, can we have a well-ordered peaceful society. But they couldn't see that then.

Maybe we'll choose that next time.

Frybabe

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2011, 10:35:31 PM »
Dana, here is one you can look at online. http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/aeschylus/oresteiatofc.htm Not real pretty but it is readable.

Google has an ebook, but it costs. I was interested to see that Robert Fagles translated this one. http://books.google.com/books?id=YWJDsp1YhqsC The cover on this one reminds me of those mindreading creatures in The Chronicles of Riddick.


kidsal

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2011, 02:30:11 AM »
HERE!

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2011, 08:36:11 AM »
PATH and JOANK - I have not been in a Latin class, but am always interested in learning.  I don't know a thing about Plutarch so I looked a book up in my library.  Here is a summary which I found helpful to understand a little about the man:

"PLUTARCH. c.46--c.125 Considered by many to be the most important Greek writer of the early Roman period, Plutarch was a member of a well-to-do Greek family, a chief magistrate, a priest at Delphi, and an exceptionally well-read individual. His philosophical views were based on those of Plato and, although a Greek, he esteemed the achievements and attributes of the Romans. By the time Plutarch's works were published for the first time in the eleventh century, some had already been lost. He wrote innumerable essays on philosophical, historical, political, religious, and literary subjects, 78 of which survive today and are known collectively as the "Moralia." He is known primarily, however, for his Parallel Lives of Greeks and Romans, which consists of 50 biographies---23 of prominent Greeks, 23 of Roman leaders, and 4 separate lives---accompanied at intervals by short comparative essays. Although historical information is included in the work, Plutarch wrote it originally to inspire emulation in youth, so the emphasis is on character, moral choice, and anecdote. Sir Thomas North's 1579 translation into English of Parallel Lives became an important source for William Shakespeare which he used for three plays, Julius Caesar, Antony and Cleopatra, and Coriolanus. (Bowker Author Biography)"

Roxania

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2011, 11:06:37 AM »
Checking in from Ginny's Latin 102 class.  I had actually started reading the Odyssey with this group, but fell by the wayside when life got in the way and I ended up doing a lot of traveling.  Hope to do better this time!

Dana

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2011, 12:07:26 PM »
Hey Frybabe, thanks.  I have actually got Fagles translation which is great but I had a sudden longing to see if I could find a production of the play, but no luck....
So glad you enjoyed the talk, JoanK...

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2011, 10:10:04 PM »
Eureka!  When Plutarch was chosen, I searched to see if I owned a copy, with no luck.  But tonight I did a thorough search of Bob's history bookcase, and I found it.  It's the Modern Library, Dryden/Clough edition, same as Ginny's and my library copy, in great condition.  It's probably over 50 years old.

While I was at it, I made a thorough look through the bookcase, which is a big deal, since it's 4 feet wide and 7 feet tall, and many of the shelves are doubled, a row of paperbacks behind the hardbacks.  Fifty years of being a history buff (Bob, not me) takes it's toll.  I found all sorts of goodies I hadn't thought about for years.

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2011, 10:16:14 PM »
Kidsal, Ella, and Roxania, Welcome, welcome.  It's good to see you here.

roshanarose

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2011, 10:21:03 PM »
Present, Miss!
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2011, 10:23:40 PM »
Hooray!  Good to see you, roshanarose.

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2011, 10:24:47 PM »
I've been making no assumptions about who will actually be in this discussion until I see them here.

Gumtree

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2011, 04:29:29 AM »
I'm here too - but only just. Will download the text from the heading - at the moment I'm just too busy busy busy to even look for a copy. Out of those chosen for discussion my edition of Plutarch's Lives only has Alcibiades.

Looking forward to the discussion. 
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Babi

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2011, 09:04:48 AM »
 Sounds like a windfall to me, PAT. Can you tell us about the 'goodies'?
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2011, 03:07:35 PM »
Great to see you, GUM, even part of you. Don't worry, ROXANIA, that's the great thing about this site. If you don't make one discussion, there's always another one.

bookad

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2011, 06:03:37 PM »
hi there

will be following the discussion with the online version at this point
going to try and get some background info as knew more about Homer and his Odyssey than this guy
is it my imagination or is Plutarch a bit 'dry' reading...everyone sounds so excited, but in
leafing thru the online felt a bit hard going...
is there a source that is easier reading for this non-classic background person

Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

roshanarose

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2011, 10:40:50 AM »
Hi Deb - You make a very good point.  Reading about people whom you have never heard of may seem rather dry and dull at first glance.  However, many of us may have thought the same about "The Odyssey".  It is just like in real life, the best part is getting to know someone.  :)

The only advice I can give to you is choose a least one of the bios that interests you and look outside the square, as they say.  You may ask how?  The answer is at your own fingertips and receptive mind - they call it a search engine.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2011, 11:25:28 AM »
Welcome, Deb!  It's good to have you here.  My weighty hardback is the same as the online version, and at first I found the language a bit daunting, but as I got into it I got caught up in it, and could ignore the language.

Does anyone have a different version they can comment on?

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2011, 12:05:18 PM »
PATH, I don't know a thing about ancient history; perhaps it's time I put a toe in the water?  I've always loved modern history, but this is all new territory.  I'll follow along and if I think of anything at all that might be of interest to others, I'll post.