Women in Greek Drama

[Babi]

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WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA

Greek Theater at Epidauros

           Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.

         So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!

Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
May 31-June 15
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides
June 16-?

Antigone Online
Agamemnon Online
Iphigenia in Verse
Iphigenia in Prose


Iphigenia

Schedule:
June 16-? First half--until the point where Orestes and Plyades are talking about Orestes' being sacrificed.
   Orestes, knowing he's going to die, says "the Oracle of Phoebus is useless to me now, for look the lady comes."
   Then Iphegenia and the chorus return

Questions:

1. How does Euripides style differ from that of Sophocles and Aeschylus?  What other ways is he different?

2. Why does Ipheginia think that Orestes is dead? What do you think her dream meant?

3. Is there a difference in the attitudes toward the gods and omens in this play as against the earlier ones we've read? If so, what indications do you see of it?

4. How do you think all these Greek slave women got there?

5. Are there traces of a sense of humor here? Was there any humor in the earlier plays? This play is neither a tragedy nor a comedy. Are there other such plays in the Greek repertoire?

6. How is the fact that Iphigenia takes the lead in rescuing them fitted into traditional women's roles? In general, what are some of the ways the playwrights we read manage to present strong women and still maintain stereotypical views of women?

7. It took two goddesses and one human woman (herself) to save Ipheginia, not to mention two heroes and a ship. Could you have done it more economically?

DLs: JoanK and PatH

 Clytemnestra may be self-deceived.  Now that Aegisthus is in charge, he sounds
like the type that will be as arrogant toward her as he is to everyone else. And he
definitely does not sound like the man it would take to "set the house in order".

 Before I forget, there is a question I meant to ask.  Early on, the chorus was
repeating a word in a way that sounded like mourning.  Can someone please tell
me the meaning of "ailinon"?   I checked a Greek-English dictionary, but it did not
recognize the word.  Old Greek, perhaps?

[PatH]

Yes, I think Aegisthus will rule badly.  It's interesting to speculate on Clytemnestra's thinking, though.  Her main motive is revenge for Agamemnon's murder of Iphigenia, but that's not all.  She talks of the curse from three generations of evil, and seems to think she might finally have gotten rid of it.  Maybe she thinks she can actually achieve a kind of peace.

In the last play, experts argue whether the tragic hero is Creon or Antigone.  The same is true here.  Is it Clytemnestra or Agamemnon?  What does anyone think, and why.

[JoanK]

BABI: I agree about Aegisthus. He's very unlikely to even listen to her ideas on how to end strife, much less carry them out.

Anyone know the meaning of "ailinon"? I don't remember it in my translation. If you could pinpoint where it occurs, we can see what other translations say.

[JoanK]

We have a decision to make in the next few days. The first two plays took longer than we had planned. I think we needed the extra time to get into the unfamiliar form and language. But we are running into other planned discussions.

The third play I had proposed is light, nowhere near the quality or importance in our literary tradition of the first two. I proposed it mainly because, like the Greeks, after all this tragedy, I wanted something with a happy ending. But it may not be worth the trouble.

At this point, we can:

1. Say two plays is enough, and wind things up.

2. Read the third play, Iphigenia in Tauris by Euripides, as planned.

3. Read one of the other plays from the two trilogies that we've already started. either:

   3a.The next play after Agammemnon in the trilogy, The Libation bearers, in which Ags children, Orestes and Electra have to deal with what his mother did.

   3bOr Oedipus Rex by Sophecles, considered by some to be the greatest of the greek plays. It started the series  of tragedies that led to Antigone's dilemma.

Let me know. Whatever we decide, we have read two of the most impoortant plays in our literary heritage. What do you think of that heritage?

[kidsal]

Recommend reading  the Libation Bearers

[kidsal]

Changed my mind -- Iphigenia in Tauris -- I have Bynner translation with Lattimore Introduction.

[Frybabe]

I have no real preference. However, I do have Iphigenia in Tauris, and I like the idea of yet another writer to compare the different styles, etc. Since I don't know much about Greek plays, I like the "overview" or "introduction to" effect.

[PatH]

Babi, if you give me a sentence or two where "ailinon" appears, I'll tell you what my translation does with it.

[Babi]

 Unfortunately, I no longer have my copy.  Next time I'm at the library I'll look it up and also see
what the other translations have to say.  Thanks for the offer, PAT.

[JoanK]

Two votes for Iphigenia. What do the rest of you say?

And while you're thinking, can we answer Virginia Woolf's question: where do these strong women come from in a literature of such a male-dominated society?

[Babi]

  PAT, I was able to check the translation I have been using, but the other two translations were
not available.  So I'd be interested to know what your copy says.  The quote is "Ailinon, ailinon cry, but may well yet conquer."  It is line 113.

[PatH]

I think I've found it.  It's repeated twice more after long stanzas.  In Fagles it's

"Cry, cry for death, but good win out in glory in the end."

In the online link we posted it's

"Sing out the song of sorrow, song of grief, but let the good prevail."

[PatH]

In translation, we don't get a complete idea of the quality of the poetry in these plays.  Sophocles was evidently a superb poet, and Aeschylus was almost as good.  This is hard to convey in translation.  The Greek meters and conventions don't work well in English.  I have a feeling the languages don't mesh well either.  Apparently classical Greek had a very small vocabulary and made up for it with really complicated grammar, so I bet it's not easy to preserve the feel of the original.

You probably have a choice between accurate prose translation and good poetry which might or might not closely reflect the original.  The most poetic translation I've seen is Hughes, and even I can see that he's taken a lot of liberties.  Fagles is pretty poetic and guessing from his Odyssey translation he probably tries for accuracy.  He's heavy going at times, though.  Maybe it's Aeschylus' style; Fagles' Antigone was easy enough reading.

There are plays on words, too.  A booklet I checked out of the library (Aeschylus The Oresteia by Simon Goldhill) goes into excruciating detail about the use of the word dike (justice), the subtleties of its meanings in Greek, and the many plays on the word in the Oresteia.  I found a few of his references, and it didn't translate well, and the word Justice isn't even used for some of them.

It's a good thing they're good plays as well as good poems.

[straudetwo]

JoanK,  
ISorry not to have  had the time to respond sooner. I hardly know where my head is these days,
Here  is another vote for Iphigeneia (or Iphigenia to the Romans).  It was the original plan, and it makes sense to go on to Euripides.
We had a "sampling"- if I may call it that -  and for some of us a new experience.

Option 3a. would take us forward  several years  after the death of Ag. Orestes was a baby when Clytemnestra carried him in her arms  when she rushed to Iphigenia.  Within the relatively short period allotted to this project, It feels right to now take a closer look at  courageous  Iphigenia.

Option 3b., on the other hand,  would carries us back to Oedipus - admittedly in greater detail than we learned while readingAntigone.  Euripides' approach may be something to watch for, even in translation.

PatH,
Your point is well taken. May I add that, when it comes to translations,  have to remember that, unlile classical Greek like Latin which have not changed, English has, and so have  the other modern "live"languages.  The English phraseology of a few centuries ago might sound strange to our ears, and that is in fact the justification  for making new translations of classical works.
 
In this connection I fondly recall  our discussion  here of Dante's Inferno,  which I had read in the original Italian during my study there. I had never read it in English.  I used the  then  latest translation by Robert Pinsky,  our Poet Laureate for some years.  The Italian and the English texts are side by side, one left, one right.  Mr. Pinsky's translation is beyond wonderful; it is inspiring and a delight to read.

I probably won't have much time for the computer this week. My daughter flew in today and returns home next Tuesday.  But I count on more time to concentrate on this discussion when the festivities have ended.

In haste.
In haste

[JudeS]

Well I have returned from the world of being overwhelmed by guests who came to visit the guests staying with us.
The numbers ranged from six to eleven people each day. I was left exhausted.

Partially recovered I read your posts yesterday and today finished the play itself.
I am amazed at the difference in translations.
My line 113 is,
" the king of birds appearing to the kings of the ships,
the black eagle and behind it the white one,"

By the end of the play I was entranced by the beauty of the translation.(Hugh Lloyd-Jones.). He gives references to Shakespeares use of some of the metaphors used in our play. For instance lines 1316-7
"I cry not out in terror, like a bird before a bush"
This is found in Henry V as:
"The bird that hath been limed in a bush
With trembling wings misdoubteth every bush."

More tomorrow.   

[straudetwo]

Jude, we posted around the same time.  Welcome back.

[PatH]

Jude, here's Fagles for your two quotes:

"The kings of birds to the kings of beaking prows, one black,
     one with a blaze of silver
         skimmed the palace spearhand right..."

(If you didn't know the shape of Greek ships, that "beaking prows" would be confusing.)

    Friends--I cried out,
not from fear, like a bird fresh caught,
but that you will testify to how I died.

[Babi]

The Fagles translation makes much more sense than mine. Reading mine again, I wonder
if a word was omitted in error.  It would be more intelligible if it saie, "Ailinon,
ailinon cry, but good may yet well conquer."  That's closer to what Fagles translated,
also.

[PatH]

Incidentally, Fagles has both the numbers of the original lines and the line numbers of his translation, and often neither equates exactly with other translations.  It's usually close enough to find a passage, though.

[JudeS]

Lloyd- Jones, the translator of my copy is the Regius Professor of Greek at Oxford Univ.
He is constantly pointing out "corrupt lines". This means that they were indecipherable in the original because of wear and tear of the paper. He points out  that this gives the translator a wide range  of interpertations for those lines.
There can be no correct or incorrect translation since the lines are indecipherable.

I will quoote some facts I found interesting from his intro.

"Not only the language of the chorus, but also that of the actors was altogether far from everyday speech.
The language of Aes.abounds with words borrowed from epic or lyric poetry. He himself freely coined high-sounding compound nouns and adjectives.....
The style of Aes. is in every way a grand style, designed to carry the listener far from the world of ordinary reality. Just as he made more use of spectacle than his successors -in the Orestia Agam.makes a triumphal entry...;the bodies of murdered persons are displayed;the trial scene in the last scene is followed by a torch lit scene....so his language is meant to create a similar effect of pageantry."

[JoanK]

I see now that translators borrow freely from other sources. the version of Agammemnon that I read decades ago had the watchman, when he saw the light but is filled with foreboding, say "Man is born to trouble as the sparks fly upward."

That struck me, and for all this time, i remembered it as something that Aesculus said. Come to find out, it's from the Old Testiment. The translator must have put it in there.

[JoanK]

Traude, Kidsal, Frybabe all want to read Iphigenia.

BABI, JUDE: what about you? Are you game?

[JudeS]

Fine with me. Took out the book from the library when we started the discussion. My translation is by Paul Roche.

[Babi]

 

"designed to carry the listener far from the world of ordinary reality. Just as he made
 more use of spectacle"

  Sounds good to me, JUDE. A lot of the fun in reading is getting
away from 'ordinary reality'.  I think good drama, and writing, can still affirm the
underlying truths, but in a way that allows us to see them in a fresh, entertaining way.

 Oh, yes, JOANK. I plan to read Iphigenia. I'm just not sure when I'll be able to squeeze
it in between 'Great Expectations; and 'Run'...not to mention my latest bit of escapism fantasy.
Uh, when exactly does this discussion begin?

[PatH]

We should do it as soon as anyone can read the first half of the play, say in a day or so.  That way we'll be through before Great Expectations starts.  There aren't going to be any gaps for quite a while.  This play is a much easier read than the other two, lighter and less profound.

[JoanK]

OK, lets go on, but we don't have much time. We want to finish by July ! when great Expectations starts.

So for Saturday, lets read the first half of the play: until the point where Orestes and Plyades are talking about Orestes' being sacrificed. Orestes, knowing he's going to die, says "the Oracle of Phoebus is useless to me now, for look the lady comes" Then Iphegenia and the chorus return.

(This is like the old Saturday serials, where we leave Superman trapped in the well, and we don't find out til next week whether he gets out.)

[JudeS]

JoanK
Wasn't the Saturday Serial "Perils of Pauline"?

Did you really get Superman serials? Lucky you, if you did.
I got my Superman from Comic Books.

[JoanK]

It was different superheroes: I think sometimes it was Superman.

Anyway, now we don't have a superhero struck in the well, but poor hapless Orestes. Who will save him?

(Our parents only had enough money to send us to the movies every OTHER Saturday, so I never found out how he got out of the well. By the time I got back, he was stuck in the burning building instead!

[PatH]

Yes, Judy, there were Saturday Superman serials sometimes, too.  And JoanK is right.  We never, ever saw a whole story.  It wasn't just money; the main feature had to be something our parents thought was suitable for us, and often it wasn't.

[Frybabe]

I don't remember Superman in movie serials. I saw the old TV show. My Saturday matinees were usually cowboy movies, like Roy Rogers, Red Ryder, Gene Autry, and some Ma and Pa Kettle thrown in.

Anyhow, I've got to get going on my reading. I haven't started Iphigenia yet.

[PatH]

It's a quicker read than the other two.  I'm writing a summary of events between Agamemnon and Iphigenia--will post it in a bit.

In the meantime, we can still feed in any remaining comments on Agamemnon--today or later.

[Babi]

 All those, FRYBABE, plus some Tarzan and Abbott and Costello.   

 I'll pick up Iphigenia this morning; that will give me the weekend to get well into it.

[PatH]

Posted for JoanK.

We have most of the background we need for Iphigenia. Except for one thing: why is she still alive? We left her having been sacrificed to the gods by her father, Agamemnon, thus triggering the revenge of Clytemnestra.

Euripides takes the story one step further. In this version, the goddess Artemis takes pity on Iphigenia, and at the last minute, substitutes a doe for her (no one notices the difference) and whisks her off to an island in the middle of nowhere, Tauris. there, she is the priestess at a temple serving Artemis.

Iph explains this at the beginning, but it might not be clear. She is unhappy, since her job is to prepare any Greek who lands on the island to be sacrificed to Artemis (i.e. killed). Not fun!

[PatH]

Since we're not reading the rest of the Oresteia, I thought I'd summarize what happens to Orestes before he shows up here.

As Aeschylus tells it, in The Libation Bearers, Orestes, now grown, returns to Argos, is reunited with his sister Electra, and by a stratagem gains access to Aegisthus and kills him.  He then, with much reluctance and internal struggle, kills Clytemnestra.  In a horrifying finale, as he is standing over Aegisthus and Clytemnestra exactly as Clytemnestra stood over her victims, his talk mixes more and more guilt and horror in with his explanations and he descends into madness, finally fleeing, pursued by monsters that only he can see.  In The Eumenedes, Orestes tries to get absolution from Apollo, who had ordered the revenge, but it doesn’t work, and he flees to Athens, appeals to Athena, and is put on trial.  He is acquitted, and can return to Argos, free of his demons.  In this process, a modern system of justice has replaced the old system of repeated cycles of revenge.

Euripides tells the story of Orestes’ revenge too, in his play Electra.   In his version, Electra takes a more active part in tricking their mother, and is present at the murder. Castor and Polydeuces (Pollux) then appear and predict the events of the trial and acquittal.  (They are divine, but also brothers of Clytemnestra.)  Electra marries Orestes’ friend Pylades, and Orestes goes off for his trial.

[PatH]

Now, in Iphigenia in Tauris, Euripides has added another hoop for Orestes to jump through before he’s free.  He must bring back the image from the temple of Artemis in Tauris.  So here he is at the start of the play, about to try to do this.

[JoanK]

BABI: You don't have to get Iph. --there are two versions in the heading. The prose version is easier to read.

I didn't think of Electra when I was looking at strong women.  There are a lot out there.

[kidsal]

Remarks by Richmond Lattimore:
Structure and plot is a romance or romantic comedy (Euripides wrote many romantic comedies).  Plot:  (Similar to play Helen) A woman is transported to the barbaric ends of the earth and held in captivity; convinced that the man she loves most is dead; immediately meets this man and joyfully recognizes him; then contrives their escape; all ends in peace.
Play was presented as a tragedy but the formula we are accustomed to do not apply here – tragic choice/punishment /irreconcilable conflict of characters/revenge breeding new hatred.  Lattimore finds two dominant ideals:  the love of Greece and friendship. 

[Babi]

 Oh, I found a copy of ten Euripides plays in the library,JOAN, including 'Iphigenia..'.
I've read a bit of the intro., and will start on the play itself this weekend.

 What a boon for the dramatist, to be able to re-arrange mythical 'history' to suit one's
plot and whim.  You want to write a play about a girl sacrificed very young? Simple, just
arrange for a goddess to intervene, secretly. I am glad the play explains that, PAT. It
would bother me terribly otherwise.

 I thought it grossly unfair that Orestes should be ordered by a god to commit a crime, then
punished for doing so.  Then to have the god who ordered it refuse to absolve him?  And to
think I used to see Apollo simply as the god of music and sunlight, the original 'fair-haired boy'.
Ugh!

[JoanK]

I'd think the Greeks would get tired of these gods of theirs. In fact, look for signs in the play that that's true.

[PatH]

What a boon for the dramatist, to be able to re-arrange mythical 'history' to suit one's
plot and whim.  You want to write a play about a girl sacrificed very young? Simple, just
arrange for a goddess to intervene, secretly. I am glad the play explains that, PAT. It
would bother me terribly otherwise.

You can bet it would have bothered the original audience, too.  They seem to have liked having the old stories re-worked a bit (but not too much) to give new ones, but I'm sure they were just waiting to pounce on any unexplained inconsistency.