Women in Greek Drama

[JudeS]

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WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA

Greek Theater at Epidauros

           Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.

         So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!

Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
May 31-?
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides

Antigone Online
Agamemnon Online


Agamemnon

Schedule:
May 31-June 5 First half
June 6-11? Second half

Questions for the first half (Up to the point where Agammemnon and Clytemnestra Exit, the chorus speaks, and Clytemnestra re-enters to talk to Cassandra for the first time):

1. How are fire and darkness used in this play?

2. What mood does the watchman set for the play?

3. What do you think of Clytemnestra's technological innovation?

4. What do we learn of the character of Agammemnon?

5. Does Clytemnestra's picture of women in wartime resonate with your experience?

6. Can you tell Clytemnestra's real feelings toward Agammemnon from her welcoming speech to him?

7. Why is Agamemnon's walking on the red carpet so important?

8 . What is the source of the chorus's foreboding?

9. How does Aeschylus compare to Sophocles? So far, which do you prefer?

10. Does the structure of the play seem different from that of Antigone?  How?

DLs: JoanK and PatH

Babi
I also read and reread the words of the chorus to Clytemnestra re "womens words".

This brought up the question wether there was an official policy of the Greeks towards women and their place in society or it was just accepted that women were an inferior breed.
It wasn't till the Crimean war that women were allowed on the battlefield.(Florence Nightingale) Women got the vote only in the 20th century and started  to run for political office some years later.

Although Royalty was an exception the fate of most women up till modern times was parallel to the lives of Greek women .
So Is this a continuum of history or are we looking for shades of life that are particular to Greek women?

The two women we have read about till now are from the Royalty and thus much more priviliged than the ordinary female citizen.
Were women in Greece considered citizens or were they known as something else?

Sorry if my ignorance is being exposed.

[JoanK]

JUDE: "So Is this a continuum of history or are we looking for shades of life that are particular to Greek women?"

We're doing whatever we want to do: it's our discussion.

I was spurred on by a question that Virginia Woolf asked: why do periods like ancient Greece (and Shakespeare's England) where women's role is so oppressed, produce so much literature with strong women characters?

I believe that women were not citizens. They certainly could not vote. But it may be that women related to citizens had certain rights that others didn't. I don't know what the property and divorce laws were.

[JoanK]

This seems to be a time when there's a lot about the greeks on TV. This morning, on local college TV, a prof was talking about greek drama: the role of masks and the role of the chorus. In addition to the chorus' roles we already mentioned, he said that Greek plays were about social problems, so it was good to have the citizens (audience members) and their views represented on stage.

The Romans, whose drama didn't deal with social problems, or the views of the citizens, eliminated the chorus.

The prof also pointed out that Greek plays always glorified the gods, while Roman plays glorified the emporor. Dionysis, the greek version of Bachus, was also the god of actors, and plays were presented in his homor -- hence the ode to him in Antigone. I'm not sure why all the praises go to Zeus in this play?

He showed a short scene from Oedipus Rex with the characters in masks. It really looks strange to a Westerner.

[JoanK]

The other greek program I saw was "In search of the greek gods", an episode in a travel show "Adventures with Purpose". The traveller visited places in Greece (Athens. Olympia, the site of the Olympics, Delphi, Ithaca) with a Greek scholar who talked about the relevant Greek god or goddess. her theme was that the Greeks made the gods human: each god or goddess represnting an aspect of our own humanity, so that we can celebrate them within ourselves, not just "out there".

[Babi]

  Interesting, JOAN.  That has some similarities to the Hindu perception of gods.  Each of the
numberous 'gods' actually represents some aspect of GOD,  who is far too complex for the
human mind to grasp.  These representatives allow people to worship these various aspects as
they wish, just as the fourfold path people to choose what best fits their own needs and
personality.

  In Greece, We can see that each city/peoples are under the special protection of one of the gods. While the Greeks petition the help of their patron,  they must be wary and respectful of the
god/goddess of the Trojans.  “And if they honor the presiding Gods and altars of the plundered territory, then those despoilers shall not be despoiled.  Only let no desire afflict the host to lay rapacious hands on sanctities; the last lap of the race is still to run.” 
  I find it so odd that the protector god of one city can be appeased for the destruction of his/her
city, so long as the attackers are respectful and honor them.  Not only that, but why can one
god insist on a human sacrifice and another god equally insist that the person responsible be
punished for it?   Oh, yeah, right!  The Greeks created their gods in their own image. 
 

[PatH]

If I remember correctly, some of the Greeks slipped up and despoiled some of the Trojan temples, which is why they had so much trouble getting back home.

It's pretty hopeless if you get caught in the crossfire of the gods' squabbles.  Nothing you do will save you.  One of my introductions calls this the "tragic double bind".

[PatH]

Where is everyone in the reading?  Have you read Agamemnon's speech yet?

[JudeS]

Athenian dramatists:
AESCHYLUS                                                    SOPHOCLES                                                     EURIPEDES
525-456                                                          497-405                                                          485-406
Total productions   90                                        Total         125                                                Total    92

Most of the plays were created between the defeat of the Persians in 472 and the defeat of Athens by Sparta in 404BC.

They were produced for audiences in Athens and Attica.This small district is circumscribed by the sea and the mountains.

Hugh Lloyd -Jones:"These are plays with portrayals ofthe human dilemma which forswear the luxury of moral confidenceand assured solutions. Here are sufferings disproportionate to the original error, characters caught and trapped in situations which are too much for them and for which they are only partially responsible. Here are pity and terror treated as facts of life with which one must come to terms. here finally is defiance combined with a fatalism which accepts the tragic scene even at the moment of its repudiation. The watchword we listen to today is not decorum but danger."

I don't know if this material will help others but it has given me a historic framework with which to understand and judge the  characters and the action. Now I can go back and continue my reading of the play which I stopped while searching for this frame of reference in order to judge the material and react to it.

[JoanK]

jUDE: that's great!

"Here are pity and terror treated as facts of life with which one must come to terms."

Yes. The old translation of Ag that I read decades ago had the watchman saying "man is born to trouble as the sparks fly upward".

I remembered that all these years, assuming it was Aeschulis's simile. It's not: it's from the bible, but it fits this play.

Again, I think the main themes of this play are trying to come to terms with SUFFERING, and trying to come to a sense of JUSTICE in what seems to be such an unjust world. Do you all agree?

[ginny]

But who here IS the Just? I can't figure that one out! Not too many to pick from among the major characters. There seem to me to be so few characters! That, I guess is because as PatH reminds us  that Sophocles invented the 3rd character.   I kept thinking there WERE three, he did a good job there.  Fooled me,  I just caught that in rereading everybody's posts this morning.

So "Justice" is a concept here, too, so strong it's almost a character.

 Or is it those understood as part of the background and history who are the "Just?"

I guess I'm looking for "Justice" and "the Just" here as comparison..

I've finally got a copy, it's the Lattimore. I don't see that anybody else has Lattimore or have I not read closely enough?

I like Lattimore, I have heard a great deal about him from famous translators who seem to use him as a base, just like he uses Symth's text and then adds his own interpretations,  and his intro is wonderful, and now I know the answer to one of the questions in the heading about the purple (he has it as purple) carpet/ robe Agamemnon walked on.

I stopped at line 855 since that's half of 1676 (or so)  lines, but I can go further,  where I stopped Clytemnestra comes forward to speak.

So what strikes me initially?

I really got a thrill right after reading about the beacon lighting as described by Clytemnestra from 290 on, when Queen Elizabeth lit the first of a string of  beacons which will show up all over, including one in Hadrian's Wall, sort of made it come alive.

There seems to be lots of symbolism here on light and darkness, the watchman waiting for the light as you've said, the beacons, I just loved that.


9. How does Aeschylus compare to Sophocles? So far, which do you prefer?

So far I like Aeschylus very much. He's not getting into the characters in depth here, no inward motivation etc., (we could use some with the idea of Iphigenia) and  he's sticking to the tradition of lyric tragedy of his time,  he seems very straightforward. Of course we have the background to thank for that I guess both here and in the Intro, and in PatH's hilarious find, I loved that.

And another Homecoming, one of the main themes of the Odyssey.

I'm seeing a lot of irony and contradiction.  Clytemnestra says she is  glad to see Agamemnon, when we know she isn't. He's brought along a girl friend,  Cassandra,  who herself is sort of famous, that's nice for "faithful wifey" at home. He's killed Clytemnestra's (and his)   daughter when he really didn't have to, and she's remarried. On the surface it looks fine. It's not.

Paris is getting the heck beat out of him for taking Helen away when she admitted that she left on her own free will leaving her children, so Aeschylus is not going verbatim from Homer but plowing his own path. And again quite a difference in what is said outright especially by the "Kings Men" Chorus and what actually is true.

Apparently this is one of three plays called the Oresteia, I never heard of the next two, but am glad to be reading this.

The Herald says Agamemnon has come

 "bearing light in gloom
to you and to all that are assembled here." in line 523.

It sounds to me as if he's full of himself, just as he has been in the Iliad and the Odyssey, to his detriment.

Clytemnestra says "and may he find a wife within his house as true
as on the day he left her..." 686  Wow, she's the antithesis of "true."

So they are saying one thing while doing another, is this the kind of "justice" they keep talking about?  Like here:

"And Righteousness is a shining in
the smoke of mean houses.
Her blessing is on the just man.
From high halls started with gold by reeking hands
she turns back
with eyes that glance away to the simple in heart." (777)

So lots on the just and the problems of Pride  from the Chorus in reference to Troy (Ilium) but I guess ironically foreshadowing maybe the plot here.

Finally Lattimore says (I'm quoting this in order to say something useful to the discussion. hahahaa) one difference between Aeschylus and Sophocles (thank you Joan K for those dates):   "Tragedy, for us, begins with Aeschylus." We don't  know his predecessors enough, (Thespis, Pratinas, Choerilus and Phrynichus).

He says "Sophocles turned tragedy inward upon the principal actors, and drama becomes drama of characters. His plays may open with public scenes, but, as they progress, the interest focuses hard on the hero. Agamemnon is a play about the Trojan War, but Antigone is not a play about  the Theban War, though that lies in the background.

In Sophocles the choruses are commentaries on the action, not part of the larger action, and their imagery is functional to the choruses themselves but not to the tragedy as a whole."

So the Conquering Hero has come home, to lots of admonitions about the just and the prideful, this can't end well....  That's a great Hugh Lloyd- Jones quote, Jude!

I like this play.

[Babi]

Considering the ideas about women prevalent in those times, I can see why the
idea of Helen playing a role in this is ignored. Women were weak-minded and unable to
stand up to the importunities of a man.  Paris is entirely to blame.
 
 The chorus, in strophe 3, tells us that the surviving warriors have had a major change
of heart since they set sail so long ago.  Then, they were perfectly willing that an innocent
child should be sacrificed, so that they could set sail to war.  Now, after 10 years of war
and the loss of many friends, there are bitter words.  “ ‘And he, who died a noble death----
All to avenge another man’s wife.’  It is muttered in a whisper, and it spreads with growling
envy of the sons of Atreus”. 

What do the rest of you think of the lines: 
    “Watchful are the Gods of all
       Hands with slaughter stained.  The black
       Furies wait, and when a man
       Has grown by luck, not justice,  great,
       With sudden overturn of chance
        They wear him to a shade, and, cast
        Down to perdition, who shall save him?” 
 This seems to be suggesting that Agamemnon attained his greatness through sheer luck,
not because he earned or deserved it.  I found nothing in his [mythological] history to explain
this. 

[PatH]

Hi, Ginny.  It's good to see you in here, and I'm glad you're enjoying the play.  Don't think anyone else has Lattimore.  He should be good.  Cathy read his Iliad in college, so I have that, but not anything else of his.

People in the play seem concerned with all aspects of justice--what it is, how it works out in life, and whether their own actions are just.  The first thing Agamemnon says when he enters is that his actions in the war have been just, and that the gods were acting justly when they determined Troy should be destroyed.  In the later plays, justice evolves and changes.

Thanks for reminding me how full of himself Agamemnon was in the Iliad.  I wasn't thinking of that.

[PatH]

Babi, the passages you quoted are powerful and bitter--the soldiers coming home as handfuls of ashes in urns, the growing resentment of the people.

The people's voice is heavy with hatred,
now the curses of the people must be paid,
and now I wait, I listen...
  there--there is something breathing
under the night's shroud.  God takes aim
  at the ones who murder many;
the swarthy Furies stalk the man
gone rich beyond all rights--with a twist
  of fortune grind him down, dissolve him
into the blurring dead--there is no help.
The reach for power can recoil,
the bolt of god can strike you at a glance.

I agree with you that, whatever we might think of his choices, Agamemnon did what he did by ability, not luck.  It makes more sense if we interpret the lines as meaning someone who doesn't deserve his success because he did things wrongly  "has grown by luck, not justice, great".

By the way, anyone who reads the remaining two plays will meet the Furies in person, and it's not a pretty sight.

[JoanK]

GINNY: it was JUDE, not me, that brought us the dates.

These plays have become so influential in our literature, that it is hard for me to remember that we are reading the earliest (that we have) development of drama in the West. We don't know what easrlier plays that didn't survive they were leaning on, but the whole development of Western theater starts here, with these plays that we are reading. They are embedded deep in our literature.

I was very struck by this in Ginny's quote: ""Sophocles turned tragedy inward upon the principal actors, and drama becomes drama of characters. His plays may open with public scenes, but, as they progress, the interest focuses hard on the hero. Agamemnon is a play about the Trojan War, but Antigone is not a play about  the Theban War, though that lies in the background."

Agammemnon is a play about the Trojan war. Aesculus took a simple story of infidelity and murder frrom Homer and fleshed it out to ask questions about justice and the human condition.

Where is justice here?

[JoanK]

GINNY: we stop when Clytemnestra starts talking to Cassandra. She has already gone into the palace with Ag and comes back out. is that where you are? It's a little bit past halfway.

Where are the rest of you? Do you all like Sophicles better?

[PatH]

Here's a bunch of trivia.

To add to Jude's table of dates:

Aeschylus: 525-456  the Oresteia: 458

Sophocles: 497-405  Antigone: 441

In addition to being a playwright, Aeschylus fought both at Marathon and Salamis, the big battles of his time.

According to my kooky website, once Sophocles started using a third actor, Aeschylus thought it was a good idea, and would do so too, but very sparingly and for very dramatic moments.  That explains something that puzzled me.  When Agamemnon arrives in his chariot, Cassandra is in it too.  That's a third actor.  But she doesn't speak while Clytemnestra and Ag are both still on stage, so I assumed that she wasn't really in the chariot until an actor slipped back in.

The Oresteia is the only complete trilogy we have from this time.  Antigone is grouped with two other plays that tell other parts of the story, but they weren't written at the same time or performed together.

[Frybabe]

JoanK, I am a little past your marker. I am in the middle of Cassandra's speech/prophecy bit.

PatH, I will have to read Agamemnon's arrival again. I thought my translation (Murray) said that she was in the chariot just behind his.

[Babi]

 These two lines struck a chord with me, for some reason. The herald says, “Little I thought
here in this Argive earth to die and in dear hands be laid to rest.”    It’s something I imagine
every soldier who finds himself in a foreign war must feel.  As with the watchman,  we are
treated to a bit on insight into the thoughts and feelings of the minor characters.  Most of us,
I imagine, can better relate to them.
  I also could relate to the lines “Old age is ever young enough to learn.”    We’re proof of
that, aren’t we?

  Then, Clytemnestra’s last words before going back into the palace:  “Delight from other
men and ill-report Are strange to me, as strange as tempered steel.”   Considering that we
know she is no stranger to ‘delight from other men’,  the reference to the ‘tempered steel’
is definitely ominous.

 I believe Clytemnestra’s reappearance just before the words commencing in line 750 are
important to the drama of the play.  It is at that point that the chorus at begins to speak of a
‘tale of old time’ that includes the lines: “It is only deeds unholy that increase, fruitful in in offspring of the same breed as its fathers.”    We hear the echo of that in Shakespeare:
“The evil that men do lives after them; the  good is oft interred with their bones.“  The stage is being set for Clytemnestra’s revenge on Agamemnon for his ‘unholy deed’.

    This drama is highlighting another old question.  Is vengeance truly justice?  Aeschylus
speaks of Justice leading “to the end appointed”.  But vengeance begets vengeance, which leads to further vengeance.   We have today entire nations still warring, after centuries, in vengeance upon one another.  This Greek notion of justice appears to be centered on the
punishment of vengeful gods.  Again, do you suppose, the customs of a people made a feature
of their gods?

[PatH]

The herald's return home is touching.  Notice what the chorus says then; that it would be good to die now, with a hint of "before things get worse".

[PatH]

    This drama is highlighting another old question.  Is vengeance truly justice?  Aeschylus
speaks of Justice leading “to the end appointed”.  But vengeance begets vengeance, which leads to further vengeance. 

I think you've put your finger on a crucial point of the play.  It's explored here, but we don't get a final answer yet.

[JudeS]

Vengeance is not Justice in my opinion.

It is private retribution for a real or imagined offense.
 Satisfying a private need  is helpful to the person  who wishes to get "payback" for suffering of some type.
No one knows  how that ac of vengeance will end or reverberate in the future.
Because of this deep primitive need to return blow for blow, civilization has made courts of law and lawyers and judges etc.

Sometimes the need for vengeance is so deep that the person doesn't think of the consequences or , at the moment, care.

This need for vengence is probably the most popular theme of books, plays, and movies.

[JoanK]

JUDES "This drama is highlighting another old question.  Is vengeance truly justice?  Aeschylus
speaks of Justice leading “to the end appointed”.  But vengeance begets vengeance, which leads to further vengeance.

And "Because of this deep primitive need to return blow for blow, civilization has made courts of law and lawyers and judges etc."

You have hit on  just the points I've been thinking of. In reading "The Story of Civilization", one point Durant makes is that civilizations go through stages: first people use private justice, but as Jude points out, that leads to an endless cycle. Then later societies realize this and institute courts and laws to settle the matter once and for all.

I haven't read the rest of this trilogy yet, but I think that's where it's going: toward the rule of law.

My TV station is airing a version of The Hatfields and MaCoys later. Very relevant.

[JoanK]

Aesculus says than man learns by suffering. Do you agree? This could almost be the motto for Sophocles later plays: Oedipus, Creon, and perhaps Antigone all learn by making mistakes and suffering for them.

Does this fit with your own experience (less violently and  dramatically, I hope)? 

[JudeS]

Dear Bookies
I am getting a houseful of guests (In-laws from Vermont) tomorrow. They are staying through Sunday night. I'll be back with you Monday or Tuesday.

[Babi]

 I agree with you, JUDE, as I'm sure most of us moderns would. To the ancient
Greeks, however, it appears to be an ordnance of the gods. They were a vengeful
lot. In fact, in many cases, it appeared that such retribution was commanded.

Oedipus, Creon, and perhaps Antigone all learn by making mistakes and suffering
for them.

  JOAN, your statement caught my attention and I had to wonder. Where
is the benefit of 'learning from your mistakes' if we die because of them? We
can never apply what we've learned or pass it on to others. 

 I'm sure y'all noticed...  when the chorus wants to hear more details of the storm, the herald protests that it is not fitting to ’mar a day of praise with voice of evil tidings’, but after suitable protest proceeds to do so anyway.
 
Do the rest of you find Agamemnon’s response to Clytemnestra’s greeting as
arrogant and belittling as I did?

 

[Frybabe]

Do the rest of you find Agamemnon’s response to Clytemnestra’s greeting as
arrogant and belittling as I did?

Yes, Babi, I did. You would think that after ten years he would expect his wife to give him an emotional welcome and thanksgiving for his safe return. I got the impression that he was saying that it was unseemly for a woman to show her emotions in public (unless, of course, it was in mourning for the dead). It seems a lot like, "Get a hold of yourself; you are making a public spectacle of yourself." What a jerk!

[PatH]

Come to think of it, he acts almost as if he knows what she is planning.  He speaks to the chorus, then looks at Clytemnestra and says

"Victory, you have sped my way before,
now speed me to the last."

Nothing more, until after her speech  (I wonder if it was actually out of line, as he says)  when he says it's too long and he would prize praise if it came from others.  He's right to try to avoid the carpet, though; that's tempting fate.

[PatH]

Oh, and he ends up with "by the way, this is my new mistress.  Take good care of her."

[PatH]

Are we ready to move on?  We can still put in anything we have left to say about the first half, though.

Judy, thanks for letting us know you'll be tied up.  You can catch us up later.

[PatH]

Cassandra's prophecy is sort of tough going.  She sees the past as well as the future, and when she comes to Agamemnon's palace she is overwhelmed with the feeling of the whole sorry, bloody past of the house of Atreus as well as what she sees is about to happen.  And she shifts back and forth in time as she tells it all.

Here's the background.  The house of Atreus had long been accursed because of the vile behavior of their ancestor Tantalus.  (He killed his own son and served him as a sacrifice to the gods in a deliberate act of impiety.)  Atreus, father of Agamemnon, had a brother Thyestes.  Thyestes seduced Atreus' wife.  As revenge, Atreus murdered Thyestes' sons, invited Thyestes to a feast, and served him bits of his children in the stew.  Thyestes didn't manage to take revenge on his brother, who was king, but his surviving son was Aegisthus (the one now co-habiting with Clytemnestra), who thus has a grudge against Atreus' children.

Atreus' sons were Agamemnon and Menelaus.

So there is a long family history of wrongs and revenge, curses and bad behavior.

[Babi]

Despite the title, Agamemnon has the briefest role in this play.  Cassandra and Clytemnestra
are the most prominent speakers, by far. 

   Cassandra’s prophetic voice was still with her.  I had to smile when I read the lines from
Chorus: “When did a prophet’s voice issue in happiness? “   I remembered a time during a church study, when people were saying how wonderful it would be if a true prophet came and spoke to us.  My comment was “Be careful what you wish for.”  Then I went on to ask them to
think of the occasions when a prophet arose in Israel.  It was always when the people were
wandering off track and there were problems all through the land.  Then a prophet would
come to give them h___!    The prophets could have promises of good as well, but always contingent on the people repenting and returning to the laws of their faith.  Prophets were not sent to tell everyone how great they were doing.
   
  I am puzzled that the chorus found Cassandra’s predictions so hard to understand. I don’t
see how she could have been much clearer short of naming the culprit.  ‘Mate of his bed and
board, she is a snare of slaughter”  And, “See how the bull is captured.  She wraps him in the
robe, the horned trap, then strikes.”    What I did not understand was why, out of all the
horrors Cassandra describes,  she seems so offended by the fact that a woman has murdered a man!  “So dead to shame!”
 Clytemnestra defends her action strongly.  “For if due offerings were his to drink, then those
were justly his, and more than just. With bitter tears he filled the household bowl, now he
himself has drained it and is gone.”

[PatH]

  I am puzzled that the chorus found Cassandra’s predictions so hard to understand. I don’t
see how she could have been much clearer short of naming the culprit.

They can't believe a woman could or would do such a thing.

[PatH]

Agamemnon's greeting to Clytemnestra is even more snippy in the plain language of the online translation:

Daughter of Leda, guardian of my home, your speech was, like my absence, far too long. Such praise as I deserve should come from others. Then it is worthwhile.

[JoanK]

Whatta guy!

If you were Clytemnestra, what would you have done?

[Babi]

'Willful disbelief', I believe that's called, PAT. It's either that, or perhaps
just Cassandra's curse. No one believes her warnings, no matter how accurate she
turns out to be.

 What would I do if I were Clytemnestra, JOAN?  I think I would smile inwardly, thinking of
how much pleasure it was going to be to kill the arrogant ....well, I won't say that.  

 The illogic in ‘the will of the gods”  confronts me once again.  If Zeus “causeth all and worketh
all; for what without his will befalleth mortals, and what here was not sent from heaven?”So,  if all this has been the will of Zeus,  why is Agamemnon’s son charged with the responsibility of killing his mother in vengeance for his father?  Is this not flouting the will of the gods?
  But then, why am I surprised?  Humanity continues to be able to construe the tenets of their
faith to suit themselves, sadly.

[mabel1015j]

I have been reading your posts, altho not contributing i find it very interesting.

Babi asked about the status of women a while back, i haven't really read about Greek culture since i taught a Humanities course in the 60s, but i remembered that women lived in a separate world from men, as was true in almost every culture. They were treated as property and like children in many cases, not allowed into the public sphere. The women in the literature seem to be "living" in a slightly better situation. I knew, what w/ the interest in women's history since the 60s that there must be newer information, so i finally looked for some sites today.

You may find this material interesting. The first is from Pace University, but is not from a professor of ancient history, but it appears to be accurate. I know nothing about the authors of the other two sites, but again the info appears to be reasonable.

http://webpage.pace.edu/nreagin/F2004WS267/AnnaCho/finalHISTORY.html

http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/ancientchix/

http://www.womenintheancientworld.com/greece.htm

[mabel1015j]

Here is a trustworthy site and it has basically the same information! But w/ some nice pictures.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/wmna/hd_wmna.htm

[JoanK]

THAT'S GREAT! Thanks for doing that research for us. Here are some of my reactions.

Of the sites above, I found this the most interesting, because it talks a little about class differences.

http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/ancientchix/

Apparently, upper class women were almost completely confined to the home, only allowed to leave it in limited ways. But the site above says that women in poorer households worked alongside the men in stalls, etc. in society. Such work was not respected: only in the role of housewife were women respected. (I think of Odysseus' wife, sitting and weaving for 20 years, waiting for him to return).

The exception was that women had important roles in many ceremonies (such as religious ceremonies and funerals).

While respectable women were confined to the home, prostitutes and courtisans were not. The latter were called the hetaerae class. They were more educated and provided intellectual companionship as well as sexual services to men, and accompanied them to social gatherings.

Several of the sites note the contrast between the status of women in the society and the status and reverence of the female goddesses,  such as Athena, Artemis etc. Dozens of denigrating remarks about women are quoted from Greek literature (such as we've already seen), but female goddesses were worshipped and held in great respect.

Of course in Christian literature, we have the contrast between the reverance of the Virgin Mary and many anti-women sentiments uttered by revered figures.

[Babi]

Interesting sites, JEAN.  They do confirm the impressions I've gotten from the
two dramas we've read so far.  We can see an example of the role of women in religious
rites in Clytemnestras immediate lighting of the altar fires on receiving news of the Greek
victory.
   As this portion of the trilogy draws to a close, we are finally introduced to Aegisthus.
  Ugh!  Aegisthus is a really nasty character.  I don’t know how Clytemnestra could stand
him.  And in the honored Greek tradition, he rehearses the wrongs done by Agamemnon’s
father, as “the sin for which this man lies here”.    There is no justice in murdering the son
for the sins of the father; that’s just blood-for-blood vengeance.
  Then he goes on to rant about how he is going to rule the country from now on...with
arrogance and tyranny!  Clytemnestra was at least able to dissuade him from commencing
his reign with the punishment of the chorus, just to show everyone who was boss.

[PatH]

Petty and vengeful.  The men don't come off well in this play.

What about Clytemnestra? is she going to try to heal Argos?  She says

"Fathers of Argos, turn for home before you act
and suffer for it.  What we did was destiny.
If we could end the suffering, how we would rejoice."

And her last lines:

          "...You and I have the power now.
We will set the house in order once and for all."