Women in Greek Drama

[PatH]

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WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA

Greek Theater at Epidauros

           Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.

         So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!

Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
May 31-June 15
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides
June 16-?

Antigone Online
Agamemnon Online
Iphigenia in Verse
Iphigenia in Prose


Iphigenia

Schedule:
June 16-? First half--until the point where Orestes and Plyades are talking about Orestes' being sacrificed.
   Orestes, knowing he's going to die, says "the Oracle of Phoebus is useless to me now, for look the lady comes."
   Then Iphegenia and the chorus return

Questions:

1. How does Euripides style differ from that of Sophocles and Aeschylus?  What other ways is he different?

2. Why does Ipheginia think that Orestes is dead? What do you think her dream meant?

3. Is there a difference in the attitudes toward the gods and omens in this play as against the earlier ones we've read? If so, what indications do you see of it?

4. How do you think all these Greek slave women got there?

5. Are there traces of a sense of humor here? Was there any humor in the earlier plays? This play is neither a tragedy nor a comedy. Are there other such plays in the Greek repertoire?

6. How is the fact that Iphigenia takes the lead in rescuing them fitted into traditional women's roles? In general, what are some of the ways the playwrights we read manage to present strong women and still maintain stereotypical views of women?

7. It took two goddesses and one human woman (herself) to save Ipheginia, not to mention two heroes and a ship. Could you have done it more economically?

DLs: JoanK and PatH

[PatH]

Babi, I bet you have the same book of ten plays I found in my library--translated by Moses Hadas and John McLean?  The introduction has lots of good stuff.

[JudeS]

I too have "Euripedes Ten Plays" from the library but the translation is by Paul Roche.
Here is a fun fact:
For the play Iphigenia at Aulis (not Tauris) Euripedes received (posthumously) his fifth First Prize...13 for Aeschylus and 18 for Sophocles.
In the Intro Roche says that  EUripedes showed that women were a power in society. He takes more care in his delineation of their characters than he does those of the men.

[Babi]

That's the one, PAT. I just scanned the intro. to get a bit of background on Euripides
and some insight into Iphigenia. Glad I did.

  He does, doesn't he, JUDE.  Another big difference I seeing in Euripides, that excepting the
chorus,  the older tragedians gave their actors much shorter dialogue.  I read a very long
speech by Iphigenia, amazed that the actor could memorize all that.
 I was also staggered to learn that the goddess had rescued Iphigenia in order to install her
as a priestess in her temple at Taurus, with the job of 'sanctifying' any strangers who showed
up,  for torture and sacrifice!  Talk about a mixed blessing.

[PatH]

Hadas' introduction is useful.  I liked his remark that Euripides criticized the rigid rules of his society by having his characters follow them, leading to results that didn't seem quite fair or right, leaving the audience feeling uneasy.  He advocated for society's underdogs, including women, bastards, and barbarians.

[JoanK]

"Talk about a mixed blessing."

Yeah, she's alive, but what a job! No wonder she's unhappy.

" Euripides criticized the rigid rules of his society by having his characters follow them, leading to results that didn't seem quite fair or right, leaving the audience feeling uneasy."

Let's look for instances of that. Do we see cracks in the belief system here?

[JoanK]

The notes also say that the Romans liked Euripedes better than Aesculus or Sophecles. As we read him, lets see if we can guess why.

[Babi]

  Definitely some cracks in the belief system here.  Which would be one reason Euripides was
more popular with the audience than with the judges and sponsors.  After all, traditionally the
tragedies were performed to honor the gods.

   I think Euripides style is much more to the modern taste.  Two story lines developing,
less idealized characters,  suspense.  Especially, suspense.  In the earlier tragedies, the
audience already knew the story well.
   Orestes cries out to Phoebus (Apollo)  We learn that ‘Phoebus’ has sent him to this dangerous country to the temple of Apollo’s sister Artemis, to “take from there the goddess’ image
which men say fell into this temple here from heaven”.  Sounds like the arrival of Iphigenia,
doesn’t it?  Is Apollo sending him to rescue his sister, or is he planning to destroy them both.
I am inclined, after reading two of these dramas, to expect the worst.

 

[PatH]

Babi, I wonder if our characters are caught in the middle of a godly sibling fight.  Orestes, under the domination of Apollo, is sent to steal Artemis' image.  Iphigenia has a dream in which the last pillar of the ruined house of Atreus turns into her brother, who she then anoints for sacrifice.  She interprets this as meaning that Orestes is dead, but maybe it's her marching orders from Artemis to sacrifice him.  We'll have to see who the gods help or hinder in the next half.

[PatH]

Apollo and Artemis are not only siblings, they're twins.  Not all twins act like that.  I've never ever asked anyone to steal one of JoanK's images.

[JoanK]

Thank you, Pat! I'll return your image tomorrow.

[JudeS]

I finished the play. It was so much easier to read than the other two.
It would make a great movie since it has so many exciting moments and then, best of all, a happy ending.
I did wonder about Iphigenia saying:

"A man's death is a family's loss, a woman's is no matter".

I can't tell you what line it is since this translation does not number the lines.
How ever the next line after the above is:

Orestes:I'll not be my Mother's murderer then yours. Her blood is enough.
 
I also wonder about the translator saying that
Euripedes was misunderstood in his time.

[PatH]

I did wonder about Iphigenia saying:

"A man's death is a family's loss, a woman's is no matter".

I did too.  She says this as an argument for Orestes escaping even if she has to stay behind and die.  The daughters of a house would, of course, marry away from the house into others and become part of them.  Athena makes a similar argument defending Orestes in his trial in the Oresteia--that the father is more important than the mother.  Aeschylus means it seriously, but I'm not sure whether Euripides does.

[kidsal]

The third maiden explains that she was captured in war and sold to be an exile in Tauris. 
The great friendship between Orestes and Pylades -- both willing to die for the other - finally work out a solution. 
Like the line:  If a man is sorry for himself, he doubles death.

[Babi]

PAT & JOAN...   You two are the images of perfect twins.

  You can hear echoes of that in Shakespeare, can't you, KIDSAL.  "The coward dies many times
before his death..."   I agree with JUDE that this could make a great movie. 

  The chorus ( of maidens..an interesting change) reinforce my dread of what
Apollo intends.  “Such was the affliction on affliction that the Golden Lamb
brought on these halls,  and death on death, woe on woe.  Retribution for the Tantalids that
died of old works itself out against the house”.   These ancient gods really held on to their
grudges.  If anyone offended them, they would wipe out the offender and all his family to
the last generation!
  I can see where Euripides could have been misunderstood in his time.  He is going against some
of the rules of traditional tragedy.  A perfect example is Euripides shocking disrespect for the gods.  Iphigenia, with no one nearby to hear, says, “The goddess equivocates. I like it not. If any mortal stain his hand with bloodshed, if any hand touch a woman in child-bed, or a dead body, she keeps him from her altars and counts him unclean. But she takes pleasure in sacrificial murder.”     However, she backtracks on that,  possibly due to her own painful and awkward position. She closes her soliloquy with the words, “It is the men of this land, I believe,  being themselves murderers, who lay their on guilt on the gods.  No god, I am sure, can be evil.” 
That, I suspect, is Euripides giving himself a way out of any accusations of blasphemy.
    Actually, I have had to come to much the same conclusion myself.  I could not believe in
a God who would cause evil things to happen for his own vengeance or pleasure.  It seems
clear to me that people act according to their own natures, and justify their uglier acts in the
name of some ‘noble’ cause.  Or perhaps simply what they consider realism.

[JudeS]

I know that we have concentrated on tragedy in this  discussion. However the Greeks also wrote Comedies.
In the fascinatng book "Ancient Greek Literature in its Living Context" by H.C.Baldry there are ssme great examples of this type of writing.
I thought you all would enjoy this bit from "The Birds" by Aristophanes:

Truly to be clad in feathers is the very best of things,
Only fancy, dear spectators, had you each a brace of wings,
Never need you, tired and hungry, at a Tragic Chorus stay,
You would likely, when it bored you, spread your wings and fly away,
Back returning, after luncheon, to enjoy our Comic Play.

[PatH]

  I could use those wings sometimes.

When we were trying to decide which plays to read, I read Lysistrata, a combination of comedy and strong women, but it was waaaay too raunchy to discuss here.

Euripides writes in the tragic format, but his themes are more down to earth, and many of his plays have happy endings, even if he has to drag in a god to make it happen.

[JoanK]

JUDE: that's hilarious!

In my translation, Iph is even clearer that she doesn't believe that Artemis wants these human sacrifices:

"No, I believe that the people of this land
beinng murderers themselves
have foisted their murderous instincts on the godess,
I refuse to think that any god is evil."

This is a very interesting statement. The Athenians can't object, because he is only criticizing some foreigners. (My prologue says it's thought that the Taurans were relatives of the Trojans, the Greeks' enemy). But look how subversive of the whole system of jealous gods and ritual sacrifice it is.

There are other pokes at the system. When Iph hears that Orestes is alive:

Iph: (talking of the dream that Orestes was dead) Dreams, dreams, goodbye! You were all a lie.

Orestes: And so are the gods-- no better than dreams on wings, and yet they say so wise!"

I can't imagine either of our other playrights saying that. As a sociologist, I wonder if there were changes in social thinking that made such statements acceptable. Or was Euripides a rebel -- as far as I know, he didn't get in any trouble, although he didn't win as many prizes as the other two.

[Babi]

PAT, you recall to mind an occasion when my husband invited my parents to dinner at a
restaurant that featured entertainment with medieval skits. The 'skit' was so raunchy I
spent the entire evening red-faced and hot with embarassment.
  I was interested in tracing the route of Orestes and Pylades as described by the chorus.
Phineus was a Greek mythological king of Thrace. Thrace, in those times was the Balkans,
which ran South to the Aegean Sea.  Just across the Aegean from Greece is Turkey. 
I also found that Turkey has a famous 'white beach’.  Unfortunately, I did not find a
map of Turkey that gave me enough detail to locate the town nearest the beach.  Still,
it does appear that this savage land that sacrificed strangers was on the coast of Turkey.

  More on what Kidsal was saying...    “I do not count him wise who, condemned to death, seeks by lamentation to blunt the horror of extinction, or, when death is at hand and all hope of rescue is gone, tries to move pity.  He contrives two evils out of one; he proves himself a fool and dies just the same.”    Great lines.  Yeah, this would make a good film.  Who would we
choose to play Iphigenia and Orestes, I wonder?

 

[JoanK]

I'm seeing a lot more in this play than I did when i proposed it, thanks to you all. Thats the beauty of these discussions.

Lets read the rest of the play for tomorrow, if you haven't already.

[Babi]

  Hmm, everybody else must be busy reading, JOAN.  It's me again already.

  Okay, so Orestes was acquitted of guilt at the holy tribunal of Zeus, in a tie vote, thanks to the testimony of Apollo and Athena’s vote for acquittal.  I found a description of the trial
elsewhere that states Athena persuaded the Erinyes (the Furies from the Underworld)
to accept this decision.   For 'Iphigenia’, however, Euripides has resurrected the pursuit.
According to one source, the story was changed to allow some Erinyes to disagree with
the decision and continue to hound him.  If they required persuasion by Athena to begin
with, it seems apparent that these Underworld spirits were not subject to the decisions of
the “Holy tribunal’ of Zeus??  The lines of godly authority and power are obscure,  at least to me.
  Orestes: “If a man is acting and eager, the divine power is more effective, one may presume.”Is this more of Euripides tongue-in-cheek irony?  It has definitely survived, wherever it originated.  “God helps those who help themselves.”   Who was it said that?
 

[JoanK]

PatH says that Euripides' other play about Iph satirizes the heroes of the Trojan War. And it won a prize! I wonder if we've wandered into the Greek equivilant of the 60s in the US, when everything in society was questioned and criticized?

Well, not everything. It's a goddess who decides everything at the end.

[PatH]

Euripides seems to regard the gods with less than perfect awe, but he's really gunning for Apollo.  Look what he has the chorus say.  This is after Iphigenia has led the supposed purification procession off, and Thoas has re-entered the temple.  They describe Phoebus (Apollo) as an infant, killing the monster serpent that infested the Delphic oracle and taking it over.  But this displaced the child of Earth, who retaliated by giving mortals prophetic dreams, thus ruining Apollo's business.

"Swiftly then did the king rush to Olympus and twined his baby fingers about the throne of Zeus and begged him to deliver his Pythian home from the fury of Earth.  Zeus smiled when he saw that the child had lost no time in coming to claim a worship so productive of wealth."

Zeus stopped the dreams and gave Loxias (Apollo) his privileges back.

[JudeS]

Pat
Are you going to do Author,Author?
If you are too busy I'll do it.
Let me know.

[PatH]

Jude, if you've got one, I'd appreciate it.  I seem to be having trouble coming up with anything.

[Babi]

 I was shocked to discover that the ‘madness’ which fell on Orestes after killing his
mother led to his also murdering not only her lover but all of their families within
his reach, including some children.  Now he is here because he believes if he takes
the idol as directed, he will be cured of his madness.  He seems remarkably calm and 
sane for one still in the grip of a murderous madness.
 The name Loxias suddenly appeared in the story as the one who ‘ordained’ that
Orestes must complete this task.  I find that Loxias is a name for Apollo as the god
of ‘incomprehensible oracular sayings’.  Oh, great.   That’s so reassuring.
   I was startled when Orestes casually asked whether they should kill the king as part of their
escape plan.  I was even more startled when Iphigenia replied, “O horrible!  Visitors kill their host?”    Host?   Capturing strangers to sacrifice to the local God is very far from the
accepted visitor/host relationship!
  Well, I can't complain this play is boring, can I? 

[PatH]

"Visitors kill their host?"  I wonder if that's more of Euripides' irony.  But maybe Iphigenia regards him as her host; he's given her a place as his priestess, never mind that neither of them asked for it, it was all Artemis' doing.  Babi, if you ever come to visit me, I promise not to offer you up as a sacrifice to Artemis.

"God of incomprehensible oracular sayings".  That really cracked me up; it's so true.  Do you remember Terry Pratchett's goddess of things that get stuck in drawers and keep them from opening?  Her mantra is "I could close the drawer all right when I put it in".

[JudeS]

I had to return my book to the library but if I remember correctly Orestes calls his behavior "Fits of madness".
He tries to explain it by saying that when he is sane he regrets what he has done in his "madness".

The only real Psychological disease in which this happens is "Multiple Personality Disorder". A good example is Dr Jekyl and Mister Hyde.
It is a very rare but real disease. I think unless you see that point where one person becomes another totally differnt person it is hard to believe. However once you are present with that person and observe it you know it really happens and that one personality may or may not know what the other is doing. Certainly there is no control of the "other".

[PatH]

That's how it looks in the play, Jude, a sudden change.  Pylades is talking to the herdsmen when suddenly Orestes starts screaming about the dragon, and attacking the cows.  Eventually he comes to his senses, not seeming to know what just happened, and defends himself appropriately from the attacking herdsmen.  None of the herdsmens stones hit home--maybe the furies are preserving their victims for more torment.  I thought of berserkers, too.  Is there an explanation for them?

[JoanK]

Perhaps we're seeing here the greek attempt to explain mentsal illnesses where the person sees things. The furies or some other supernatural beings are there.

[JudeS]

Berserkers are named for a 9th century Norse tribe.
The behavior of going beserk in our time may often be attributed to the ingestion of hallucigenic materials such as
hallucigenic mushrooms or massive amounts of Alcohol or PCP.

The term berserkers used for soldiers in the Vietnam war may have been an overdose ofAdrenalin inducing
opiods. It was also (in the Vietnam War) considered a state of hyperarousal as part of the PTSD cycle. It is considered
the heart of Psychological and Psychophysiological injuries of the mind.  Not evry soldier or person with PTSD goes through this part of the cycle. However when you hear about mild mannered soldiers returning from Iraq and beating their wives this is the culprit.

[PatH]

What is Euripides' attitude toward women?  I had been told he thought poorly of them, but I can't really see that.  In fact I have trouble figuring out what he really thinks about anything.  He is so full of irony and understated subversive digs, all of them in an unfamiliar cultural context, that it's easy to miss nuances.  I sometimes wonder if I'm doing the equivalent of reading "Brutus is an honorable man" and thinking that means Shakespeare approves of Brutus.

What do you think?

[PatH]

A couple of dialog exchanges that amused me:  when Iphigenia is reading her letter aloud to Pylaades, Orestes, stunned, keeps trying to interrupt her with the truth and she keeps shushing him.  The same thing happens when the mesenger comes to king Thoas with the news of Iphigenia's escape.  He keeps rudely ignoring the king's questions and getting back to what he has to say.  I'm surprised you can talk to a king like that.

[Babi]

 Oh, gee, PAT, thanks so much. I don't remember that Pratchett bit and I do love him.
Do you by any chance remember which book that was in?

  Meanwhile, I found something to smile about.  In the dialog between Iphigenia and Troas, Iphigenia speaks of acting for ‘the friends to whom I owe most”.  Troas immediately responds, “You speak of me.  How rightly does the whole city admire you.”    The smug assumption of the royal male. 
  Troas does not seem to command a great deal of respect even from his own servants.  The
messenger who comes to tell him Orestes and Ephigena are escaping is bluntly impatient with
the king’s interruption.  “Forget that and listen to me. Listen closely to what I say and think of
some method of pursuit to overtake the strangers.”  Sounds like the messnger is giving the orders here, and none too politely.

[PatH]

No, I don't remember which book, and it's annoying.  Pratchett's wording was a little snappier and funnier.

[JoanK]

Considering that having three characters was relatively new, I think Euripides does a great job with it in the scene where Ip is reading the letter to Orestes aloud to Pylades, and keeps shutting Orestes up. I'll beeet the audience howled, when, after all that buildup of oaths etc., Pylades simply handed the letter to Orestes.

[Babi]

  That was a good scene, wasn't it, JOAN?  I have to agree,  Euripides is much more fun than
than Aeschylus and Sophocles.
  I see that Iphigenia is the master strategist is plotting their escape.  She does seem to think
of everything. I'm quite impressed.

  We're getting close to the close, to the intervention of the goddess Athena. Very handy, that ‘deus ex machina’.  Of course we’d howl with scorn at any writer who tried
that now, but I suppose it was quite satisfactory in those times.

[PatH]

Very handy, that ‘deus ex machina’.  Of course we’d howl with scorn at any writer who tried
that now, but I suppose it was quite satisfactory in those times.

One of my introductions said that Euripides used it so much that other playwrights could no longer get away with it.

[PatH]

I have to agree,  Euripides is much more fun
than Aeschylus and Sophocles.

Aeschylus and Sophocles have all the nobility and elemental emotions and suffering, but Euripides has all the snappy lines.

These are the three great Greek tragedians.  How do they compare?  Which ones do you like?

[Babi]

One of my introductions said that Euripides used it so much that other playwrights could no longer get away with it.

 

  Euripides is definitely my favorite of the three.  More entertaining, more subtlety and humor.

  I do want to comment on Athena.   I trust...and hope...that the honors to the goddess in commemoration of her new temple are symbolic.  That placing 'the knife to the neck of some man’ and let him let blood  refers to a small symbolic cut and not human sacrifices. 

   I’m almost afraid to ask, but does anyone know exactly what the ‘garments of fine-spun web’  are, that ‘women leave in their homes when they give up the ghost in childbirth’?