Women in Greek Drama

[PatH]

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WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA

Greek Theater at Epidauros

           Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.

         So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!

Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides

Antigone Online
Agamemnon Online


Antigone

Schedule:
May 15-21 First half (Through scene with CREON, ANTIGONE, and ISMENE.
            Until "The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace. Creon remains")
May 22-28 Second half

Questions for the first half:

1) Antigone and Ismene are opposites in bravery and defiance.  Why?  In which sister do you see yourself?

2) In its first appearance, what is the chorus describing in fanciful terms? Who or what is the "he" referred to?

3) What sort of ruler will Creon be?  What clues do we have?

4) Where do we see evidence for the powerlessness and low status of women?

5) Both Creon and Antigone defend their positions in terms of high ethical values. What are these values? Which do you find most compelling? Would compromise have been possible? Why or why not?

6) Fagles points out that over the millennia over which this play has been  produced, the opinion of the audience would have changed as to who was right: Antigone or Creon. Do you think that opinion would have changed over our lifetime? In different parts of the world?

7) Have you ever been in a situation where two deeply-held ethical principles were in conflict? How was it resolved?  

DLs: JoanK and PatH

[straudetwo]

JoanK,
 
We are (aren't we?) still in the prediscussion phase.
What would you like us to do to prepare for the reading of the play itself come May 15th  ?

[JoanK]

Traude:Sorry for the delay in responding. the discussion doesn't start until May 15th to allow the Dickens people to finish. But there is a lot of background we can work on: conventions of the Greek theater, the background of the stories, etc. I will be postin material after May 1st, but you all feel free to post whatever you know, too.

[JudeS]

Pat
Just saw your question about Oregon.  We will be in Oregon at the Ashland Shakespeare Festival from the 8th to the 13th.
Portland is at the other end of the state.
Actually we will be in Portland thia summer as well. August 1 to 6.
Too bad we can't meet up.
It would be lovely to do that someday.

[PatH]

Too bad, Judy.  Since you've already met JoanK, you would have a matched set.  I get to Portland a lot to see daughters and grandchildren, but don't know if August is in the cards.  Maybe someday.

[JudeS]

Well Pat,
If by some chance you are in Portland Aug 1-6
 please let me know beforehand so we can meet up.
This is a reunion of folks we were in Israel with. There will be lots of free time to do other activities away from the group.

If not perhaps you will make a road trip from Oregon to L.A. and can stop and visit us on the way.

[JoanK]

Some features of the Greek theater need explanation. It's interesting to me that it developed as part of a religious ritual: the festival of Dionysis, (called the Dionesia). The first actor to present a play was Thespis, the origin of our word thespian. But by the time the plays we are reading were written, a drama competition had developed as an important part of the festival. Three playwrights were chosen to compete, and each presented three plays. Judges gave the prize to the plays they considered the best. The three playwrights that we will be reading all competed in this festival, and all won at one time or another. At first, only tragedies were presented --- later comedies as well.

(Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_theater)
 
 
 

[JoanK]

One of the features that seems odd to us today is that all the players wore masks. The source cited above gives several reasons for this. masks may have been part of the worship of Dionysis, and then were extended to plays. But they served a practical purpose as well -- being easier to see than the actors real faces and bringing the drama home with their exaggerated emotions. They could also represent changes such as blindness.

[PatH]

Looking at the picture in the heading, I can well believe how useful masks would be.  The people standing on the stage look like little specks.  Anything that would help tell them apart would be good.

[BarbStAubrey]

Joan are you saying that each actor had several masks that showed a different facial expression to show various emotions?

[PatH]

The masks were also used to tell different characters apart.  There were at most three actors.  (At first only one, then, big innovation, two, and finally three.)  So each actor had to play several parts, and he would have a different mask for each character.

As in Shakespeare's time, all the actors were male.  When playing women, they would wear wooden "padding" to imitate the female shape.

[PatH]

These masks are from a later date--Roman mosaic--but they're kind of fun.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ok where are we with plays during this time of Greek history - I was under the impression that one to three people read or recited the play with a chorus behind that acted almost like a drone with sounds or repetition of a few lines, something like a bag pipe has a drone sound behind the melody - y'all are suggesting something different - I think you are saying there were many actors and some of the actors played several characters and the masks distinguished characters - I am still confused I thought the masks were showing various emotions - please can you clear this up for me or direct me to a good site where the history of the Greek play and use of actors and the History of masks used by the Greeks is explained.

[JoanK]

There could be many members of the chorus. But apparently, there were only a maximum of three actors in the play. So each actor could play several parts, as is common in repertory theater today. When an actor left the stage as one person and came back as another, he would wear a differant mask.

The masks would tell the audience whether the character was a man or woman. The examples we've seen certainly show emotion, but whether the actor would change masks to show changes in emotion, I don't know. I haven't been able to find any reference to that.

[PatH]

Ok where are we with plays during this time of Greek history - I was under the impression that one to three people read or recited the play with a chorus behind that acted almost like a drone with sounds or repetition of a few lines, something like a bag pipe has a drone sound behind the melody - y'all are suggesting something different -

I think we're really saying pretty much the same thing in different words, Barb.  Up to three actors, who might play several parts each, and a chorus of a dozen or so, speaking in unison, to supply background, comment on events participate in the action, etc.  I couldn't figure out if actors changed masks to show changed emotions in the same person, which is why I sidestepped that question above.  Here are two informative links.  They overlap, but each has stuff the other doesn't.

http://www.crystalinks.com/greektheater.html

http://www3.northern.edu/wild/th100/chapt11.htm

The first explains the role of the chorus.  The second has a floor plan for a theater.

[Babi]

 PAT & JOAN, I'm about to add to your workload.    Please tell me the difference between the
strophe/antistrophe and chorus.  I know, from checking definitions, that the strophe/antistrophe
means the speaker/singers turned from side to side with each response, but they seem to be
fulfilling the same function as Chorus.  Except the characters may respond to the words of
Chorus.  Why would my translation identify them separately?

[JoanK]

Good question. Give me til tomorrow to find the answer. If anyone else knows, please come in.

[straudetwo]

Barbara,
There is a link about the Greek c chorus and I'll try to type the URL now  -- but I may not succeed   )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_chorus

Thank goodness, it worked.

[Babi]

 Thanks for the additional information on the chorus, TRAUDE.  The strophe/antistrophe movements must have been part of the 'technique' chosen in this drama. I'm hoping Joan
can find out more about when/why the switch is made to 'chorus' as though it was a different
entity.  And since the chorus is apparently there to provide background, why does a character
occasionally reply directly to 'chorus'?

 (Aren't you'all glad I decided to join in and heckle you with endless questions.  )

[PatH]

  (Aren't you'all glad I decided to join in and heckle you with endless questions.  )

Yes, actually.  It keeps things lively.

The chorus could also act as the populace, or even important characters.  In The Eumenides (it's the third of of the Oresteia trilogy; Agamemnon, which we're going to read, is the first) the chorus is the Furies themselves, who are also major characters.

[ginny]

Babi, according to the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature,

The strophe (meaning turn) in Greek lyric poetry and Latin imitation is a stanza. It was said to have derived its name from the performance of choral lyric, in which a stanza or strophe was sung as the chorus proceed in its dance in one direction, followed by a second stanza, the antistrophe, sung when the chorus turned and reversed its dance in the opposite direction. "Astrophic" composition describes extended lyric passages not written in stanza form.

In a Triad in a Greek lyric poem, a group of three stanzas, of which the first two, called strophē and antistrophē are symmetrical, i.e., correspond in metre, but the third, called the epode, has a different though related metrical form. If the poem consists of more than one triad the epodes, at least in Pindar, correspond with one another, as do all the strophes and antistrophes. This form of composition... broke the monotony of a long series of similar stanzas....

It is generally believed that lyric poetry written in triadic form was sung and danced by a chorus, whereas monodic lyric was usually sung by an individual...

That was a good question! Does this help at all?

[PatH]

Learning all this background is really going to add a lot to our enjoyment, add another dimension to our understanding.  But if anyone finds it daunting, or more work than they want to do, cheer up.  You don't have to.  These plays can stand on their own in the modern world with very little background.

I saw the Oresteia acted fifty years ago, knowing almost nothing about it, and it absolutely blew my mind.  I still remember it vividly.  I didn't have to look for the fact that the furies were the chorus, because I can still see them.  Antigone is like that too.  (I'm now reading it for the first time.)  So, although if you put more in you get more out, if you even just read the plays, you will have an unforgettable experience.

[JoanK]

Ginny and Pat: you said what I was going to say but better.

In short: "chorus" is the name for the group of actors: "strophe, antistrophe, etc." refer to the form of what they say.

[Babi]

GINNY, after reading your quote, I would suppose that the third stanza, the epode,
if identified in my translation as 'Chorus'.  The words spoken by Chorus do seem to
be in a different metrical form than those recited/sung by strophe and antistrophe.
Very helpful, yes. As PatH says, it adds so much to my enjoyment to learn new things.

[Frybabe]

My last final was yesterday. I will be all set for next week.

Thanks, all, for the interesting information about the chorus and strophe/antistrophe. I know next to nothing about Greek plays and how they were put together so I will be learning lots of new stuff.

[PatH]

Hooray!  Finals are done!  Welcome back.

[BarbStAubrey]

great - that is over with - tests and learning hummm what is there in common but that is another entirely different discussion isn't it...

OK just read in the preface of a David Feldshuh, from Cornell U, translation that in Antigone among the other chanted and sung moments there are 6 choruses with a specific tone and function for each.

A war story with images of violence and shouts of victory, celebration of mans ingenuity with warnings that could be betraying the gods, a dark prophesy,  a sensual dreamlike net of desire, suffering that demands endurance, and finally, a passionate call to Dionysis.

[Frybabe]

Yeah, Barb, like learning things I REALLY want to learn and at my own pace. Oh, like HERE!

[JoanK]

Yup!

[kidsal]

Lots of Antigone on YouTube

[JoanK]

Yes. I thought we could read it first, then see it.

[PatH]

Greek tragedies had a very specific structure, which it's useful to know.

Aristotle described the three unities (time, place, and action) in his Poetics.  He was writing later, but was analyzing the dramas we are reading.  This link, although written from a Shakespearean point of view, is short and sweet.

Three Unities

[PatH]

The plays themselves had a standard arrangement of subunits.  This link shows their arrangement.  (If I had found it sooner, it would have answered our questions about Strophe and Antistrophe.)

Typical Structure of a Greek Play

[Babi]

 I have noted in the past, with great interest, that the book of Job follows the 'rules' of a Greek
drama.  Though the writer based the 'book' on the oral tradition of the ancient story of Job,
the parallels to Greek tragedy are apparent.  There is an introduction that gives us the background and sets the stage.  The characters are limited in number, and each makes his
speeches in turn. None of the violent events take place on stage, but the audience is informed
of them by messengers.
  All of this had convinced me that while the story of Job is an ancient one, the Book of Job was
probably written after the years of the captivity, and by a person who had knowledge of Greek
dramatic forms.

[PatH]

Goodness, Babi!  I never noticed.  I'll have to reread Job.

One thing I did notice, though, is that the structure makes for good live theater--an automatically gripping setup.

[JoanK]

Ok, the discussion begins May 15th. Pat and I thought we would take two weeks with Antigone.(If this proves to be too slow or too fast, we can change). here is the schedule (it and the questions will be in the heading shortly):

May 15-21 Antigone, 1st half. Through scene with CREON, ANTIGONE, and ISMENE. Until "The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace. Creon remains"

May 22-28. Antigone, 2nd half.

[JoanK]

SUMMARY OF THE BACKGROUND TO ANTIGONE:

Antigone is the third (in terms of its story) of the three "Theban Plays" of Sophocles. Since, unlike Greek audiences, we don't already know the plot, a brief summary of the earlier plays is helpful. The names in capital letters are characters in the play Antigone or are important to it..

Oedipus was born to the then king and queen of Thebes (Laius and Jocasta). Because of a prophecy that Oedipus would kill his father, the king gave Oedipus to a shepherd to be killed. The shepherd had pity on the baby and instead gave him to the king of Corinth to raise as his own. So Oedipus grew up ignorant of his birth and true parents.

As an adult, he hears a prophecy that he will kill his father and marry his mother. He flees to avoid the possibility of it coming true. On the road, he is attacked by a traveling party, and kills them, unaware that one of them is his real father. He comes to Thebes, becomes a hero there, marries the widowed queen, (his mother, Jocasta), and becomes King of Thebes. They have four children, two boys and two girls (ANTIGONE and ISMENE).

Eventually, Oedipus learns the truth, that he has inadvertently killed his father and married his mother. Horrified, he blinds himself and renounces the throne. Jocasta kills herself. Her brother, CREON, becomes temporary king and exiles Oedipus. Oedipus becomes a wandering beggar with the help of his daughters, eventually winning the pity of the furies and dying peacefully.  

The younger of Oedipus's two sons (ETEOCLES)becomes part of Creon's court and presumably will become king,  the older (POLYNICES), feeling he should be king, flees and raises an army at Argos to attack Thebes.

 Just before our play begins the two brothers kill each other: Eteocles defending Thebes, Polynices attacking with the men from Argos. Because of their deaths, Creon will be able to claim the throne for himself. The two daughters of Oedipus, Antigone and Ismene, have returned to Creon's court: and Antigone is engaged to Creon's son, HAEMON.

[Frybabe]

I see the online link is to the translation I have by Storr. I am wondering about the new translation by Robert Bagg and James Scully. Does anyone have that? My library just happens to have an available copy. Debating on checking it out.

[PatH]

Why not?  It's sometimes useful to have more than one, and the price is right.  I haven't checked out that translation yet; because I cleaned my library out of Greek plays, I have several, and at the moment I'm working from Fagles and Kitto.

[PatH]

Where's Roshanarose?  I hope you're going to be with us, roshanarose.