Elegance of the Hedgehog ~ Muriel Barbery ~ Book Club Online ~ April 1st

[BooksAdmin]

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"Prickly and popular novel on class and culture" -    "Central to the book's appeal is the compelling voice of its main character, Renée Michel, a 54-year-old Paris apartment-building concierge who struggles to hide her self-taught erudition and cultivation from snobby, rich tenants. She disdains their élitist notions of class and social order, but she knows the residents would be outraged at discovering what a deep grasp the hired help has of art and learning. So Renée masks her intellect behind the persona expected of her lowly station." Time Magazine The second narrator in the book is the precocious 12 year old daughter of one of the tenants, who hides her intelligence  from a world she finds meaningless.  The two characters neatly mirror one another in a philosophical tale of contrasts which succeeds in resolving some issues of life and death.

Discussion Schedule: April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble pgs.17-27 April 4-10 ~ Camellias ~  pgs.31-129 (Topics for April 4) April 11-14 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-170 April 15-19 ~ Summer Rain ~ pgs.173-238 April 20-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs. 241-315 April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs. 316-325 Final Thoughts

For Your Consideration
April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble ~ pgs.17-27

1.  A concierge who reads Marx!   Might one  suspect she is contemplating subversion or joining a  union?  Why is she reading his German Ideology?

2. "Mankind would do better to confine itself to its own needs." Does it appear that Mme. la Concierge is doing just that?  Do you understand the title of this chapter:  "Whosoever sows desire harvests oppression?"

3. Do you think Renée fits the stereotype of the typical French concierge?  How has Muriel Barbery so carefully and clearly  described her?

4. How does the tone and the attitude of the second narrator contrast with  that of the concierge? 

5. Would you say Renée and Paloma are both hedgehogs?  What might  they each be hiding from, or frightened about behind their protective cover?

6. How do you think the young Paloma has developed this "big thing"  about Japan? Did you ever try to write poetry at her age?  Are you familiar with the Japanese haiku?

7.  Is it so  unusual for an adolescent to think about suicide?  Do you think Paloma's dream of a " delicate slipping away"  jives with her actual plan?  How can it possibly achieve social justice?

8.  What is an autodidact?  Or -  "the most recent eructation of the ruling corporate elite."  Shall we keep a vocabulary list of  unfamiliar words? Which ones have you noted?


Relevant Links:
Online Dictionary (English);
Glossary of posted Definitions
French-English Dictionary;
Hôtels particuliers; An Interview with Muriel Barbery;

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Eloise

[JoanP]

Welcome! Bienvenue! This promises to be one of the more challenging books we've discussed together. I just know it is going to be rewarding - if not life-changing!

 The two narrators are said to mirror one another and yet one is a young 12 year old and the other is a 54 year old widow.  For the next few days we will go slowly, getting to know each one - although they will remain nameless throughout  the Preamble, did you notice that?  Do they have anything in common?

After what seems like such a long wait, we are  eager to hear your initial reaction to the introduction, the two narrators,  to the writing, the new author's  manner  of expression - everything! 

It's important for you to know from the start, that you are not confined to the Topics for Discussion in your remarks.  They are only supplied as possible points for discussion, but we recognize that you will all have different reactions to the book, which is just crammed with so much to talk about!

Allons!

[Eloise]

Bonjour mes amies. Welcome my friends.

We have to read between the lines in this book, every line hides some secret meaning for us to decipher. At first the characters behaviour is shocking, but full of mystery and purpose and we have to continue reading to know the reason why they behave this way.

Social status is well defined while the characters intellect has a hard time trying to stay in the background, invisible to the naked eye while life goes on in their ordinary life. It gives me a thrill to read how the author describes live situations intertwined with characters inner thoughts. 

Lets share our own thoughts while we are reading the Preamble and The Miracle of the Arts so we can get a feeling of how we perceive what is going on in the first chapters of Elegance of the Hedgehog.

[mrssherlock]

Marx, ah, yes. Did you hear that Das Kapital is going to become a musical?

[Gumtree]

Suddenly it's on... I didn't bump into Pat in the night...didn't know Kidsal was an antipodean.... and I'm still thinking about autodidact.

I really believe that in some respects we are all autodidacts.

There are areas of life in which we learn either by experience or teach ourselves  whatever it may be. I would be especially ignorant today if all I knew was that which had been instilled into me by teachers in a formal situation or by parents and others in the informal.
When my formal education ended there still remained vast areas of knowledge of which I knew nothing and which in the intervening half century and more I have tapped into and learned about on my own. I have taught myself skills - typing, art, crafts, horticulture, etc., parenting too, - or perhaps the children taught me that -and more recently computer skills  (though there's still much to be desired there), and through reading (which everyone here loves to do) embarked on a life-long passion for learning. So that albeit in a casual and even haphazard way I have taught myself an appreciation of many subjects - though of course I am master of very few. - I'm sure others here would have had much the same experience.

I failed every attempt to come to terms with philosophy. However in the Preamble  I was delighted to come across the reference to Ludwig Feuerbach of whom I knew a little because George Eliot had translated his Essence of Christianity. Eliot's translation has been reprinted in fairly recent times and is still the primary English text used in tertiary courses both here in the antipodes  and elsewhere. It is quite amazing that this is so as Eliot translated the work in 1854 - just realising that small fact has given me a better appreciation of just how skilled a linguist Eliot must have been and how broad was her grasp on philosophy, theology etc.  Amazing woman. Otherwise I am in the dark about Feuerbach except that he began as a follower or disciple of Hegel and then turned toward other areas.

eructation is a word well known to me - I had an old uncle who used it constantly whenever he belched or broke wind - which was often - 'just my eructation' he would say. I don't use or hear the word in general conversation however on occasions of family reminiscence it still surfaces as we remember our windy old uncle. His war wounds were the cause of his problems and I think he may have learned the word whilst hospitalised. Happily he had many saving graces.

[Steph]

Addressing one of the questions.. Yes, it is not unusual for teens to dream of suicide. I have read studies that it simply is quite common. The arguement being that it sounds so romantic and sort of " I'll show them" sort of attitude.
I am hoping that as I get further into the book, the whole thing will make more sense. At the moment, the concierge is not at all my type of human and the little girl is being quite typical in her attitude that she comes off better than her parents, etc.

[Eloise]

Jackie, indeed the first word of Elegance is Marx and I said to myself are we were going to read about politics? but it was just one of the tricks of the author to give us a jolt and the whole page does just that doesn't it? Do you think that our narrator is kind to the Pallières boy? After all he is just a teenager who wants to impress someone perhaps because his parents wouldn't agree with him. What do you think?

Ah! Gumtree, there you are, for you April 1st happened much sooner that for us here..  "There are areas of life in which we learn either by experience or teach ourselves  whatever it may be." I agree totally with you. Imagine being born before the great depression and WW11, that alone taught some of us so many things, then life itself with all the experiences we must go through, whether we want to or not, is a great teacher.

By comparison, Antoine Pallières is learning in school and madame la concierge is an autodidact. Which is better I am asking myself now.

[joangrimes]

I should have reread the first of this book yesterday because I don't remember much of it.  However I do remember that the first page sent me to a dictionary several times.
I will try to find time sometime today to reveiw the section that we are discussing.  I will wait on my comments until I do this.

Joan Grimes

[Babi]

Alas, I still do not have a copy of the book.  My daughter Sally is on the waiting list at her branch county library.  She informed me that the library had 9 copies and I was 8th on the waiting list, so hopefully a will have one soon.
  Meanwhile, I'll simply read your posts and get an idea of what's happening.

[Gumtree]

I am bemused by the picture drawn of the typical French concierge as being :

... it is written somewhere that concierges are old, ugly and sour ... (with) large dithering cats who sleep all day on cushions covered with crocheted covers...and again concierges watch television interminably while their rather large cats doze... the entrance to the building must smell of pot-au-feu, cabbage soup or a country-style cassoulet

Those of you who frequently travel to France must enlighten me as to whether this really is an accurate description of the real-life concierges, you have met - their age (old), their demeanour (ugly & sour), their pastimes, (TV and crocheting), their pets (fat cats), and their culinary expertise (cabbage soup etc). Are these the qualities required for obtaining the post of concierge? Or is the description something of a send-up ?

[JoanR]

Ah, the day is here! I’m so happy that we’ll be discussing the Hedgehog!  I read it last fall and, not worrying about the parts that I found mystifying, enjoyed the book tremendously.  I gave it to my granddaughter in Toronto who had majored in Philosophy at the U of T - she loved it but even she found some references baffling.  Those come up later in the book.

I took a course in philosophy back in university days more than 60 years ago so that’s little help - I mostly remember the big names and not much about their theories.
The concierge mentions the eleventh thesis on Feuerbach.  I found Marx’s “Theses on Feuerbach” on the net and printed it out.  Most of it  I found obscure but the 11th does make sense!  It states: “ Philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it.” At least there we can imagine what he’s talking about.

And whether or not we understand these philosophical references, we can find much else to relate to and take pleasure in.  I love the concierge!  One thing, a major thing, that I have learned in this long life is that almost every person has something interesting about him.

[ALF43]

 

Gumtree- I love the story of your grand old uncle.
The "prosperous heir" cretin Antoine Pallieres is an "eructation" of the ruling elite.   
Does that mean that his breed is full of hot air and wind, no matter which way it "comes out?"
It is no wonder that our conceirge slammed the door in the kid's face.

Eloise mentioned that the first word is MARX in our story and she automatically thought politics and I automatically thought "class struggle."
This beginning cracked me up right from the onset, (hardly Marxist) particularly the statement that a conierge who reads Marx must be contemplating subversion, sold her soul to the devil or the trade union. Now that is funny!   It sounds so sinister and treasonous -as if her reading such literature could result in sabotage and the overthrow of the grand(ious) hierarchy, the pedigree folks.   I don't quite understand the alliance with the trade union though.  Is that in reference to the Marxist theory that socio-economic change occurrs through organized and revolutionary action?

[JoanP]

Do you think the concierge over-reacted?  I mean, what did the kid do, but ask try to make conversation?   She finds him physically repulsive- is it the  fact that he is one of the wealthy tenants?  ... Would she have acted this way towards the elder tenants in the building?  She comes close to shutting the door in his face.

Steph - stop looking for hidden meaning.  Read it for the story.  I'm sure that many who have read and enjoyed the book   did so without any knowledge of philosophy or laboring over hidden meanings.  I'll admit it is a bit rough-sledding in the next section, "Camellias" - but you have great resources right here.  If you are puzzling over something, just ask here - it appears that we have some who are up on their philosophies - (had you ever heard of Feuerbach?) (Notice that there is a link to next week's questions - next to the dates - see if having the questions help as you read.)

Speaking of Feuerbach - on the first page -

"To understand Marx and to understand why he is mistaken, one must read the German Ideology."

Who does "he" refer to - Who is mistaken?   The Pallières boy?  JoanR...can you help?  Thank you for bringing us the 11th Thesis on Feuerbach
 "Philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it."

Is she saying that the Pallières boy is mistaken because there is no way Marx could change the way a monied child  views the world - he can't change/won't change it because he is rich?

To me, the opening lines said more than politics and class, but  about condescending when talking to the adolescent who was trying to make conversation.  I don't like to see adults talk to kids like that. I'm not liking her much at this point.

[Laura]

I am enjoying the book.  Much of it is funny.  Some is a bit sad.  Both narrators are interesting and hold my attention.  They are alike in that they are both trying to keep up appearances that hide their intelligence.

I did not know the meaning of seppuku, and found out from my dictionary that it is Japanese ritual suicide by disembowelment. 

I found myself confused by Paloma’s references to the goldfish bowl.

“Despite all that, despite all this good fortune and all this wealth, I have known for a very long time that the final destination is the goldfish bowl.”  (pg. 23)

“But one thing is sure --- there’s no way I’m going to end up in the goldfish bowl.”  (pg. 24)

“Those Africans have the goldfish bowl right there in front of them, all day long --- they can’t escape through storytelling.”  (pg. 27)

Being in a fish bowl means that everyone can see your every move and you are observed and commented on by people.  That doesn’t seem to be the meaning here, but I’m not sure.  Does anyone have any thoughts?

[fairanna]

Well I must go back and re read  however I am with JoanP

To me, the opening lines said more than politics and class, but  about condescending when talking to the adolescent who was trying to make conversation.  I don't like to see adults talk to kids like that. I'm not liking her much at this point.

I did read further on and was less annoyed so we shall see....

My stay in Paris was in a well run small hotel a few blocks from the Champs .I did stay in a B&B in London and the owner seemed to be glad to have us but still was sort of condescning to us "Americans " I have no idea if she was that way with others  We were there in 1953 and there was still a lot of damage everywhere in England and France etc ..I think many were just getting back on their feet ...Now this evening I will review what I read and try to make comments what I am reading and what the book and everyone here is saying...

[JudeS]

I am curious as to how this book will continue.  The Concierge seems a real 'Autodidact' as does the young girl.  Perhaps that is what they have in common.

Going over the posted questions , I zeroed in on part two of question two.-What is the meaning of  ,'Whoever sows desire harvests oppression'.

Is this the opposite of what is usually taught-'You shall reap what you have sown'?

I gave it some more thought and came up with this explanation with which you may or may not agree.

Sowing desire makes slaves of those who run after things like sex, money,Alcohol, Drugs etc. because the person becomes enslaved to their overwhelming desire which turns into a constant need for more of the same and thus because he is enslaved to a passion he becomes oppressed i.e. slaves are oppressed beings.

On another topic -when I was visiting Paris in the 1950'ss I became very ill . The concierge in the place I was staying physically looked like the person described in the book. I was too ill to asses her character but the whole idea of a concierge in charge of a group of flats (apartments) came back as an almost forgotten memory in reading the first few pages of the book.

 

[Eloise]

I am bemused by the picture drawn of the typical French concierge as being :

Those of you who frequently travel to France must enlighten me as to whether this really is an accurate description of the real-life concierges, you have met - their age (old), their demeanour (ugly & sour), their pastimes, (TV and crocheting), their pets (fat cats), and their culinary expertise (cabbage soup etc). Are these the qualities required for obtaining the post of concierge? Or is the description something of a send-up ?

I don't think it is a job requirement but I think that the author well describes what in general a concierge would be like. Does it seem far fetched to you? I have seen one two in Paris and it is not far from what is described here. We can't generalize though. I have read that it is a job that is fast disappearing in France because their "loge" and salery are being used more efficiently.
 

I did stay in a B&B in London and the owner seemed to be glad to have us but still was sort of condescning to us "Americans " I have no idea if she was that way with others 

Anna,  I don't know if they are condescending to Americans only, but most of the time, they keep their distance with anyone they don't know, I found when I was in Europe. My sister married a Frenchman and lived in Paris 8 years, at first she was very lonely, but in the end she got used to their ways and finally she liked it.

[JoanP]

For a minute there, I thought you were going to say that the concierge cared for you when you were sick, Jude.   I don't ever remember a sympathetic or a nurturing concierge. It was years ago, as a single woman, that I was aware of les concierges who were nosier, always watching me.  I don't remember them in the places I've stayed with my husband.  They were always there at the door whenever I came in and out. They did keep their distance though, as Anna describes.   I don't remember that they were nasty - I was probably the abrupt, nasty one!

Gum, we have to wait for someone who actually lived in a building with a concierge...but I believe that our Renee is going to extremes so that no one suspects she is unlike the expected stereotype.

I've been thinking about the way she regarded the Pallieres boy with such disdain, such condescension.  Doesn't it make you wonder why she resents him so?  It's the money,  don't you think?
Why is the concierge reading Marx, do we know yet ?

Jude, thanks for tackling the tough question - (somebody had to do it! ')

"Whoever sows desire harvests oppression."

I'm trying to apply  your explanation to the autodidact...
"Sowing desire makes slaves of those who run after things like sex, money,Alcohol, Drugs (and EDUCATION?) because the person becomes enslaved to their overwhelming desire which turns into a constant need for more of the same and thus because he is enslaved to a passion" 

Seriously,  what is the point being made in this context?  Is Marx advocating the renunciation of luxuries, as they will lead the seeker to the oppressive need for more?

[JoanP]

Laura - they say to use a word three times, it's yours.  I don't know how I'm going to work "seppuku" into conversation!   Traudee suggested a glossary...it's one of the new links in the header - a work in progress.  Also, the link to the English dictionary that MarjV brought to us - that's up there too.  I have a feeling our vocabulary is going to increase this month! I need to apologize - I know kidsal is not an antipode...though there are some here on the East Coast who regard Wyoming as the end of the earth.  My mind crossed the other K poster from New Zealand.

Das Kapital, the musical, Jackie? Will have to see that! (I read in one of M.Barbery's interviews that there will be a film adaptation of Hedgehog. I wonder how the book will "translate"  to film, don't you?)

Babi - here's hoping that you get your book - by Saturday.  I think if you read along until then, you'll have a good idea of both of the narrators and the climate here at #7 rue de  Grenelle.

[straudetwo]

Oh my gosh,  just this instant I lost my entire post with answers to your questions!
Mercy! I am sorry.

I can't start over again now because I have a monstrous headache.  Yesterday afternoon after the meeting of our local book group I fell and spent a few hours in the ER.  They discharged me at 7 p.m. and gave me 4 pages of instructions, inter alia they told me I shouldn't be alone for 48 hours. It's been only a few more than 24.

So à demain.

[waafer]

As some time has passed since I read The Elegance I have just commenced to read it again and as usual when I reread a book I find places I have completely forgotten about.  I think the clumsiest word I have ever encountered  is 'incunabulum' and amongst the meanings 'a single sheet of printed material' or 'a collection of stories'  - wonder where the boy learnt that word.  Am sure he did not think that Madam Michel would know what it meant.

My visit to Paris was in 1980 but I do not remember a concierge at our Hotel. What I will never  forget was that there were many people on strike who worked at places that tourists visit- Versaille and The Louvre were .Sad.  I do enjoy reading all the comments about this book and will follow it hereon.  Wonder what the film will belike.   WAAFER

[Babi]

Fortunately for me, I found a great deal to discover and comment on just from the excellent posts.

Not cabbage soup, please! I wouldn't mind the aroma of a good cassoulet greeting me in the hall.  I once had a recipe for one of lamb and white beans (I used navy),
and it was delicious.

“ Philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways;
the point is to change it.”

True, but then, that is not the job of the
philosopher. The philosopher's role is to make us think! Preferably, before
we act. 

"the devil or the trade union".  Surely that is a satirical association of trade unions with the devil. An attitude that fits right in with supposing that anyone who reads Marx must be a subversive.  I've known people who think like that.

Aw, JOAN, if we don't try to grasp the subtler meanings, we will probably miss
most of the humor.  Of course I wouldn't want to work it to death, but I hope
we can find a satisfactory balance. 
  "To understand Marx and to understand why he is mistaken.."  Doesn't that 'he' refer to Marx himself? That is the way I read it.

[Eloise]

Welcome Waafer, I am glad you found us. We look forward to further posts from you.

I love cassoulet the way my sister cooks it Babi . I must ask her for her recipe.

Today it's so nice out, I'm going out to enjoy the sunshine.




 

[JoanP]

Ah, Traudee, I hate when that happens!  Don't you wonder where those posts go when they disappear?  I always think they must be lurking somewhere - and if I only knew where,  I could retrieve them.  I feel especially badly for you because of your headache and your fall.  I hope you are feeling better morning!

Babi - I do believe that you can get a good idea of these opening chapters from the wonderful posts so far.  We are moving at a snail's pace these first three days to take a good introduction to the two narrators - and also a feel for the author's style.

The "Camellias" chapters scheduled for next week are so jam-packed with points for discussion, I'm not sure how we'll do it all.  We might have to slow down the discussion if  it turns out to be too much.  Please holler if you need more time!   Oh, and  notice that the questions for next week are in the heading behind the link for April 4.
 
I really hope you get your book, Babi!  I agree with you - and fully intend  to go for  the subtler meanings or we will indeed miss the humor.  I think I said that to someone who was feeling overwhelmed...

To understand Marx and to understand why he is mistaken

-
 I still consider Marx a possibility for the "he" who is mistaken...but can't figure out exactly why the concierge thinks he is...anyone? 

Waafer, happy to hear from you.  I too wonder what a film adaptation of the book would be like.  Who would play Madame Michel?  She's "short, ugly and plump."  Any candidates?
You mention strikes...I too remember strikes in Paris - and London.  In London it was always the subways and buses that went out - making it really difficult to get around.  Maybe if it were discovered that the concierge has been reading Marx, she would be considered a troublemaker that would disturb her highly important clientele...
Gee, she might even lose her job! 

[JoanP]

There's an English dictionary in the links in the header, did I tell you that?  And a glossary - in which we'll add the words that you have looked up.

Gum, I've been thinking about what you had to say yesterday about autodidacts - "in some respects, we are all autodidacts"   I agree with you!  Unless we had a really outstanding education, some of us have had to work harder at it, I think.  I had been wondering to what extent our concierge was self-taught.  She tells us, by way of introduction - "I did, not go to college."   It seemed important to make that clear to us.  Shall we assume she has been to high school, then? At what point did she become an "autodidact"?  Already, we are thinking of the precocious 12 year old as one?

Laura asked an interesting question about the goldfish bowl referred to in the child's journal  "Profound Thought No.1.  We need to talk about this journal - and why the jounalist fears the goldfish bowl.

Being in a fish bowl means that everyone can see your every move and you are observed and commented on by people.  That doesn’t seem to be the meaning here, but I’m not sure.  Does anyone have any thoughts?

[Laura]

Regarding the question:  What is the meaning of, 'Whoever sows desire harvests oppression'.

I agree with Jude’s answer.  However, I took it more along the lines of Marx’s philosophy (which I had to look up on Wikipedia):

Marx argued that capitalism, like previous socioeconomic systems, will produce internal tensions which will lead to its destruction.   Just as capitalism replaced feudalism, socialism will in its turn replace capitalism and lead to a stateless, classless society which will emerge after a transitional period.

This would lead one to conclude that capitalism creates desires and the fulfillment of desires lead to class distinctions based on how many desires can be fulfilled by each individual.  The resulting class distinctions would then lead to tension between the classes and cause society’s destruction, creating oppression.

I don’t believe a word of that, but I think that is what the quote means.

I think Renee is reading Marx to expand her mind.

Babi said, "To understand Marx and to understand why he is mistaken.."  Doesn't that 'he' refer to Marx himself? That is the way I read it. 

I agree.

[EvelynMC]

I have to go back and re-read the pages before I can comment.  But I agree Renee seemed to be unnecessarily unpleasant to the boy.

Comments on Paloma later.

Evelyn

[ALF43]

Well Joan I think that the answer to your question is that in a fish bowl there is no way to camouflage oneself.
Renee describes herself as short, ugly, plump and insignificant. Even her cat, Leo, has no distinguishing features.  Look how she wishes to hide and camouflage her entire existence.  Everything is hidden, even the food that she purchases at the butcher is surreptitiously snuck into the building.  She goes as far to "perpetuate" this charade by utilizing a spy hole hidden behind net curtains- curtains to filter out people!  A camouflage, a cloak!!
 Those are my thoughts.

Being in a fish bowl means that everyone can see your every move and you are observed and commented on by people.  That doesn't seem to be the meaning here, but I'm not sure.  Does anyone have any thoughts?

[JudeS]

In this day and age why would anyone read Marx?  Seems extremely perverse to me.

There are so many great philosophers that expand the mind and are relevant to everyones life-even a plump concierge.

The author is sending us a message.  I thought of three possibilities:

1) the Concierge is so bright she can read Marx and UNDERSTAND him.(Marx is notably hard to read.)

2)She is reading Marx to discover how to revolt or if she wishes to revolt.(Against whom?)

3)She had a lover who was influenced by Marxist theory and she wants to prove HIM (the ex) was wrong.

These theories are of course based on my limited information  having read just the first few pages. I can't begin to imagine how many more theories will emerge as we plunge further into the story.

As to the actual concierge whom I met in Paris the thing I remember most was the fact that she was always wiping her wet, red hands on a fairly dirty apron.  The apron changed from day to day but it was never a clean one.  The Doctor gave her instructions because neither she nor the Doctor could give credence to the fact that there was a young man in my room who thankfully understood French and was really only a friend who had volunteered to care for me during this time.

[PatH]

Hi, everyone.  I finally got my book, and will be with you whenever I can spare time from Abraham Lincoln.  I have all sorts of reactions, but for the moment I'll plug in my take on the fishbowl.  I think it's not so much that you are observed, it's that you're trapped.  You are swimming along as though you were going somewhere, but actually you're just going in circles, and you can't get out of the bowl, and it's all rather pointless, but you may not even realize that because it looks to you like you're doing something.

[JoanK]

Hi. I've read ahead in the book, but somehow forgot to join the discussion. So I've been skimming the posts -- hope I can remember all my comment.

The philosophers she talks about are all the ones we read in graduate school. I don't think any of the graduate students understood phenominology -- I certainly didn't -- so if our concierge does, more power to her.

My first reaction was to the sentance (don't have it in front of me --paraphrased) Marx's language is noble etc. etc.. She must have read a frenvh translation. Marx's language is a mess. The only reason anyone can ead Capital is that Engels cleaned the language up.

"'Whoever sows desire harvests oppression". I don't remember Marx ever saying anything like that, but what do I know. That is the essence of Buddism -- that all the miseries of the world are caused by desire. It makes us slaves to obtaining the thing we desire.

I think Marx was more concerned that people didn't have enough to eat.

Interesting ideas about the goldfish bowl. I looked at it completely differently. I saw the goldfish swimming around and around with no place to go and nothing meaningful to do.

"Go to the devil or to the unions". Reminds me of that old song:

"You can't get to heaven
In your underwear.
Cause the Lord don't allow
No unions there".

[straudetwo]

First to the new questions.

1. The Preamble is Barbery's Opening Salvo  and clearly puts the reader on notice that despite her mousy appearance, the concierge is an intellectual, albeit self-taught.  In the first two pages she demonstrates her knowledge about socialism, Marx, the Theses of Feuerbach and The German Ideology.  Here is also the first indication of how important Class is.  Next we will learn all about Art - and  there's more to come.

I found Renée's private thoughts on young Antoine extremely unkind,  actually hateful and  definitely off-putting.   Why does she refer to him as "little CRETIN "?  What is wrong with "his conifer green duffle coat"?  Does she resent him and "his repulsive and embryonic whiskers" because until that day he had said "nary a word" to her?  Or merely because he is a "rich boy" and son of an important father?

2. When I read the book the first time, I did not pause to wonder about the meaning of the chapter's title
but pushed on instead.

3. Whatever a stereotypical French concierge is or may be, Renée goes out of her way to tell the reader that she is anything BUT.  

4. Both narrators explain themselves in great detail. At this point we haven't seen them INTERACT yet, but their private thoughts seem to be based on the same feelings of alienation from the world they live in.

5. Both surround themselves with an "armor", and in that sense they are both hedgehogs. It is too early to pinpoint exactly what they are hiding from.

6. Paloma has taken up Japanese as a second foreign language (the first is probably English) and feels an affinity to the language.  She longs  to read the comics (different alphabet).

7. She tells the readers (a mite too often) that she is much more intelligent and clearly much farther ahead in knowledge than her classmates but hides it from them - just like the concierge, who hides her intelligence from everybody around her. We need to read more Profound Thoughts.

8. As a respondent already said,  "eructation" means belching. 
This phrase in the sentence might become clearer if a few words were changed, as  follows  and "eructation" avoided (the italics are mine)

There he (Antoine Pallières) stood, the most recent sprout coughed up by the ruling corporate elite -

[kidsal]

The book finally arrived yesterday.  I am an antipodean??  Does that mean I am 180 degrees from the norm??    or that I sleep all day and study/read at all night??   Definitely an autodidact!

Am a fan of Haiku. 

Live in simple faith
 Just as this
 trusting cherry
flowers, fades, and falls.
  Issa

[Gumtree]

Traude Good to see you back with us - hope you have no after effects from your fall.

Eructation : As you suggest the use of - a sprout coughed up or similar phrase would have obviated using eructationwhich I believe is not in common use. I'm wondering if this is the work of the translator or did Barbary use the French equivalent of 'eructation' (whatever that may be).


I'm fairly familiar with the Haiku though it is not my favoured form of poetry. I find that when used by classic poets, the meaning is often a trifle too subtle and when used by not so skilled poets it is a trifle too obvious. For me there seems to be no happy medium.

[JoanP]

Good morning! 
It is good to see so many of you posting this morning...such a treat to print out your posts to read with my morning coffee! 

kidsal, please forgive me for calling you an antipode!  I confused you with another "K"  lady from New Zealand.
PatH, your book has arrived - happy to hear that - and that JoanK remembered we had started the discussion on Wednesday.  Traudee has recovered and  is back with us -  Thngs are looking up.  Now we wait for Babi and Jackie's library books to come up and we'll be in good shape to tackle the Camellia's chapters tomorrow.  This will take our full compliment to do justice - and to get the most out of them in the time allowed.  Remember to holler during the week if you need more time - we can extend a few days if you think you need it.  These chapters are the longest in the book.

I'm going to go digest last night's posts now - I find Jude's multiple choice question  why the concierge is reading Marx fascinating  (so far have eliminated a boyfriend ) - and your fish bowl comments thought-provoking. 
By the way, are you a coffee drinker in the am?

[JoanP]

Gum, do you find the simple verse that kidsal quoted, seemingly simple, yet full of meaning, a happy medium?  I thought it was wonderful. 

Traudee mentioned that she didn't pay attention to the chapter titles the first time she read the book.  Do you notice that when the young girl wrote in her journal of profound thoughts, she begins with a verse - haiku, right?  Will someone define "haiku" for us?

Follow the stars
In the goldfish bowl
An end

How did you "translate" the verse she wrote at the start of her journal?
You wrote some interesting explanations as to why the girl fears the goldfish bowl - Andy, no place to hide, JoanK, nothing meaningful to do, no place to go, PatH, swimming in circles and you can't get out.

Steph writes that studies show it is not  that unusual for  a young person think of suicide.  I'm wondering if it is unusual to plan so far in advance - June 16 is months away.  If she's serious, desperate, why would she put it off if life is so meaningless - pointless, with nothing to look forward to?

[Babi]

LAURA, I think you are correct about the Marxist philosophy explaining the quote on desire=oppression. 
  I need to read the book to understand the refrence to Marx being
mistaken because he didn't understand German philosophy...or was it psychology. It is certainly true that communism had no success in Germany. They were Fascist and inimical to Communism.

[straudetwo]

JoanP

Haiku is a special form of poetry which consists of a set number of what is called "metrical phrases" of 5, 7, and 5 morae.
Morae is the plural of mora, which means syllable in Japanese. Haiku typically contains a kigo, i.e. a reference to a season of the year. Japanese haiku is printed in a single vertical line.
In English three LINES are given, as we see on pg. 26. The apparent object is to formulate a thought on a season with the greatest verbal economy possible within the dictates of the style. 
 
Paloma seems to have mastered the complicated alphabet but thinks the teacher is not doing good enough a job, she tells us regarding the pronunciation. Maman, an educaged woman with a PhD, is frustrated that Paloma, of such obvious intelligence, is concerned with a  "trifle" such as manga, which is the general term for "comic" that Paloma has given her.

Renée Michel has been reading for years -- in no special order, everything and anything she came across, without a set path, design, even less a goal, guided simply by her own interests and gradually developed preferences. . That's what an autodidact does. S ocialism, communism, Marx (and presumably Engels, too) are just the FIRST example the author mentions. There is plenty of social criticism cloaked in satire, and we need to take that into account rather than take every word literally.

The book does not have a plot in the conventional sense and, so far, little action.  The reader is getting to know the characters.  What Renée says on page 20 "I have the extraordinary good fortune to be the concierge of a very high-class sort of building." is sheer irony bordering on sarcasm. The hedgehog is showing its distinctly unfriendly side.

Marx was the beginning.  Now Art is being mentioned. First literature =  "Death in Venice" (a novella by Thomas Mann), then Music the composer Gustav Mahler  (page 21).
Paloma also is thinking in terms of literature, namely Marcel Proust's multi-volume magnum opus "Remembrance of Things Past", which his brother completed after Marcel's death.

Gum, hello and thank you.

[straudetwo]

A quick follow-up to my last post.

Polama's literary references are in the second paragraph on pg. 23.

(1)  "... trying to act like Madame Guermantes ..."

Madame Guermantes is a character in volume  3 of Remembrance of Things Past  a k a  In Search of Lost time by Marcel Proust.

(2)  Maman to Paloma:  "Pumpkin, you are a regular Sanseverina".

The reference is to a character in  La Chartreuse de Parme= The Charterhouse of Parma by Stendhal (author of The Red and the Black).

The parallelism in the thinking of our two hedgehogs may be fun to track.  I believe that at this point Paloma - despite her expressed wish to kill herself by her 13th birthday - is  much easier to take than the grim, embittered Renée who seems haunted by a monumental inferiority complex. (Just MHO.)

[JoanP]

I'm wondering which of the two is happier, Traudee.  I'm thinking it's the concierge, who has her literature, her Mahler...her privacy!  She's using her mind to make her situation bearable, isn't she?

I just read that haiku verse of hers again...and the context - It becomes clearer on the rereading I think.  "People aim for the stars, and they end up like goldfish in a bowl."
And she doesn't want to live through this experience.  Sad, for a such a young girl.  She needs some friends...or a mentor. Not her maman, though.  What makes her so cynical?  Maman is no genius, she says.  Just a PHD in literature, that's all.  Does she mean that Maman knows nothing about real life? Do you see a similarity between Maman and the concierge?
Here's another take on haiku - pretty much what you said, Traudee, but expanded a bit more -

Haiku is a poetic form and a type of poetry from the Japanese culture. Haiku combines form, content, and language in a meaningful, yet compact form. Haiku poets, which you will soon be, write about everyday things. Many themes include nature, feelings, or experiences. Usually they use simple words and grammar. The most common form for Haiku is three short lines. The first line usually contains five (5) syllables, the second line seven (7) syllables, and the third line contains five (5) syllables. Haiku doesn't rhyme. A Haiku must "paint" a mental image in the reader's mind. This is the challenge of Haiku - to put the poem's meaning and imagery in the reader's mind in ONLY 17 syllables over just three (3) lines of poetry!