Kristin Lavransdatter

[BarbStAubrey]

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April/May Book Club Online

Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset

This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.   I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better. Schedule: April 21-25  Jørundgaard, Chapters 1-4           April 26-30 Jørundgaard, Chapters 5-7           May 1 or 2-4, The Wreath, Chapters 1-3           May 5-9, The Wreath, Chapters 4-8           May 10-?, Lavrans Bjorgulfson, Chapters 1-4 Questions: Jorundgaard Chapters 5-7: How much control did young people have over who they married? Why can't Kristin and Arne even think of marrying? Kristin doesn't much want to marry Simon.  Why didn't she ask her father to release her from the betrothal? After her encounter with Bentein, Kristin made some mistakes that made her more vulnerable to gossip.  Should she have avoided these? What do you think of Simon? In the fuss over Arne's death, Simon behaves very capably and sensibly.  Why does his calmness make Kristin like him less? The Wreath: Chapters 1-3 Kristin seems to fall for Erlend instantly and completely.  Does this this seem realistic?  Does Erlend feel the same way? What is Erlend like?  Can you like or approve of him? What is the oath the two swear to each other after the dance?  Is it binding?

Discussion Leader: PatH

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, I think that is it - by 'refusing to marry for money and land' she is not also a commodity - she wants the freedom to be her own person and at the time both Church and King promoted laws of Betrothal and Marriage that was a legal document binding property and wealth, even if someone backs out the consequences are in payment of land and wealth.

She reminds you of women in the early 70s with free love and burning bras - or even the adventurous pioneer women who hung onto their land, fighting off those wanting to take the ranch after an Indian attack killed off the men or those who arrived in this nation and immediately shipped out to the west as ranch cooks or prostitutes.

Great quote to share Bellamarie - "then you can take me back to the convent, and never take me from it again...I shall not live long there, I trow." - you are right-on IDing her aren't you with her tantrum - funny

[bellamarie]

I'm not seeing Kristin as a heroine at this point in the story.  Her behavior has been selfish, impulsive, petulant, and harmful to herself, her family and others.  

I never was into the free spirit, burning bras, drugs, free love or Woodstock, so I guess maybe I am seeing this from a different perspective.  I've never been someone who could bring shame to my family, for my own selfish wants.  Her father loves her unconditionally, he has spoiled her, and yet now he is trying to teach her how this man, who she can't live without, is not a respectful man, and is not worthy of her, because of his actions.  I can't see her fighting for anything, but being with an undeserving man, who already has illegitimate children, by a woman who has now returned to his house.  It's as though Kristin has gone from the frying pan, into the fire with Erlend.

I'm all for strong women standing up for justice, freedom, independence, ownership, and rights, but I just don't see any of that here.  I don't even see her going against the church, if anything she fled to the church for absolution.  I don't see her refusing to not marry for money or property, she has not even really given real thought to that.  Her response to Erlend, is that of a girl just simply wanting to be with him.  It is easy for her to say she would shovel dung to be with him, but when her little fairy tale became a reality, I sense it would sooner or later prove to be more than she imagined.  She has been duped by Erlend.  Maybe he has ulterior motives other than satisfying his sexual desires.  Erlend seemed to have known Kristin before they met.  He seemed to have a purpose for telling her all about Lady Aashild, how they are related, and how he is hoping to win back favor with the king.  It could be Erlend sees Kristin and her good family name as a way to earn back that favor with the king.  I am very skeptical, and do not see this ending well.

Can't we all remember a time a boy/man captured our young heart, and we all felt we could not live without him?  I know I sure can, when I was 17 yrs old.  He was a good person but was experimenting with drugs....early 70s, and sad to say he is dead today.  Left a wife and children behind at an early age.  I remember going to the funeral home with my husband, and standing there looking at his wife and children, thinking, that could have been me.  

I know Kristin will never be happy with Simon, she wants the rebel, the risks involved in the sneaking away seems to have excited her. I just hope her risk taking, does not prove to cost her or anyone else, more than just hurt and shame.  

P.S.  Barb, I would love to burn all bras today!!!!   

[PatH]

But Erland seems just as bad: "act first, and try to clean up the mess later if you can't get out of it, whining about it on the way and assuming that tomorrow things will somehow be all right" seems to be his motto. I know people like that and they stumble through life, hurting people and moving on.

JoanK sure has the knack of skewering people with a few pithy words.  Do you agree with her analysis?  Is there more to him than this?  And what does he really feel for Kristin?  Did he just kind of blunder into the relationship, or did he fall in love first?

[bellamarie]

I'm still asking myself if Erlend truly loves Kristin.  Like Lavrans points out, his behavior is not worthy of her.  I do agree with JoanK., Erlend acts without thinking.  He pretty much does what he wants, his track record is not that of a trustworthy man.  I don't think he blundered into this relationship at all, he used two different girls from the convent to give messages to Kristin.  His behavior was pretty fast, and inappropriate with Kristin. 

[ANNIE]

In rereading these pages, I now have a real admiration for Simon.  I really feel that he is sincere in his concern for Kristen's actions with Erlend. Was really impressed with Simon's speech about Laveran's disappointment over this affair (when he is informed of it) and that no one realizes what an incredible person he is: "He could be a  Chieftan, a leader of men"!  He points all this out to Kristen:  "You, his women, have so little understanding of the kind of man Laveran's is. Trond Gjesling says that he doesn't keep you all in line.  But why should Lavrans bother with such things when he was born to rule over men?  He had the makings of a chieftain, he was someone men would have followed, glady; but these are not the times for such men."  Simon really likes his betrothed's father.  Much respect there.  
Maybe Kristen will listen and learn as Simon speaks of her fall into hell with
Erlend.  Her not paying attention to the way Erlend treats her; sneaking her into a brothel just so he can have his way with her??  Then when all this is said and done, he goes on moaning and groaning about how his possible loss of honor and maybe not being able to improve his standing with the king.  These two idiots are so childish when they speak to one another.  

Another thing that bothers me is Kristen's thinking that all of this is her fault and non of Erland's.  Which means that everything that goes wrong within her hoped for dreams, will affect Erland worse than it does her.  Is this part of what we can assume she has been taught by her parents and the church?  Was this a medieval thinking process? 

[PatH]

Excellent points, Annie.  Simon does show up well here.  He seems to love Kristin, but will not force her.  And he is willing to take the blame for breaking the betrothal with everyone but Lavrans.  Was anyone surprised at Simon's high opinion of Lavrans?

[PatH]

   Another thing that bothers me is Kristen's thinking that all of this is her fault and non of Erland's.  Which means that everything that goes wrong within her hoped for dreams, will affect Erland worse than it does her.  Is this part of what we can assume she has been taught by her parents and the church?  Was this a medieval thinking process? 

This bothers me too.  Kristin's attitude seems odd.  When she realized she was ready to be responsible for her own actions, she also took responsibility for Erlend's.  Everything he does, she seems to think is her problem not his.  Perhaps her thinking is that now they are one flesh, but in that case they would surely share equally.

Now she is feeling the pain of seeing him act badly and be humiliated, and it doesn't sway her love, and she still thinks it's her problem.

[bellamarie]

Annie, I so agree with everything you have posted.  I was very wary of Simon early on, I still have a bit of a a hesitation where he is concerned, but he is showing very much respect for Lavrans in saying this.  And, ironically, it seems that Lavrans has the same respect for Simon.  At this point, Simon does seem worthy and deserving of Kristin.  She is just so self absorbed, and can only think about Erlend, who is not at all worthy or deserving of her.

I am shocked Erlend would even want to show his face after the humiliation Simon dealt to him at the house of prostitution.  Just the mere fact, of Simon coming there and knowing Erlend has deduced Kristin to this level of shame would be enough for any man to never want to show his face again. 

Are we ready to go on to the next chapters to see what happens next?

[PatH]

Yes, we should move on.  Kristin has gotten free of her engagement to Simon, but she's still hanging fire, waiting to see if she can marry Erlend.  Let's read the first four chapters of the next section, Lavrans Bjorgulfson.

[BarbStAubrey]

well she did not like Simon from the get go - she described him as having a moon face as I remember and then she just became resigned for awhile.

[PatH]

Yes, Kristin was lukewarm about Simon from the start, and went along with the betrothal just because she didn't want to go against her father.

The way she falls in love with Erlend is very strange, though--like something out of a fairy tale, and she has been put under a spell.  The witch-like Aashild tells Kristin that Erlend would be right for her.  Later, Erlend rescues her in a romantic way.  As soon as she learns who he is, she turns bright red, and from then on, she seems totally caught--no control whatever--loves Erlend unconditionally, and is willing to do whatever he tells her to.  But it's a fairy tale with a very uncertain real-life side, and no guaranteed happy ending in sight.

[BarbStAubrey]

Hah just thought - could this be a moral story - do what your parents recommend - they know what is best for you because on your own you do not have the maturity to know what is best for yourself? See, this is what happens... hmmm

[bellamarie]

Just finished chapter 1-4, and all I can say at this time, is I am furious!  I am a hopeless romantic, I root for the Romeo and Juliet type of love, where families like the Montagues and Capulets are feuding, preventing their children to be together.  But this story has just gone to a whole new level of destruction for love, for me.  

Barb, I'm beginning to think the moral of the story is, be damned with others, take what you want at any cost.  In this story the cost are other people's lives, at the expense of two selfish lovers.  I am NOT rooting for Erlend and Kristin to be together.  They are not going to get away with all that has taken place in these chapters.  Mark my word, someone saw and knows something, and will come forward.  I am really hurting for Kristin's parents right now.  Lady Ashild has betrayed Lavrans after all his kindness.

I want to give others a chance to read the chapters before discussing the highlights of these chapters.  Be back tomorrow.

Hope you all had a wonderful Mother's Day!

[StellaMaris]

Good Morning,

I just became a member here and, while waiting for the Admin to approve me, was inspired to get a copy of the newer translation of this book. I devoured The Wreath already over the weekend and am on to The Wife. I'd like to sit in on these discussions but don't know if I may post since I wasn't here from the beginning. I would never have discovered this wonderful book except for this website so many thanks!

[Halcyon]

Please post, the more the merrier.  No spoilers though as we are only up to Chapter 4 in the section Lavrans Bjorgulfson.  PatH will put up questions about these chapters and we'd love to read your comments.  The read is quite compelling, isn't it?

Bellamarie. What about Eline's actions?  She seemed crazed. She would have killed Kristin and/or Erland.

[bellamarie]

Stella, Welcome!!  We would love to have you join us in our discussion.  Just a little note, we read certain chapters assigned by our moderator.  As we move on, we are always able to discuss anything in the past chapters we have already completed.  The only rule we try to follow, is to not post spoilers, if you have read beyond the chapters assigned.

Halcyon,  Eline's behavior was deplorable, and inexcusable, but keep in mind Erlend has already gotten her pregnant twice, vowed to marry her after she gave birth to their first child, and has not only backed out of that promise, but went off and slept with Kristin and vowed a betrothal to her.  This guy is despicable, and Kristin is allowing him to change her from the person she has been, into someone she does not even like or recognize.  How many people have to lose their lives due to Kristin's own selfish actions?  The count is mounting.  Erlend I feel is not at all trustworthy or redeemable as far as I am concerned.  He has no respect for Kristin, his relatives, Lady Aashild, or Kristin's family.  She sees her parents in so much hurt, and yet all she can do is dig in and stay unfeeling.  I have to say what I think,  she is acting like a spoiled brat!  How can she still care about Erlend, after what happened in Lady Ashild's house?

[StellaMaris]

Thank you for the kind welcome. I can't put the book down, but I promise: no spoilers!!!


Kristin seems to fall for Erlend instantly and completely.  Does this this seem realistic?  Does Erlend feel the same way?


This "love at first sight" reminds me of something I'd learned in a course on Jungian psychology that stuck with me. Supposedly a person "projects" their anima/animus [their 'inner female/male side'] onto the opposite sex and develops a strong, galvanizing emotional attraction to a person about whom they might know very little. However accurate that may be, it certainly reminds me of Kristen's undiscerning and compelling attraction to Erlend.

What is Erlend like?  Can you like or approve of him?

So far, I don't think Erlend has quite the same thing going on, but it's difficult to be sure since we hear the story from Kristin's viewpoint. He seems compulsive and self sabotaging by nature; I think it's possible that he could act this way about any lovely young woman--as we know he has done before. I can't find it in myself to like this character, as my Dad used to say "Handsome is as handsome does"!

What is the oath the two swear to each other after the dance?  Is it binding?


Erlend pledges to have Kristin "in keeping with the law" before any other woman comes into his arms. Not exactly the same, Kristin  pledges to "never have another man again". There is nothing binding here as far as Canon Law goes, but both Erlend and Kristin take it quite seriously.

[PatH]

Welcome, StellaMaris.  Of course you can post; it's good to have you, and the more  viewpoints the better.  As Halcyon says, please don't say anything about the parts we haven't officially read yet, but anything up through chapter 4 in Lavrans Bjorgulfson is fair.

I won't be a very active presence today, as I'm spending it in airports, but then my travels are done for a while.

[PatH]

That's an interesting idea, StellaMaris, one I hadn't thought of.  I always wondered how such an attraction would wear.  The "anima" might have trouble actually filling the role s/he had been cast in.  I also thought Kristin might be acting out a myth or ballad, since Undset did incorporate some of those into the book.

[Halcyon]

Bellamarie,  Perhaps Erlend changed his mind about Eline after he discovered how conniving she was.  What about forgiveness?  Should he not have any happiness in his life because of a foolish promise made years ago?  Just being devil's advocate here.

[PatH]

It's going to be hard to know what Eline is really like, since almost everything we know about her comes from Erlend.  We do see that she's conniving, and she was willing to poison, but she certainly hasn't gotten a fair deal.

[bellamarie]

Halycyon,  How does one have happiness when they know it has come at the expense of others?  Erlend does not seem to be the least bit remorseful, nor does he change his ways, so why would he deserve to be forgiven?  He first got Eline pregnant, and made her his concubine,  then he comes on strong with Kristin, charms her into sleeping with him taking advantage of her youthfulness, and pays no mind to the cost, shame and harm that will come to her, or her family, by his actions.  He stands by and allows others to clean up his messes.  He let Simon deal with telling Lavrans the betrothal was off, while Kristin hides his name so her father does not confront him, and now he allows Lady Aashild and her husband, along with Kristin plot the entire burial of Eline.

As a Catholic religion teacher, I do know that in order for you to receive absolution, you must make a heartfelt, confession, and promise to sin no more.  As Kristin was told when she attempted to confess her sins.  Neither of them have shown reason enough to be forgiven at this point.    

Eline said she intended to give the drink to Erlend and herself.  She was a woman gone mad.  She has gotten disgraced, because of her actions with Erlend.  He lived with her for ten years.  That is far longer than when he promised to marry her, after their first child.  With everything that happened that night, I feel her death could have been avoided, had Erlend and Kristin handled it better.  They could both see she was out for revenge for how he had treated her.  Kristin has no idea Eline was pregnant.  So two lives were lost.

I just can't find any sympathy at this point for Erlend or Kristin.  I am even more upset with Lady Aashild, first for going along with luring Kristin to her house, then deciding she would help Erlend sneak off with Kristin, and then covering up the entire death of Eline.  

I just know this is not something they will be getting away with.  When all the stars line up against you, it's usually because it's not meant to be.

  

  

[BarbStAubrey]

I think what we have to look at here is the sexual mores of the Middle Ages - here is something I found and I also found a good web site that I will link -

Also, different for us in our training, we have to remember that Penance was established after the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, only a hundred years earlier than this story, as anything we would recognize today - the edict established a secret confession with priests directed not to reveal what they heard from a penitent where as, prior it was a congregation speaking aloud in church. The edict also said penance should be practiced once a year  - Penance was more about redemption than about keeping track of sins and even a women who had several children out of wedlock could be redeemed through confession but she asked for absolution from the Bishop rather than the local priest, with the Bishop assigning the penance of prayer, fasting and almsgiving.

This is how we had so many churches, cathedrals, even monasteries built - the wealthy and Royalty of Europe often received a penance of building a church or shrine or monastery.

During this time in the north, many no longer went to confession because there was a Tariff attached or some because the list of sins had changed so, they either found a priest who did it the old way or they did not go to confession since it did not become a 'must' till after the Council of Trent in 1551.

As to the attitude about sex this may help - "Prostitution thrived in the Middle Ages, whether it was approved by the Church or not. In larger towns, prostitutes could practice their trade in anonymity and it was regarded as an honest and essential profession.

For a time, the Church actually approved of prostitution. Ironically, the practice was regarded as a way of preventing adultery and homosexuality on a larger scale, so it was viewed a necessary evil. St. Thomas Aquinas, one of the sterner theologians, wrote: “If prostitution were to be suppressed, careless lusts would overthrow society.”

The most respectable prostitutes worked in brothels, or “stews.” Most villages had one. In some villages, prostitutes had to identify themselves by particular pieces of clothing, such as a veil with a yellow stripe. Women who practiced outside of a brothel were often exposed to the harsher elements of society. Some were imprisoned, tortured or mutilated."

And so it appears Kristin was being protected by having sex in the brothel.

And here is the link to a web page with lots of information - http://www.library.rochester.edu/robbins/sex-society

[bellamarie]

Kristin nor Eline were prostitutes.  Erlend having Kristin enter the brothel, so he could have sex with her was not to protect her, it was because he was sneaking around, so no one would see or know the two of them were together.  When Simon came to the brothel and saw Kristin there, you can be assured Simon was not seeing Kristin as being protected, he clearly saw it for what it was, Erlend demeaning, shaming, disrespecting and disgracing Kristin.  He could see Erlend was such a selfish person, he would bring Kristin to such a shameful place, to satisfy his own sexual desires.

As for confession, I don't think Erlend is the least bit interested in confessing all his sins, especially now that he has the blood of Eline and her an unborn child on his hands.   

[Halcyon]

Barb wrote: I think what we have to look at here is the sexual mores of the Middle Ages.

Along those lines I think we need to consider the sexual desires of Kristin.  She is a strong, healthy young woman with natural desires and seems to have enjoyed her time with Erland.  Kristin has always seemed like a caged bird waiting to be set free.  She is a forerunner of the sexual revolution.  And Eline.  She is older than Erland and could easily have seduced him because she was so unhappy with an old man for a husband.  Again she had natural desires.  I don't think Erland, just because he's a man, should be looked at as a sexual predator.  Plenty of cougars out there.

How do we know Eline is really pregnant?  We only have her word.

[bellamarie]

Halycon,  

And Eline.  She is older than Erland and could easily have seduced him because she was so unhappy with an old man for a husband.

It makes no mention Eline is older than Erlend, if anything I think it mentions Erlend is much older than Kristin, is he not thirty-five and Kristin is but seventeen?  

Eline it seems is quite beautiful regardless of her age:

pg. 204  Kristin had never seen a woman with such great eyes; they were dark brown, round and hard; but under the narrow coal-black eyebrows and the long lashes they were strangely beautiful against her golden hair.  The skin of her cheeks and lips was chafed and raw from her ride in the cold, but it could it could not spoil her much; she was too fair for that.  The heavy riding-dress covered up her form, but she bore herself in it as does only a woman most proud and secure in the glory of a fair body.  She was scarce as tall as Kristin; but she held herself so well that she seemed yet taller than the slender, spare-limbed girl.

Halcyon,  

I don't think Erland, just because he's a man, should be looked at as a sexual predator.

It seems from what Eline says, Erlend came wooing her when she was still married, and she was still a maid:

pg. 207 "What will you do,"  she said, "if Erlend one day grow weary of you, and offers to wed you to his serving-man?  Will you do his will in that as well?"  Kristin made no answer.  Then the other laughed, and said; "You do his will in all things now, I well believe.  What think you, Kristin__shall we throw dice for our man, we too paramours of Erlend Nikulausson?"  When no answer came, she laughed again and said:  "Are you so simple, that you deny not you are his paramour?"  "To you I care not to lie,"  said Kristin.  "Twould profit you but little if you did." answered Eline, still laughing. "I know the boy too well.  He flew at you like a black-cock, I trow, the second time you were together. "Tis pity of you too, fair child that you are."  Kristin's cheeks grew white.  Sick with loathing, she said low; "I will not speak with you__"  "Think you he is like to deal with you better than with me?"  went on Eline.  Then Kristin answered sharply:  "No blame will I ever cast on Erlend, whatever he may do.  I went astray of my own will__I shall not whimper or wail if the path lead out to the rocks__."  Eline went silent for a while.  Then she said unsteadily, flushing red:  "I was a maid too, when he came to me, Kristin__even though I had been wife in name to the old man for seven years.  But like enough you could never understand what the misery of that life was."  

I think both Eline and Erlend are two untrustworthy people, although I tend to believe Eline more, because we have seen the actions of Erlend throughout the beginning of his meeting Kristin.  Eline was correct in saying, he came at her like a black-cock the second time.    I was shocked at how quickly Erlend had sex with Kristin.  Erlend did not keep his promise to Eline when he came after her while she was married, after she had his first child, and he continued the affair for ten years.  She even mentions she and Erlend had relations in the summer of this year.  Lady Aashild even tells him it is hard to believe his word because of his actions.

As for Eline being pregnant, I guess we have to take her at her word, since we have nothing to dispute it now that she is dead, and Erlend believes her:

pg. 206  Erlend turned up to her a face besmeared with wretchedness.  "She is with child," he said, and shut his eyes.

Eline sums it all up in her talk to Kristin.  She sees Kristin is young, she has been taken in by Erlend's charm, just as Eline was.  As for Kristin enjoying being with Erlend, on the contrary, she cries, and she feels she has sinned.  That is not blissful happiness, or unrequited love.  Yes, her sexual awareness has come to light, but it is sad a person like Erlend is the one to be her first.  I haven't seen this as a girl going into the sexual revolution.  Other women back in those days, I am sure had sex outside of marriage, prostitution was not rare, paramours/concubines, were not rare.  What this is, is a young virgin, who has been duped by a very much older, experienced man, who refuses to step up and take any responsibility for his past and present wrongs.  Kristin has seen the red flags, it is not so much her love for Erlend, as it is her selfish stubborn pride, that causes her to refuse to see Erlend's wrongs.  

Now Kristin is going to take on the heavy sin, of being a part in Eline's death, and bringing down Bjorn, by allowing Lady Aashild to bring him into covering this all up, just to save Erlend's skin:

pg. 211 Bjorn says, "And you think that, whether or no, 'tis all over with me?"  he said slowly. "Or think you there is so much left of the man I once was that I dare be forsworn to save that boy there from going down to ruin?  I that was dragged down myself__all those years ago.  Dragged down, I say,"  he repeated"

"Every word you have heard is true," said Kristin.  "We threatened her til she did it."

Well this sure does not give much hope for an ending of.....And they lived happily ever after.

[bellamarie]

For some reason I was just able to see Stella's post.  Very interesting.  

Stella,

 I can't find it in myself to like this character, as my Dad used to say "Handsome is as handsome does"!

I'm pretty sure that is the message Lavrans was trying to convey to Kristin in his own fatherly words.  I fear her youth, and being smitten by this handsome cunning older man, is clouding her good judgement

I can not find myself liking Erlend either.  

I like how you point out the differences in Kristin"s and Erlend's oaths to each other.  She commits herself to him completely, he....not so much. As you pointed out he says, "in keeping with the law" before any other woman comes into his arms.   Hmmm....before any other woman comes into his arms.  Well, we all know how quickly he let Kristin come into his arms.  His word is worth little, in my opinion.

[bellamarie]

We only have 48 pages left of The Bridal Wreath.  The book I got from the library has all three books in it.  Does anyone else have the trilogy, and if so, is anyone considering discussing the other two books?  I would love to, if anyone else is up for it.  There is no way I will be satisfied ending at this book, not knowing what happens beyond The Bridal Wreath.  We seem to be reading this at a pretty fast pace, so I think we could knock off the other two books quite quickly.  I am going to go on reading the other two books regardless.  Think about it, and let me know what you all decide.

PatH., Safe travels!

[PatH]

Bellamarie, you bring up so many good points it's hard to know where to start.

Kristin has seen the red flags, it is not so much her love for Erlend, as it is her selfish stubborn pride, that causes her to refuse to see Erlend's wrongs.

I think we're going to conclude that willful stubbornness is Kristin's big flaw.  However, I think she does see his wrongs, but rationalizes them.

It's hard to figure out the true story of Erlend and Eline, since they're both liars.  She tells Kristin she was a maid when Erlend had her, but Erlend says "She's said that so often that she believes it herself.  Do you remember when you made me go to Sigurd with that lie, Eline, and he produced witnesses that he had caught you with another man?"

It does say somewhere that Eline is older than Erlend.  Anyway, she would have to be, since she had been married for seven years when she seduced the eighteen year old boy.

[PatH]

Are we going to continue with the other two books?  That's up to all of you.  I thought I'd take a vote when we're almost done with the next section.  There are three possibilities: we can continue an in-depth discussion of the sort we've been doing, we can be less formal, but still meet here to talk about it, or we can go our separate ways and gobble up the rest of the books on our own.

If we continue here, I think maybe we should go even faster than we have been, but that's up to you.  It's tricky setting speeds, because some people are slower readers or busier than others, and you have to set an average that doesn't make the fast ones impatient or make it hard for the busy ones to catch up.

[bellamarie]

I guess we just can't believe anything that comes for either Erlend or Eline's mouth.  They both say what best suits their own selfish purposes, and be damned with who gets in their way.   

I agree, if we go on with the other two books, we could go at a faster pace.  We can always ask if everyone is ready to go on, as we have this book.  A less formal format sounds good to me.

[Halcyon]

Like Bellamarie I can't see us ending with The Wreath.  I'm willing to go on.  I think we can read faster.  It's easy reading and certainly easy to get caught up in the story.  Should we finish up with this book?

[BarbStAubrey]

OK I am thinking we can read to like or not like various characters as they do or do not match our values of right and wrong  - However, I am struggling to think that an author writing before WWII writes a story just to shock us. Yes, after WWII we were so numbed and shocked by the unimaginable that literature became a vehicle to shock.  Or, that a writer before WWII would turn the main character into a selfish person without it making some meaning in the story - I am having a difficult time seeing these characters as good or bad using our own value system when we know in Norway Kristin is idolized with a statue to this fictional character.

And so I am thinking there is a pattern here that is up to us, the reader to deduce - there is something about the behavior of these main characters that represent either a cultural value system or a cultural war or maybe even as a Norwegian, their behavior would be ringing as characteristics of early Norwegian cultural Icons and we are at a disadvantage not intimately knowing these Iconic personalities.

For instance - St. Olaf, was King of Norway from 1015 to 1028 - he was canonized as a Saint a year after his death - even though in Norway it seems his name is on every other building etc. because St. Olaf, like our George Washington, St. Olaf is the symbol of Norway's national independence and pride. By today's standards he would be considered as brutal and violent as ISIS and his sexual preference is even worse than those in our story since St. Olaf, made a saint by the Pope, married his illegitimate daughter and the half-sister of his former fiancée.

Do you understand he married his own daughter that he had as a result of relations with the mother of his fiancée because his wife is her half sister. This is the man who is the national icon representing independence and pride for Norway to this day. No George Washington who the legend said that he would not lie after cutting down his father's favorite cherry tree. George Washington was a general but not like General Qasem Soleimani of ISIS much less Saint Olaf (I just find his sainthood ironic so do not mind me) anyhow back to George versus Olaf  - George had slaves but was married to one women Martha and he, with all his heroic behavior never became a saint but stands for our ideals that we value.

I think all of us here in this discussion have very strong moral values that contribute mightily to our ability to love others, be kind, be responsible to our family, community and nation and it is a joy to realize I am reading with a group of people that have such strong loving values - however, we are reading literature that is not matching our values and I think we need to read this book at arms length to get what the author is bringing to us -

If what Kristin is doing with her life in this story is offensive, we will learn that as we read and if it is not brought out as offensive than it has a meaning that is going over our heads - so far, like all of you, I have read too many books that the story went over my head forcing me to dig in and learn more about the culture and time in history - this story may have been written before WWII and in the twentieth century but it is supposed to be a well researched book about the Middle Ages in Norway - this author has written so many more books than I imagined and she is known to have one of the best backgrounds about the Middle Ages in Norway - so much so she was awarded the Nobel Prize. Also, we have scholars researching not just to bring out the sins and faults of Saint Olaf but to find what he did bring to the people that they see in him the soul of Norway.

And so, I am thinking we can be astonished and see the differences between our moral values and what we are reading - where as I think to get the most from this book we need to dig in and see how the behavior of these characters still play out today or deduce what the behavior could represent much as we see the behavior of war in war novels, not just as the brutal violence it is but as the over arching meaning of conflict, the use of and mis-use of power and the feeling of 'right' by conquest or culture or religion.  

[StellaMaris]

I'm a newcomer, but have to say I'm game to read and discuss the rest of the trilogy. I'm reading it anyway; I couldn't just leave these characters at the nadir of their story and am sure there is a gleam of hope for them in some fashion.

I remember reading that the author was a couple years away from her controversial conversion to Catholicism when she wrote this and wonder if threads of that process might be found in the story....

[PatH]

Yes, Barb, in addition to our own values, we have to consider both the values of 1920s Norway, when the book was written, and those of 14th century Norway, plus trying to appreciate what Undset herself is saying.  Also, Kristin is now only 17, and the book is going to cover pretty much her whole life.  We can presume that many of the characters will evolve or change in that time.

We've learned something of the values of Kristin's time.  Women of her class were expected to be virgins at marriage, and faithful thereafter.  Married men were expected to be faithful too, though I think not as much as women.  Adultery was extremely disapproved of.  For instance, Erlend can't possibly make his children by Eline his heirs, though he could have done so if they were merely illegitimate.  What's harder to know is how strictly these values were held.

[PatH]

I don't feel Kristin is indifferent to the pain she is causing her parents.  Far from it--she is very unhappy that she's doing so, but she feels she has to stick to her guns.  Why? Because this is the only way she can take charge of her own life?  Because she is driven by her blind passion for Erlend?

I found the end of chapter 4 very touching.  At the end of a conversation with her father, Kristin realizes she has worn her father down, and he will no longer oppose her.  That night, he wakes her up to show her the breaking of the long freeze--the singing of the wind, the warm rain, the rumbling snow sliding away.

"Kristin reached for her father's hand and held it.  He had called her and wanted to show her this.  It was the kind of thing he would have done in the past, before things changed between them.  And now he was doing it again."

[PatH]

Barb, I hadn't realized how bad Saint Olaf had been.  He was a Viking, and Vikings were considered exceptionally brutal by others, even in that very brutal age; certainly totally beyond the pale by our standards.  But even then, his sexual behavior was waaay out of bounds.

[PatH]

StellaMaris, you posted while I was writing.

I remember reading that the author was a couple years away from her controversial conversion to Catholicism when she wrote this and wonder if threads of that process might be found in the story....

Good thought.  Let's look for that.

[BarbStAubrey]

StellaMaris so glad you are sticking with us for this read - it is one of the more difficult that we have tackled in awhile with so much to swallow-

Pat ah yes, such a sweet bit of language to let us see the father's observation of beauty in nature and in his daughter.

To your earlier post - what I read it is not so much a moral issue about adultery as much as it is about passing on the family wealth and more, the purity of blood lines - especially among those families considered leaders of a community or the nation - the purity of blood line is still a huge factor among the tribes in the Middle East to this day where as most western nations were only keeping their royals marrying within and even that has gone by the boards among the royals in England, Denmark, Monaco, and the Netherlands introducing 'commoners' into the family.

I think earlier we found something that explained how one of England's earlier kings had two children that were excluded from wearing the crown upon his death because they were conceived before the legal betrothal to his queen.

From what I have read so far, we too easily mix love and sex with marriage where as they were very separate and more often sex was a duty for both men and women in a marriage that appears to be more about the distribution of wealth.

Hard to wrap your head around - I have a book someplace about courtly love that I need to pull out. Not sure if courtly love was part of the culture in earlier Norwegian history as it was in France and Italy and to some extent in England but what I do remember reading it was about young men falling in love with older married ladies and only married ladies were recipients of love - part of the expression of love was a young man being so bowled over he would noticeably, as a badge of honor, starve himself in addition to writing poetry and music.