Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online

[marcie]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week  2: Through Chapter 16:
The Game's Afoot!

1. What an exciting section! So many clues, so many mysteries!! What do you want to talk about first?
2. Who do you think was in the blue and white sailboat?
3. What cult do you think Iusta belongs to?
4. What is the meaning of the three squares, first at the table and then in the mail? Who do you think is sending them?
5. What do you think is Maria's real interest in the project?
6. How many themes of rebirth and resurrection are there in this section?
7. Can you shed some light on any of the following?
----Parthenope
----Agrai Mysteries
----Oxyrhynchus Project
----Petronii
----The Sibyl of Cumae
----Isis/ Apuleius
----Wilhelmina Jashemski

8. This would make a great movie. Who would you cast in the parts? Who do you see as Simon, John Lyros, Elgin and Sophie particularly?
9. How would you characterize the atmosphere on Capri?
10. What do you think John Lyros is actually after?
11. What did you like best in this section?
12. "We're all hungry for ritual, to experience something beyond the banality of everyday life, to stand outside of ourselves..." (Simon on page 150).  When you think about it, who in this book is NOT in this condition? Why?
13. "Of course, " George says of the poppy  on page 159, "just where Phineas finds it. Somehow was playing a little joke on you."

Who is the jokester here? Who is sending a poppy just where Phineas found it? Somebody who knows the story and the house.  Who gains the most from replicating the Phineas story? WHAT is there TO replicate and why?
14.  If you all had to bet on WHO at this point is the most sinister, who would get your vote? There is a tetraktys member among the group--who is it? (Pat)

--------Lyros: ginny
--------Agnes: bellamarie
--------Agnes: JudeS
--------Maria: PatH
15. How would the book have been different if they had waited to read the scrolls? Why did they not? (Sandy)
16. "Red symbolized the color of the underworld.  Who left it on the statue??  What does it portend?" (countrymm)
17. How many operatives ARE there in this thing? Who are the good cops, who are the bad cops? Who is the sacrifice intended to be and why? Isn't Phineas a man? Why not pick a man? Who is leaving the cards? Why can't that person simply leave a message in English?
18.  When he asked her what  the sibyl said she said "She said nothing.  She scribbled on a leaf three sentences:
Poseidon will enact his wrath.

The sea will take back what belongs to it.
The maiden shall be returned to her mother."

Is that Pythagorean, that 1-2-3?

Is that like the 3 questions that the Tetrkys ask themselves daily? (Andrea)

The Rape of Persephone
Bernini 1621-24.
 Rome (Villa Borghese)

Schedule Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14 Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22 Chapters 25-End for  June 23 - 30

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Interesting Links NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 Carol Goodman Homepage The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) Cult  (submitted by Marcie) Real or Fictional ? Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants

Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny

Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.




New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!

[Deems]

Andrea--No fair!  You do the two easy ones--mother and child and fish and leave me BOAT?

I'll try to come up with something.  Meanwhile contact your son.  Just in case.   

[Deems]

Boat--top of my head.  Many of the disciples were fishermen--come with me and I will make you fishers of men.    Jesus winds up on a boat, several times--when he walked on the water and when the storm came up and the disciples had to wake him because they were terrified.  That time he calmed the storm. 

[Deems]

Boat with Link to more about boat.

Yes, boat/ship was an early symbol of the church.  There's a cool drawing of a ship at this site http://www.jesuswalk.com/christian-symbols/ship.htm as well as other information, such as a comparison to Noah's ark and Jesus with the disciples on the boat on the Sea of Galilee, etc.

Next time I get the easy symbols.  I'm making myself a note.

[PatH]

Gumtree, I loved the food descriptions, too, especially the tomatoes.  However, being somewhat food-obsessed, I noticed that on page 122 lunch is "a delicious pasta dish with a sauce made from eggplants, sardines, and raisins" and on page 146 the pasta course for supper is "a thin spaghetti prepared with the delicious anchovy and eggplant sauce that I had for lunch yesterday".  I can't help it; I think along those lines.

Pedln, it was a Canon PowerShot A540 digital camera.  It has a wildflower setting, which I used, dunno just what it does, and sets the rest automatically, in this case 1/400 sec at f/5.5 (the sun was really bright).

Deems, I totally agree that we are not getting an objective picture of Elgin from Sophie, but any professor who seduces his TAs has a lot of redeeming to do before I could think well of him.

[JudeS]

Hmmm.  I always thought of Isis and Osiris as Egyptian Deities.  Seeing as you all see them as Greco-Roman deities I went in search of the reason for this discrepancy.  Here is an iota of the tons of material I read.  I tried to choose the facts that relate in some way to the material in our book.

Isis was an ancient Egyptian Goddess who much later spread to the Graeco-Roman world. She was worshipped as the ideal mother and goddess of fertility. and the friend of slaves, sinners and the downtrodden. In much later myths she had a brother Osirus who became her husband.  They had a son, Horus.

She is also known  as the Goddess of simplicity from whom all begginnings arose and was lady of bread, beer and green fields. The worship of Isis continued in the Greco-Roman world continuing until the suppression of Paganism in the Christain Era.  She had her own temple in Pompei.

Isis's original headress was that of a thrown. She is an important representation of the Pharoahs power. There are pictures of pharoah sitting on Isis lap.
Throughout the Roman-Greco world Isis became one of the most significant of the MYSTERY RELIGIONs and many classicalwriters refer to her temples, cults and rites.
The articles delve into the use of knots and magical powers. But I will add only one more interesting fact:  Duriing the Roman period the rose was used in her worship turning rose production into an important industry 

   

 

[Deems]

Pat H--I agree that no professor should seduce a student (or respond to a student's advances, for that matter) BUT do we have anyone's word--other than Sophie's--that Elgin seduced anyone other than her?  And do we know, even, that he was the one who did the seducing??

[PatH]

BUT do we have anyone's word--other than Sophie's--that Elgin seduced anyone other than her?  And do we know, even, that he was the one who did the seducing??[/b]

Right, Deems, we only have Sophie's word for everything, and she isn't a reliable witness.

On page 15, Odette says "I'm not sure going to Italy with Professor Romeo is the best thing for that girl (Agnes)", suggesting Elgin has a reputation.

On page 52, Elgin, trying to persuade Sophie to come to Italy, says  "So what about it?  You know you want to."  Sophie: "It's unfortunate that he's using the same words he used five years ago to seduce me."  That makes him seem to be the seducer, but it could be out of context.

Since everything is filtered through Sophie, we still don't know.

[countrymm]

Pedln, I agree with you regarding John Lyros.  I don't see him as particularly ominous, but maybe HE was the member from Tet (Tetraktys).

[ALF43]

Deems- GOOD GRIEF, STOP WHINING!  It IS NOT POLITE.  I DON'T OFTEN GET A CHOICE when you guys gang up on me with YOUR therories.
--- and frankly how the heck would she know who else Elgin or Ely of John or any of them seduced?  She is being seduced by Phineas at the moment (in her studies.)

Countrymm- that seems to be the problem, we are each one us, all over the place with these characters.  (Isn't it fun, guessing & speculating, who might be who(m)??

Who IS that masked man that sits quietly?  

Jude- why do you thing that she is important in our discussion?  Why has the author included her?

[Deems]

ALF43--Not whining, just grumbling.  Next time don't leave me with the boat.  Unless it's a nice cabin cruiser.  Or a yacht.  A yacht would be nice, very nice.

Pat H--Good point about Odette and her instructions, but doesn't she say that when she's an hallucination?  I can't look it up easily because I'm reading the book on Kindle.  Wait a minute, if it's as early as p. 15, I guess it's the real Odette and not the hallucinated one.

[PatH]

Right, Odette says it when they're fussing around with coffee before the ill-fated interview session starts.

[Gumtree]

yes - Odette's comment about "Professor Romeo' may only refer to his liaison with Sophie and not to other students...and was Sophie his student at the time or was she on staff.

PatH I loved the anchovies and sardines too....Our  Fremantle sardines are really something else - large, juicy and so so tasty after a moment or two on the grill. Not so keen on the garum though - didn't Ginny put up an ancient recipe for a garumsauce that would turn anyone off forever - I seem to recall that the fishy mixture had to be left in the hot sun for a few days...ugh!

[bellamarie]

Andrea, I will help out with the boat.  In Ovid's Metamorphoses he talks about the flood and says,
"Save few that by the help of boats atteyned unto him."  Noah's ark.

I spent the day researching Poseidon,  watched the Little Mermaid movie for the first time in its entirety, and read Ovid's Metamorphoses for the first time.

Ovid pretty much follows the doctrine of the Catholic faith in his poem.  He denounces all the gods and goddesses, all the Sibyls, Mythology and even pretty much Pythagoras.  He states there is but one God who created all things.  He covers Genesis, all the virtues, and to sum it up without doing him any disrespect or injustice to his great work, he follows the teachings of the Bible.  He says to stay your faith in God, and I like this particularly.."of vertue heere have after death an everlasting crowne...."

Now for Poseidon and the Little Mermaid they are in unison with the battle for power.  Triton is the King of the sea and ruler of mer people.  Triton is a merman (half fish/half man) he has a trident (spear with 3 points) that is his power and magic.  Poseidon has the same trident and uses it to destroy and kill things.  

King Triton (Sea king and ruler of Mer people) was the father of Ariel, he carried his trident (3 pronged magic spear) with him.  Ariel was 16 years old and headstrong, wanted to live on the land, be human and marry a human.  Ariel swims above the sea and sees a ship with Prince Eric on it.  A lightening bolt hits the ship during a hurricane and causes a fire. Eric falls into the water after getting hit and is drowning.  Ariel saves him and sings while he is unconscious. Ariel returns to the sea and sings of wanting to live on land and falling in love with Eric.  Ursula the (sea witch) used to live in the Palace and was exiled.  She wanted to outsmart Triton so she could gain his crown and trident so she will become the Queen of the sea. Ursula sees Ariel has fallen in love with Eric and says, “Its too easy she is in love.”  Ariel swims to Ursula, Ursula has magic potion to make Ariel human. She makes an agreement with Ariel that she will make her human and Ariel has 3 days to get Prince Eric to fall in love with her and kiss her or she returns to being a mermaid.  Ursula knew Triton would come to save Ariel because he loved his daughter.  To make it more difficult Ursula takes Ariel's voice from her so she can not sing and Prince Eric will not know who she is.  Ariel goes on land, Prince Eric seems to be falling in love with her so Ursula changes herself into a fair maiden and uses Ariel's voice to trick Eric into thinking she is the one he heard singing and the one who saved him from drowning when he jumped off the burning ship. Just before the vows are finished the sea creatures and Scuddle swoop down and cause the necklace to fall off of Ursula’s neck turning her back into the sea witch.  Ariel has run out of time and is turned back into a mermaid, captive of Ursula.  When Triton learns of what has happened he  agrees to give Ursula what she wants to set Ariel free.  Prince Eric’s ship jams into Ursula and the trident falls to the bottom of the ocean and the shell necklace falls and breaks into pieces destroying Ursula, giving Ariel back her voice.  Ariel is returned to the sea and her father.  King Triton gets his trident back and then decides to make Ariel human again so she can marry Prince Eric, realizing her happiness must come before his.  After they are married,  King Triton surfaces to the boat, hugs Ariel and uses his trident to make a rainbow.  Eric and Ariel kiss.  You hear a narrator say, “I just don’t see how a world that makes such wonderful things could be bad.”

research on Poseidon
http://ezinearticles.com/?Acropolis---The-Contest-Between-Athena-and-Poseidon&id=945743

Acropolis - The Contest Between Athena and Poseidon

Despite the close connection between the goddess and the city, it was believed that Athena had once been forced to compete to win her pre-eminent position. In the time of the first king, Kekrops, the god Poseidon, discontented with his dominion over the seas, and jealous of the authority his brother Zeus exercised over the land, was determined to extend his own influence. One day he appeared on the Acropolis to demonstrate his power and usefulness to the citizens. In the presence of the king and people, he struck a great blow with his trident on the rock, and a saltwater spring gushed out. At that point, the goddess Athena appeared and caused an olive tree to emerge out of the ground. As it grew to maturity and fruitfulness in front of their eyes, she explained the many ways in which its fruit could be useful to them. Kekrops and his people were so impressed that they pledged their loyalty to Athena.

Angry and humiliated, Poseidon challenged Athena to single combat, but Zeus intervened to keep the peace, appointing the gods as arbiters. All the gods supported Poseidon, while the goddesses each voted for Athena. As their president, Zeus was obliged to remain neutral, leaving the goddesses with a majority of one; and so the city was awarded to Athena.

The resentful sea-god caused a disastrous flood on the plain, and in order to conciliate him, the men of Athens decided no longer to be known by their mothers' names, as had been the custom in the past, but to use their fathers' names instead. They also deprived the women of all their civic rights: even of the right to call themselves Athenians.

So much like the battle Triton had with Ursula, Poseidon had with Athena.  Each wanted power of the sea or land.

http://wyvern.k-o.org/ballestrini.k/K-O_Classics/Classical_Mythology_files/poseidon%20reading.pdf

This site is much like the book of Genesis.  It goes through the genealogy of Pontus and his wife Ge (Oceanides) who bore a son Nereus (old man of the sea and had a gift of prophecy) who  mated with Doris (Nerieds) who bore 50 daughters 3 of these mermaids were important: Thetis (changed into a variety of shapes) bore, Achilles...Amphitrite wife of Poseidon (mermans) bore Triton (blew a conch shell known as trumpeter of the sea)he could change at will.

Theory he (Poseidon) was a male spirit of fertility, a god of earth who sent up springs.  Poseidon mated with Demeter in the form of a Stallion he persuaded her while she was looking for her daughter and her ruse changing into a mare to escape him thus have the union of the male and female powers of the fertility of the earth.  Poseidon's Roman name is Neptune.  There is a picture at this site showing Poseidon on Triton holding his trident while Triton blows his conch shell its Ovid's description of the flood.

Poseidon made advances to Scylla, Amphitrite became jealous and threw magic herbs in Scylla's bathing place thus Scylla was transformed into a terrifying monster encircled with a ring of dogs' heads.  Ovid's different version of Scylla's transformation (Metamorphoses) Glaucus a mortal who had been changed into a sea-god fell in love with Scylla, when he was rejected, he turned to the sorceress Circe for help.  Circe fell in love with him and in her jealousy, poisoned the waters of Scylla's bathing place.  

This makes me wonder....Elgin was rejected by Sophie, did her turn to Agnes on the rebound?  Is Agnes going to take Sophie to the swimming place and poison her out of jealousy?  

Is the Catholic church concerned if the Initial Stages of Creation of Pontus and Ge are on the scrolls it could cause controversy with the Bible's book of creation Genesis?  If Plato's Pythagorean theory is on the scrolls this too could cause the church concern and if the Sibylline Books are in the scrolls that would cause concern.  What if there were scrolls of records of the homosexual activities of the Vatican priests and cardinals?

In the story of Little Mermaid, Poseidon, Metamorphoses there is a flood.  Is there going to be a hurricane in Night Villa?  The common denominator in all of these is a rebirth and new generations.  Also control of the sea.  Control of the seas, particularly the Mediterranean, was key to power.

The three clues the Sibyl wrote on the leaves can be found in all these stories:
Poseidon will enact his wrath.......I see a flood coming!
The sea will take back what belongs to it.....I think he sea represents God will take back what belongs to him.
The maiden shall be returned to her mother...Mermaid was returned to her father, but is Iusta going to be returned to Vitalis the suit was ruled in her favor?  Is Sophie going to be killed and return to her mother?

In Ovid's Metamorphoses its title is also "The Epistle" meaning the Bible
Ovid says.."So long is Christ our God as wee in Christian life proceed."  

Sorry this was so lengthy.  

Ciao for now..............................

[Gumtree]

JudeS: Thanks for filling in about the Egyptian goddess Isis. I had no time yesterday to post all her background so just concentrated on what I saw as pertinent to our story. I was trying to point to the early Christians who may have adapted the ancient Isis worship to the veneration of Mary and Child which might explain Iusta's disappearance in to the house with symbols which we associate with Christianity.

Glad Deems came to the rescue with the boat symbol - I didn't get to that either...

[Steph]

Alf, that is brave. I am afraid I would be the first under the table if someone came in waving a gun. Guns make me really uncomfortable. I live in Florida and I hate it when we are out in public and you can see someone has a carry permit and has the gun in a holster and I am not talking of policemen here.
I thought that the FBI was interested in the cult for the normal cult activities..not anything to do with the journey.. But then I am probably wrong.
Hang in there Joan, I read the book for fun..

[Mippy]

Deems ~ Thanks for the link to the boat symbol  in Christianity.   I understood about loaves and fishes, but had forgotten about fishermen.   Were many of the followers of Jesus fishermen?  That surprised me, since there is not much fishable water in the Holy Land except for the Sea of Galilee.  We ate marvelous fresh fish (St. Peter's fish) at an outdoor restaurant at that seashore in 1966.
                                          
Here's a link: http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/Default.aspx?tabid=27&ArticleID=1852                          
The image of the cross being hidden as part of the structure of a boat seems obscure to me, but possible.  Early Christians were certainly hated by both Romans and some of the orthodox Jews.    
                                                            
I've been posting less than many others, since I cannot spend all day on this book, or even half a day, as Bellamarie posted.   But go, girl, your research is laudable!

I do not like the line of thought (forgot whose post that was) who postulated that Sophie made up the fact that her professor made sexual advances to her.  Folks, that's the type of reasoning that made it difficult to prosecute rapists in the old pre-DNA days.   Prosecutors should believe a woman who says that something happened to her.   No wonder Sophie warned Agnes to beware.  

[joangrimes]

Thanks to those of you who think I am smart enough to read the book.

 Steph,  I am glad that you are reading the book for fun.  I am not a classical scholar and have never cared much for the study of mythology.  I don't have anyhing really good to say about this book right now. So I think I will just stay out of the discussion.  I might finish the book though.  I will finish it if I can find the time.   That is said tongue-in-cheek because I have such an empty life. I am always hunting something to fill my time.

Joan Grimes

[pedln]

JoanG, you are definitely smart enough to read this book.  In French as well as English, and you probably know more about the art and antiquity in it than a great many of us.

Please forgive me if I’m repeating here.  Just trying to zero in on Pythagoras and the Pythagoreans in answer to Andy’s question about the 1 – 2- 3.  (I tried to search the discussion, but only one post came up.) Judging from Google, one could spend a lifetime studying Pythagoras alone.  I'm just trying to break it down.

So in simple form, what have I learned on this morning’s hunt --

The world can be explained by numbers
They believed in opposites – limit/unlimited,  male/female,  good/bad
They didn’t eat meat or beans

Time now to stop, but what caught my eye –from Sacred Texts

"The Pythagoreans indeed go farther than this, and honour even numbers and geometrical diagrams with the names and titles of the gods. Thus they call the equilateral triangle head-born Minerva and Tritogenia, because it may be equally divided by three perpendiculars drawn from each of the angles. So the unit they term Apollo, as to the number two they have affixed the name of strife and audaciousness, and to that of three, justice. For, as doing an injury is an extreme on the one side, and suffering one is an extreme on the on the one side, and suffering in the middle between them. In like manner the number thirty-six, their Tetractys, or sacred Quaternion, being composed of the first four odd numbers added to the first four even ones, as is commonly reported, is looked upon by them as the most solemn oath they can take, and called Kosmos." (Isis and Osiris.)

OK, it was "justice" that caught my eye -- for Iusta?

________________________

I keep wanting to mention -- there have been references here earlier to homosexuality, mainly, if I remember correctly, to Simon and John.  This puzzles me as I don't see this in the reading.  There was one allusion by Maria in response to a comment  by Simon, but that's all.

Steph, Where is the RV going this trip?  Have fun.

[ALF43]

Joan you are an art scholar and a damned good one.  If I had time on my hands to spare I would be forever in the galleries.  
Go ahead and finish the book, you will be happy that you did.

Bellemarie- you had better go take a nap.  Holy smokes, girl, you must be exhausted in and out of these boats, into Genesis and out of the New Testament.  This says it all.

Each wanted power of the sea or land.

See what you started Deems

Watch out Jude, here I come.  I want to change my name to Isis.

She is also known  as the Goddess of simplicity from whom all begginnings arose and was lady of bread, beer and green fields.

Yep, I shall now be called Isis.
Mippy- that's a good question, let's see Matthew was a tax collector, Mark was a teacher,, Luke a physician.  John, the Baptist, was a fisherman as the two brothers Barnabus and what's his name.  You know what, I'm just showing my ignorance here.  I will call my son, unless Deems can help me out.
My guess is that 3-4 of these apostles were fisherman. Whatever -- (as the kids say) the fact remains that boats were important.

Mippy you worte

I do not like the line of thought (forgot whose post that was) who postulated that Sophie made up the fact that her professor made sexual advances to her.  Folks, that's the type of reasoning that made it difficult to prosecute rapists in the old pre-DNA days.   Prosecutors should believe a woman who says that something happened to her.   No wonder Sophie warned Agnes to beware.  
 

I don't think that Sopie ever made up that fact, did she?  Sophie had an afair with him.  Period!  That was her choice!  He was a throwback after Ely abandoned her.  She knows that he is a Don Juan type, flirting outrageously but he doesn't strike me as a rapist.  Did I miss something there?

[ALF43]

Pedln- thank you for that but I am still ignorant about these messages and the importance of these #s.  The minute I get my "head around it" I lose it again to another thought.
I guess that accounts for everything- the world can be explained in #s
My math skills are slim to NONE.

I agree, I didn't see any overt displays of homosexuality either.

[bellamarie]

Okay I just want to clarify, I did not spend the entire day at my research and posting for those who seem to think I don't have anything better to do with my life.  I enjoyed much time with my son, daughter in law and two beautiful grandsons.  I visited with  my sister and my other daughter in law, so as far as taking a break I had a lovely day off from my very busy in home day care, which is rare.  I enjoyed watching the Little Mermaid which I had never done, learned so very much interesting information about Poseidon, and love the fact I now can understand Ovid's Metamorphoses.  I thought the information would be of help.

For me I am a writer.  I am used to spending much time in research, deep thought and putting together my thoughts and creating.  I don't think that appears to be a reason for seeming to have no life or needing a break.  Sometimes for writers and artists of any kind, that is our break, as our dear Gumtree the painter will attest to.

I enjoy these book discussions not only because I am able to share knowledge, but also because I am able to gain knowledge, not only from the books we read but from each of you whether you are a professor, traveler, homemaker, etc.  I don't really feel anyone of us need to be a scholar to enjoy the interaction of the discussion with people from all over the world.  Some people read for the pure joy of the story, others like to delve far beyond the surface.  Which ever brings you the enjoyment of reading is a treasure to cherish.

Ciao for now...........................

[ALF43]

Bellamarie- None of us ever in a million years thought that that is all you have to do with your time.  We appreciate your contributions and your links to all of this additional information.  In fact, I love it.  It helps me learn and encourages me to tie things in.  
I think that each one of us feel a connection here, a comraderie so to speak.  
This is what I call "MY TIME!"  Man, if I wanted to spend all day (and I have, believe me) researching and posting I damned well will do it!  
Ask my husband, he'll just roll his eyes.  I've learned that I am allowed to spend the day if I please.
We all have family and the beauty of being at this stage in life (IMHO) is that I can either tend to them or NOT!

I

don't really feel anyone of us need to be a scholar to enjoy the interaction of the discussion with people from all over the world.  Some people read for the pure joy of the story, others like to delve far beyond the surface.  Which ever brings you the enjoyment of reading is a treasure to cherish.

 Hooray for us and hurray for you!

[ALF43]

Ginny will shoot me when she gets back here this afternoon positing another question but:  has anyone come up with the paper dilemma with the 3 cardboard tiles taped onto it?
1. A smiling cresent moon? 
2. a man falling down the stairs?
3. A masked man?

They're all masked men at this point.

Which cult WAS it Ginny asked that Iusta belonged?

Could Maria be the FBI informant?  aha, I hadn't thought of that before. 
she's nervous, isn't she?

[bellamarie]

Andrea,  thank you so much for you post.  My husband too rolls his eyes at times.     He still works full time with overtime hours and has his golf which takes hours, so my pleasure is reading and writing.  What ever makes us happy in our aging years.....

[Gumtree]

Hooray for us - and long may it continue!

I think I might have been the one who said I'd been googling 'half the day' but I was speaking metaphorically - if I don't find something very quickly I give the search up. On the other sometimes a little research leads into unexpected treasure and time stands still.

I love everyone's posts and appreciate the time and effort that sometimes goes into the research just as I love the spontaneity of a quick rejoinder.

To judge from the snippets of personal lives everyone mentions from to time, it seems to me that Seniorlearners are a very diverse group with interesting backgrounds, lifestyles,  and occupations (past and present). I love you all and wouldn't be without you.

JoanG. There's absolutely nothing the matter with your intellectual capacity - I well remember a discussion you led on Irving Stone's biographical novel about Pisarro - brilliant. I'm sorry you're not enjoying Night Villa - I guess it's just not your cup of tea - and if it's not, it's not - read something else....

[Deems]

"This makes me wonder....Elgin was rejected by Sophie, did her turn to Agnes on the rebound?  Is Agnes going to take Sophie to the swimming place and poison her out of jealousy?" --Bellamarie

Bellamarie--I have a problem with this speculation.  Is there any indication, apart from Sophie's fears for Agnes, that Elgin is in pursuit of Agnes?  I haven't found any.  Thanks for all the information on Poseidon.  I've always liked him because I'm a swimmer.  Figure it's best to stay on his good side.  I saw a shark once when swimming in Florida, so it seems to have worked.  So far.

Andy (ALF)--Jesus calls four of the disciples while they are fishing:  Simon Peter, Andrew, James and his brother John.  And John the Baptist was not one of the disciples.  There were several Johns, common name then as now.  Here's the pertinent story:

As Jesus was walking along the sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon and his brother Andrew, fishing with nets in the sea.

Jesus said to them: "Come follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."

They followed Jesus.

As Jesus went a little farther he saw two more brothers fishing, James, son of Zebedee, and his brother, John. They were both in the fishing boat with their father, mending their nets. Jesus called to them.

Great crowds had gathered around Jesus to hear him teach and preach the word of God as he was standing by the Sea of Galilee.

Jesus saw a couple of empty boats near the shore. He got into one of the boats, which belonged to Simon, and asked him to shove the boat a little ways from the shore. Jesus sat in the boat and began teaching to the crowd.

When Jesus was done teaching, he told Simon to get into the boat with his nets and head for deeper waters to put out his nets.

Simon said: "Master we have worked hard all night and have been unable to catch any fish, but if you say so I will put the nets down as you wish."

As soon as Peter did as Jesus had requested, they were filled with many fish, so many that the nets started to tear. They called for their partners in a nearby boat to help. They came and filled up both boats with so many fish that the boats began to sink.

When Simon Peter saw this, he fell down at Jesus’ knees and said:  "Go away from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord."

He was filled with amazement, as was everyone else who saw all the fish that filled the boats. James and John were partners with Simon in the fishing business.

Jesus said to Simon:" Don’t be afraid: From now on you will catch men."

And as soon as they got the boats to shore, they immediately left their nets and their boats and their father and followed Jesus.

Gum--Leaving a fish mixture in the sun several days to make FOOD--garum?? Not much of a fish lover myself, the very idea makes me want to never eat again!  

[Gumtree]

I thought the cross on the boat symbol for Christianity refers to the mast and its crossarms but there are many other connotations. Here's another  link about the Boat as symbol -

Christian boat symbol

[Gumtree]

Deems: Yes, it's enough to put anyone off their tucker - but I'm sure it was Ginny who posted the old recipe...

[bellamarie]

Deems,

Bellamarie--I have a problem with this speculation.  Is there any indication, apart from Sophie's fears for Agnes, that Elgin is in pursuit of Agnes?

I'm not so sure if we are suppose to see it coming.  I posed it as a question, so I suppose I am not altogether certain myself.  I don't trust Agnes.  Elgin to me seems to still have some feelings for Sophie, and if Agnes still has feelings for Elgin then she could be aiming for Sophie with or without Elgin's knowledge.  Jealousy is a wicked weapon.


Gumtree, " I love you all and wouldn't be without you."
Amen, I say to this!   

[Deems]

Gum--We are awake at the same time!  Some of us are up very late.  I must have missed Ginny's recipe.  I tend not to read recipes.  Unless I'm cooking.

Bellamarie--I don't trust Agnes either.

[Gumtree]

ALF: I really haven't got a clue as to the meaning of the tiles of the crescent moon, man falling down the stairs, and the masked man - they really must mean something to somebody...

Maybe the masked man is Zorro ! 

[Gumtree]

Deems and Bellamarie I didn't realise you were both still here together with me...it's 12.01 am on Saturday here and I'm just off to bed.

[Deems]

Gum--We really are exactly 12 hours apart.  Cool.  Pleasant dreams.

[bellamarie]

Gum, sleep tight our little tooth fairy from across the world.  zzzzz

[ALF43]

Gum- while you are sleeping I have started the next section and my own question will then be answered, so i will wait.

Deems- you rock!  OK I admit I was a trifle  off on the fishermen of faith.

Bella- aha "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."  Is that what you're saying about sweet little Agnes?

[winsummm]

isis in egypt was originally IO in Greese, a lovely wood nymph transofrmed into a cow by zeus when confronted by a jealous Hera.  She placed her under guard in a meadow  by with a thousand eyes who never sleeps. who remembers his name.

 Apollo  ?  or was it the trickster ?? in response to zeus' plea  played his harp and told stories until A?? fell asleep and released her, but Hera  had a gadfly biting her and chasing  her all the way around the ionic sea, named for her, to egypt where she finally forgave her and let her assume her natural form only this time as iISIS the queen,  she had little horns adorning the crown she wore.

now who can remember the names that slipped my meandering mind.  it's really getting  tough these days remembering words if not deeds. help help.

claire

[Mippy]

Argus was the guard of Io, who was beloved of Zeus, and of whom his wife, Hera/Juno, was envious.   So Zeus turned Io into a cow in an attempt to fool his wife.

[bellamarie]

Andrea,  

Bella- aha "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."  Is that what you're saying about sweet little Agnes?

Mippy,

Argus was the guard of Io, who was beloved of Zeus, and of whom his wife, Hera/Juno, was envious.   So Zeus turned Io into a cow in an attempt to fool his wife.

Seems it is time to add "jealousy" to the theme.  Many a murders have taken place in the name of jealousy.  Watch out Sophie!  All through history jealousy is an emotion that brings about destruction.

Power and Money is what they are attempting to achieve/possess.  Jealousy and wanting what someone has is the sin of covetting.  
Here's a question to think about............
Can a person truly "LOVE" a person or thing if jealousy is its way of obtaining it and keeping it?  Does one's jealousy cloud the true feeling of love and it turns into want or lust?

Thinking of this made me remember that in Ovid's Metamorphoses he lists the seven deadly sins.  He also points out the virtues and the Ten Commandments, just not in the order as Moses brought down.  He warns of not living a Christ like life.  I have been in a Bible study with my church for going on 5 yrs.  I taught religion classes to first grade for 7 yrs then Confirmation class for 5 yrs. (and no I am not a scholar in theology, a babe in the woods).  It amazed  me how Ovid managed to cover the teachings of our faith in his Metamorphoses.

[ALF43]

Oh dear winsumm- if Isis has been transformed into a cow, I am there.  I am registering higher and higher each time I step on that darned scale.

Jealousy- I don't see that in Agnes Bellem-  I see cunning, but I don't feel the jealousy.
That is a terrible emotion to have to deal with, I know. 

Can a person truly "LOVE" a person or thing if jealousy is its way of obtaining it and keeping it?  Does one's jealousy cloud the true feeling of love and it turns into want or lust?

Well when the green-eyed monster rears its ugly head, the warmth of love, trust and even lust disappear, I think.