Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online

[Deems]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.

(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week  2: Through Chapter 16:
The Game's Afoot!

1. What an exciting section! So many clues, so many mysteries!! What do you want to talk about first?
2. Who do you think was in the blue and white sailboat?
3. What cult do you think Iusta belongs to?
4. What is the meaning of the three squares, first at the table and then in the mail? Who do you think is sending them?
5. What do you think is Maria's real interest in the project?
6. How many themes of rebirth and resurrection are there in this section?
7. Can you shed some light on any of the following?
----Parthenope
----Agrai Mysteries
----Oxyrhynchus Project
----Petronii
----The Sibyl of Cumae
----Isis/ Apuleius
----Wilhelmina Jashemski

8. This would make a great movie. Who would you cast in the parts? Who do you see as Simon, John Lyros, Elgin and Sophie particularly?
9. How would you characterize the atmosphere on Capri?
10. What do you think John Lyros is actually after?
11. What did you like best in this section?
12. "We're all hungry for ritual, to experience something beyond the banality of everyday life, to stand outside of ourselves..." (Simon on page 150).  When you think about it, who in this book is NOT in this condition? Why?
13. "Of course, " George says of the poppy  on page 159, "just where Phineas finds it. Somehow was playing a little joke on you."

Who is the jokester here? Who is sending a poppy just where Phineas found it? Somebody who knows the story and the house.  Who gains the most from replicating the Phineas story? WHAT is there TO replicate and why?
14.  If you all had to bet on WHO at this point is the most sinister, who would get your vote? There is a tetraktys member among the group--who is it? (Pat)

--------Lyros: ginny
--------Agnes: bellamarie
--------Agnes: JudeS
--------Maria: PatH
15. How would the book have been different if they had waited to read the scrolls? Why did they not? (Sandy)
16. "Red symbolized the color of the underworld.  Who left it on the statue??  What does it portend?" (countrymm)
17. How many operatives ARE there in this thing? Who are the good cops, who are the bad cops? Who is the sacrifice intended to be and why? Isn't Phineas a man? Why not pick a man? Who is leaving the cards? Why can't that person simply leave a message in English?
18.  When he asked her what  the sibyl said she said "She said nothing.  She scribbled on a leaf three sentences:
Poseidon will enact his wrath.

The sea will take back what belongs to it.
The maiden shall be returned to her mother."

Is that Pythagorean, that 1-2-3?

Is that like the 3 questions that the Tetrkys ask themselves daily? (Andrea)

The Rape of Persephone
Bernini 1621-24.
 Rome (Villa Borghese)

Schedule Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14 Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22 Chapters 25-End for  June 23 - 30

---

Interesting Links NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 Carol Goodman Homepage The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) Cult  (submitted by Marcie) Real or Fictional ? Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants

Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny

Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.




New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!

Bellamarie--I'm confused, not that it is an unfamiliar condition.     I can't follow some of what you found about Ovid.  So far as I know he knew nothing of Christianity.  What he's best known for is his love stories (some of them pretty graphic).  

I looked up his dates and they come out from 43 BC to c. 17 AD.  Since Jesus didn't die until about 30AD and the Christian faith didn't really spread until Paul came along, I don't see how Ovid could have known anything about Jesus.

[ALF43]

Sorry Deems, I tried to do the heading with my last post, but you will be leading the parade for the rest of this assignment. (At least until the next page comes due.)   

[Deems]

No problem, Andy, I don't mind being on top.   

[bellamarie]

Going back over my notes Ovid says, "of danger.  The oration of Pithagoras implyes.  A sum of all forer woorke.  What person can dvyse."  "He bringeth in Pythagoras disswading men from feare."

Is the danger he speaks of possibly, God being upset with Pythogoras for trying to discredit or take credit for God's creation?  You really don't want to make God angry, we know what he is capable of.  

I keep seeing a great flood about to take place.  Possibly a hurricane.  These two seem to be connecting for me.

"Many are the narthex bearers, but few the Bacchio." vision of Odette and Charles
"Save few that by the help of boats atteyned unto him."  Ovid's Metamorphoses

One last thought before I forget...Night Villa is a book within a book, within a book, etc.
                                                    the Bible is a book within a book, within a book, etc.
                                         Metamorphoses is a book within a book, within a book etc.

Coincidence?  Ely said something about, you usually find it when you are looking for it.  In other words, no coincidences.

Ciao for now....................

[countrymm]

so as far as taking a break I had a lovely day off from my very busy in home day care, which is rare.

Bellemarie, I am in AWE of you.  You do child care at home most of the day?  Aren't you exhausted after all the children leave?  I can see why you love adult conversation and deep thoughts about books.

[countrymm]

Gumtree, I know what you mean when you say "off your tucker".  When I visited Australia, I saw a sign posted outside an elementary school requesting noontime help in the tucker.

[bellamarie]

Deems, this is the site I read the English version of Ovid's Metamorphoses

http://www.elizabethanauthors.com/ovid00.htm

Now, I in NO WAY am familar with Ovid, and never heard of him until this book, so I am taking from this
site?   No love story per se here, all about the way you are to live for God.  He uses the words Christ, mentions him as the Son and uses the words Christian law.   ??  Have I stumbled in a wayward site?  There are various sites I really only checked this one out.  hmmmmm  Help me out Deems, if you can, I trust you, YOU are the professor here.     

[bellamarie]

countrymm,  Yes, I am exhausted at the end of my day.  I have owned my own day care for 10 yrs, after leaving my computer teaching job in an elementary Catholic school for 15. yrs.  I began my business so my grandchildren could have me as their Nonnie, and teacher.  Some days are very hectic, some days light like today, some days in the summer I lose kids so I actually can find a day off during the week.  I have done nothing but teach and care for kids.  Everyone says I am crazy.  Nope, just love what I do.  Especially love naptime and quiet time.  phew..  Just waiting for my kids to stop having babies so I can retire one day. 

[catbrown]

Well, I've mostly been lurking since I've worried that, having already finished the book, I'd give something away or that my perceptions have been influenced by knowing how it all turns out.

But, I'm giving nothing away by commenting on Roman fish sauce (garum) and asking you guys who've been holding your noses, whether you've ever enjoyed Thai food? Vietnamese food? Cambodian food?

Yes? Well, then I guarantee you've consumed garum's modern equivalent, since fermented fish sauce forms the basis on many popular dishes in those cuisines. There's barely a soup, curry or saute that doesn't have a touch of fish sauce to make it shine!

Keep going when you check out this link: it ends with a discussion of garum. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_sauce

[ALF43]

mmm- CATBROWN-I love fish sauce.  Of course I love anchovies as well.

Admittedly, to the contemporary ear the manufacture of garum has a somewhat unattractive sound. But, garum is far from just "rotten fish." Its image as a spoiled, decaying substance is inaccurate and misleading. Enzymic proteolysis is not a bacterial action leading to decay and putrefaction, but one that preserves and eventually dissolves the fish. Similar to other more modern products of fermentation (such as beer, vinegar, cheese, or yogurt), garum can claim counterparts in the still celebrated ancient sauces of nam pla inThailand, tuk trey in Cambodia, and nuos nam in Vietnam. In Italy, as well, contemporary cousins of garum continue to be eaten today.

We now know why the Romans were so fond of this "full-bodied" flavoring: garum contains a high level of glutamate, an amino acid found in all fermented products. The particular taste-enhancing effect of glutamate was originally discovered by Japanese scientist Kikunae Ikada in 1908, and is the key to what gives condiments like garum or Thai fish sauce their widespread appeal.

When attempting to recapture authentic flavor in ancient dishes made with garum, it is important to recognize the large difference between ancient Roman fish sauce and 21st century anchovy paste: using the latter has unhappily sabotaged many otherwise successful recipes. However, there is no need to break out the fish guts and brine. Instead, rather than scare off the neighbors by experimenting with your own garum fermentation processes, pick up a bottle of Vietnamese nuos nam or Thai nam pla fish sauce. For these products, just check out a local Chinese supermarket, or ask for advice from the nearest Thai or Vietnamese restaurant. Then, if you're feeling brave, try giving one of our recipes a whirl!

~~~The Italian Cookbook

[Deems]

"But, I'm giving nothing away by commenting on Roman fish sauce (garum) and asking you guys who've been holding your noses, whether you've ever enjoyed Thai food? Vietnamese food? Cambodian food?

Yes? Well, then I guarantee you've consumed garum's modern equivalent, since fermented fish sauce forms the basis on many popular dishes in those cuisines. There's barely a soup, curry or saute that doesn't have a touch of fish sauce to make it shine!"--catbrown

Oh no, catbrown,  Say not so.  Oh, yuck!!  Surely those fish sauces don't all hang around in the sun for hours???

[Deems]

Bellamarie--You have not stumbled onto a bad site.  It's an excellent site and most interesting.  The problem is you have found the first translation into English of Ovid's Metamorphoses, attributed to Arthur Golding (1567).  Metamorphoses was written in Latin.  

I'll highlight several of the passages and try to show why you thought there was Christian doctrine here.  But it will take me a little time to do it.

Let's start by noticing the date--1567.  Elizabeth I was on the throne of England, Shakespeare was a three-year-old boy, his great plays still ahead of him.  This is the beginning of the Renaissance in England.  It took a century and a half or so to get there from Italy where it had its birth.

Part of the Renaissance was the rediscovery (and translation) of ancient texts in Latin and Greek.  

Because the discovery of classical authors was somewhat suspect, what with their being pagans and all, Golding begins his translation with an "epistle," a letter to Robert, Earl of Leicester.  That first part, the Epistle, isn't Ovid at all.  It's the work of the translator.  

More later, dogs calling.

[catbrown]

Present day fish sauce is made in a fermentation process very much like the ancient Roman one. Read the link in my post, or ALF's excellent post on the same subject.

I think you guys are reacting to garum the way many Chinese must have first reacted to cheese (which used to be unknown in China) ... omigod! stinky, rotten milk, left to get moldy! left in caves for years! yuck! yuck! yuck!

It's all in the eyes (or in this case, tongue) of the beholder (umm, taster).

I hope you all have eaten Thai food? Totally delicious, yes? And full of fish sauce!

[Babi]

  So many posts this morning, I had to leave before I could read them all.
I'm sure I've forgotten one of two items I planned to comment on, but I'm
also sure we can all bear the loss.

  Gum, I enjoyed the item about the symbolism of the boat. I had vaguely
associated it with the fishermen, but that's all. And of course many of
the early Christian symbols were deliberately obscure, so only Christians
would recognize them.  Safer that way.

  Sophie does seem to spot Elgin frequently watching Agnes. With the new
speculation that is arising about Agnes, it occurs to me that Elgin might
have other than romantic reasons for keeping an eye on her.
  I agree with ALF.  Somehow, Agnes doesn't seem jealous to me. On those
occasions when she seems to act/speak out of character, it is more as if
she is taunting...innocently, of course.

BELLAMARIE
 

the Bible is a book within a book, within a book

Hmm, I can't speak for the Metamorphoses, having never read it, but the Bible
is more a collection of books..a library of books.  One might say, 'books within
a book'; that would be entirely accurate.

One point in this section that perturbs me....If Lyros is so concerned with archaeology, why is he permitting the drilling that endangers the excavation?   True archaeologists proceed very slowly and cautiously in order not to endanger whatever may be there.  Lyros disregard in this respect has me wondering just precisely what his motives are here.

 

[JoanR]

Thanks, Deems, for clearing up the confusion over "Metamorphoses".  The Ovid  with whom I'm a bit familiar wrote the long poem  "Metamorphoses" which covers the myths and legends familiar to the Romans.  I can translate some simplified versions of it but hope to learn enough to do the "real thing" some day.  I love those old stories.  I was trying to figure out how in the world the Bible got into it.  Glad you clarified the whole thing for us.  Now  I can see how it all happened .

This is such a wonderful discussion.  I just sit back in amazement at all the great information and keep busy following down the links.  The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!

I have a feeling that we should beware of red herrings and false trails so I'm not leaping to any conclusions yet!

[bellamarie]

Deems, Like I said, I know NOTHING at all about Ovid, I just stumbled onto that website.  I am aware it was written in Latin, and I am also aware of what lines in it I picked up on the Christian ideas.  What I read is what I based my ideas on.  With all due respect, I will defer to the Professor here.

JoanR, Don't just sit back, feel free to jump in and give us your knowledge on Ovid, we need all the help we can get here.  We are all confused as you can see.  

Babi, I think we are meaning the same. Guess it came out wrong.  I am in agreement the Bible is a collection of books. From all the books Carol used to write Night Villa, I dare say this could be considered a collection of books.  lolol  It sure has my head spinning with Poseidon, and poppies, Little Mermaid and dead fish, John the Baptist and John Lyros, Boats and crescent moons, FBI and tetraktys, rapes and homosexuals, cults and churces, hades and parasdise, Sibyls and slaves....damned if I can keep anything straight.

 

Thank you ladies, A scholar I am NOT.  Guess I better stick with the more simpler things.        

Ciao for  now.................

[PatH]

Yes, JoanR, we tend to forget that this is a mystery,and probably full of red herrings.

Babi, I agree about the drilling, it bothered me too.  Not only is it a danger, but don't forget that some of the most important information from Pompeii and Herculaneum came from the empty cavities.  You fill in this hole in the solidified ash with plaster and find a bodiy lying in the position it fell.  Excavation is destruction, and you have to be sure, to the best of your technology, that you have captured everything.  And the lower levels are unsafe.  Why weren't they shored up properly as they were opened?

[ginny]

That's a good point. A LOT of good points. Some of the sites are not being extensively excavated because of earthquakes. Speaking of red herrings....hahahaa

 Cathy and Andrea both have good links and quotes on garum, the links at the end of Cathy's article are particularly good. If you have not had time to read   the "fixings" in these ancient recipes from those who lived at that time from the Penelope Project,  feast your eyes.

 Garum is rotten fish guts, much prized as a sauce.Apparently there was a thriving trade from Pompeii in the stuff. It was stored in garum jars and exported. Here's one of the jars, they are huge, from a ship from  one of the traveling exhibitions last year, taller than a man:

I am amazed at reading here of the modern production of this sauce, let's all get some fish guts or offal as Pliny describes  and try it? hahahaa

Pliny... describes garum as "consisting of the guts of fish and the other parts that would otherwise be considered refuse; these are soaked in salt, so that garum is really liquor from the putrefaction of these matters" (Natural History, XXXI.93).

From the U of Chicago Penelope Project comes this excellent explanation:

  http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/wine/garum.html

The most detailed description of garum is from the Geoponica (XX.46). The preparation involves adding a quantity of salt (two sextarii to one modius, 1:8, this is the only recipe to provide a ratio) to the entrails of small fish, such as mullets, sprats, or anchovies. The mixture then was allowed to ferment or macerate in the sun for several months, the liquamen drawn off and strained and used as a condiment or seasoning, the feculent remainder made into allec.

Sounds yummy to me!

[ginny]

I love all the conversation here, it's fabulous! I  tried to get in here all last night, what storms we had, unreal. Many without power here today but we were without satellite..  But on the subject of why John Lyros seems suspect, here's my reasoning:

On Why I Don't Trust John Lyros

1.   There's that 5 year gap in his resume, and we know what 5 years means in this book, so somehow he is or was involved with the Tetratkys.

2.   He's called his boat the Parthenope, one of the Sirens. We remember what the sirens do in this piece.

3.   His remark on page 121, to Agnes's remark "Sometimes I forget that this isn't the original villa." He remarks "Why don't you do that?" ostensibly about her emailing a copy to his laptop, but in response to her remark. I think he's determined to recreate the entire thing, or whatever the entire thing would be. And the "thing" was quite unpleasant,  wasn't it? Even if we don't know what "it" was, the actual secret mystery rites, for which we're reading the fictional Phineas Aulus to find out, we DO know there's whipping till the blood comes to the skin? So what fun to recreate that one?

4.   The room she is in corresponds to the same room Phineas was in. Lyros is the one making the room assignments, but he innocently announces to the group, Sophie just noticed she's in the same room!

5.   On 134 Sophie says, she is "wondering just how long Lyros had been listening to our conversation."

6.   He's looking for (136), "an Orphic poem, an unknown dialog of Plato, the lost writings of Pythagoras."

7.   166: "The idea that Lyros might be re-creating some kind of ritual here in his re-creation of the Villa della Notte is alarming."

Yeah boy

8.   160 "I bet it was Mr. Lyros." Agnes suspects Lyros of putting the poppy on her plate. Maria thinks so too And Agnes says "he's so into recreating the atmosphere of the original Villa Della Notte." Why? When we know it was unpleasant?


9.   143, Sophie is startled by the eyes of Lyros again. "They seem to darken for a moment when they fall on my arm linked to Elgin's…"

10.   144 Lyros is very angry about the wrong number of table settings. Why?

11.   189 Lyros is watching them:  "John, who I notice, is watching us…"

12.   Lyros says something strange to Sophie, he says on page 190, "I'll make sure we don't open it before you get back." Is he playing again some kind of parallel game? Even she thinks it's a strange remark.

13.   Pythagoras emerges again, as Elgin tells Sophie,  "I think they believe that Pythagoras's golden Verses were real and that Phineas had a copy with him when Vesuvius erupted." And I think "they" are Lyros who has already mentioned Pythagoras.

14.   And here he comes, covered with ash but otherwise unhurt, as he's been "trying to get them out of there,"  Simon and Agnes. Something is wrong here. Earthquake was a nice coincidence, I don't think that's what happened. Nobody else had the room cave in on them.

Or so I think.

[JudeS]

I leave you guys for less than a day and it takes me an hour to catch up on your posts.

I have a question-
Did the person that put the quote from Cicero on top of this page choose the rose at random or because it was used in the Greco-Roman worship of Isis?  Remember the Rose industry developed because roses were used in worship of Isis.

Now remarks-Remember this is a mystery and the red herrings and stinky sauces abound.

Next -If you're on an Island like Capri (yes, I spent a sun drenched day there and decide that it was possibly the most beautiful place on earth) you will see boats everywhere you look on the horizon or close to the shore.  If you are in a part of Italy close to Capri you will also be inundated by boats.  Blue and white are the favorite colors people paint there boats.

If it was Ely on that boat then the part premonition plays in the story is bigger than I thought at first. Is the author one who uses premonition as a tool in her mysteries?  I don't know.

What do those little cards mean?  Up to now the best guess I read was Zorro.  There simply isn't enough to go on as yet.
I'm sure the author must be building up to something but I don't know what as yet. The only connection I can make is with
 Tarot cards that are supposed to tell your fortune or future.
Wait, another idea emerges, perhaps the man with the whip is part of a sado-masochistic cult within a cult? There were friezes of this type which I saw when visiting Pompeii.

ALF- if you want to be Isis you are welcome to the position.  She's way too busy a person for me.  She has many jobs-so little time.

[ginny]

Now remarks-Remember this is a mystery and the red herrings and stinky sauces abound.

Shriek! hahaaaa    Good one!

I have a question-
Did the person that put the quote from Cicero on top of this page choose the rose at random or because it was used in the Greco-Roman worship of Isis?  Remember the Rose industry developed because roses were used in worship of Isis.

Marcie did it? And now it's revealed, Marcie is the Tetratkys infiltrator! hahaha  Nah she just liked it, it IS pretty. Love the connection. We will be seeing Tetratkys in our back yards before this is over. hahahaa

The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!

Good one, Joan R, that one's in the heading, so true.

What would happen if we took the cards from the table and the cards from the mail received and put them in order (or the order Sophie read them in, were they arranged in a certain way then? What would happen if we  tried to match them to what we know of the story Aulus is telling?

Anything?  (Notice who has not done this? hahahaa)

[winsummm]

naturally many of us have been interested in attempting to make GARUM. . . me too. here  are recipes for the old style and the new style. enjoy.


http://www.grouprecipes.com/46415/ancient-roman-garum-fish-sauce.html

ah that google . . seven days in the sun is part of the old one. fermentation as in sun tea? or is the salt the preservation source. This would be very very salty and bad for you ad me I think.

claire

[winsummm]

jealousy we could discuss that for a long time. succinctly many animals are territorial about their mates.  However, in this story, it doesn't seem to move it along in any way as a part of the theme.  MYSTERY seems to me eto be the main theme.

Thank you, whoever for ARGOS. I've already forgotten YOUR NAME so as to thank you properly.  I hate this memory thing that's taking over my life.

MEMORY is a good theme and appears in may goodman tales. . . but not so much in this one. I've read four of them now. Just finished THE DROWNING TREE.  very interesting description of the production of stained glass windows.

claire

[bellamarie]

winsummm, 

jealousy we could discuss that for a long time. succinctly many animals are territorial about their mates.  However, in this story, it doesn't seem to move it along in any way as a part of the theme.

I have seen hints of it, and some people who are jealous keep it hidden until they decide to harm their target.  Agnes, is someone I suspect would not be good at sharing, or not good at accepting someone she cares about, does not return those feelings, but has feelings for another.  All throughout mythology, middle ages, biblical times and modern times, we see people kill because of jealousy.  Its just a feeling I have had for some time.  I sense her target will be Sophie. 

[ALF43]

winsumm- check out our interview with Carol Goodman at the top here.  She went into great detail about the stained glass windows in The Drowning Tree.  Her research was impeccable.

[winsummm]

Alf. blowing glass leaves you with a container not a flat plate like surface.  I looked into doing it but am not strong enough to  fling that long metal tube that you blow into around to  make and shape the gob of molten glass on the end.  this is my art field so I notice little things like that.  I suppose you could flatten them out but that's not conducive to  cutting like say a picture puzzle. Stained glass for windows needs to be flat and thin.

I couldn't find carols discussion on it but noticed the discrepancy while reading the book.

I did wonder aboutthe multi layering to create color effects.  we do that in painting with glazes, but the light coming from behind wouldn't work for painting so I wonder  about the  stream effect, possibly only done in the dark layer which is on top . . .it's an interesting field. while arranging on he light table though you are working upside down too, so it would be the first layer. there are probably a lot of different approaches, but none of them are BLOWN GLASS.

I've done something like that in painting on Milar for architectural illustrations.
claire

[Gumtree]

Quote from JudeS

What do those little cards mean? Up to now the best guess I read was Zorro.
There simply isn't enough to go on as yet

Jude You're right: there isn't enough information given about the little cards so I'm content to wait until we learn more.

My facetious guess at the masked man being Zorro wasn't just plucked out of thin air as Zorro always left his own calling card - the letter Z slashed into whatever surface he found handy. - the original tale was a novella called The Curse of Capistrano by Johnston
 McCulley - it is startlingly reminiscent of The Scarlet Pimpernel

[bellamarie]

winsummm,  Each November I go to the University lab and make icicles.  We begin with a glass rod and heat it with a torch, then we use a steel tool with a flat round end to flatten the end of the heated glass and if we want the icicle to have reflecting color in it at that point we add color crystals.  I have a difficult time when stretching the heated glass to twist it into the shape of the icicle because I am short and have short arms, and the glass begins to cool down quite quickly.  I must say...they are a beautiful finished product and look gorgeous on our Christmas tree.  I have so many now, I have begun giving them away for Christmas gifts.  My precious grandchildren are in awe when they see them on the tree and saw, Nonnie and Papa made these!  Each time them come during the holidays, they have to take as they say, "JUST ONE" home. lolol  I expect they will have quite a collection and a lifetime of memories to go along with them.

My friend does beautiful glass blowing vases etc.  I marvel at the art of it.

[ginny]

This is sort of on the topic I guess, but  I hate to keep mentioning DVD's but the  Corning Glass Company has some wonderful DVD's which show among other things the various techniques that the Romans and the Egyptians  used in making glass. There were a bunch of different techniques and it's absolutely fascinating.

Of course YouTube has a bunch of glass blowers, too. The Corning Museum site: http://www.cmog.org/ does not seem to have any of those videos but I was surprised to see you can sign up for

Make Your Own Glass

Make Your Own Glass experiences offer fun for all ages.

Sandblast a drinking glass, fuse a windchime, flamework a bead and more. Our experienced glassmakers will help you!

Oh wouldn't that be super fun for those of us who know nothing of it. I can attest that one sits gap mouthed at the display on their DVD's, you can easily see why the Romans switched to glass blowing, a glass in no time versus a long process previously.

On the cards, (Zorro Sighting! hahaha love it) Andrea listed some, let me go get all 6 in the order and see what happens if we decide to look at them as (HOLD ON TO YOUR SEATS!) another parallel plot?


I personally think Calatoria made up the "Sibyl's prophesies" because they were always indecipherable and those Calatoria  gave were not. She was enticing the fictional Phineas into her web. Just like John Lyros is! I could be wrong, however and most always am. hahahaa

I loved this section here: Beginning of Chapter 12:

It is that time of evening when th sky shifts from indigo to violet. In sympathy, the sea has darkened to purple--a color that could earn the Homeric epithet: "wine dark." Lights are  just beginning to come on around the shoreline, like beads being strung, one by one, on a curved diatem crowning the amethyst brow of the bay.

That's nice writing. Full of metaphor, simile and personification.  The more I look at it the better I like it and the more I see in it, I like a book like that.

Do you have any questions for Carol in this section? We've only the one day more in it?

Did any piece of writing in this section stand out?

One other reason this grabbed me was the "wine dark sea." I have never seen it. Two or was it three years ago on an archaeological trip to Greece for two weeks including a boat trip to Cyprus,  we saw plenty of sea, I never saw wine dark nor anything that even resembled it.  Have been looking at the  Siren's coast for 24 years, maybe I go at the wrong time of the year! I bet that's IT!

OR maybe the wine of Greece in 700 BC looked different? I dunno, one of those little things that nag one.

Andrea put in the first three cards. Let me go get them and the last three and see what we can make of it, I loved that "they're all masked" in this thing.

[ginny]

This was good, Pedln:  
OK, it was "justice" that caught my eye -- for Iusta?

Iusta (Justa) in Latin when pertaining to persons means: just, equitable, fair.

She was real however, so I am not sure if her own name will come to have meaning here in this pretty much fictional take off on her life.

-------------


OK we've all been talking about the cards and what they might mean, here's my take on it.  What do you think?  

SHRIEK!! SHRIEK !! SHRIEK!!

LOOK at this!


 Andrea listed the first three cards on the table:

1. A smiling crescent moon
2. a man falling down the stairs
3. A masked man

YOWEE! If you look up Smiling Crescent Moon in Tarot LOOK what you get!!!!  I'll highlight some of these in red:

18. THE MOON

    I am
    Moon Goddess
    waxing and waning
    light in the darkness
    My changes pull at the soul
    

A smiling crescent moon shines above an empty bed on the Moon card. The towers on either side protect the bed, the home of sleep, as the Priestess' towers guard her. They also recall the proud building of the Tower card, raised against the sky by human pride. The towers look out towards approaching dangers, toward the future. On either side of the bed stand a wild wolf and a domestic dog. Humanity encompasses them both; we are both tame and wild. We too are domesticated but still, at heart, as wild as wolves. A path winds down through the center of the scene, even over the bed itself. This is the path of unconsciousness and dream. The Moon, an embodiment of the eternal feminine, reigns over the period of sleep and dream. The bed stands both in water and on land; its legs rest on little islands from which water ripples in rings. Water, as we have seen is the vital power of possibilities and represents the depth of the subconscious. From the mystery of the waters rises a lobster, aquatic creature of nightmares. Dreaming opens the deepest, most hidden parts of ourselves. We live through much, and relive the joys and troubles of waking life. There is the nourishing, regenerating aspect of dream, and always the potential for night terrors.

Meaning

The Moon presides over the kingdom of peaceful sleep and restless nightmares. From the fount of the watery star flow dreams, illusions, chimeras, visions. She is mistress of fertility, creativity, and the subconscious as well as the instigator of lunacy and nocturnal fears. As the night fills half of time, and the dark sustains half the weight of the universe, so the Moon takes its place as the guardian of half of the world soul. Nightmares, as disturbing as they can be, still serve us well. The soul grapples with its fears in the anxious images of troubled sleep, and it draws strength from the struggle.

The Light and Shadow Tarot, pg. 56 - 58.

Holy smoke!

Moon? Building of pride? Water? Steps going down?

WHOOPEE!! I feel like Stanley discovering Livingstone but is THIS a red herring too?


And here are the ones sent to her in the mail, no postmark, hand delivered. (Are we all assuming Ely here? If not, who?)

Three small cards (what happened to 3, 4, 5?) each about an inch square,….

4. a man sweeping with a broom
5. a frying pan
6. a sun

OK I looked up Tarot Cards (being somewhat surprised to see the links to Tarot, Astrology and Numerology, but anyway from this site: http://www.learntarot.com/maj19.htm

HERE is what the Sun card means in Tarot:

becoming enlightened
understanding
finding the sense behind the chaos
attaining a new level of insight
having an intellectual breakthrough
getting to the heart of the matter
realizing the truth
experiencing greatness
achieving prominence
being singled out for notice
having a personal moment of glory
setting an outstanding example
shining forth brilliantly
demonstrating distinction
becoming the center of attention
feeling vitality
becoming radiantly energized
bursting with enthusiasm
experiencing joy
feeling invigorated
getting charged up
enjoying great health
having assurance
feeling free and expansive
honoring your true self
knowing you can succeed
being confident
believing in your worth
trusting your abilities
forgiving yourself


So, I think we have the entire story here sent to Sophie.  BUT are they from friend or foe? LOOK at all the meanings of the SUN!

On the one hand you could say the sun enlightenment to me means whoever sent these cards WANTS her to go thru this whatever it is. That to me means he or she is not a friend.\

On the other spectrum it seems to promise forgiveness of self, look at the end bunch, in that case are they a warning sent by a friend?

Maybe I'm reading it wrong?

 Perhaps we have a mix here, a mix of symbols pertaining to the current situation like the steps, falling down the steps.

 We've already seen some of the steps have no railings and are just stuck out of the wall, I can attest to that, having done the INFAMOUS 1,000 steps on the Amalfi coast,  can't find the frying pan, all I can find is out of the frying pan into the fire. Out of the frying pan of this horrid event into the sun of enlightenment? Or maybe the Gemini twins are involved somehow? The one who never smiles, yin and yang?


HOO!!! Are these CARDS the modern Sibyl for Sophie? And us? Can she figure it out before it's too late?

??

I guess my question IS are these cards warnings or prophesy or both?

Can WE figure them out before she does?

HOO!

Don't we now have the first three? A situation involving water, towers built by pride, steps and danger, followed by falling and masked persons, people not what they seem to be.

The second set we may not have come to but the sun is enlightenment, so what is the broom and what is the frying pan?

I know, I know that's pretty…er….but what's YOUR explanation?

[Babi]

BELLAMARIE, not to mention ghosts, Curses, numerology, tarot-like cards and who knows what else. Our professor dismisses numerology…I think…, or does she just resent it because it took Ely away from her. She apparently believes in ghosts. I'm not sure what she really feels about 'curses'. Isn’t this out of character for a scholar?

PatH, I wasn't aware of the importance of the cavities. All in all, the work going
on here seems 'hair-raising', from both an archaeological and a fiction standpoint.

I don't know, GINNY. Like JoanR said, there are bound to be a number of red herrings scattered about here. I found that 5 year gap suspicious, too, but maybe we are supposed to. At one time or another, it seems Goodman points a subtle finger of suspicion at everyone.
  WOW!  With that many possible meanings to a single tarot card, you could pretty much find anything in a 'reading' that you pleased! As a couple of our posters have commented, we need more information on these cards before we know what our author has in mind.

[ginny]

Babi,  

WOW!  With that many possible meanings to a single tarot card, you could pretty much find anything in a 'reading' that you pleased!

Bingo! That's what the Sibylline prophesies were all about: nobody knew what they meant.

At Praeneste there was an ancient and famous temple of Fortune,  where oracles known as sortes ("lots") were given: tablets, each inscribed with its own oracle, were shuffled by a child who drew one and gave it to the questioner.

Kind of reminds you of those black balls you'd turn about and ask a question?  Remember those? I used to love them as a youngster.  And the answer would float up? hahaha Loved those things. I think they are still around.

Here's a little more on the oracles from the OCCL:

"Very many oracular responses to questions are known, and mostly they direct the questioner to perform some religious act, such as a sacrifice to a particular god."

So if these are meant as oracles, they are directions of what's to come, but they may be warnings. I see them as warnings....well HEY, they're in the book!

I think a simple "get out of there, they're all nuts," would do just as well?  hahaha

[ginny]

OH unless the person SENDING the cards is a Tetratkys and can't communicate (was that oral or written communication?) Maybe he or she is cheating a little on the 5 year vows, we already know there's a fungus among us?

[ALF43]

 Holy smokes Ginny, Jude & Babi, now-- I am completely uncertain at this point what these symbols depict.
 We could pick any one of these explanations but until our next reading assignment I fear that clarification is in a distant light.

hmmm Ginny good point there.  The five year vow was a vow of SILENCE!  i doubt if that meant communication.  good thought! 

PatH- Oh my, oh my, WHY did I not even think about the hurry that Lyros seems to insist on at the dig site.  Oh where is your post?  Is it Lyros?  He's not the archeologist, he's just funding the thing, isn't he?  I'm getting my wires crossed and it is still only noon.

[ALF43]

Ginny-What do you mean the black balls when you were a kid?  Heck I still consult mine as an adult.  I asked about the stock market recently.....

[ginny]

hahaha You and the rest of Wall Street. hahaha

I started to buy one the other day just for the heck of it. I kept getting the same answer tho so did not. hahahaa

[Deems]

Andy, you are a hoot (as Ginny would say).  Still using the old Magic 8 Ball, eh? 

My problem with Tarot card meanings is that there are too many possibilities--reminds me of horoscope readings from the paper.   My guess is we'll find out later what these cards mean and we might as well wait.  No real point in speculating, is there?  It does seem that the cards spook Sophie a little. 

[Gumtree]

Countrymm: From your comment on tucker I see you are a true aficionado. When did you come to Australia and which part of the country did you visit?  What did you like most about it? This is not an inquisition - I'm just interested.

[Gumtree]

Ah! Deems: How nice, you're here again in the middle of my night. Like you, I'm going to leave the puzzle of the cards until someone - perhaps Carol Goodman - explains it all to me. I'm not much into mysteries but I do love this book for its background in the classical world.

[Eloise]

Gum,

I'm not much into mysteries but I do love this book for its background in the classical world.

Ditto