Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant (Read 370489 times)

JoanK · « **Reply #480 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:57:09 PM »

"I want to know what were the steps by which
man passed from barbarism to civilization (Voltaire)"

What are our origins?
Where are we now?
Where are we headed?
Share your thoughts with us!

Volume Five (The Renaissance)

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."

SAVONAROLA AND THE REPUBLIC

The Prophet
The Statesman
Literature: The Martyr
Architecture and Sculpture: The Republic and the Medici
Art Under the Revolution

In this volume the term "Renaissance" refers only to Italy. Will Durant studies the growth of industry, the rise of banking families like the Medici, the conflicts of labor and capital and considers the reasons why Italy was the first nation, and Florence the first city in Italy, to feel the awakening of the modern mind. He follows the cultural flowering from Florence to Milan, Mantua, Ferrata, Verona and Venice, Padua and Parma, Bologna, Rimini, Urbino, Perugia, Siena, and Naples.

In each city of Italy we witness a colorful pageant of princes, queeens, dukes, or doges -- of poets, historians, scientists, and philosophers -- of painters, sculptors, engravers, illuminators, potters, and architects -- of industry, education, manners, morals, crime, and dress -- of women and love and marriage -- of epidemics, famines, earthquakes, and death.

Dr. Durant draws vivid vignettes -- of Petrarch, Boccaccio, Cosimo de' Medici, Fra Angelico, Donatello, Beatrice and Isabella d'Este, Leonardo da Vinci, Piero della Francesca, Signorelli, Perugino, Giovanni Bellini, Giorgione, Aldus Manutius, Correggio, Alexander VI, Caesar and Lucrezia Borgia, Julius II, Leo X, Raphael, and Michelangelo.

The Renaissance, by recalling classic culture, ended the thousand year rule of the Oriental mind in Europe.

This volume, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Discussion Leader: robby

JoanK · « **Reply #481 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:00:55 PM »

"Martin judged money to be more urgently needed than reform". He got the money, but not the reform. I think money is easier to get. We will see what will happen to the current president, trying to get reform at a time when money is a crucial issue. If he doesn't get the right reforms in our financial system, I'm afraid it will catch up with us later, as it did for the Catholic Church.

(I managed to talk about two no-no's in the same post -- politics and religeon. I hope, hope hope zI don't staart a fight).

JoanK · « **Reply #482 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:05:19 PM »

ROBBY: I copied the heading, leaving off the bit about the picture of an Augustine monk. If you want it back, let me know.

Emily · « **Reply #483 on:** November 18, 2009, 06:37:21 PM »

Welcome back Bubble. SOC like many other discussion groups was left floating in cyberspace, until our leader and brave commander Robbie, landed us safely here at SeniorLearn.

We need posters. I made an appeal to my non-fiction book club, but they have never forgiven me for selecting 'Albions Seed' for a discussion long ago. We have settled into books discussing current history and recent events. It is my favorite book club, but would like to mix in some ancient history. I have been outvoted.

Emily

PatH · « **Reply #484 on:** November 18, 2009, 07:13:03 PM »

Welcome back, Bubble; at the moment a lot of us are just returning, and still re-orienting ourselves, so don't have much to say, but things will pick up as we figure out where we are.

Emily · « **Reply #485 on:** November 18, 2009, 07:31:05 PM »

Joan, your post on money and reform was well put, and I agree with your deduction.

Politics and current events were always discussed at out dinner table while growing up. I got a globe for my sixth birthday and won a geography contest.

I went looking for the members of ASEAN since it was in the news this week, and to my surprise Borneo had disappeared. It is now known as Kalimantan, and is ruled by Indonesia, Malaysia, and Brunei. It is the worlds second largest island, and I was unaware it had been divided up and renamed.

I did know that Burma had been renamed Myanmar, but is still called Burma by the U.S. and a few other western nations.

In our current discussion we have seen states dissolve and fracture. In the Renaissance discussion, we are reading about 'states' because Italy is not yet united as a country.

Emily

PatH · « **Reply #486 on:** November 18, 2009, 07:58:51 PM »

Emily, thanks for the info on Borneo. I hadn't noticed that yet. I think that Myanmar has changed its name back to Burma, but it's slow catching on.

Robby · « **Reply #487 on:** November 18, 2009, 08:36:15 PM »

Good to hear from you, Patti. Yes, we are gradually having increased participation and will soon be back to the way we once were.

Robby

Justin · « **Reply #488 on:** November 19, 2009, 03:45:13 PM »

Bubble: It's a pleasure to see you posting again. We lost so many old friends when we shifted to Senior Learn that the survivors worried about survival of the discussion.

Justin · « **Reply #489 on:** November 19, 2009, 08:51:25 PM »

Martin's reasoning here is interesting. He says the Church was able to survive a century without reform but without funds the Papacy would shut down in a week. The plague was in progress in Europe so lay funds were constrained. Money was tight all over Europe. The pope looked inward. What did he have to sell that had value? Absolution? Baptism? Confirmation? The Eucharist? All that was freely given away. What else was there? Ahaaa! He said to himself one morning. Church offices, that's what I'll sell. So the college of Cardinals and the list of Bishops were enlarged. Then he came upon fees for last rites, burial services, and plots in Holy Ground. Gradually the fees grew in number and size. Until, a German envoy told his King," Greed reigns supreme in Rome.

3kings(Trevor) · « **Reply #490 on:** November 19, 2009, 08:57:36 PM »

Hello all ! I'm a poster from wayback when SNet was going. Thanks to the very kind help from Brian I have managed to re-activate my connection. I must now find out where we are, and then join in, with remarks hopefully pertinent. Will be back soon. ++Trevor

JoanK · « **Reply #491 on:** November 19, 2009, 08:58:14 PM »

TREVOR!! HURRAH!

PatH · « **Reply #492 on:** November 19, 2009, 09:32:16 PM »

Welcome back, Trevor! A number of us are getting our feet wet again, so you're in good company.

PatH · « **Reply #493 on:** November 19, 2009, 09:33:54 PM »

Quote from: Justin on November 19, 2009, 08:51:25 PM

Then he came upon fees for last rites, burial services, and plots in Holy Ground. Gradually the fees grew in number and size. Until, a German envoy told his King," Greed reigns supreme in Rome.

Why am I reminded of current airline practices?

Justin · « **Reply #494 on:** November 20, 2009, 12:12:16 AM »

Yes, Pat and banks too.

ALF43 · « **Reply #495 on:** November 20, 2009, 12:59:12 PM »

I am delighted to see so many of our seniornetters back in here with you Robby.
Welcome here at SeniorLearn. I'm certain that you will find it to your liking. We are still in our infancy and thank Robby for his dedication to SOC through all of our changes.

Emily- that is hysterical that your book group is still holding you responsible.

Emily · « **Reply #496 on:** November 20, 2009, 08:21:17 PM »

Welcome back Trevor. Thank you Brian for assisting in Trevor's return.

The church with their fees seem to be punishing the very people who formed the core of their first believers, the poor and enslaved. As the Roman army marched across Europe they enslaved large numbers of other European people and transported many of them to the Roman slave market.

"It is written that Pope Gregory's first encounter with Englishmen occured as he walked through the Roman market, and taken by their blond beauty, asks what manner of men they are. Angli comes the reply. (Angles or Englishmen) Gregory says, 'they look like Angli, angels. He goes on to see that the English are evangelized, but leaves the captives to be sold"..........Thomas Cahill

We know how all this turned out, but does anyone think it ever crossed Martin's mind that he might be taking the wrong approach. I doubt that it did.

Emily

Justin · « **Reply #497 on:** November 21, 2009, 01:59:31 AM »

Emily: I think Martin was a sharp administrator but I also don't think he had a clue to the consequences of his decision to sell church offices and services. Subsequent Popes tended to let the good stuff he did fall victim to forgetfulness and to expand on his mistakes. Money makers like the sale of indulgences were eventually added to the list of commodities. These, as we all know, led to untold excesses and the reform proposals by Martin Luther.

Justin · « **Reply #498 on:** November 21, 2009, 02:17:15 AM »

Pope Gregory's response to the Angli seems terribly naive to me but he was probably a victim of the prevailing culture. Popes have traditionally railed against contemporary culture but perhaps that is something that happened over time. Today, Benedict says no to women priests, to safe sex in the face of aids, and to other proposals when society recognizes the necessity for such measures. This Pope fails to compromise to curb the evils that lurk in our midst just as Gregory failed to curb Roman slavery. I think they see human problems as not relevant in a religious context. They themselves resorted to torture to achieve their aims. So one cannot expect human compassion of the clergy. If it comes it is the product of individual initiative.

Robby · « **Reply #499 on:** November 21, 2009, 08:13:37 AM »

I think of the Queen Bee who is really a slave to the hive just making egg after egg. Are popes, kings, even dictators in many ways caught up in the struture that they themselves may have created and now find that decisions are automatically made for them?

Robby

PatH · « **Reply #500 on:** November 21, 2009, 04:27:37 PM »

That's got to be at least partly true. They all hold their power at least partly through the backing of their supporters, who all have their own agendas, so the rulers get stuck having to do what the supporters want. And everything takes money, which has to come from somewhere.

Justin · « **Reply #501 on:** November 21, 2009, 06:43:28 PM »

Robby: I know you offer a generalization but it's interesting to speculate on the state of mind of someone like Martin when he realizes he must have money for the church to function but the treasury is empty except for things he ordinarily gives away. Did he think of himself as a victim, as someone locked in to a system, or did he simply rise to a challenge and meet it? I'll bet he spent all of five minutes thinking about what a tough row he picked and how nice it would be to just duck the issue and let his successor handle it. It's a good thing he didn't do that because his successor was a bomb. I think this guy Martin is someone I can admire. He took action when action was needed even though the action was counter to everything the Church had done before. That takes sand.

Emily · « **Reply #502 on:** November 21, 2009, 07:09:48 PM »

Quote

Justin

That takes sand.

I had to read that twice before I 'think' I got it Justin. I just translated 'sand' to 'grit' and it all became clear as mud.

Emily

Brian · « **Reply #503 on:** November 21, 2009, 07:27:49 PM »

Not possessing a copy of SOC, I often find myself in the position of having to do research just to understand who we are talking about.

"Martin" as a pope, may be well known to most of you, but for me he was a problem until I came across the following - - -

When the second Pope to take the name Martin was elected, there was confusion over how many Popes had taken the name before. It was believed at the time that there were three, so the second Pope named Martin was called Martin IV. Therefore, the third Pope named Martin was called V. But, in reality, those believed to be Martin II and Martin III were actually called Marinus I and Marinus II, although they are sometimes still known as Martin II and Martin III. This has advanced the numbering of all subsequent Popes Martin by two. Popes Martin IV-V are really the second and third popes by that name.

I hope I am correct in saying that our "Martin" is Martin V.

Having checked out Martin V, I note that he also got money from the Jews in exchange for returning to them the rights they had lost by action of the previous pope. He also found a way round the law that declared the taking of interest on loans to be usury (and illegal) by selling church covered annuities.

Who now can say that our bankers have not been well taught?

Brian.

PatH · « **Reply #504 on:** November 21, 2009, 07:46:40 PM »

This is an only barely relevant digression, but I don't know a lot of people who might appreciate jokes like this. Pope Gregory sees the young English slaves in the market, and says "non sed angli, sed angeli" (not English, but angels).

I own a book, "1066 and All That", by Sellar and Yeatman, which is a humorous retelling and mangling of all the stock stories from British history, and it translates Gregory's remark as "not angels, but Anglicans". Here comes Henry VIII.

JoanK · « **Reply #505 on:** November 21, 2009, 07:56:01 PM »

I hadn't thought about "1066 and All That" for years. I was reminded of Pat and my chilhood reading of English history the other day, when Durant said that Martin cleared the brigands off the road. About the only thing I remember about Henry II of England was that he had the trees cut back from the edge of the road so that brigands couldn't jump out and surprise travellers. I'll bet this was a problem in a lot of places.

Which reminds me: I've completely lost track of what years we're talking about. What were the dates for Martin V?

Brian · « **Reply #506 on:** November 21, 2009, 08:05:43 PM »

Martin V was Pope from 1417 to 1431. His reign was cut short by apoplexy. No pun intended.

Brian

PatH · « **Reply #507 on:** November 21, 2009, 08:13:38 PM »

Quote from: Brian on November 21, 2009, 08:05:43 PM

No pun intended.Brian

Yeah, right. Tee hee.

Justin · « **Reply #508 on:** November 22, 2009, 01:03:10 AM »

Pat: The translation of Gregory's comment is "Angles." England at that time was inhabited by Jutes and Angles. The Saxons came later as did the Normans.

Robby · « **Reply #509 on:** November 22, 2009, 07:47:47 AM »

"Martin’s successor faced the accumulated problems of the papacy from the background of a devout Franciscan monk ill equipped for statesmanship.

"The papacy was a government more than a religion. The popes had to be statesmen, sometimes warriors, and could rarely afford to be saints. Eugenius IV was sometimes a saint. True, he was obstinate and dourly inflexible and the gout that gave him almost constant pain in his hands helped his sea of troubles to make him impatient and unsociable. But he lived ascetically, ate sparingly, drank nothing but water, slept little, worked hard, attended conscientiously to his religious duties, bore no malice against his enemies, pardoned readily, gave generously,, kept nothing for himself and was so modest that in public he seldom raised his eyes from the ground.

"Yet few popes have earned so many foes.

"The first were the cardinals who had elected him. As the price of their votes, and to protect themselves from such one man rule as that of Martin, they had induced him to sign capitula – literally, headings – promising them freedom of speech, guarantees for their offices, control over half the revenues, and consultation with them on all important affairs. Such “capitulations” set a precedent regularly followed in papal elections throughout the Renaissance. Furthermore, Eugenius made powerful enemies of the Colonna. Believing that Martin had transferred too much Church property that family, he ordered restoration of many parcels, and had Martins former secretary tortured almost to death to elicit information in the matter.

"The Colonna made war upon the Pope. He defeated them with soldiery sent him by Florence and Venice but in the process he aroused the hostility of Rome. Meanwhile the Council of Basel, called by Martin, met in the first year of the new pontificate and proposed again to assert the supremacy of the councils over the popes. Eugenius ordered it to dissolve. It refused, commanded him to appear before it, and sent Milanese troops to attack him in Rome. The Colonna seized the chance for revenge. They organized a revolution in the city and set up a republican government . Eugenius fled down the Tiber in a small boat pelted by the populace with arrows, pikes, and stones.

"He fund refuge in Florence, then in Bologna. For nine years he and the Curia were exiles from Rome."

No good remains unpunished.

Robby

ALF43 · « **Reply #510 on:** November 22, 2009, 12:28:22 PM »

Weren't many of Eugenius IV's problem related to his insistance that the newly converted slaves be set free?
Imagine, that was in the 1400's and we're still arguing and discussing slavery of one kind or the other!

PatH · « **Reply #511 on:** November 22, 2009, 01:02:36 PM »

Quote from: Robby on November 21, 2009, 08:13:37 AM

...Are popes, kings, even dictators in many ways caught up in the struture that they themselves may have created and now find that decisions are automatically made for them?
Robby

Eugenius IV is certainly a good example. He tries to do what he thinks is right, and sets an unstoppable series of events in motion.

Emily · « **Reply #512 on:** November 22, 2009, 05:19:51 PM »

Martin V was a Colonna. He had brought his clan into Rome, and distributed to them property, etc. He came from a wealthy family and had lived at Palazzo Colonna before being appointed Pope.

Pope Eugenius IV through his cardinals, revoked much of Martin's (Colonna) giveaway. The Colonna fought back and seem to have lost all, but would regain control over their property once again a hundred years or so later.

Here is a link to Palazzo Colonna in central Rome.

http://www.romeartlover.it/Vasi63.htm

Emily

Emily · « **Reply #513 on:** November 22, 2009, 05:32:51 PM »

Here is a link to the Colonna private art collection, click on each painting to enlarge.

http://www.galleriacolonna.it/html_eng/collezione.html

Emily

JoanK · « **Reply #514 on:** November 22, 2009, 06:27:15 PM »

Emily: thank you. Those links are very interesting. The only artist in their gallery whose name I recognized was Tintiretto. Justin, Claire, what do you think of the artwork?

Justin · « **Reply #515 on:** November 22, 2009, 06:44:55 PM »

Alf: Please tell us more about Eugenius and the slave conversion. That's a side of this Pope I am unfamiliar with but would like to know more.

ALF43 · « **Reply #516 on:** November 22, 2009, 07:08:27 PM »

Christianity had gained many converts in the Canary Islands by the early 1430s however the ownership of the lands had been the subject of dispute between between Portugal and the Kingdom of Castille. The lack of effective control had resulted in periodic raids on the islands to procure slaves. Pope Eugene IV was concerned that the enslavement of newly baptized Christians would impede the spread of Christianity and therefore issued a Papal Bull, "Creator Omnium", on 17 December 1434.[1]

Eugene excommunicated anyone who enslaved newly converted Christians but no protection was offered to those who declined to become a Christian. Historian Richard Raiswell[1] sees this as a significant turning point because prior to this Canon Law had only sanctioned slavery in the context of a just war and un-baptized captives, but with the issuing of this bull the only protection offered was if the person became a Christian.

Portuguese soldiers continued to raid the islands during 1435 and Eugene issued a further edict Sicut Dudum that prohibited wars being waged against the islands and affirming the ban on enslavement.[1] Eugene condemned the enslavement of the peoples of the newly colonized Canary Islands and, under pain of excommunication, ordered all such slaves to be immediately set free.[2] Joel S Panzer (2008) views "Sicut Dudum" as a significant condemnation of slavery, issued sixty-years before the Europeans found the New World.[3] The prohibitions and ecclesiastical sanctions of Sicut Dudum related to the newly converted.[4] Eugene tempered "Sicut Dudum" with another bull (15 September 1436) due to the complaints made by King Duarte of Portugal, now allowing the Portuguese to conquer any unconverted parts of the Canary Islands. According to Raiswell (1997) any Christian would be protected by the earlier edict but the un-baptized were implicitly allowed to be enslaved.[5] Luis N. Rivera (1992) argues that Eugenes subsequent bull assumes that all Africans are pagans or Saracens and are therefore "enemies of God", language that Nicholas V would reflect later in Romanus Pontifex in which the same groups are described as "enemies of Christ", that they should be reduced to "perpetual servitude" and therefore the black slave market begins with Papal blessing.[6]

Following the arrival of the first African slaves in Lisbon during 1441 Prince Henry asked Eugene to designate Portugal's raids along the West African coast as a crusade, a consequence of which would be the legitimization of enslavement for captives taken during the crusade. On 19 December 1442 Eugene replied by issuing "Illius qui" in which he granted full remission of sins to those who took part in any expeditions against the Saracens.[7] Davidson (1961) asserts that "In Christianity as in Islam...the heathen was expendable.[8]

Richard Raiswell argues that the bulls of Eugene helped in some way the development of thought which perceived the enslavement of Africans by the Portuguese and later Europeans "as dealing a blow for Christendom

ALF43 · « **Reply #517 on:** November 22, 2009, 07:11:14 PM »

That source was Wikipedia the free encyclopedia, Justin.

JoanK · « **Reply #518 on:** November 22, 2009, 07:44:47 PM »

That's fascinating!

Justin · « **Reply #519 on:** November 22, 2009, 07:52:29 PM »

Joan: One thing about these Italian Palazzos, One walks in from a sunny street and sometimes finds really good things in a family collection. Others are just so so. This one has a few interesting pieces but many are just ordinary. Very few of these paintings are from the period we are interested in. There are four rows with seven images in each. If I label them a b c d. and the images with numbers 1-7 you will be able to follow me as we talk about them.

Martin V is in A2. He was full of spaghetti at the time, I think.

The A1 Cortona of Christ in Ascension is a 17th Century work in the Roman Baroque style rather than the Renaissance.

There are a couple of Bronzino pieces- B6 is one. Bronzino is more Mannerist in the late style of Michelangelo. If you look at B6 you will see elongated necks and stretched body trunks on his figures. We're reaching into a new style. there are extra ribs and vertebrae with sweeping french curves in the body lines.

There are a couple of Van Wittells in the group- C3 and C4. He was a part of the Dutch 17th century school. He paints in the style of Caneletto whom we discussed at length in our Venetian period.

There are some interesting portraits in addition to the Martin V. Felice Cortona Orsini is the product of two wealthy and powerful families. Several were Cardinals. You should notice that the lady is wearing Dutch lace in 17th century style. In C2 there is a portrait of Maria Mancini. She has the look of a woman who do great things and probably did, in and out of bed. Her hand gesture signifies her femaleness.

You have already noticed the Tintoretto.

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Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant (Read 370489 times)