Noah's Compass by Anne Tyler ~ May Book Club Online -

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

 

Noah's Compass ~  May Book Club Online
Everyone is invited - ANYTIME!

Anne Tyler's Noah's Compass was SeniorLearn's first  choice for  our May Book Club Online discussion.  We do hope you will join us in what should be a meaningful, worthwhile experience.  Tyler's protagonist, Liam Pennywell, tells his young grandson that Noah wasn't going anywhere in the Ark.  "He was just trying to stay afloat. He was just bobbing up and down, so he didn't need a compass, or a rudder, or a sextant."  Liam Pennywell  is troubled by his inability to remember anything about the first night that he moved into his new, spare condominium,  after being laid off at 61 from a job he never liked. All he knows when he wakes up the next day in the hospital is that his head is sore and bandaged.  For Liam, the most distressing part of his memory loss was that it felt like he was losing control. And yet this novel is described as "gently humorous."  Really. We all know a Liam, the novel suggests.   In fact, there may be a little of Liam in each of us. Just trying to stay afloat.  Please plan to join us as we float along together.

Discussion Schedule May 1-7 ~     Chapters 1,2,3 May 8-14 ~   Chapters 4,5,6 May 15-21 ~  Chapters 7,8,9 May 22-28 ~  Chapters 10,11,12

 

Some Questions for Your Consideration

May 15 - 21  Chapters 7,8,9

1.  Do you think Liam was as awkward with his fifth graders as he is with his own four year old grandson?  Do you suppose  he was as detached from his daughters  as they were growing up?   

2. Do you know anyone like Liam - not quite a recluse, but who likes to watch conversations without being expected to join in?

3.  Eunice sees herself as a bud that hasn't opened yet, but worries that she might never open.  How did Liam feel when he was her age?

4. Liam says he has no interests.   What is it that Eunice finds interesting about him?

5.   Do you find it true that only children exhibit excessive concern for parents' good opinion?  Does this explain  why Eunice  makes none of her own decisions?

6. How can Liam convince Eunice's parents that he is " a better man than he looks" on paper?  Does he really believe this?-

7.  How did  Liam take the stunning revelation he learned from Eunice's mother in the market?   Had Anne Tyler provided any indication that Eunice might not be quite as transparent as she appeared to be?

8.  Do you think  it is possible that Liam can come to accept Eunice's explanation and forgive her deceit, her  "unfortunate oversite"?
 Does her husband remind you of Liam, the kind of husband he must have been?
 
9.  What does Liam come to realize about Eunice - and himself?   How important is this self-realization?

10.  Were you as baffled as Damian was that Liam is no longer interested in seeing his attacker and remembering the night he was attacked?

Relevant Links:
Amazon.com. - Used copies available;
READERS' GUIDE QUESTIOLNS - CHAPTERS 1-6;
Bruce Frankel's What Should I Do With the Rest of My Life? 
Anne Tyler's Baltimore;

   

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Pedln

[JoanP]

No, but the memory loss is what triggered the story - and what brings Eunice into Liam's life.
I'd say that Liam is not so concerned about recovering his lost memory any more, either.  Does he see that the "rememberer" is not going to be of any help to him?  She talks about being a biology major - but can't find a job in the field... Now she's afraid she'll lose this job because Mr. Cope isn't improving.
Liam thinks there is something familiar about her - do you see why?

  Is there any way to prepare for impending memory loss?  It's Mrs. Cope who has hired Eunice.  Mr. Cope doesn't seem to understand what Eunice is doing - she works for the company - takes notes at meetings. 

Is losing memory something you fear happening to you?   Is there any way to prepare for it?

In general, I am seeing less of concern about memory loss, now that we are this far into the book -but more concern about planning for the future, for retirement.  Actually, Liam didn't plan his career very well either.  What did he expect to do with his degree in Philosophy?  How did he decide to go into education...with no preparation, no credentials.

.  Do you think young people  are often unaware of their own strengths and need objective help choosing  a career path? Do you think  similar guidance might  help with retirement planning?  I do, but where would one go for such guidance?

[Steph]

Actually  I remembered a long ago conversation when our eldest was graduating from college. He was a Civil Engineer going on for his Environmental Science masters, but standing in line for the bathroom on graduation day, as always the women were chatting. The one behind me asked about my child and I told her..then asked her about hers.. She laughed and said.. Oh he will probably work at McDonalds, he insisted on a philosophy degree.. Sad but true.

[JoanP]

Steph, I'd love to know what that budding philosopher did with his degree. (Waiting lines for the ladies restroom - a whole other discussion! )  I'm going to guess that the boy went on for his doctorate - and then went on to learn a marketable skill.  Yes, it is sad.  But it's true.  I wonder what guidance he received at the school.  What were his plans - or did he have any, except that he was studying something that he loved - like our Liam here.

One of my son's friends, the most intelligent kid I ever met, - off the charts on all the tests, perfect SATs - the works...majored in Philosophy - and Computer Science.  He uses the computer degree to support himself, and the Philosophy to live by. See, I told you he was smart!

My first-born loved MATH...became an accountant, then a tax lawyer.  He still loves the math.  That was easy.  I believe that those who tend to math and science are fortunate because there are so many fields they can go into - and support themselves.  

The next three sons all loved HISTORY - two of them majored in it.  The third was advised to get his  degree in Business.  The other two had no idea what they wanted to do with the History major -

One son was a great fan of the writer, Shelby Foote.  He spoke to him after a presentation at his school - about his love for History but what to do with it.  I think he was a freshman or a sophomore in college.  S.Foote told him to finish his basic college requirements and then take off for a year or two,  go to work and decide what it was he wanted to do and then go back and learn what he needed  for the job that he wanted to do.  I thought that was very sound advice - though he didn't take it.

Clearly Liam needed Guidance when he decided to pursue Philosophy.  We're told he "didn't get around to his dissertation"  so he went into education.  There is no inidication that he had any education courses or credentials.  

Considering how uncommunicative he is with his daughers - and awkward he is with his little grandson, we can only assume that he was a lousy teacher.
But then, there is Dr. Morrow's son, who is so appreciative of the attention and patience Liam showed to that boy.  Go figure.

Jonah is his first grandchild.  Liam seems quite puzzled about how he should feel about him.  Could you tell that Anne Tyler knew a lot about kids from the dialogue between Jonah and his grandfather?

[JoanP]

Third week begins today - some new questions up in the heading for your consideration - or feel free to bring us your own observations and questions...

Chapter 7 begins with Liam - babysitting Jonah.  This seems to be the first time this has happened, doesn't it?  And Jonah is four years old - lives in Baltimore too?  Interesting. This probably would have been different if he and Barbara were living together.  I  loved the interaction between the two.

[pedln]

JoanP, just now saw your new posts.

At one time, a degree in philosophy was considered the mark of an educated man

Steph, your comment about the philosophy degree brought back memories. Among my children are two engineers and two public health professionals.  After my eldest received her degree in computer science, she said, “Now I’d like to get an education,” reflecting that her program of studies left little room for things like philosophy.  (But instead, went on for grad work in engineering.)  Your son's friend chose a good option, JoanP.

Another child, like poor Eunice, started out in biology, but switched midway to history. “What can you do with a degree in history?” I asked.  “What can I do with an undergraduate degree in biology?,”  said she.  And went on for work in public health and public policy.  Her younger sister took a more circuitous route, first getting a graduate degree in physics, then deciding she didn't want to be a "techie" all her life.

Do you think young people  are often unaware of their own strengths and need objective help choosing  a career path?

Yes, JoanP, maybe.  But they can’t always plan for obstacles and/or opportunities. (Think – Jeff Bezos from Amazon). And we’ve been told so often that many jobs that will be available in 15 years don’t even exist now. It’s important to offer a variety of experiences to young people to help them become aware of their strengths and what they enjoy doing.

Do you think  similar guidance might  help with retirement planning?  I do, but where would one go for such guidance?

People need to decide their own goals.  Then they might need help in reaching them, be it in financial planning, physical training, specific learning and/or course work, etc.  If I were planning for Liam, I would try to find a way for him to increase his contact with others who would enjoy philosophical discussions.  His librarian ex-wife could probably help there, but she needs to be tactful about it.

I  loved the interaction between the two. (Jonah & Liam)

I do too.  Jonah is a very "forthcoming" little boy.

[JoanP]

Several days ago Pedln asked if we thought the book was about memory loss.  JoanG thinks not -

I came across this comment from Anne Tyler in one of her few rare interviews - it was an email interview as I recall -

Anne Tyler:
 
 "One night after I'd gone to bed I heard the house creaking downstairs, but I was too sleepy to investigate.  Then I started thinking about how if it were a burglar intent on beaning me, I wouldn't know anyway till I woke up the next morning.  And so: no psychological trauma!  Except I'd probably try for days to figure out what had happened.  (Though perhaps not for as many days as Liam.)

Why that thought gave birth to a whole novel, I'm not sure.  I do know that I have been fascinated by the subject of memory all my life.  Now that I'm in my sixties, with instances of Alzheimer's disease on both sides of my family, my biggest fear is that I'll end up with no memory whatsoever.  Yet I agree with Liam that there is such a thing as remembering too much, and I half admire his resolute refusal to dwell on his past."

She's admiing her character, as if he's a real person!  Her characters come alive as she describes them - or perhaps she's describing the person that has come alive in her imagination...he has taken on a life of his own>

[Steph]

Oh I love her thoughts on memory and Liam.. Her writing has always intrigued me..One of my person favorites of hers was the wife who ran away. Forgot the title, but I did love the book.
My younger son was also a double majory.. History and criminal justice. The CJ for work and the history for love.. He is content..
My Dad was a enormously affected by the depression and he insisted when I went to college, that mydegree was one of the the following. School teacher.... Home Ec....or maybe library science, since I was an omniverous reader.. When I wante to go to a small girls college in Virginia, he absolutly hit the ceiling.. No same sex schools either.. Oh well, he was a good man affected by his time.

[JoanP]

Oh, Steph - I remember that book!  Tyler's in Tyler's Ladder of Years...married to a domineering husband, right out of high school - he was a doctor, wasn't he?    She runs away, gets a job and becomes a new person. I loved that book too!

Don't her characters all seem to be those who are living unexamined lives, just making it, but without direction - without joy?  At some point they make a move - a decision to go in another direction.  Is this what's happening with Liam?  He doesn't seem to be the type of man who would go for a young woman like Eunice, but for once, he makes a move - on her.  Do you think that she was thinking of Liam in terms of dating before he expressed interest in her?
 What I like about Tyler's characters - it  is never too late to change -

She has said she is now writing her next book -  "about a man whose wife returns from the dead. The setting will be Baltimore, as always."   See?  Never too late!
Back later -
Steph - which of those choices did you major in?  I'm going to guess it was Library Science.  Had your dad not insisted, what do you think you would have done?


 

[straudetwo]

First, my apologies for my absence from this discussion. I have so enjoyed it and want so much to reply to your posts. Here's just one:
 (Claire, I'm with you on retirement!).
In Massachusetts, the weather was more dismal than we are used to , not a big surprise because spring is always late in these parts.   Except it was worse this year and affected arthritis sufferers, and I m one.

This is my second attempt: I was working on a post that was almost finished ----when it disappeared in the blink of an eye. Grrrr I'll  tcome back after a rest.

A thought in the meantime:  
From Liam's musings at the hospital we learn inter alia  that the Stoics were his focus when he studied philosophy. and he prides himself on stl being able to quote in the original Greek.

Did he imbibe their characteristics and,  if so, could they be reversed  or  at leastattenuated ?

[pedln]

Steph, oh yes -- school teacher, nurse, home ec -- "something to fall back on" after your MRS degree.  What did you choose?  And did you get to the colllege of your choice in VA?  I can still hear my school teacher mother talking about a classmate's mother -- "I ran into so and so at the grocery store today.  She's selling cosmetics door to door and she said her girls (3 of them) were going to be trained to do something, have something to fall back on." (That family had been well-off until the husband became an alcoholic.) My mother, widowed early on, understood her well.

From Ann Tyler:
"Yet I agree with Liam that there is such a thing as remembering too much, and I half admire his resolute refusal to dwell on his past."

I can understand not wanting to dwell on things that happened in the past, especially if you don’t plan to do anything differently because of them.  However, sometimes we learn from past actions and they guide us in a better direction.  Who was it who said something like “those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it?”

From JoanP
What I like about Tyler's characters - it  is never too late to change –

That’s a very interesting point.  I’ve only read two other Tylers – about Ian in St. Maybe, who was so consumed by guilt and the wrong he did to another family member,  and more recently, Digging to America, which, while about two families involved in international adoption,  really focuses on the Iranian-American grandmother – who does make changes in her life.

But is Liam changing?  Maybe slightly.  But is it enough?

[salan]

Oh, Joan P., I didn't realize that it had been a while since most of us have posted on this site.  I have been checking in and reading your posts every day.  I guess that many of us have been silent partners!  I was shocked to learn that Eunice was married.  Her clandestine meetings with Liam seemed really out of character.  I can't imagine what she saw in him.  She must have been desperately bored in her own life! 

To answer some of the questions you posted:  I feel that Liam was probably not a very good teacher.  That may be one of the reasons he was let go.  I think that he has probably always been rather detached with everyone in his life.  No wonder his wife left and his children do not feel close to him.  I have trouble feeling sorry for him, since he has brought this "aloneness" on himself.  Am I being too harsh on Liam? 
Sally

[pedln]

Traude, I didn’t see your post before – concentrating too much on the weather.  Not cold, like in New England, but on again, off again threatening clouds and thunderstorms.  I hope it warms up for you and the arthritis pains lessen.  We’ve missed you.

A thought in the meantime:  
From Liam's musings at the hospital we learn inter alia  that the Stoics were his focus when he studied philosophy. and he prides himself on stl being able to quote in the original Greek.

Comments like Traude’s are what make these discussions so worthwhile – the bits and pieces that folks pick up on, that the rest of us miss.  But when it’s all put together, voila – like stone soup.

Sally, I may be the only one, but I think we've been a bit harsh on Liam.  He really is a decent person, and I think he has regrets about much of his past.  And now he feels terrible because he has encroached on another man's marriage.  I think he feels like he's become his father.

Hey, he's just had a devastating blow, he's been lied to by his lady-love, upside down and backwards.  And what does he do, without batting an eye -- he makes spaghetti sauce because his daughter brings home tomatoes and wants to invite her boyfriend for dinner.  That's a pretty good guy.

[JoanP]

Pedln, you have been steadfast in your defense of Liam and his ways.  I'll have to give it to you, to him, he does endure - making homemade spaghetti sauce as his world is falling apart.

Traudee used the word "stoic" - and it got me to thinking that perhaps she is right. Liam had been a prize-winning student of philosophy at one time - with a focus on Stoicism.  What a good memory!

stoic - 1. One who is seemingly indifferent to or unaffected by joy, grief, pleasure, or pain.  SEEMINGLY

The question came up early in this discussion - Is Liam depressed?  Or is he getting  by - enduring -  though seemingly indifferent? Let's include that in our last batch of questions.
Those of you who see him depressed - a "mess" as someone put it - who want to shake him for his indifference, we'll need to hear from you!

[CallieOK]

I, too, apologize for not participating.  It was about this part of the book when I became thoroughly annoyed with Tyler's characters and stopped being interested in analyzing them.
  
They began to seem wishy-washy and I can't haven't yet been able to really explain why I began to think this way. (My high school algebra teacher wouldn't allow us to say "can't"; we had to say "I haven't been able to - yet."  

I'm still curious about your reactions to the ending.  So - I'm "hanging around", enjoying reading and considering your opinions.

[JoanP]

Sally, it's good to know that you have been with us - everyday!  I'm glad you bring up Eunice.  She doesn't seem quite real to me.  Looking back, I see that I made several notes on her behavior that didn't quite match the character Anne Tyler was presenting to us.  The way she "cagily" avoided Louise's questions - she actually lied (fibbed) when she told her she was Liam's neighbor - Liam tells us that Rowland Park was actually quite a distance from his place.  She isn't as naive not the  open book  she pretends to be.

Claire said somewhere that this book is more like a case study  than a novel.  Do you agree with that?  I think I agree, except the source is Liam - isn't the whole story told from his point of view?  Still, you've got something there, Claire.  

(Ella, you're right - there are novels with more substance, such as the Book Thief.  Don't judge Anne Tyler's slow-moving, introspective stories as typical of all, of most Fiction.  I guess what I'm trying to say to you, oh lover of Non-Fiction - there are as many kinds of Fiction as NonFiction.  Don't give up on all Fiction, okay?)

Some of you are eager to consider the book as a whole, not posting out of fear you will give away the ending.  I'm going to finish reading the book tonight - (am I the only one who hasn't finished?) -  promise to get back in a day or two.  We'll consider the whole book - hopefully that will bring back our silent partners.  Callie, I understand what you are saying about wishy-washy characters.  I'm sure Liam's ex-wife and daughters agree with you!

In the meantime, please post your comments on Chapters 7, 8 and 9.  As Pedln says, your "gems"  are what floats our boat!
  

[pedln]

Well, is this timely or not – from within today’s online New York Times


What Is a Philosopher?

Socrates tells the story of Thales, who was by some accounts the first philosopher. He was looking so intently at the stars that he fell into a well. Some witty Thracian servant girl is said to have made a joke at Thales’ expense — that in his eagerness to know what went on in the sky he was unaware of the things in front of him and at his feet. Socrates adds, in Seth Benardete’s translation, “The same jest suffices for all those who engage in philosophy.”

What is a philosopher, then? The answer is clear: a laughing stock, an absent-minded buffoon, the butt of countless jokes from Aristophanes’ “The Clouds” to Mel Brooks’s “History of the World, part one.”

[straudetwo]

Back as promised.  

Some reviewers have said,  a bit dismissively, that Tyler's characters are "quirky". Well, perhaps they are. Conformists they are certainly not. Also, some, including Liam, clearly march to a different drummer.  And yet there ARE  'odd' people like that, so why would it be wrong to write about them,  carefully, objectively, uncritically?  TWe can decide for ourselves whom we like and dislike. I will admitthat I find the alleged quirkiness rather endearing.

I like Tyler's stories. She usually begins with a simple idea, a notion,  an ordinary occurrence,  then we meet a protagonist,and from there the story unfolds.  In Noah's Compass we meet Liam, a 60-year old teacher who's lost his job, must downsize, moves into cheaper quarters and goes to bed.  Next he wakes up in the hospital with no recollection of what happened to him.  We meet members of Liam's family and, from his solitary musings,  learn more about his past. It is a slow process, but life is like that, isn't it? One day at a time. In the proces we are always waiting, waiting for something, more or less urgently ...

The characterizations are brilliant and I found myself nodding and smiling a lot,  e.g. about Damian, "a limp, wilted seventeen-year old"  who looked like an S carrying Liam's  Windsor chair on his head. Liam's  believes that Damian is perhaps " ...vacant" but actually a good guy, who could NOT have been the perpetrator of the assault on Liam, as his eldest daughter, Xanthe,  claims.

Tyler's has a knack for portraying people- and  the language they use- realistically and unhurriedly (Kitty  and the unnecessary"likes") Reading anything by Tyler requires patience, especially when the characters follow a path we readers think is completely nonsensic and makes us cringe.  Normally, people step up over time in their jobs or professions,  but  many do not, and liam is one of them. A bright boy with a promising future,  his career took a downward spiral. We are not told why.  Could we hazard a guess, time permitting?  But who are we to reproach him for his meekness and poor choices?  What is it to us as long as he is comfortable?  He well knows that in his last job in the private school he used only 10% of his brain.  (Also, he DOES have a plan, he mentions it in passing early on. - Moreover, Dr. Morrow , whose son Liam tutored, thinks highly of him.)

I do not believe that Liam intends to apply for a job at Cope Development.  IMHO he would not fit.  Improbably he 'latches on' to Eunice, but I think it's only because he hopes she might him retrieve his short-term lost memory. I think Eunice is an interesting character, psychologically.  Can't you just see her standing there in her outlandish skirts and tops, her midriff showing? The two of them would be totally incongruous in y humble opinion.

We have met Xanthe and Kitty;  in Chapter 7 we meet Liam's second daughter, Louise, and Noah, Liam's only grandson.  Their introduction brings a new element into the story and conveys an idea of what the book's title means.

I apologize for m absence and will be back tomorrow. Good night.

[kidsal]

I have been lurking and reading the comments.  I don't understand Liam.  He was in a job he didn't like and apparently made no effort to change.  But even retired he seems to have no interests.  He enjoys the solitary life but seems to have no intellectual curiosity -- no books, no TV, no interest in going out to cultural events, no -----------  What made Liam a dull boy?

[Steph]

To answer Pedlin and Mary.. I went to the U. of Delaware as instructed and took Home Ec.. Foods and nutrition .. which was incredibly boring. I have always been a really good cook.. If the Culinary Institute was something I had heard of way back then, that is where I would have wanted to go.. Foods, etc is more a dietician type of course.. And all I really wanted, was to cook.. I loved libraries my whole life, but did not really think I could be a librarian when young.. My examples were school librarians. It wasnt until I started genealogy and started going to research libraries, that I realized I would have loved that world.. Still do for that matter.

[straudetwo]

Kidsal,  we can't really understand Liam because his  modus vivendi is so different from what "normal" people do. What could he expect to DO with a degree in philosophy, other than teach at the university level?  

He does have books, though, and we saw him lovingly arrange them on the built-in shelves in the den that first day (before he took out the bed linen), He does not elaborate on what they are, but it is a safe bet that philosophical works are among them.  

We might ask, what practical value does philosophy have in daily life?  We don't see Liam applying his knowledge in any way - in fact, he is awkward at social gatherings,  avoids picnics and has only acquaintances, no real friends.  As Claire said, we'd find him boring.  

Back later, it's house cleaning day.

[mrssherlock]

I've missed out on this discussion; my life was OBE at the time it started and I missed the pick-up by date at the library for my reserved book, so I let it go.  Can someone give me a brief summary?  I don't have time now to read all the past posts.

[pedln]

Jackie, I’m so sorry you’ve missed most of the discussion because you always have such interesting comments to put forth.  You are forthcoming.  (That’s an inside joke here because Liam, the protagonist, was told by his ex-wife, that he was NOT forthcoming.)

Liam, the down-sized former teacher (with a degree in philosophy), in an effort to regain memory of what happened when his new, smaller apartment was broken into, has inadvertently become involved with Eunice, a woman 20 years younger, who is best described as “hapless.”

I am one of the few here who like/tolerate/accept Liam.  Most folks do not.  To get a picture of what’s gone on so far without reading ALL the posts – I would suggest you read those of JoanP.  She has summarized well and frequently has pointed out comments by others.  One of the questions that has come up is whether one needs to plan for retirement or not.

[mrssherlock]

pedln:  Thanks for the update advice.  I'd read Joan P's weather forecast if she posts it.  You, pedln, are another whose posts I eagerly look for.  I'll check out the past, and the library has the book for me again so I can start reading.   

[CallieOK]

It isn't that I don't like Liam.  I think he would be very interesting to visit with IF the other person could get on his wave length.  He is interested in his new experiences.
How sad that none of the other characters ever seem to be willing to wait for him to form his thoughts or listen when he tries to comment.

However, I think he would be terribly hard to live with since most of his opinions are never spoken.
Have you noticed how often Liam "assumes" or "hopes" that someone will react in a certain way?  I don't think it's ever happened.

Unfortunately, I had to return my copy to the library so I'm unable to check for details.

[Mippy]

Hi, everyone,
We have been on the road, visiting family, and today unpacking ...  also my computer would not connect to the Internet for most of the day.   Now that I've caught up on the posts ...

Eunice being married was not, IMHO, a good way to advance the plot.  As soon as I got to that, I starting picking apart the book, and decided I liked many of the earlier novels by Tyler much better.                        
Reading over the questions in the header, I hardly can find any on which to comment.  Was this book worth a month of discussion?  I had hoped it would be, but now that I've finished it, it's obvious I'm lukewarm.  I don't like the novel's portrait of Liam, I don't like the way he's so cool toward his grandson, and the hope of a future with Eunice  has fallen apart.   How about everyone else?  Was that expected?


 

[straudetwo]

All points are well taken.  Thank you for your insights.

Of course we are entitled to voice our opinions about the characters and anything else in a book we live with for a month.  Yet,  despite the protagonists' weaknesses and idiosyncracies,  this novel is not only about Liam,  as I read it, about family, in this sadly a  family manquée  = one that didn't make it, which is ostensibly Liam's fault.  And he knows it.  He blames himself for the death of his first wife, Xanthe's mother, and for failing to recognize the seriousness of her depression - until it was too late.  But he got lucky when he met Barbara,  who became his second wife, a good mother to little Xanthe and had two daughters with Liam, Louise and Kitty.

Liam was never really a part of the family, he took refuge in his  work, hisjob, such as it was, "and Barara finally gave up on hium and filed for divorce,"  as we learn from his musings in the hospital.  He considers that his second failure.  Obviously he's considering only his failure as a husband. But what abut his failure as a father ?  We are not told how often and where family members met when he lived in his first larger apartment,  but we're led to believe  that contact was infrequent and not alweays in person.  No wonder he is awkward with his first grandchild ! I could imagine that he surrounded himself with a protective cloak - to "insulate" himself from new amatory failures, or others from him.  But if so, couldn't he "melt" in the right circumstances?

With permission, I'd like to loosely label Noah's Compass as a sort of miniBildungsroman[ (=a composite noun, bildung = education, maturing, roman [novel) :    a novel which focuses on the psychological, moral and intellectal development of a (usually young) character.  
True, Liam is not young, but  who can say he might not learn to adapt ? And what might take ?

In Noah's Compass, Tyler is very much "with it" IMHO, she touches on a series of issues that concern young and old right here, right now :

the volence with which we live daily,
the potential to become a victim of an assault,  
the victim's loss of memory as a result,  
the loss of self-confidence,  
the attempt to bring back the memory by any means possible,  
new struggles and conflicts modern life has added (unwanted pregnancy),
independence in later years,

and unasked dreaded questions, like
Is retirement the end of our productive life?
And how to plan for it.  

The story began with Liam's downsizing, to which he could have objected, and his friend Bundy said he should - but that wasn't Liam's style.




 

[JoanP]

Mippy, I had a similar reaction to this book - because it  is the first Tyler book that I felt she  was missing her mark.    I keep waiting for Liam to live up to his potential.  I guess I'm  looking for the point Tyler is trying to make in the end.  To me, it will depend on whether or not Liam changes - with or without Eunice.  Tyler is keeping us in suspense - will he be able to forgive Eunice - and choose happiness over principle - or not? 

Weren't you at all interested in Liam's lack of interest in the burglar who has been apprehended?  That was all important to him, not so long ago.  Does this indicate that he has changed?

I didn't hold it against him that he wasn't closer to his grandson.  Clearly he had not seen much of him.  I think that comes from the distance between Liam and his daughter -  Traudee refers to Liam's failure as a father.   I'm hoping Tyler explains this distance before ending the book - or perhaps she's already done that.  It seems that he is making an effort to listen to Jonah, now that he is spending time alond with him -

Callie, the story seems to be written from Liam's point of view, don't you think?  Since he's the narrator, we are able to learn his unspoken thoughts and opinions.  He seems to shrug off explaining himself - as if the good opinion of others don't interest him.  What I didn't like about him was his self-righteousness - the way he silent criticized grammar...  He doesn't like it when people say "Take care."  I use it all the time without thinking - signing letters, etc.  Are people cringing when I do?  "Curmudgeon"  is the word I would use to describe him.    Which leads to the question - why is Eunice interested in this curmudgeonly fellow?  When she describes her husband, she sounds like Barbara must have sounded when she was married to Liam.

[JoanP]

Traudee, let's do that - let's consider Liam's psychological, moral and intellectal development when we look at the book as a whole. (I still haven't read chapters 11 &12.) I think that would be helpful to judge the book - whether or not Liam has grown and changed.

Jackie, in addition to Pedln's update-in-a-nutshell, let's add the question that seems to divide us - is Liam depressed or simply an unlikeable fellow who is doing his best to "endure."  If you think he's depressed, how can you dislike him and feel animosity towards him?  You've got to pity him, don't you?  He needs help.  Can Eunice provide what he needs? BUT, if you think he's just a self-centered introvert - does he deserve our disdain - and dislike.  Is it safe to say that if you dislike Liam, you dislike the book? 

Traudee and Claire would find him "boring" - if the main character of a novel is a boring person - does that make the book "boring"?  Why would an author take the chance? 

"We don't see Liam applying his knowledge in any way."  I love this observation, Traudee.  Think about it - his field is Philosophy!!! (Kidsal, Liam did keep  some books - we're told early on that he's downsized - given away all of his fiction and biography, but kept his Philosophers.

To me this is the supreme irony  - consider the meaning of the term - phil - love, of, sophy, wisdom.  One definition of philosophy - a person who regulates his or her life, actions, judgments, utterances, etc., by the light of philosophy or reason.  Kidsal asks an important question - "What made Liam a dull boy?"  He's studied the wisdom of the ages and yet he's   
 as the   NY Times  article describes a philosopher - " a laughing stock, an absent-minded buffoon" -

Another question occurs - what brought Liam to the study of Philosophy?  It is fascinating to read, but why would someone choose to make it their life's work?  Maybe he didn't.

Steph - what did you do with your degree in Home Ec?  What were you planning to do with it?  I would have put money on your choosing Library Science...

[kidsal]

Home Ec?  Some of my classmates took a degree in Home Ec.  Of course growing up in Ames, Iowa 32 miles north of Des Moines a few of them were hired by Good Housekeeping, Redbook, etc. to toil in their kitchens or write articles about housekeeping.  Many of these women's magazines were/are headquartered in Des Moines.
Wonder what is the relationship between Liam and Bundy?  He doesn't seem to derive much out of their friendship. 

[Steph]

As a product of the 50's education, I got married and for the first few years since my husband was a disc jockey and went from station to station, I got jobs that I could find.. Since I love math and was good at it. I ended up with bookkeeping jobs mostly. Then I had two kids.. Then I taught baking privately and also baked for restaurants ( desserts and breads) In 1979, I started researching genealogy after my mother died. Fell in love with research and did that for writers in Boston.. Then when we moved here, I owned and ran two stores..ONe a used book store and wrote newsletters for a financial analyst.. etc.. Never technically used the degree.. At least not the way they had in mind.. Nutritionist.. My roommate was just as bad.. She always wanted to take art and after graduation became a stewardess and then married. She taught art at a junior college and then started selling real estate. She owns a large real estate firm. We have always laughed at the non use of the education.

[salan]

Aha!  I now know why I did not like this book.  I didn't like Liam and he was the main character.  Overall, I was really disappointed in Noah's Compass.  I like Tyler's other books so much better.  Liam is not only removed from life; he also removed himself from this reader.  Several of you have described Liam as a curmudgeon.  I don't think he had enough personality to be a curmudgeon!  I got really aggravated/exasperated with him.  I did not feel sorry for him, but I did feel pity (does that make sense?). 

Straude, your postings always include words that I had forgotten about, or ones that send me to the dictionary.  Thank you for furthering my education.  That brings me to the point that I have enjoyed these discussions of Noah's Compass much more than reading the book.

Sally

[Mippy]

Sally ~  I agree that these book discussions always are great!   In fact, the discussion here is better than this book.   I wonder why Tyler has written such a depressing book.  Does it reflect something that has occurred in her life?

I was also mildly disappointed that the character of the area, Baltimore, did not come through as strongly as in, for example, the Accidental Tourist.   The story could have been in Cleveland or in Ft. Lauderdale.   I didn't get any "Bal - mur"  feeling here.    Most medium sized cities in the US  have strip malls and depressing apartment complexes.   Where is the flavor?

[mrssherlock]

Haven't  started my review of posts yet but have a few thoughts to share.  Does Liam exhibit Emile Durkheim's anomie, that failure of the individual to mesh with his society? In a narrow sense, Liam sounds like he is asocial, that is,

. . . characterised by an inability to 'empathise', to feel intimacy with, or to form close relationships with others (Davidson & Neale 1994).

  Think TVs House.  Is Tyler portraying an individual, or is she casting Liam as an Everyman,  the elderly in today's America?  Makes me wonder if Tyler couldn't adequately convey her character sympathetically to the reader.  If so, is her attempt a failure of the writer or the reader?  From a plot summary on the site Good Reads

From the incomparable Anne Tyler, a wise, gently humorous, and deeply compassionate novel about a schoolteacher, who has been forced to retire at sixty-one, coming to terms with the final phase of his life.

  This doesn't at all sound like the book you are discussing here.  http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6261277-noah-s-compass

[pedln]

Mippy, I agree with you about the lack of Baltimore flavor (not that I really know, having had limited contact)--  other than mentioning two main thoroughfares that run clear through the city, and referring to the area around Johns Hopkins.

With permission, I'd like to loosely label Noah's Compass as a sort of miniBildungsroman[ (=a composite noun, bildung = education, maturing, roman [novel) :    a novel which focuses on the psychological, moral and intellectal development of a (usually young) character. 
True, Liam is not young, but  who can say he might not learn to adapt ? And what might take ?

What an interesting point, Traude.  Would a Bildungsroman be something similar to a what we frequently call a coming-of-age novel?

Traude mentions Liam’s first wife, Millie, and that he blames himself for her death.  Tyler put Millie in the book from the very beginning, but we get a sense of Liam not wanting to think of her, and certainly not wanting to talk about her with Eunice.  I think he’s consumed with guilt about her and with the part he played or didn’t play in her death.

[pedln]

Is Tyler portraying an individual, or is she casting Liam as an Everyman,  the elderly in today's America?

Whoa, Jackie. Very interesting, Liam as Everyman.  I just now saw your post, and it ties in very nicely with thoughts below.

And also, as we see in Traude’s list of issues, this book is about much more than Liam.  Retirement, and also family relations are certainly big issues here.  Along with Noah, I’ve also been reading, perhaps sporadically, Bruce Frankel’s What Should I Do With the Rest of My Life, which has a wonderful. chapter about our Robby and how he overcame so many obstacles before reaching his goals.  The stories about these people are inspiring, and their achieving their goals certainly took planning.  Margie Stoll, in her 60’s, trained painfully and vigorously to achieve her personal best as a competitive senior runner.  She’ll be 70 in 2012 and plans to run in the Boston Marathon that year to take advantage of being one of the youngest in her age group – 70-75. (She inspired me to add an additional 300 yards to the half-mile I’ve been swimming, but unfortunately not any faster.)  Loretta Thayer is the widow of a farmer, had cooked off and on in cafes and diners, and was hugely admired and praised for her pies. At age 70, motivated by the 9/11 tragedy, she decided to purchase and reopen an abandoned diner so the folks in her farming community would have a place to gather for fellowship and good food.  It has now become a focal point for the people in her area in upstate NY.  (I haven’t made any pies yet.  Thought about it.  But have made two batches of popovers since reading that chapter, for the first time in 30 some years (fewer calories than in pie).)

Liam has been criticized for his lack of initiative, not that he has to be the fasted kid on the block, or the best cook  Do you know any Liams?  Are they, or is he, content?  I’m not exactly sure what my point is here, but as we look at retirement, is being enough, or must we be doing?

What’s your philosophy?

[JoanP]

Mippy, I'll admit the references to  Bal'mur were not quite as vivid, as recognizable as in previous Tyler novels...I'm thinking of Homesick Restaurant, Accidental Tourist and the like. Her references are more subtle in this novel -  perhaps  because she has not set the story in the city of Baltimore, but further out in Baltimore County.  Liam has moved out of the city near the Beltway to his daughters' dismay.  You're right, his neighborhood could be anywhere.  (Sadly, as the inner city grows, the surrounding areas are the run down strip malls with new construction as you come up   up N. Charles St. to the Inner Harbor and the Ball Field.
I think Tyler captured the flavor of old Baltimore, when she described Bunker St. and its decaying buildings. It was mighty interesting to me, though never explained, why Cope Development is located here on Bunker St...(I'm guessing it's because billionaire Israel Cope's father's bakery had been located here once.)
The waitress in the luncheonette who pads out in her mules and housecoat to serve Liam and Eunice coffee and Tastycakes - now that's something you don't see everywhere -  

I really believe she was describing Bal'mur as she sees it today.  Sad, but true.

[JoanP]

Sally writes of Liam -

"I did not feel sorry for him, but I did feel pity." 

  I've been thinking about this. I can understand that you don't feel sorry for him because he makes these choices himself about how he wants to live his life - but why do you pity him?  Because he could be so much happier if he made different choices?

Jackie suggests he might be suffering from  anomie, - a failure of the individual to mesh with his society?   Is this a reason to pity him?  Because he is so alone...even ithis is by choice?

Kidsal brings up his relationship with Bundy. Were you surprised to see him so at ease with Bundy - and Eunice?  He can't be completely asocial, can he? Kidal, I think Bundy's importance to Liam is the fact that he sees and accepts Liam as he is.  And  Bundy  was impressed with Eunice - Liam was glowing at Bundy's interest in her - as if her brilliance reflected back on Liam.  He does care what others think of him. 

[JoanP]

"Is Tyler portraying an individual, or is she casting Liam as an Everyman,  the elderly in today's America?"

Now that's a good question, Jackie.  If I'm remembering them correctly, Tyler's characters are individuals - eccentric individuals.  However, they - (this includes Liam) - usually have traits that the reader can relate to - and see themselves.  A really good question.   What do you others think?

Pedln asks - "do you know Liams? And are they content?"  It seems he just wanted to be left alone - to be, not to do.  I dunno - here's another question, Pedln - same theme - do YOU see yourself in Liam?

 Has Eunice changed him?  Would his retirement be very different if he were to marry this younger woman?  Do you think that's what frightened him - more than anything?

[ALF43]

Noah's Compass-  Ok I've thought a lot about it.  Nope I did not like this book.
I think it was Sally that said

"Noah didn't need a compass because he wasn't going anywhere."

 
Sadly, I agree 100%.  His apathy and sluggish personality bored me to death.  I became angry with him.  He reminds me of someone I knew that retired 3 years ago.  When asked "what he was going to do during retirement" he always responded, "Nothing, and it will take me all day to do it."
He died this past week- IMO he died from immobilization, lack on interest in anyone or anything and allowed his own lethargy to paralyze him and his family members.  So, NO, I dislike Noah.
Joan asked-

Traudee and Claire would find him "boring" - if the main character of a novel is a boring person - does that make the book "boring"?  Why would an author take the chance? 

 
Well it beats me why AT took the chance because aside from the various nuances of retirement, family obligations, etc. this book had no back bone nor depth.  Don't beat me up, it is just how I feel.  The one redeeming point about Noah's personality is that he didn't expect much of others.'
He was too detacted from his family and from himself to give a danm.