Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online

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TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online

Excellent Women

Quartet in Autumn

 

British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with  humor, a very dry humor.  Both Pym and Austen were  concerned with the marriage of their heroines,  before they become "spinsters." (Note that  Austen and Pym never married.)   It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage.  In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel.  Will this be the case with Pym?

The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952,  considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry  without the romance or risk remaining a spinster.   The woman is 31 years old!  
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers,  as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources.   Pym  is fascinated  by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
There is much to consider and discuss in these two novels.  

Discussion Schedule Excellent Women: *November 1 - 5  ~ Chapters 1 - 13 *November 6 - 10 ~     Chapters 14 - 27

Some Topics from Excellent Women for Your Consideration and Discussion beginning Nov. 1:  

1. From her portrayal of Mildred Lathbury, can you tell how Barbara Pym views the life of an unmarried woman, the spinster?

2. How does Mildred  see herself? How old is she?   Is she resigned to spinsterhood or is she still hopeful the right man will  come along?  At the start of the novel, do you think Mildred sees herself as one of the  excellent woman of the parish?

3.  What did you think of the male characters in Excellent Women?  Were any of them comparable to Jane Austen's men?  Were any of them interested in Mildred?

4. Do you find examples of Barbara Pym's Oxford education in her fiction?  Does she flaunt it?  Do you think Mildred attended university?

5. Barbara Pym's forte is said to be  comedy.  Would you say the same is true of Jane Austen?  Will you share some examples from Excellent Women?

6. Will you note and share some of the cosy details  characteristic of Pym's novels, especially the kitchen and cookery details?

7. Mildred seems to spend a lot of time in church.  Do you think it is because she grew up as a vicar's daughter or do you think religion was more important in the 50's than it  is now?

8.Finally, do  you see Mildred becoming one of the "Excellent Women"  of St. Mary's parish?

~~~

Related Links:
Barbara Pym Biography; Barbara Pym Society;

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Pedln (for Quartet in August )

Still on the blancmange/junket  junket - they are each quite different. We had them both during my childhood - chiefly served with poached stone fruit as a light dessert during summer. Can't remember how my mother made blancmange but junket was made using rennet dissolved in warmed milk and often flavoured with honey and topped with finely grated nutmeg.

[BarbStAubrey]

I have not finished the book nor am I half way yet - so far I do not see Mildred as an 'Anne Elliot' and none of the male characters have the self contained strength of a Captain Wentworth much less have any of the male characters shown a depth of feeling that would have them utter to Mildred that she pierced their soul.

Mildred is intelligent, kind, knowing and genteel seemingly content with  her life -  I see her immature in her love life more like a young teen who is flattered and turns red if she thinks a boy/man is attractive or, if he is kind or especially, if he appears to show in interest in her which she interprets as a love interest. Mildred must have led a very sheltered life

There was a phrase poking around in my head and sure enough, looked it up and yes, there was a book, The Rector's Daughter written in 1924 - Mildred does have many of the qualities of Mary Dedmayne however, I cannot imagine Barbara Pym would borrow hook line and sinker the experience of Mary with her Robert as a model for Mildred -  and so as a reader I too am as content as Mildred is characterized therefore, I am not imagining a final chapter where Mildred becomes an 'Excellent Woman'.

[JoanK]

I got the book yesterday from the library, and sat up last night reading it past the halfway mark. I can see why there is a Barbara Pym society. I like it very much.

I can also see why Pym is compated to Austen -- the small details, the sense of humor. But she really isn't like Austen -- as one of you commented, Austen's characters have a passion, always under the surface but there.

The only books I can think of that have a similar tone were written later -- Alexander McCall smith's Philosophy club series. I wonder if he borrowed the tone from Pym.

The thing that stands out for me beyond the way Pym draws us into Mildred's world, the delicious details, and the humor, is how little Mildred thinks of herself. She has a life full of friends and meaningful work (although sounding like the life of a much older woman) but she keeps putting herself down as worthless (in contrast to McCall-Smith's protagonist, living a similar life, but content with it). This, of course, is the way society sees her, but doesn't have to be the way she sees herself.

Even her neighborhood, which she loves, she keeps putting down. She loves it, but it's not good enough for anyone else. So we don't really get to feel the neighborhood, or see why she loves it.

I hope the ending will be that Mildred sees that her neighborhood, and she, herself, are worthy of love.

[PatH]

I'm having a hard time deciding how much it's Mildred thinking little of herself and how much it's Mildred seeing what the world must think of her and quietly laughing at it.

[BarbStAubrey]

I wonder Joan do you think she loves her neighborhood or does she simply tolerate it as she appears to tolerate her closest friends.

The one connection I felt or at least the mental chatter she uses to pass negative judgement wasn't present during her relationship with Mrs. Morris. Then I thought I wonder if that has to do with station in life - Mrs. Morris,  a cleaning 'maid' allows Mildred not to be on the lowest rung of the ladder. And then Helena shows a recognition of Mildred's coup when she asks her the favor of having Mrs. Morris clean the communal bathroom.

Mildred seems to feel 'separate from' - not abandoned - she knows she is not an 'Excellent Woman' and therefore, not worthy of the regard that accompanies the excellent women. Mildred makes her limiting choices because she sees herself as less than - Yes, great, your idea for her self-awareness and self-respect is so right-on however, I wonder if we can say that now or, would we agree with Mildred's choices if we were living back in the 1950s.

The 50s was a time when many women attended college or university to obtain their MRS rather then a BA or BS. When being married was the only goal for young women. In fact, when you think it is amazing to read about a women who sounds almost sanguine with her life by putting her choices in as realistic tone as possible while nodding to societies opinions at the time.

I see the foods mentioned like the neighborhood described are all on the edge of respectability - attempting to be upper class but not quite making it which would be the foil for not being among the excellent. I see it all as a piece describing the temperament of Miss Lathbury.

Hmmm a thought, I wonder if this story is all tongue and cheek - according to Roget's the opposite of excellent is:  poor, inferior, undesirable, unfit, unsuitable, troublesome, objectionable, inept, clumsy, awkward, disadvantaged, unwieldy, unprofitable.

All these words fit Mildred and yet, there is something there that shows her on the edge of gentility and satisfied with herself. As a 'poor, inferior' etc. personality her gentility is also a 'poor' attempt that is inferior and no longer desirable by the 'moderns' therefore, she borders on being seen as troublesome, objectionable definitely unsuitable except, she does have a useful Mrs. Morris in her life - again, on the edge.  And so, I am looking for this story to show her tip one way or the other off that edge  - to sink into the world that measures class and genteelness, if there is such a word as compared to being her own women proud of her life choices.

[rosemarykaye]

Alexander McCall Smith is indeed a great Pym fan (of course!  I can't imagine him not being).  But Isobel Dalhousie in the Sunday Philosophers' Club series isn't really like Mildred, IMO - for one thing, she has £12 million in the bank, and for another she has her youthful lover Jamie, who seems to worship the ground she walks on (one of the things that irritate me about that series is that Isobel's life is just too perfect - she eventually also has a perfect baby who never cries!  The Scotland Street series is much better.)

Rosemary

[BarbStAubrey]

Hadn't heard of Alexander McCall Smith and when I looked up some of his work it said the Dalhouseie series was a mystery while the Scotand Street series is simply English and about characters living in a boarding house or a hotel - is that how you would describe the two sets of stories Rosemary?

[rosemarykaye]

The Scotland Street series is about a set of characters (and their friends) living in a tenement block in the New Town of Edinburgh.  The New Town is the smartest part of the city, with astronomical property prices, although many people would have bought there years ago when it wasn't so expensive.  Some of the flats in the New Town (though not in Scotland St) command prices of well over £1 million.  Most of the Scotland Street characters are not particularly wealthy, although i do think McCall Smith uses a fair bit of artistic licence in allowing them to live at such a prestigious address and often not have any "proper" jobs.  Anyway, 44 Scotland St is definitely not a boarding house, rather a building divided into separate flats.   And it is definitely not English!  it is Scottish through and through, although mainly it is Edinburgh, which is a very particular brand of Scottish.

The Isobel Dalhousie books do have vague detective story plots, but they really are very vague indeed, and are in many ways just a vehicle for McCall Smith to write about different aspects of the city.  I really don't think anyone would read them for the detective content - the enjoyable bits are all about Isobel's life mixing with the good and great of Edinburgh - McCall Smith is an inveterate name dropper and knows just about everyone in Edinburgh, but you forgive him because he writes so well.  But as I said earlier, I still get irritated by Isobel - her life is just too charmed.  The woman has a daily housekeeper, even when she is living alone and presumably not making anything dirty!  Despite all this, I still find myself looking forward to the next one.  McCall Smith just has a way of writing that I find irresistible, and I love hearing him on the radio reading his own work - he even laughs at his own jokes, and seems to enjoy it all so much.

Rosemary

[JudeS]

Maybe I am looking at this book differntly (I have only read seven chapters since I got the book yesterday PM).
Both my parents are British and seven of my fathers siblings and ten of my Mothers went through WW2 and sent us letters about it.  My mother always read me the letters no matter how young I was.  I grew up thinking that England is a sad place, ravaged by war. And indeed there were 580,000 thousand dead and wounded (soldiers) plus 60,000 civilians killed from the bombing. All my relatives lived in London.
There were not too many young men around after the war. If Mildred is 31 in the book she spent her young adult life ,19-25,during the war years. Perhaps just being left alive was enough for her though she doesn't mention that. Her world of genteel drabness is still not as bad as the war years when shortages of everything was rampant.
She grew up a "church child" and it seems never to occur to her to rebel against her upbringing. She seems to take what comes as her due and expects nothing better.  So far though the book is tinged with humor (I can't say funny) it seems a very sad life our heroine lives and most sadly expects no better for her lonely self.
Perhaps the author is saying  "This is what a loveless life is like."
 

[Babi]

 "Excellent Women" was in the mailbox when Val checked it last night.  I've barely gotten started
and have a lot of catching up to do, but I very much like what I've read so far. 
  Please clarify...are you discussing the two books simultaneously?   If not, which one are you
on now?  If so, how do you keep them distinct?

[JoanP]

Good morning, Babi!  Welcome! Your book is in your hands!  Great!  For the first 10 days of November, we're discussing "Excellent Women"  (see schedule in the heading.  Starting Nov. 11, we'll move into Quartet in August.  I suppose that should be added to the heading too.  Will do.)  We look forward to hearing your thoughts after you get started today.

 Jude, delighted to have you with us this morning.  Thanks you for reminding us of  what life must have been like in post-war London. Every once in a while we get a glimpse of the city - like the Lenten service in the church, half of which is full of bombing rubble. ( Rosemary, were you living in London before moving to Scotland?)
Jude's post adds to Pym's somewhat puzzling portrayal of Mildred - as one of the "excellent women"  of the parish. Though the book's title is "Excellent Women" - this  is really Mildred's story, isn't it?  As you see it , the book is "tinged with humor -  it seems a very sad life our heroine lives and most sadly expects no better for her lonely self.
Perhaps the author is saying  "This is what a loveless life is like."

In a number of instances, Mildred refers to herself as a "spinster" - she refers to the "elderly ladies and dim spinsters"  She refers to unmarried women with no ties who could very well become unwanted."  "Not really first in anyone's life.

So she's not a married woman -and as Barbara describes her - "she knows she is not an 'Excellent Woman' and therefore, not worthy of the regard that accompanies the excellent women."

  PatH - I understand what you are saying here -
" I'm having a hard time deciding how much it's Mildred thinking little of herself and how much it's Mildred seeing what the world must think of her and quietly laughing at it."
JoanK -
" She has a life full of friends and meaningful work (although sounding like the life of a much older woman) but she keeps putting herself down as worthless (in contrast to McCall-Smith's protagonist, living a similar life, but content with it). This, of course, is the way society sees her, but doesn't have to be the way she sees herself."

  PatH - I understand what you are saying here -
" I'm having a hard time deciding how much it's Mildred thinking little of herself and how much it's Mildred seeing what the world must think of her and quietly laughing at it."

In a humorous aside, she observes - "virtue can be a little depressing."  The question occurs  - does Mildred even want to be one of the "excellent women?"
I'm seeing Mildred as lonely, but this seems to be a state in which she has become accustomed -
She  has carved out a life for herself in which she is relatively content.  Until Mrs. Napier moves into her flat.  

"I am not imagining a final chapter where Mildred becomes an 'Excellent Woman'" Barbara  

Or would she rather be swept off her feet - and married - a happy Jane Austen ending? Does she have opportunities? How do you see Mildred?  Truly content with her life as it is...or no?  

[bellemere]

In all Miss Lathbury's musings about men, there is no mention of the huge loss of young men of her generation in
WWII.  With fewer men, there must have been a big growth spurt in the spinster population.   
Rockingham is admittedly a shallow person, but gets away with it by being "charming" so Mildred tends forgive him. he gets her involved in his messy marriage , to her distaste, especially the arguments over furniture.  Julian is the secret hearthrob of excellent women, but is fatally flawed by a weakness for Allegra's schemes. , William was stodgy and dependable, but she finds his devotion to his office window pigeons to be both endearing an pitiable. Everard displays some interest but loses points when his dinner invitation obviously includes cooking the roast for him.
With the end of WW11, the "upper " classes also waned and Everard's mother is a wonderful example of the English eccentric.  In fact, she is the one who most reminds me of an Austen character, or even a Dickens character, sorry, so bad at remembering names.

[rosemarykaye]

I was indeed living in London - I was born in the London suburbs and didn't move to Scotland until i was 32, although I lived in Cambridge for a while in between.
I was born in 1958, ie after the war, but I do remember that when we took the train in and out of the centre, there were still lots of old bomb sites, and also many "prefabs" - cheap little houses put up after the war as emergency measures - they were supposed only to last  couple of years but wree still there 20 years later.

My mother was born in London and still lives there.  She was evacuated during the war, first to the south coast (good thinking, government!  it was the first place to be bombed!), then to rural Wales.  She came from a very poor and not very happy family, and she had a wonderful time in Wales and didn't want to come back.  However, her mother came and took her back to London just as the blitz started; for many years she couldn't understand this, but eventually she found out that her mother had to pay the host family for having her, and they simply couldn't afford it any more.  As a result my mother and her sisters (she is the youngest of 5) were in London throughout the Blitz and the restof the war.  She has a vivd memory of coming out of the Saturday morning "pictures" on top of Eltham Hill and seeing a ring of fire around London.

There is a lovely novel by Nina Bawden called Carrie's War about some children who are evacuated to Wales and have a much less enjoyable time than my mother did, but eventually meet some very interesting characters - it was televised many years ago and I can still remember Dorothy  Tutin (I think it was her) and her wonderful portrayl of Hepsibah.

Rosemary

[JudeS]

Rosemarykaye
I saw Carrie's War and it is indeed an excellent film.

Bellemere
I also thought of Dickens while reading this but I can't figure out why.  Strangely, Uriah Heap and his "I am a humble person",
comes to mind.

Does our heroine have a different metabolism than other people?  She seems to to have an ascetics lackof appetite for food (except when a man friend,  buys her food in a restaurant) , is not disturbed by bad dreams or carnal deaires.  She has an observing eye, which William says , is a reason not to marry. Well, I have read only nine chapters so I have hopes that the book will gather speed as I continue.

[fairanna]

How good it is to read all the  comments...By the way I was in England and DOVER and London and some places in between in 1952 and a lot of Europe and London had many places that had been destroyed and the rubble was still there. We were very fortunate not to have all that here..but the next time I feel it wiil be different..I find Mildred very intelligent and  has a droll sense of humor ..I didnt keep notes but I remember quietly laughing at some of the things she said....since so many of the men that would be her age had been killed in the war I think she just accepted what she saw as her life to be.

If there hadnt been any like the Napier's to change her life ..she most likely would'nt have have changed....I love her "quotes" some very familiar to me. I just love who she is and how she acts and reacts to what life has handed her...and in many ways I find her very adventuresome  I LOVE HER>>>anna

[JoanK]

Rosemarykaye: " But Isobel Dalhousie in the Sunday Philosophers' Club series isn't really like Mildred, IMO - for one thing, she has £12 million in the bank, and for another she has her youthful lover Jamie, who seems to worship the ground she walks on (one of the things that irritate me about that series is that Isobel's life is just too perfect - she eventually also has a perfect baby who never cries!"

I agree with you completely, especially about her unbelievable experiencesas a mother (although I deliberately mentioned the first book, before McCall Smith's heroine got a lover). And the big difference that, even before lover, she seems very happy with herself. It is something about the style of writing that strikes me as similar, more than the characters: the absobtion in a world of small, everyday details. Except for the differences in self-worth of the characters, reading the two book has much the same "feel" for me.

Your description of the differances makes me wonder about money in "EW". We are told that Mildred has a small income, and it's not mentioned again. But I begin to wonder how much she feels her life constrained by that small income. There is one scene where she buys stuff for dinner, then talks about how boring her dinner is (fish without sauce -- she doesn't deserve sauce). I got very mad at her at this point -- if she thinks this is boring, why didn't she buy something else. Or make sauce! Or go out to eat! Is it lack of selfesteem, or money.

[ursamajor]

I think it is likely both lack of self esteem and lack of money; also lack of motivation that keeps Mildred eating the fish without sauce.  Too much trouble just for me... also I don't think she can afford to be extravagant.  A small income just goes so far.

As to Mildred's contentment with her lot, I think many unmarried people feel that way.  There are important gains in living alone.  I remember when I was taking a college class in sex education (for my sins, for failing physical education in an earlier incarnation) an unmarried woman in the class, also in her 40s, said to me in the restroom about sex that "It is just such a small part of life.."  She had a career in some church related area and was perfectly satisfied with her life.  I thought of my husband and five children (still at home at the time) and thought "It's all in your point of view."

[JoanK]

I'm not sure that Mildred really WANTS to live with someone else. That's what she is SUPPOSED to want, but every time there's an actual opportunity, she feels it won't do: she's glad her friend has left and immediately rejects the thought of the Vicar's sister moving in. The eligible men in her life she feels "won't do".

It seems that dhe's one of those people who is happiest living alone: and yet she's always feeling sorry for herself for being alone. Which way will she go?

[BarbStAubrey]

aha - the end of chapter 12 - the plot thickens and the worm turns - so she does desire marriage even a bad marriage than none at all.

[nlhome]

I guess I have a different view of Mildred. I don't have the book anymore to reread portions, but she reminded me of a neighbor who would walk in and clean up, help where needed, asked or not, just go ahead and do the homely little things. She, too, was involved in her church, accepted her life and moved forward, enjoying the little things. I always wondered what was going through her mind. She didn't seem to question things, yet I suspect she was also quietly laughing at herself and sometimes at those around her. I didn't think it was so much a sad life as one of lower expectations.

[BarbStAubrey]

nlhome your post just hit my tickle bone because I am thinking that Mildred is really in the middle of everyone's life - most of the other characters flitter around with no strong foundation or strong moral belief as they imagine love or, false love or, other people's intent where as Mildred seems like a calm sea with history and tradition and place firmly in their place within her - and she seems to hold no grudges - she uses her humor where others trance around their emoitons.

And then I thought - she is in the middle of great diplomacy - it is all according to who the characters are as it if the diplomatic event is worthy of the news, history books or the makings of a novel. And then it hit - and sure enough this to me is funny - Remember Nixon and Khrushchev's Kitchen diplomacy - of course then, likening someone to Khrushchev would have been terrible - a mark of outrageous disrespect - but now, years later the outcome no longer matters so that we can review the event like a play rather than an event that would affect world politics - so here is the dialogue from that famous Kitchen debate - Now doesn't Khrushchev sound just like our Mildred?

http://www.watergate.info/nixon/1959_nixon-khrushchev-kitchen-debate.shtml

[BarbStAubrey]

Well I finished it - anti-climactic - what a let down - it was a fun read and some wonderful tongue and check moments of humor but sheesh... ah so... I did want a good final read before my eye surgery - well I still have time this weekend... My used copy of "There Goes the Bride" another Agatha Raisin mystery arrived in the mail and Ha Jin's "A Free Live"  is waiting for me and so I will get started and maybe I can finish both with all I have to do before Tuesday morning.

I liked Barbara Pym's attempt at including a bit of Mildred in the middle of a Stream-of-consciousness - I have this bit of Rebecca West calligraphy framed in my work room since the mid-eighties - difficult to remember now what a revolutionary idea this was for me back then - never the less,  it is what I hope that Mildred would hang in her kitchen while she could still benefit for the quote... which goes...

I myself have never
     been able to fin
out precisely What
     feminism is
I only know that
     people call me
         a feminist
whenever I express
     sentiments
that differentiate me
     from a doormat.

I saw flashes of Mildred capable of being her own person when she turned down Everard's  invitation to dinner that she assumed meant she was to cook and when she saw an advantage to herself of learning to index Everard's book. However, by and large Mildred is simply a good woman of her times that today we would label as 'the perfect daughter' therefore, needing at the least therapy to change her behavior and outlook. But then maybe she was being less of a doormat than I envisioned - she saw the risks of marriage and this way had things on her terms with more than one man - no intimacy but then who knows how her life-story would continue.

[salan]

I don't find Mildred unhappy.  She doesn't reject the idea of marriage, but doesn't pursue it, either.  On the whole, I think she is mostly content with her life.  Perhaps with "flashes" of what could have been.  I like the subtle sense of humor in this book.  I must admit that I get aggravated with Mildred for doing what people expect of her even though she doesn't want to do it.  Consequently, she lets others take advantage of her.  I do so want her to stand up for herself. 
Yeah, my copy of Quartet arrived yesterday.  I am almost finished with EW.
Sally

[Babi]

  I'm glad to learn from the posts that the time frame is post-WWII. I've been wondering. The social atmosphere seems to be of an earlier period, but there are also signs of a more modern time.
  I think it's perfectly natural that Mildred could be contented living alone, and still have times when she felt lonely.  I lived alone for many years. Now that I am older, tho, having a daughter living with me is a tremendous blessing. Changes happen, and Mildred is adjusting to some of those changes. There's bound to be some ambiguity there. I'll be
interested to see how it finally settles out for her.

[bellemere]

One more mystery food item needng explanation from Brits or
Aussies out there.  On page 34 of my edition of EW, Mildred is preparing a "foreign egg" for her lunch.  What the ?

[JudeS]

In chapter 12, at the end ,there are thoughts and words of Mildred, to Dora, that definitely seem to show she is not sure her status as an umarried (or unloved) woman is acceptavle.
D:....."We've had a lucky escape, if you ask me."
M:  A lucky escape ? I thought sadly. But would we have escaped, any of us, if we had been given the opportunity to do otherwise?
     "Perhaps it's better to be unhappy than not to feeel anything at all", I said.
                       "Oh Love, they wrong thee much
                         That say thy sweet is bitter....."

      Dora looked at me in astonishment.

     So Mildred does not accept her role as a spinster so easily and she definitely has second thoughts about missing out on love.Does this reflect the thoughts of the author....I wonder.  This little sequence gave me the impetus to look at the book
not as a positive spin on  spinsterhood and accepting your lot in life but seeing it as a sorry tale of those who have not loved and lost but those who have never,or can't love.
   I am only up to chapter 16 but will finish the book today. Perhaps the prism of my thoughts will turn again by tomorrow.

[JoanP]

Babi - - the fact that this story is set in post WWII days in the 50's - is really important to understand Mildred, I think.  There is a significant shortage of men - they can be choosey.  Mildred's situation is far from unusual.  There are many "spinsters" - the "excellent women,"  in the making as the eligible pool of men grows smaller.  
Most of them, Mildred included, would rather have married.  But would they have married anyone who asked, for the sake of being married?  Even unhappily married?

Jude posts the telling passage - in which Mildred considers whether it is better to be unhappy than not to feel anthing at all.  When Mildred and Dora attend their school reunion, Mildred observes that the ring on the left hand defined success...although she noted that imagined husbands were more interesting than they probably were.  I can't imagine Mildred marrying someone she does not find interesting - just to be married.

It's becoming clearer that it's the plain women  who are being left behind - the attractive ones get all the attention. Helena, Allegra Gray -  Notice that Mildred is dressing better now, paying more attention to her appearance.  Is it to attract a husband - or to attract Rocky and outshine Helena?  But Rocky is not even a remote possibility.  He makes her feel  good about herself - that's the thing.  He makes her feel witty and interesting - unlike the other excellents.

But life goes on - the many unmarrieds find work, and interests to fill their days.  Some of them find contentment.  Even Mildred.
Bellemere, your question about the "foreign egg"  took up most of my time in a search this morning.  Don't you find it interesting that Mildred cooks such bland fare for herself - yet she falls asleep reading exotic cookery books. Do you think a foreign egg is imported?  I did find mention of a "foreign egg whisk"  - but nothing to describe what one would use it for...
Are you all set for TEA with the Pym Society, Bellemere?  Have we helped with any questions for you to take to the gathering?

Back in a few minutes - with some biographical information on the author...

[JoanP]

 nlhome - happy to see you here!  Welcome!.
I agree,we need a new definition for "happy" perhaps - as you said -  Mildred's   isn't so much a sad life as one of lower expectations. - Her story is stream-of-consciousness, isn't it...I think Barbara talked about that.  We know what's going on in her head.  I don't want to talk about the end of the book just yet - there is a surprise that Rosemary hinted at earlier - but let's wait until the end when everyone one has finished.

Have you finished the first thirteen chapters?  On the last page of chapter 13, we see Mildred tidying her belongings.  All these years she has kept the framed portrait of the young man, "I once imagined myself to be in love with."  It didn't work out - "he talked mostly about life and himself - never about her."  But did you notice that it was the young man who broke it off - met someone else while on a holiday.  Mildred was 19 years old at the time.  We are told that he broke it off - "not gently."

When Barbara Pym was 19 - a student in Oxford, she had a romance with another student - Henry Harvey... It was this young man she would later refer to as "the love of my life."  He too broke of their relationship for someone else - though they did remain friends for life.  This same early lost  love finds its way in all of her ten novels.[/b]

Oh and here's another romance - after her years at Oxford, Pym became a WREN, had a romance - which ending badly too.  I'm wondering if the young man wasn't the Rocky prototype.  I'm glad Mildred is on to Rocky - though he sure had her going for a while.

Rosemary[/b], I'm writing this from memory - please feel free to  correct if not accurate.

  Pym's heroines seem to be seeking this lost youthful romantic love - Is this why they say you never really get over your first love? (Did you?)

[rosemarykaye]

I am wondering if we are barking up a few wrong trees here.

I have asked my mother, who was 18 when the war ended in 1945, and she says there was no shortage of men in London whatsoever.

I think Mildred is one of those women who just aren't sufficiently assertive, attractive, glamorous or whatever to "get a man" at a young age.  there are still plenty of women like that - there are a couple who work in our local library, and (although I know one shouldn't make snap judgements based on appearances) you can tell that they have not much idea about clothes, and are quite quiet people.  In the first "round" of matchmaking, it is always the pretty, confident, not to mention acne-free, girls who are snapped up.  This does not necessarily mean that their partnerships will last, but I do think that the others (ie girls like me!!) meet their partners later.  Of course they are likely to suffer from low self-esteem - the entire western world revolves around appearances and success, and these girls know early on that they are not considered worthy by boys at school, etc.  It reminds me of Janis Ian's song "Seventeen" - my friends and I used to feel it had been written specifically about us!

I think Mildred is very wise and knows what is going on, but feels that that is just the way of the world.  I also feel that she in some ways enjoys her own peace and quiet.  I used to think that Everard was appalling in asking her to come to his flat to cook some meat, but I have come round to the idea that it is just his rather awkward way of asking her out.  Everard is a good egg - and speaking of which -


a foreign egg is, I think, simply an imported one.  During the war there were no eggs (viz the book "Few Eggs and No Oranges", which is a wonderful record of day to day life in Notting Hill during the war).  There was powdered egg, which was by all accounts horrible, and presumably after the war foreign egges were imported but were considered inferior.

I have a copy of the Stork War Time Cookery Book - (Stork is a brand of margarine) - it has lots of things to do with powdered egg, and also what to do with your pudding if there is an air raid and you have to turn off the oven in mid-cook to go to the air raid shelter.

Rosemary

[Gumtree]

I finally managed to collect my book today - I stopped at the bookshop and bought it on the way to the dentist and read a few pages in the waiting room... took my mind off the ordeal ahead...

My copy has a short, rather bland introduction by Alexander McCall Smith in which he makes the well worn Jane Austen/Pym comparisons about using a small canvas to write about small things in small lives.
He also makes the point that after a period of neglect, Pym's work was championed by Phillip Larkin and David Cecil writing in the Times Literary Supplement,   which rather reminded me of George Eliot's reputation being resurrected to such good effect by F.R. Leavis - though Leavis didn't use the TLS.  McCall Smith says that the Pym revival was in 1977 and that since then interest in her work has never waned and that her reputation continues to grow.

So how come I  had such a time locating a copy of the books here in the antipodes.


Anyway, I've started the book and should catch up in a day or so.

So far as 'foreign eggs' are concerned - I can only guess they were sourced from abroad but the question is from where?  Perhaps even Australia- our trade with UK in goods was immense until EU came into effect and Britain dropped our existing trade agreements.


 

[JoanK]

Well I read to the end of the book a day early. I couldn't wait to get back to it, and now I've finished, I can't wait to start "Quartet in Autumn." Pym is addictive, isn't she.

I read too fast. Now, I want to read it again and pick up all the little things I missed.

SPOILER ALERT: don't read the following if you haven't finished te book.

The world has changed a lot since the fifties. When Mildred is asked to do substantial professional work, she doesn't even think to ask "How much do you pay?" It never even occurs to her.

It reminds me of when I was in charge of the speakers bureau for the local chapter of NOW. We charged a (rather small) amount for a speaker. The Lions Club called and asked for a speaker. I told him the fee (I think it was $25, I don't remember, but certainly an amount the Lions Club could afford). He said that they usually gave the speaker a bunch of flowers. "Flowers are nice", I said, "but we prefer to be paid for our work." He was dumbfounded, said he'd call me back. I never heard from him again.

I laugh to think what would have happened if Mildred had told Everard Bone "Of course, I charge ------ for such work."

(By the way, I love that name. Everard Bone -- can't you just see him.

[PatH]

JoanK, thanks for the "spoiler alert".  Ever since this morning, I've been wary about reading posts, because I haven't read ahead.  I'll do so tonight, then look at the posts again.

Like you, I read it too fast, and am now rereading the first half before going on.  There are so many wry little understated remarks that make me smile.

[PatH]

Rosemarykaye, thanks for the explanation about the "foreign egg"; I was about to ask--knew it implied something, but not what.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh dear - I didn't pay attention that there was a schedule and thought I was behind and that everyone had finished the book since it was a two week read - ouch - but it may be that folks overlooked my post from yesterday - I hope so - or maybe just maybe I was not too specific - I hope I hope I hope...

Have an older cousin who married an English sailor during the early days of the war - they traveled to Canada to be married but I was young enough not to know why - I do know the family was upset with her - she was out of high school but I think barely - anyhow after the war they emigrated back to the US. since their little one was only 6 months old he could travel with my cousin where as her daughter who was two and a half had to wait to come with Ken on his visa.

It took over a year before he finally came and in the meantime  un-be-knowings to either of them Florence was pregnant so Ken had another little boy when he arrived in the US. The big memory I have is the boxes and boxes of basics that Florence with the family's help assembled and mailed - I remember there was I think Bourbon hidden inside a loaf of bread and it worked. All sorts of canned goods and paper goods as well as some articles of clothing were boxed and mailed. I remember asking how come and learning how much longer it took for recovery in England as compared to here in the States where there was no bombing.

[nlhome]

BarbstAubrey, I like that "woman in the middle" - That is what I see, I think. I also liked the  calligraphy you quoted.

Mildred was in the middle - and maybe she liked it that way. Like my neighbor, she could be there and even mediate, but she did nothave to be seriously involved.

I do know women who have never married, and I really don't know why - but sometimes I think they are not inclined to share or compromise.

[JoanP]

Rosemary...you shot holes in the theory that the eligible young ladies outnumberd the men because of  heavy  war casualties.  Of course I don't question your mother's memory - she was 18 at this time and lived in London -  but how can you explain NO SHORTAGE of men following WWII?  At first I thought your mom may have been one of the attractive ladies, with lots of attention so she didn't notice.  But you sound certain that there were plenty of young men in London at this time.  How can this be?
"Foreign eggs" - I assume they were powdered too?

Bellemere - please be sure to report back from the tea tomorrow.  We are anxious to hear all about it - and how your black walnut cake was received too!

Barb - glad you noticed the schedule.  We'll spend five more days starting tomorrow on the second half of Excellent Women - and then on Nov. 11, will begin Quartet in Autumn, in which we'll meet a Senior "spinster"  -  I still can't use the word without putting it in quotes)  - who is about to retire from her place of employment.
 Those of us who have avoided comments from the second half of Excellent Women will consider your posts beginning tomorrow.

PatH - I think rereading Excellent Women is an excellent idea - it's actually better the second time around!

[JoanK]

Having been an Anglican (the US branch of C of E), I loved all the "high church/low church" references. The closer the service is to a Catholic service, the "higher" the church. The deviding point seems to be the use of incense (horrors!!) in the service. Low churchers wouldn't dream of going to a church that used incense.

It's not only Anglicand who can be very critical of their fellow celebrants. A Jewish friend told me the following joke:

A Jewish man was castaway on a desert island. He lived there for 10 years, with no other person for hundreds of miles. Finally, a ship came and resued him.

"Tell me" said the captain. "What did you do all this time?"

"I'll show you" said the man. He led them to one side of the island where he had built a beautiful synagogue to worship God.

"That's wonderful" said the captain. "Wait" said the man. He led them to the other side of the island, where he had built another synagogue, almost as beautiful as the first.

"See that synagogue" he said. "I wouldn't be caught dead worshipping there."

[PatH]

Mildred's supper of baked beans, eaten hurriedly in 10 minutes, "without dignity" reminded me that I had some baked beans I had been meaning to try, so that was my supper (with some other stuff).  However, I ate my beans in a leisurely fashion, with great dignity  talking to JoanK on the phone throughout, and not  leaving the second half of the can for tomorrow.

JoanK, tee hee hee.

[rosemarykaye]

JoanP - re the men question, I do think that my mother was probably fairly confident, as she was the youngest of 5 and quite outgoing, but I asked her about this again yesterday (gave us something to talk about during the interminable wait at the dentist!) and again she said that there were plenty of men around.  She says at the end of the war many men came back (she compared it with the first world war, when casualties were, I believe, heavier, and where a whole generation of women did in fact have almost no men to go around).  She said that there were also still plenty of American and Commonwealth (Canadian, Australian) men in London, and that she had a great time. 

JoanK - that made me laugh, and it's so true.

nlhome - yes, that was another thing my mother and I discussed - as I have mentioned before, she has a friend who has never married and lives alone, and mother said this friend is very rigid in her views and has to have everything just so.  but is that why she didn't marry, or a result of not having married?

Rosemary

[Gumtree]

If I understand correctly from the posts here, EW is set during the early 1950's - if so, then by that time all Australian servicemen serving overseas would have been repatriated. Most were home by 1947/8 and those who weren't were generally located in the Pacific Islands or were part of the occupation forces in Japan. By that time very few would still be in Britain.