Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online

[rosemarykaye]

 

TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online

Excellent Women

Quartet in Autumn

 

British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with  humor, a very dry humor.  Both Pym and Austen were  concerned with the marriage of their heroines,  before they become "spinsters." (Note that  Austen and Pym never married.)   It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage.  In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel.  Will this be the case with Pym?

The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952,  considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry  without the romance or risk remaining a spinster.   The woman is 31 years old! 
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers,  as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources.   Pym  is fascinated  by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
There is much to consider and discuss in these two novels. 

Discussion Schedule Excellent Women: *November 1 - 5  ~ Chapters 1 - 13 *November 6 - 10 ~     Chapters 14 - 27

Some Topics from Excellent Women for Your Consideration and Discussion beginning Nov. 1:  

1. From her portrayal of Mildred Lathbury, can you tell how Barbara Pym views the life of an unmarried woman, the spinster?

2. How does Mildred  see herself? How old is she?   Is she resigned to spinsterhood or is she still hopeful the right man will  come along?  At the start of the novel, do you think Mildred sees herself as one of the  excellent woman of the parish?

3.  What did you think of the male characters in Excellent Women?  Were any of them comparable to Jane Austen's men?  Were any of them interested in Mildred?

4. Do you find examples of Barbara Pym's Oxford education in her fiction?  Does she flaunt it?  Do you think Mildred attended university?

5. Barbara Pym's forte is said to be  comedy.  Would you say the same is true of Jane Austen?  Will you share some examples from Excellent Women?

6. Will you note and share some of the cosy details  characteristic of Pym's novels, especially the kitchen and cookery details?

7. Mildred seems to spend a lot of time in church.  Do you think it is because she grew up as a vicar's daughter or do you think religion was more important in the 50's than it  is now?

8.Finally, do  you see Mildred becoming one of the "Excellent Women"  of St. Mary's parish?

~~~

Related Links:
Barbara Pym Biography; Barbara Pym Society;

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Pedln (for Quartet in August )

I suppose that is true, and I certainly wouldn't like to guarantee my mother's memory.  On the other hand, if Mildred is 31 in the early 1950s, presumably she was about 24 when the war ended, so there would have been possibilities during and just after the war.  I think she's the kind of person who would be a bit shy and would also have been brought up in a staid vicarage home - my own mother came from a much more rowdy household and had older sisters who could take her out and about with them.  My grandmother would have been too busy to check up on them much, and would have wanted them out of the very small house because one of her many jobs was "taking washing in", which in those days would have required a great deal more space than it does now.  I think of Mildred's family home as being much more akin to the Brontes' vicarage, where all that was heard was the sound of the ticking grandfather clock (at least, that's what it was like in the TV series of the Brontes' lives shown when I was a child!)

Mildred has been brought up in a "genteel" way - Pym often refers to "gentlewomen" - so would not have been accustomed to going out to dances, etc.  She would not have been smart enough to go to society events (as, for instance, in A Dance to the Music of Time) but not working class enough (or at all) to go to the more commonplace events.  Hers would have been - as it still is in EW - a world of church events, jumble sales and coffee mornings, with the only available men being dull curates (a recurring theme in BP's earlier novels).

Rosemary

[Babi]

 I think JOANP'S "lower expectations" is very accurate, as well as
ROSEMARY'S conclusion that Mildred wasn't "sufficiently assertive".
Mildred certainly wasn't raised to be assertive; she was raised to be
courteous and helpful. She too often uses phrases such as "a person
like me". She has type-cast herself.

[salan]

PatH, I had to smile when you made the comment about eating baked beans.  I, myself, have been having "cups of tea" lately.  It seems like reading about these things makes me want to partake!  Ovaltine--I had forgotten about that.  My grandmother used to fix Ovaltine and would give me a cup when I was visiting.  Don't think I've had any since--maybe I'll buy some and give it a try.

I finished the book, but will wait to comment til next week.
Sally

[BarbStAubrey]

Regardless many men or not the story shows within her circle of contacts she had several men of interest - and maybe a few more among the 'Boys' who played darts but more, she was 31 and in the 1950s a women 31 years old was not what a women today is like at age 31 -

They were more settled, they dressed as mature women, there was not a menu of jobs for women and those who had jobs were relegated to secretarial, department store sales, not yet even teller's in a bank, teachers, nurses and airline stewardesses. And so, women living on their own were counting pennies.

A women alone was limited in after hours activities - there were still separate entries to many bars  and restaurants with bars in the US - I do not know about the UK -  but except for a movie, museum, library, cafeteria there were not too many places for a women to spend her after-hours except at church centered activities and at home. You do not meet scintillating men at home or in any of the public places approved for 'nice' women much less 'excellent women'.

My thought is Mildred became who she is because of her childhood - her mother died while she was still in school - she has no one during those teen years to help her build her self-confidence - to help her sort out who she was – help her come to terms with her pain. There was no family member mentioned or even a teacher who acted as a mother figure that she could talk to if she was working through her mother's death – an adult who was there for her to help her with her guilt over feeling anger, which we know is part of grief and for any guilt she may have over something she may have thought contributed to her mother's death - she had a friend and they were both fat -  they were not among the accepted group of girls, a way of safely isolating when you feel you are different.  

The story has Mildred taking care of her father - He may have expected his life to go on so he did not have to deal with the pain of loss – after all he had the important work of a church leader and his daughter was going to make him feel better rather than he, as her father, the adult, taking it upon himself to make her feel better. She finds fault with men and yet, feels she needs to take care of them - sounds like she is still working on what she needed and didn't get from her father.

She did not have a mother who guided her or at least helped her make simple choices so that at age 31 choosing a lipstick and sticking with her choice without knowing how to judge if it was a good color for her is something a teenage girl goes through.  

Teen years are difficult - you do not want to be singled out as different and Mildred was different - easy for the girls to say Ahhh and pat her on her head - I do not think she consciously made the choice but she knew she did not want to be the class pet project and she was different so she found one friend and they isolated themselves with schooltime giggles and eating.

Mildred had no one around to teach her parenting skills. I think most women know with marriage most often there are children - this could be something Mildred feared knowing she did not have a clue how to care for a child but then that is me injecting into the story another element that is not mentioned - but what is mentioned by its absence is there are no children in this story - none of the adults care of children.

I see Mildred as someone emotionally frozen in time and is thawing out again without any more guidance than she had when she was a teen. I think her attachment to Dora is greater than that of a friend. She was there when she was isolated from family after her mother died. There is no talk of a Grandmother or Aunt taking her by the hand and helping her through what we know had to be anger, a feeling if she can trust life or others to be there. Some place in her head or heart she must have asked if those who she lets down her guard and loves would be leaving her and dying therefore, she would go through feeling alone and isolated all over again.

It is safer to be alone and not even have a room-mate. A visiting guest is on Mildred's terms by not being there disrupting her carefully laid out life for too long a time - by carefully laying out her life she can control how she feels and avoid unresolved issues after the death of her mother and father.

I feel this has to matter or why would Barbara Pym bring the parents and their deaths into the story - others in life may have been able to get beyond a similar life experience and yes, many women did take care of a widowed father without becoming a spinster just like some folks live through hurricanes, floods, wars and other disasters while some or injured and some do not make it. Mildred appears to me to be one of the walking wounded.

[JoanK]

If she is wounded. Are we buying into the idea that her life is less worthwhile than that of those who marry and have children?

[BarbStAubrey]

She thinks so - what we do I think is see her for what she is - she makes a comment that she expected Helena to go home to her mother when she was facing the aftermath of the quarrel between herself and her husband - who would Mildred have to run home to - she had no safety valve.

She made choices that she acts out in ways most of us reading this story wish she used more assertive behavior - her head chatter and behavior may be part of the times but we all knew girls who were the minister's daughter or sons who were less than what the parish thought was proper -   so why did Mildred stay so 'virtuous' and why was she putting herself down - we are thinking she was worthwhile but Mildred struggles with the idea she is worthwhile.

[JudeS]

Barb:
Good Psych profile of Mildred and her "type".  But the type is made of individuals  and in some ways M. is atypical.  Possibly because of her intelligence.  She seems to personify "Hides her light under a barrel".

 What I concluded after finishing the book is the following....
Mildred  is virtuous almost to a fault when she meets a batch of unvirtuous folk-i.e.Normal people who don't hide their quirks. Her life becomes livened up and made more interesting by them although she is in somewhat in a quandry at first on
how to "eat them"i.e.deal with them. She muddles through very well and all like to have her around.  Sort of a bland sauce for their fiery or over emotional personalities.
She learns much from Helena, Rocky, Allegra and Everard and the quality of her life improves in that she seems to understand  a bit more of the world and who lives in it.She begins to peak out of her cocoon and becomes a tad more mature which proves she has the ability to change and grow  if rather slowly.
It seemed to me that she could have a marriage with Everard at the snap of her fingers if she only knew how to snap.  The underlying emotion she gives off is fear of change.  Stay with the familiar.  It lets you remain the same.  No need to stretch and grow.Her choice not ours.

[bellemere]

Back home and rather tired after a long day in Boston capped by a visit to the Barbara Pym
society Tea at the Church of the Advent at the foot of Beacon Hill.  A dozen or so excellent women and acoupe of excellent gentlement, all vey cordial and friendly.  I had managed to drop off my suitable cake (a bundt, lightly glazed) earlier.  I spoke with several of the members , all from
Boston or its suburbs.  I asked them if they remembered Mildred and how they thought she viewed her life.  Everyone had read the book and some cited it as their favorite.  They mentioned the spring conference at Harvard and hoped some of us would be able to make it. They mentioned that therer are severel B and B's around Harvard that area a good alternative to e xpensive hotels.
Anyway, I am so glad I was able to go.  A long day, but very rewarding.  And the refreshments werd delicious.

[rosemarykaye]

Bellemere - I am so glad you enjoyed it.  I am still hoping I may get to the spring conference. 

EW is definitely my favourite Pym novel, and it really does seem to improve each time you re-read it.  The BP group reads a different novel each month, and I'm always glad to see EW coming round - this month is The Sweet Dove Died, whose heroine is far less interesting.

Best wishes,

Rosemary

[Gumtree]

I read some of the novel last night - first impressions are that Mildred is very self effacing, helpful to others but with perhaps limited aspirations for herself. She is not really hard up for cash - she has a small income (presumably from her father) and a morning job and does not belabour any lack of funds. There is no heart searching regarding spending money on a new hat which suggests that she has some, if limited, disposable income. I think Mildred is at something of a crossroads in her life and beginning to question where her future lies. The catalyst for this has been Dora leaving to live elsewhere and the subsequent change that brought about in Mildred's comfort zone.

It appears that some rationing of goods was still in place at the time the story is set - Some goods were rationed in Britain until 1954 when the rationing of meat was lifted which perhaps explains the 'very small chop' Mildred has on one occasion. Sugar was rationed until 1953 which is probably why Mildred is hesitant of using Mrs Gray's jam which the curate had given her -

JoanP asks whether Mildred has been to university - I think not -but she is well read in poetry- there is one recollection of Dora, William and Mildred being at Oxford but I read that as Dora and Mildred visiting William while he was there...

I have avoided reading anything about Barbara Pym and her life as I wanted to let the novel stand alone without Pym's life taking over - I quite see how some people would compare Pym's writing with that of Jane Austen but I regard it as a superficial likeness. Pym lacks the brilliance of JA's biting satirical humour, her wit and sharp insight into human behaviour. Pym is much more gentle in her approach.

[JoanP]

Good morning, Gum!
We are settled into a nice beach hotel in Florida - on the Gulf of Mexico.  Though cooler than usual - only in the 6o's - should be in the 80's at this time of year, I feel a kinship with you, enjoying the summer weather again for at least a few days.

So happy that you are catching up with us.  There's something to be said for reading Excellent Women without knowing how closely  Pym is writing her own story.  Mildred is indeed at a crossroads.  She wants to be married, but do you think anyone will ever fill all of her criteria?  She has quite a few interested men in her life - who value her as a "sensible"  woman.  That doesn't seem to be enough for our Mildred.  Would it be enough for you?  I think Everard Bone would be a match in many ways, but Mildred  asks, with good reason, in my opinion, "is any man worth proofing, editing, peeling potatoes, and washing up for?"  And answers her own question  - "Probably not."

Gum, you're right - no university for Mildred, I see that now - she comments - "my lack of education makes it difficult to concentrate on anything more staightforward than a sermon..."  But she does know her poetry, quotes from literature - Dante - in Italian - and French and so much more.  

And you don't find  biting satire, as you say, but delicate satire nevertheless.  No Captain Wentworth - no romantic hero  on the horizon...
Bellemere, need to hear more - and there is so much more to talk about from all of yesterday's  posts. I think we'll be understand Mildred - and Barbara Pym by the time we move on to Quartet in Autumn.

Rosemary - do you remember the name of Pym's novel in whcih Mildred appears again?
I plan to return  later this morning, with more questions for you on the second half of this book.  (Does anyone know what a bowl of "greengages" might be?)

[bellemere]

greengages: plums, probably in a syrupy compote?

[Gumtree]

I rather thought Mildred would serve the greengages fresh -wasn't she serving them with camembert? they are fairly sweet - and they're often used for making jam - the fruit 'sets' readily.

[rosemarykaye]

Greengages are like plums but exist in their own right.  Nigel  Slater, one of our better TV cooks, raves about them.  In my childhood  many people had greengage trees, but you don't see them much now.

In his lovely book, The Kitchen Diaries, Nigel says on 13th September:

"The greengages seem to be going on forever this year.  They arrive with green-gold skins and honey coloured flesh, only to turn almost jelly-like as they ripen.  They make one of the juiciest crumbles of all."  - there then follows a recipe for "An Almond and Greengage Crumble".

I believe you can also make them into jam.

I think in EW they would just be in a bowl on the table, not in syrup, though I don't know for sure.

Rosemary

[pedln]

The plums in this recipe are probably not greengages; it’s the Purple Plum Torte from the new Essential New York Times Recipe book (150 years of recipes and cooking.)  But it’s said to be a never-fail, and was the most recommended recipe for the book.

Purple Plum Torte

I’m finding EW more enjoyable on second reading.  I’ve never been an Austen fan, so was a little prepared NOT to like it.  But that hasn’t been the case.  I like the ‘gentle chuckles” that one encounters and am changing my mind about what I previously thought was low self-esteem.

Has anyone said what a “distressed gentlewomen” is?

Bellemere, so glad you enjoyed your get-together with the other Pym ladies yesterday.

[Gumtree]

Distressed gentlewomen - well, I can't say for sure but my understanding is that they were well born and educated (usually single) women who were in severely reduced financial straits and without any family support. Many found work as governesses and companions to rich women but when they were no longer required they were generally cast off to fend for themselves once more. Florence Nightingale was once involved with an institution which cared for distressed gentlewomen who were ill - often mentally ill - and Florence N records that many had in fact been governesses and were now classed as lunatics.

In the 19th century large numbers of distressed gentlewomen emigrated from Britain to find work as seamstresses, governesses and the like somewhere in the colonies.

I had no idea that the term was still being used as late as post WWII - as indicated by Pym.

[rosemarykaye]

Yes - as late as the 1970s my mother was still buying a magazine called The Lady (it still exists, but has been jazzed up these days) and it always carried an advertisement for The Distressed Gentlewomen's Aid Society.

I think that Barbie in The Jewel In The Crown would probably have fallen into this category, perhaps also Miss Crane.  Angela Thirkell's novel - I think it is called The Bransoms - also features a paid companion who is clearly in a similar situation, although it being Angela Thirkell, there is a happy ending.

Rosemary

[Gumtree]

Yes, good examples Rosemary - the impovershed gentlewoman occurs  often in literature. Those which came to my mind were the unnamed narrator, later the second Mrs de Winter in Rebecca who, when we first meet her, is working as a paid companion to a wealthy American woman and of course, there are Miss Bates and her mother in Emma whose incomes diminish each year.

One thinks too, of real life instances - the Brontes are perhaps an obvious example...

[fairanna]

I have finished it and was very satisfied at the ending...ALthough she seemed quiet and rather demure I find her typical of a women who hasnt decided what she wants to be in life....but  getting involved with those who were really different than she helped to change her thinking..from the beginning she made me chuckle with her manners and thoughts As I mentioned ..in some ways she reminded me of myself when I was young ----one girl among  five brothers  I frankly thought boys were rather boring and there were 6 of us girls who more or less formed "a group" there are three of us still alive, still friends....but we all married being bridemaids for each other and  had a happy marriages .....I am now ready to see what else Pym has written .......anna

[JoanP]

What exactly do you think Mildred does for the distressed gentlewomen?  I imagine them as elderly, do you?  Mildred works for the "Censorship" - that sounds odd too, doesn't it?

Gum - these women are well-bred - and educated, you say?  I'm wondering exactly what that means.  Are they more educated than Mildred  who seems to know so much - Italian, French, poetry -Dante (in Italian no less?)    She says "my lack of education makes it difficult to concentrate on anything more staightforward than a sermon..."  

Barbara Pym went to Oxford, studied English Literature.  Doesn't it seem that she has imparted her education to Mildred?
I can't see that the distressed gentlewomen have anything on Mildred when it comes to education.

I'll never hear the end of it if I spend the better part of this beautiful day up in the room while he is at the beach.  I'd better join him - but will confess I'd rather spend it here with you - and Barbara Pym.

Thanks for the information on the greengages - and the yummy recipe, Pedln.  I think I'm going to try it when I get home.  Will any old plums do, I wonder?

[JoanK]

"It seemed to me that she could have a marriage with Everard at the snap of her fingers if she only knew how to snap."

I love that expression. She could have and perhaps thinks she wants it, but would she? We have seen how he, along with almost everyone else, uses her -- seeking her out only when he wants something, and then paying her the minimem of attention. To me, she's better off where she is.

The only man who doesn't seem to use her is Julian, perhaps because he has his sister to use, instead. Really, the view of men in this book is enough to put you off them forever.

[bellemere]

At the Pym society tea, I did manage to ask a few members one of the questions we discussed: how does Mildred regard her own liife.  the answers largely echoed ours: that she carefully examines her life in the light of new experiences , a good practice, but fines now compelling reason to alter it.  One member , Tom, gave me a tip: when reading successive works by Pym, watch for cameo appearances by characters in earlier works.  He mentioned Miss Clovis (hair like a dog) an anthropoligy colleague of Everards whom is seen by Mildred as a sort of rival because of her knowledge.  Tom said she pops up again, and even her eventual funeral is noted in a subsequent book.
My cake, while not black walnut was nicely sliced and displayed on a silver platter.  The Church of theAdvent has a lot of silver.  They also have a wonderul sexton named Moses, who chased away a vagran who was bothering my daughter while she was waiting for me.
I am really going to try to attened the confence in the spring, and I will keep you informed about anything in the newsletter. Oh, the confence book is "No Fond Return of Love"  .

[rosemarykaye]

Bellemere -I agree - the little snippets that pop up in later books are real treats, and in one of them we do learn what happened to Mildred.

JoanK - although most of the men in this novel are awful, as I have probably already said, my opinion of Everard has improved over the years.  I think he is terrified of Helena and her attentions, and a bit gauche in his approaches to Mildred, but he has a wonderful dry sense of humour, and his mother is priceles - the sort of eccentric that can only exist in the English upper classes, because if someone of "lower birth" (as Mildred would no doubt say) behaved like her they would be certified.  I don't think Everard means to use Mildred - it is Rocky who does that, ditto Helena - they are both terribly selfish, self-centered people, relying on charm (him) and beauty (him and her) to get away with not having to consider other people's feelings.

Anna - I am so glad you enjoyed EW.  You might want now to try A Glass of Blessings, Some Tame Gazelle, Jane and Prudence or No Fond Return of Love, they are all good, and the first two in particular are very funny.

Rosemary

[JoanP]

Anna, I find myself feeling sorry for Mildred when she concludes that she probably enjoyed other peoples' lives more than her own.  I think that's how she will live her life because she lives in a sort of dreamworld in which a man like Rocky will come  into her life one of these days and make her feel good about herself.  She's looking for romance and men, especially as they grow older and more mature are beyond that - looking for a sensible woman to run their households.

None of the men are bad men, they just aren't the romantics that Mildred is looking for.  In the second half of the book we get more of the story of the romance with Bernard Hatherly when Mildred was 19.  I'm not even sure this was a big romance - but more of a crush.  What did you think?  Helena says everyone has had someone in her life she has had to forget.  Do you agree with her?  Do you think Mildred did?
Rosemary, can you tell us the title of the novel in which Mildred makes a cameo appearance.  I'd love to meet up with her again to see how she is doing...

I feel this is Barbara Pym's story.  I know, I've said that before - but  there is mounting evidence of this.

  Bellemere, I'll bet anything the Tom you met was Tom Sopko, the North American Coordinator of the Pym Society who posted about us in the Society facebook page and brought Rosemary to our site.  We owe that man!  Everyone, remember that on Thursday we are planning to begin Quartet in Autumn.  Have you been able to locate a copy?  This one was written nearly 30 years later and is set in the 70's.  It was shortlisted in 1980 for the Booker prize in the UK- and brought attention to Pym's earlier works, including Excellent Women.  By now the unmarried woman is in her 60's, about to retire from her place of employment.  The book jacket says:
"a softly compelling story of human dignity in the midst of hopelessness."

It does have its light moments, honest!  But the hopelessness the publisher writes about does come from lost hopes and dreams, which we still harbor for Mildred of  Excellent Women.

[marcie]

I've just finished EXCELLENT WOMEN and have read all of your interesting posts in this discussion. What good questions and ideas you are sharing. I am finding some provocative perspectives here.

I've been thinking about the book and Mildred's perspective. She seems to me, on the whole, content with her life and open to letting other people have an affect on her. She also has a unique affect on quite a few other people. She is quite in demand of the attentions of a number of people, especially when they need help. Mildred is self-deprecating but usually in a humorous way. She also sees the foibles of other people. Like many of you, I found myself laughing out loud in some places.

Mildred seems able to be very honest, I think, in her observations, even when that is somewhat painful to her. I am not getting a hopeless feeling about the book. I think we have to judge the book by Mildred's expectations and feelings.

[salan]

Pedlin--I love that--"Gentle chuckles".  That's exactly what this book provided for me.  Joan K, I agree with you about the men in this book.  I suspect that they were the "product of their times".  Women were brought up to take care of men i.e., wait on them, and men just expected women to take care of the mundane tasks so that they could get on with more important things!  

I must confess that I got aggravated with Mildred for letting others take advantage of her.  One instance was when she let the phone ring, all the while wondering whose voice was on the other end and what they would be asking her to do.

She mentions feeling "smug and dull".  Does she mean dull as in boring, or as in not very bright??  Can one feel both smug and dull at the same time?  Smug implies self satisfied.
Sally

[Babi]

I can't say for certain about countries elsewhere, but there were  women teachers and stewardesses in the '50s here in the States. You make a good point about the lack of a mother's guidance as Mildred grew up.

  I re-read a blurb on the cover of my pb copy by a David Cecil, who considers the book a fine
example of 'high comedy'.  I tried reading the book with that idea in mind, and find it doesn't
work for me.  Does Mr. Cecil find it funny that a single woman struggles with defining her life,
wondering whether she has made the right choice or is missing out on something more meaningful?  A woman with a poor self-image who is emerging, cautiously, from her shell?
I do wonder at the man's idea of comedy.

Can one feel both smug and dull at the same time?  Smug implies self-satisfied.

Oh, I think so, SALLY.  I generally find smug people to be more irritating than dull, but the 'dull'
is also there.  Typically, they're not at all open-minded.

[salan]

Babi, I agree that a person can be smug & dull; but can a person feel both smug & dull.  I think smug people don't feel that they are dull.  Do you?

[bellemere]

Okay, my unfeminist youth: I was both a teacher and a "stewardess" aka flight attendant in the 50's.  I taught in a country school and my first summer, worked for the airlines after of course promising them that I would not leave at the end of the summer. Which I did. My husband likes to tell people I served coffee to Wilbur and Orville.
Almost all of my graduating class of English majors went into teaching.  One professor, a nun was urging women to go to law school; she saw it as a great opportunity for women. The science majors did better in terms of jobs but a lot of thembecame teachers too.  And one English major deviated from the norm to join a new company called IBM as a programmer.
As far as I know, none of them ended up "distressed". Wasn't Mildred sort of a social worker, before that bacame a profession?

[PatH]

I found the book's ending very satisfactory.  Mildred has occasional fluttering romantic feelings, and she thinks about getting married, mostly because it's expected, but she's basically a solitary person.  She was relieved to have Dora out of her flat, and horrified at the thought of Winifred moving in with her.  She does want plenty of human contact, and enjoys being part of other people's lives, even though she is being used (she is the kind of person who always gets stuck with the washing up) but after a while she's pleased to kick the whole boiling out and be comfortably alone.  She certainly doesn't need to marry just to be married, and she isn't fond enough of any of the men to marry for affection.

Contact with the Napiers and Bone has pulled her out of her shell a bit.  Now she has new downstairs neighbors who seem friendly and cosmopolitan, and she'll have a further interest dealing with Everard's proofreading and index.  I see her as slowly expanding, but still leading much the same life.  She and Everard might eventually become attracted and marry, but I'm guessing not.

[Gumtree]

Babi a David Cecil - During mid-20th century Lord David Cecil was Prof of Eng Lit at Oxford. He held the post for 20 or 30 years. He was highly regarded as a critic and wrote about just about everyone particularly writers like Austen and Bronte and the later Victorian like Hardy and co.  I have some of his writings and have been struck by his insight and of course his eloquence.
He was also one of the Tolkien/C.S Lewis group known as the Inklings who used to meet at the pub and read and discuss their writing and no doubt other things as well...

 

Does Mr. Cecil find it funny that a single woman struggles with defining her life,
wondering whether she has made the right choice or is missing out on something more meaningful?  A woman with a poor self-image who is emerging, cautiously, from her shell?
I do wonder at the man's idea of comedy.

I haven't seen the blurb you mention but I think perhaps Cecil is referring more to Pym's style of writing about our single woman and her struggles rather than the woman herself and the problems she faces. The comedy lies in the writing and not in the situation in which Mildred finds herself.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh dear the way I wrote that sentence it appears that because I had a job that was not available the next three jobs  could be interpreted as not available - Yes, being a teacher, nurse and airline stewardess were very much the jobs available to women in the 50s - my daughter-in-law's mother was an airline stewardess, my two sisters were teachers, still are although, both are now Deans of their respected departments - and my best friend was a nurse. My other best friend in High School was daring and she became a Lady Marine, forget what they were called.

At the time marrying was the thing and I married a year out of High School. When I think back now we were so mature as compared to young folks today. Mildred seems less mature then what I am remembering but then each of our circumstances probably influenced our maturity.  

I have been clearing out bookshelves this weekend and surprised to find I had a paperback I never read written by Barbara Pym, entitled - 'Jane and Prudence' - Has anyone read it?

And yes, I even remember all the teasing jokes about how helpless a man was with children and inside the house - they were supposed to take care of the house as a structure, maybe the garden, definitely the lawn and keep the vehicles repaired and filled with gas. Women drivers were still the butt of male jokes and as we joked how they couldn't manage the kitchen they teased we could not keep gas in the car or park the car properly.

I remember during the 50s making a good impression included having the boss over for dinner and being dressed with gloves when going to town. I still have a couple of pair of gloves in a glove box on top of my closet - those little pearl buttons on the inside of the wrist. And stockings, not panty hose but stockings - all the little wash-up items that Mildred sees to in the evening.

Thanks folks, this has been a fun discussion - I am off for a couple of weeks...

[rosemarykaye]

Jane and Prudence is a great read - it's about two friends who met at Oxford; one marries a vicar and lives her life as not very successful vicar's wife in the country, the other does not marry but has plenty of lovers, and lives a very smart life in London.  They continue to see each other and the inter-twining of their lives is really what the book is about, though there are lots of other characters.

Rosemary

[rosemarykaye]

JoanP - "Less Than Angels" (not IMO BP's finest work, but readable) has at least two passing references to Mildred - in my copy they are on pages 61 and 237.  I think she is probably mentioned in another novel too, but so far I've been unable to remember which  - it'll come back to me!

Rosemary

[PatH]

Rosemarykaye, thank you both for telling us that we will get news of Mildred and for keeping mum about what happens to her.  I very much want to know, but I want to find out in my own sweet time, by reading the books (which I'm sure I'll do) and not by being told.

[PatH]

There are so many delightful little things to comment on, it's hard to know where to start, but it has to be my favorite cameo part, Everard's mother.  What a hoot!  She reminds me a lot of someone I used to know, though my acquaintance was a little less extreme.  But it will be a while before I'll eat chicken without thinking "Eat your enemies!"

[JoanP]

Look!  Marcie has caught up with us today!  Welcome!  It is so good to have you here - with your perspective on Mildred.  She does appear to be generous with her time, she feels responsible for people,  feels she must say "yes"  to everyone who comes to her for help.  Admirable yes, but don't you sense another side of her  that wishes to be left alone, left out of the problems of those around her?  What is it about her that everyone turns to her for help?
On the one hand she really is interested in other people.     She can't help but notice them and who doesn't respond to that?  

Bellemere, she makes a great social worker, sympathetic to the pllight of her distressed gentlewomen - though I'm not sure what it is that she does. On the other hand, she seems to resent the intrusions - craving her own time for herself.  She' s  really an introvert, don't you think?  

[JoanP]

And then there's Mildred's attitude concerning romance and men... she's not going to consider Julian if he does propose - because she wasn't his first choice!  She's 30 years old!  She wants to be married, but is narrowing the field of possibility considerably, isn't she? 
It's understood she wants to marry for love...but is she being realistic?  I'm not sure.  I'm not sure that she will ever find someone romantic enough, someone who will put her first and find her wonderful.  And she will not settle for less. 

Rosemary, thank you for the book title - and as PatH says - for not divulging Midred's future.  Pat, Everard brought Mildred to meet his mother - that was quite revealing, I thought.  Mildred doesn't seem to see that as meaningful - but if a bachelor type brought me home to meet his mother, I'd think he was somewhat serious.  His mother was something, wasn't she?

Bellemere, wouldn't it be fun to get Tom Sopko to join us here?  He is a male member of the Pym Society - and probably has views on Pym's men, don't you think?  I'm away from my computer right now...but when I get home, I bet I can find his email address.  Or perhaps you have a way to let him know we are looking for him, Rosemary?

We've moved from the beach to this river-side hotel where Bruce's softball team is staying.  Will have more time to spend here in the morning with all of you   I have my own teacher/stewardess story to share...

[Babi]

 I think that is a key point, PATH, ..that Mildred really isn't fond enough of
any of the men she knows to marry them. Comparing herself with the industrious
Martha tells me is intelligently self-aware, so she made her choices there.
I'll be hanged, tho', if I would scrub up the Napiers mess while dear Rocky
lazed in my tidy rooms and drank my tea and brandy!
 
   Your explanation of David Cecil's comment intrigues me, GUM, but I'm not
sure I understand how the

"comedy lies in the writing and not in the situation".

Could you illustrate that for me?

[JoanP]

One thing that I find curiously missing here - the ticking of the "biological clock."  Wasn't that always the consideration back then as a young woman approached her 30's?  Never a mention about children - wanting to have them.  DId you think that odd?  Is it the same in other books by Barbara Pym, Rosemary?  I wonder if this reflects Pym's lack of interest in having a family?  Or maybe this is the unspeakable part of the disappointment that comes with the realization that marriage will not be in the future -
There's a lot here that is not "funny" I agree,  Babi
 I looked up a definition of "high comedy"  and sense that it is not so much funny or raucous - do you think this is what  Lord David Cecil intended when he used the term?

Noun 1. high comedy - a sophisticated comedy; often satirizing genteel societycomedy - light and humorous drama with a happy ending

{{{Barbara}}} - our thoughts are with you today - we hope you will be back in no time!