Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online

[JoanP]

TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online

Excellent Women

Quartet in Autumn

 

British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with  humor, a very dry humor.  Both Pym and Austen were  concerned with the marriage of their heroines,  before they become "spinsters." (Note that  Austen and Pym never married.)   It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage.  In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel.  Will this be the case with Pym?

The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952,  considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry  without the romance or risk remaining a spinster.   The woman is 31 years old!  
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers,  as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources.   Pym  is fascinated  by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
 

Discussion Schedule ~ Quartet in Autumn Nov. 11 - 15     Chapters 1-11 Nov. 16 - 20   Chapter 12 (The Retirement) - Final Chapter Nov. 21 - 30     Final Thoughts & Happy Thanksgiving to all

Some Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration
Nov. 11-15  Chapters 1 - 11  

1. Here we have four very different characters, each important to the development of the story.  Does any one of the four stand out more than the others?  Which one made the most impression on you?
2. How does this office foursome  view one another?  
3. This book is set in the 1970's and written almost 20 years after Excellent Women.  Does anything initially make you aware of that?
4. Do you find this a different type of book compared to Excellent Women?  Do the two have similar qualities?
How would you compare Midred Lathbury with Letty Crowe?
5.  Have you noted any of the references to "autumn" in these chapters?  What is the feeling  these references convey?

Additional Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration - The Retirement
Nov. 16-20  Chapters 12 - Final Chapter  

1.  Do you agree most retirement parties are  depressing? "Why does one feel sorry for men who retire, not women," Pym asks.  What will they DO after retirement?  Have  Letty or Marcia given any thought to this question?  Are they looking forward to it?
2. Who is the protagonist here?  Is there one?
3. Marcia has certainly declined since retirement.  But what about the others?  Do you notice any changes in them, for better or for worse?
4. Norman is frequently referred to as an "odd little man" by those he meets for the first time.  Why do you suppose that iis?  Why do you think he went to Marcia's house, but did not make himself known?
5. Do you think  the two men exhibit more concern for Marcia and Letty than the women do for them?   Why would Marcia leave her house to Norman?  Will he keep it?
6. Did you ever anticipate Marcia's demise?  What effect did her cremation service  have on the other three?  On you?
7. What effect did Marjorie's character have on the story?
8. If you had to name the most uplifting scene in the book, what would it be?  The most humorous?

Additional Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration - The Retirement

Nov. 21 - 30   Final Comments - Happy Thanksgiving!  

1. Why do you think Barbara Pym chose "Quartet in Autumn"  as the title for this book?  Do you feel the four were activing "in concert"  with one another?

2. What do you see as Pym's intention in writing this novel?  Do you see a rather bleak portrayal of four individuals or rather the satire of a society that limits their retirement prospects?  Does the author exhibit  sympathy towards her characters?

3.  Do you think the differences in  tone between Excellent Women and Quartet in August are due to the ages of the unmarried women in each book or the periods in which they live?

4. Would you be interested in reading another of Pym's earlier  novels?  If so, which one?

~~~

Related Links:
Barbara Pym Biography; Barbara Pym Society; "Subversion from Behind a Teacup" by Catherine Wallace (a must-read!)
Hazel K. Bell's comprehensive Index of Barbara Pym's writings

***Readers' Guide questions for Excellent Women

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Pedln (for Quartet in Autumn )

[JoanP]

Will be back later this evening, but first, one quick question for you, Jude.  Did you feel this way about Pym's attitude toward her characters in Excellent Women?

[JoanK]

Sheila: " D0es that sound boring?  It isn't.  I am very content."

You have hit the nail on the head! If I described my life, it would sound terribly boring to others, but IU've never been happier. The difference between this book and the others is not so much the lives they are leading, but the way they (and more-- the way the author) FEELS about the lives they are leading. All the ingrediants that Mildred had in her life are available to the four in Quartet, but they do not choose them. That is why the ending (I feel) is upbeat. Norman and Letty, perhaps for the first time, realize that they have choices. That they can influence their world.

Perhaps it is too late for them to make choices that would make their world a happy one. All of the ingrediants mentioned in the post above (except a sister) are available to them. But they are not used to choosing them, as Mildred of EW clearly is.

[JoanK]

TOM: I hadv a feeling that there were a lot of class indicators that we Yanks wouldn't pick up. So I enjoyed the first part of your first reference. I had no idea of the class differences between the two pairs in QA -- Edwin and Letty upper (upper-middle?), and Marcia-Norman lower. Did you Brits pick that up?

If it were an American novel, the same thing could have been done, and we would have responded (perhaps without realizing what we were responding to). The US is very proud of being an open society, but there are all kinds of subtle (or not-so-subtle) reminders of social status. The "top" status (the "old money families") are not as visable as the English peerage, in fact they seem to go to pains to keep themselves unobtrusive. Flamboyant expressions of wealth or style are left to "new money".

Remember, the peers are just families who made their money in Henry VIII time and were rewarded with a peerage. But over time, they have aquired a life style and sense of entitlement to match their position. I imagine there are no peerages left to hand out, in the US, it is still possible to become "old money" in only a few generations.

[PatH]

 
"He presumed that he and Edwin would be sharing the cost of the meal between them, Letty being a woman, and Norman something a little less than the kind of man one might expect to treat one to lunch". 

Presumably it's the class difference that makes Father G. not expect Norman to treat, so that's one more bit of gentle humor.

I enjoy these references when I catch them, and I'm sure glad we have rosemarykaye and Tom to straighten us out.  Even though I read a lot of British books, it's hard for me to sort out.  A long time ago Nancy Mitford wrote an article supposedly demystifying some class indicators of pronunciation, word choice, and behavior.  When she got to a word that told you something depending on whether it rhymed with "pass" or "gas", I knew I was in trouble, because here, "pass" and "gas" rhyme.

[pedln]

Tom, thanks so much for your updates to information about social class. I’ve always thought that to be interesting, but have never really understood it.  I look forward to reading those articles.

Sally, I agree with you.  Depressing it is and although I’ve been reading sections, and garnering more insights than previously, I certainly don’t want to read it again.  Though I don’t quite agree with Jude. She may or may not have had empathy for her characters.  She wrote what she observed, about people she knew.

What would YOU have done?  Is there anyone in your acquaintance who is alone, who would appreciate recognition -  a kind word?  What do you think of this idea as a way of taking the edge off the glum feelings we seem to be sharing –

JoanP,  a thoughtful gift is almost always appreciated, but interference is another matter. I think often of my good friend DorothyN  who died just about five years ago. Never married, no family in town, but many friends who cared about her. In her 90’s, she got into trouble with her driving – too fast, no insurance , etc.  Enough trouble to bring her to the attention of the courts. They said she needed a guardian, and at one point it was going to be a local stranger. Fortunately a niece who lived about 5 hours away was appointed. (Another friend and I went to that meeting and did our best to see that that was the outcome.) Long story short – she fell, broke her hip, had to leave her home and recoup in the nursing home. Hated it, wanted to go home. Got pneumonia, went to hospital, said she wasn’t going back to the nursing home. She didn’t. She died.

My long-winded point here is that this is a woman who wanted to live in her home, no matter what. People would say, “she shouldn’t live there by herself. What if she burns the house down.”  My answer – “So? She knows she’s old, forgetful, and willing to take the consequences. Leave her be.”  Of course, the hip ended that.

When she got to a word that told you something depending on whether it rhymed with "pass" or "gas", I knew I was in trouble, because here, "pass" and "gas" rhyme.


Good grief PatH, now you’ve got me wondering which was “ahs” and which was “ass.”


Sorry to be so rambling.  Driving 900 miles in two days will do that to you.

[pedln]

I give up.  Rosemary, I'm having the same bouncy problems you were having.,  I wonder if it's a Vista problem as I'm now on my laptop.

PatH, I tried to quote you, but whenever I tried, the whoe post turned blue.

[JoanP]

Good grief! Rosemary, Pedln -  That's the same problem the compatibility button  is supposed to fix. I  can't understand why it isn't working.  Will you BOTH please try  it again and let me know what happens?  

Look up at the top line on your screen - the browser line.  Now look all the way over to the right - the first button.  It looks like  a torn piece of paper.  That's the compatibility button..  Click it.  

But don't click it in the middle of a post or you'll lose our work.  Now try to post something...

Let me know if this works - or not?  You shouldn't have to put up with that~

We're trying to beat the leaf truck - raking like mad.  I'll be back this afternoon...

[nlhome]

It's the right of self determination. As long as we are "competent" we can make our own decisions, even if they're not wise. So many times, the choice to stay in ones' own homes inconveniences others, or worries them - it's hard to know when we are interfering and when we are helping sometimes.

[JudeS]

Joan P
You asked  did I feel that the author didn't like her characters in EW.
No I didn't feel that way.  But almost twenty years had passed in the author's life.  When she wrote QIA she was ill with cancer and had been quite depressed for many years. 
Wether you like it or not this is not the same person.  Actually the author in QIA has less hope for her characters.She is at the end of her life and some bitterness must seep in, if not spleen. She is living with her sister.  Nowhere have I read how they got along or what her sisters personality was like.

The author never married or had children.  Her books are her legacy to the futurre after her demise. Perhaps she is saying
live freely and wildly while you are young because, alas, old age is not much fun.

I don't feel that way but I think she did.

[ursamajor]

I fear there are millions of people like the characters in QIA living in the equivalent of bedsitters and small apartments, not to mention assisted living quarters, all over this country and probably all of Europe.  My good friend despises her very expensive assisted living apartment; the food is awful and she wants her four level house that was sold after she broke her ankle and had to spend several months in a nursing home.  I visit her and listen to her complain, but I can't give her her life back.  She wants her deceased husband and the home she lived in for forty years.

  There isn't any answer but I believe we should make reasonable efforts to help people but leave them in peace if they reject that help.  I know that I would enormously resent anyone trying to arrange my life for me.  Only the old lose their legal rights to direct their own lives, no matter how bizaare their actions may see to others.

  Marcia may not have starved herself consciously, but what on earth did she have to live for?  Asking Letty to share her house might have given her some sort of future, but after the original impulse she shuddered at the thought; after all Letty had interfered in her life by giving her a bottle of milk and the bottle was the wrong kind!  So unsuitable!

[JoanK]

Is there a hint there that if she had listened to that kindly impulse, things would have been better for her? It's hard to see Letty and Marcia being happy together.

Living with other people requires a lot of skill in the art of give and take. People who live alone all their lives don't acquire it (or perhaps prefer NOT to acquire it, as Mildred clearly did).

Of course, living alone requires a lot of skill, too -- in the art of self determination. People like me who have always lived with others don't have those skills.

[BarbStAubrey]

Joan your post prompted thoughts that throughout our lives we experience major changes - even those we looked forward to brought with them challenges and uncertainty till we had developed a handle on things.

We left our parents home - change - many of us married - change - we certainly never experienced childbirth or caring for another till we had our fist baby - some of us changed the town, the state, the part of the country and for some even the part of the world where we set up our home and learned the shopping, cooking, making new friends etc. Those of us who have had jobs there was a change in status, change maybe even in the employment or company we associated therefore, a change in company culture - those who had children faced another change when they left home, some married so another family member to get to know and include – changes when parents die and close friends die - on and on it goes.

And maybe that is it - there are bright spots in our lives - times when we felt at one with the world and we believed we had meaning - with change our meaning is altered - it sounds to me like regardless if we lived 30 years with someone or if we lived 30 years alone - if we worked out of the house for 30 years or raised a family and maybe a garden - when the change came we either lost our companion - or we had to grow another garden in different soil - you get the picture.

Wasn't there a book popular about 25 years ago about the 7 year time frame encapsulating phases of our lives when typically certain happenings are common - the author was something like Sheehy - seems to me the phases stopped at about age 65 -

Well I bet we can all remember the energy and activities we engaged in at the drop of a hat, the ease we had of finding and making new friends when we were 65 as compared to 72 and then another set of changes at 79 and still another at 86.

Few are writing about the adventures of these milestones - we are all lumped together - hmmm almost reminds me of years ago whites couldn't tell the difference between black folks, all Mexican folks nor Asian folks. They are still lumped as minorities - while we now have the erstwhile experience of lumping - regardless of huge differences in interests and needs over a 20 to 25 year time span we are lumped as the elderly, the aged or seniors, retirees.

But more important most of us are not prepared to look at the changes in our lives after age 65 other than as if we were sliding down a coal chute into helpless powerless losses - we want to stay or recapture who we were at another earlier age –

I do not think there is anything published that addresses the many glories of the various changes that happen every 7 years after the age of 65. The wisdom that we may only have acquired because we’ve been there done that - and how about the gut wrenching adventure of buying alone a big ticket item, or learning how to deal successfully with house and vehicle repairs, cooking for one versus two, how to invest - in the past we may have had a partner who shared some of these tasks. If we live on into our 90s, we may have to change again where we live and with whom we live. Can you see Pym’s gang of four in their late 80s or early 90s?

And so, I am thinking how can we look at these expected life changes as we did when we were kids? As kids everything we did was exploring; testing ourselves as well as, the new object or experience; seeking the beautiful; play-acting, putting ourselves as if in place of something or someone. With each grade level we were busy redefining our identity, taking on new rituals of community.

We could look at our ‘things’ today as if toys that we used as kids that improved our sense of mastery. And yes, it was hard to get rid of a toy but with time we sorted through and only kept the toys with the most memory or we decided some kid needed Christmas and we no longer needed that toy.

We could approach the phases of aging like kids before they learn society expects a work ethic rather than a play ethic. And so your post suggests to me - why question how and with whom we lived for 30 years – either we choose to try something new and give it our all or not and then if not, we find an alternative to keep what we cherish while we strike out for yet another 7 year phase in our lives.

This book is opening my mind – it came along at the right time – I have been reading and reading all sorts of books about retirement – From Jimmy Carter to ‘Outrageous Old Women’.

Pym’s characters are gay or sad sacks and thank goodness, they are make believe so I can say sad sack out loud rather than think it for fear of hurting someone – but my word… And certainly, the sad sack characters make it easy for us to dwell on all the sad sacks we have known in our lifetime – However, because of their sad sack approach to the next phases of their life it is helping me distill what I have been struggling with for months.

Regardless how conveniently located my house I really do NOT need a 4 bedroom 2 living room house that some family would love since it is located across from a large, park like campus for both the elementary and middle school. I have also had the dismay of trying 5 different cleaning services in the past 2 years and each has stolen stuff including 6 place settings of good china – the maids that come 2 or more it is easy but the one that came alone I was shocked to find all my nail equipment scissors and files taken – I cannot depend any longer an outside help so I need to get serious about change – the big question – WHERE – I need a garden so we go from there…and I too do not do well nor do I really want to re-learn as you Joan point out 'the art of give and take' in order to successfully live with someone – been alone now since ’87.

Well I have written a tome – but my thoughts are a million a minute – thanks for the space to write them out.

[PatH]

Barb, your post was very thought-provoking for me--the importance of recognizing change and dealing with it courageously.  We are indeed still exploring.

This feeds into JoanK's comment about the ending.  Norman and Letty see that they have the power of choice, and maybe they will even make something of it.

[Tom in Cantab]

Joan P
She is living with her sister.  Nowhere have I read how they got along or what her sisters personality was like.
The author never married or had children.  Her books are her legacy to the future after her demise. Perhaps she is saying
live freely and wildly while you are young because, alas, old age is not much fun.

Barbara and Hilary were by all accounts best friends, and after Barbara's death Hilary worked tirelessly to promote and preserve her sister's literary legacy.  Hilary Pym Walton was more extroverted than her somewhat shy older sister. Barbara's first published novel, Some Tame Gazelle (begun in the 1930s, published in 1950) prophetically portrays two middle-aged spinster sisters based on herself and her sister contentedly living together.  Barbara wrote one more book after QIA, A Few Green Leaves that is more similar to her early works and contains references to many characters from earlier novels, including Miss Clovis's funeral.  Her lifelong friend Robert Liddell wrote:

"This is Barbara’s farewell to her readers, revised not long before her death and published shortly after it.  A gentle, kindly book with less of the melancholy that marked the two novels that preceded it,… [it was] written after Barbara’s rediscovery and in the certainty of publication.  It has, perhaps for this reason, a resumed cheerfulness, although she knew she could not have long to live."

[JoanP]

Jude - points out that this is not the same Pym who brought us Excellent Women - she is at the end of her life in Quartet - depressed and bitter...

Tom, it's  good to know that Pym's farewell to her readers was not Quartet in Autumn - especially since you wrote that many of the Pymites avoid Quartet when it is being discussed by the Society.

I can't say that I understand how she pulled it off though -how did she "resume her early cheerfulness" in A Few Green Leaves    

"A gentle, kindly book with less of the melancholy  a resumed cheerfulness, although she knew she could not have long to live."

.

Barbara...I read your post with interest  - "there are bright spots in our lives - times when we felt at one with the world and we believed we had meaning"  So, do you think the fact that Pym learned her books were being published, read and appreciated provide the "bright spot" necessary to overcome the  mood of Quartet?

[JoanP]

Did you find it ironic that Marcia's last act on this earth was - eating?  Edwin and Father G found her sitting at her kitchen table attempting to drink tea and eat a biscuit.

'Marcia may not have starved herself consciously, but what on earth did she have to live for?' Ursa
'It's hard to know when we are interfering and when we are helping sometimes. " nlhome

 You both sum up our  frustration in a nutshell.  But was Marcia's death Pym's whole story?  Granted it was dismaying and has our full attention. But were all of the characterizations this depressing?  

Can we consider two of the other characters - Mrs. Pope  - and Marjorie and how they were  different from Letty and Marcia...

[marcie]

In response to a couple of earlier posts about social class, I'm going to recommend two outstanding papers from the Pym Society archives, both by Tim Burnett.  The first paper includes a discussion of the names of the characters in QIA, and may be found at http://www.barbara-pym.org/burnett03.html.  If you like this, Tim presented a second paper in 2005 that you can read here http://www.barbara-pym.org/burnett05.html

Finally, I'm going to recommend a paper describing how a professor taught QIA to college students.  This one is on Google Books, and a few pages are missing, but you can read most of it, including the brilliant close reading of the very first paragraph of Quartet.  (In one of Barbara's notebooks now in the Bodleian Library archives, she wrote "Do their hair!!")  This is also an example of Pym's skill as a writer; while the narrative flows smoothly and the dialogue is always natural, there is never a wasted word or comma, and every modifier speaks volumes.  Here's the link: http://books.google.com/books?id=5ZH3BunpEK8C&lpg=PP1&dq=all%20this%20reading&pg=PA194#v=onepage&q&f=false[/url

Tom, I agree that those articles are outstanding. I appreciate the links.

I'm not feeling as "depressed" about the characters as most of you seem to be. I think I'm focusing less on what actually happens and more on the humorous descriptions and inner dialogs that we get to hear. I'm seeing this as a comedy of manners where how things are presented might be more significant than what happens. I might be misreading but I can see a balance between a presentation that shows humor as well as the hard facts of life.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, those links that Tom provided were grand - they prompted me to look at some of the Mapp and Lucia tapes - a TV series from Benton's books popular in the mid 80s - I got the impression that Marjorie would be more like Diva in the Mapp and Lucia stories, bottom rung on the chain of middle class and the quartet would be more like the household help since the Lucia stories take place in the 1920s and early 30s before office workers.  

I also looked up to find out what book did receive the Booker in '77 - Paul Scott for Staying On - another retirement story. This time a Colonel in India who was forced to retire when India became Independent. Read a little - the book is on-line - more exotic with lots more 'sins' of the flesh along with guilt and death and manipulation. Would have to read the entire book to get a flavor for why it was chosen over Quartet in Autumn.

As to if, her success helped Barbara Pym feel better or good about herself - I do not know much about her except for what I have recently read. Sounds like Tom would have a better idea how she viewed her life. From what I read there was a 15-year period just preceding the publication of this book when no publisher would accept her work.

As to if her own life is entwined in the story - I am no longer sure what an author is including - there is the whole philosophy 'the death of the author' that suggests an author writes to make a story work rather than it being an outpouring of his or her life experience.

Earlier Joan, you asked who is the protagonist. – Letty has been mentioned as well as Marcia. They all seem to be so separate from each other with no one of the four the touchstone for all four – that was when an idea hit – I wonder.

You know how a pin ball has a rubber knob that balls hit and bounce off one way or another - I am wondering if like that rubber knob retirement sits in the middle like a big Rubber Buddha and retirement is the protagonist – we have books that include the place, scenery, location as a character so why not retirement as a character. They all bring with them their emotional and health baggage as well as, their individual economic situation which is typical of any character bouncing off any protagonist, or meeting another character in a story.

Edwin appears to befriend retirement – he makes a life for himself – he has been alone after his wife died so he knows how to take up major change in his life.

Letty sees retirement as her chance for freedom – She had to be like a parent to herself, keeping a low profile while working however, once she figured out how to be a friend with retirement she came alive pursuing an active role in making plans rather than like a humble city mouse being grateful that the country mouse would make room for her.  

Norman I have decided is a curmudgeon – he was a curmudgeon while he was working and remains one arm and arm with retirement – he reminds me of what we think of as a tight Scotsman – tight with his money, time, emotions – when he bounced off the knob called retirement he lost from the office the small caring kindnesses they exchanged.

Marcia’s life was sucked from her bones by retirement – she needed the structure of the office. Her own body became the enemy to her inner life – an ego that never seemed to have been formed.

This book on the short list for the Booker has to be more than the traditional character study within a plot – I think the story is structured so that readers bounce off the rubber Buddha called retirement as easily as Pym’s characters.

Writers typical of modern writing use characters to tell the story as if they are the disjointed part of a greater whole therefore, I am seeing the Pym’s quartet as a quartet playing music – the quartet is an ensemble of sounds describing four textures within a four part harmonic thesis.

Modernists write about a fragmented society, disempowerment, the isolation of poverty, inner cities- the modernist, unlike postmodernist reject character and plot as meaningless even rejecting meaning as a hopeless delusion.

I can see Barbara Pym writing a readable novel with one foot in character description and meaning along with the other foot in this modernistic four-textured harmony of some contentment,  some hopelessness, all the characters a fragmentation of community including some isolation and disempowerment. And I will go one further that retirement is the book's central character.

[salan]

There was a phrase that Pym used in this book that I loved.  Marcia smells lavendar and thinks, "Scent, that powerful evocator of memory."  Isn't that so true?  I also think that music is a powerful evacator of memory.
Sally

[ursamajor]

Barbara, your analyses are always so interesting and thought provoking.

Something we have not looked at is the influence of society's perception of and response to the old.  One of my triumphs was the response to my complaint a few years ago to the hospital administrator that everyone in the admissions department assumed that anyone over 65 was senile, mentally deficient, or both.  I had an interesting conversation with the department head, and, on my last visit to the same hospital, found the situation completely different.  All patients wer treated with respect and consideration!

I have had fewer experiences with change than most, I guess.  I was married at 20 and am still married to the same man aftr 58 years.  The changes in that relationship over time are remarkable, though.

The book Barbara mentions is Passages by Gail Sheehy,  There is a more recent book called New Passages, written in 1995, which I plan to look for.  I presume she extends the work past the ages she looked at before.

[JudeS]

Thanks:
To Tom for informing me about Pyms relationship with her sister.  I breathed a sigh of relief when I heard that they were good friends.

Thanks to Barb StAubrey for broadening the subject and seeing retirement as the main focus rather than the characters.
But Barb, why choose all four main characters as such lonely people? Also Barb- why do you see retirement as a Buddha just sitting there getting fat and smiling in an enigmatic way?
I worked from age 15 and now I am finally retired. I have two great grandchildren and so as you may surmise I have led a very busy life with children, grandchildren, husband etc. When I retired this year I saw myself as finally escaping the bonds of responsibility and having time to do the things I never had time for.
All of my retired friends feel the same way. I guess that meeting Pym's characters through me for a loop because I have never met people like that. Have you?

[BarbStAubrey]

Jude this book gave me so much food for thought and YES, I agree with you - we seldom meet folks who are like these characters upon retirement. However, today we are healthy, active folks when we retire. Opportunities are open to us that include starting a new career or a business.  

What has been boiling around in my head is, these office workers reminded me more of 1950 than 1977 but then memory can play tricks and maybe there still were a large number of low paid office workers that today their jobs would be eliminated as we sort and keep track of a business operation on-line.  

I am remembering when I first started to work as a Real Estate agent in 1980 and for about 10 years if a wife worked it was a very non-descript job so that her salary seldom helped the couple qualify for a larger mortgage and more important,  young couples would buy houses with a lower price tag because it needed repairs and the biggie,  because the wife with her lesser job could miss a day of work now and then or take off for a few months to open the house and be there while the various repair and remodeling work was scheduled. Now young folks want a perfect house that they can move in over a weekend, hang up their clothes and go to work on Monday morning. The education level of both is similar and the wife is making a significant salary.

That realization started my brain going - why do we call it retirement - when a young person 'graduates' college they leave behind their dependence on their parents with plans for their future  - the parties celebrate not only what they have accomplished but the opening of a new phase in life.  

Have you ever been to a company retirement party - death warmed over - the jokes are worse than the bachelor party jokes the night before his wedding. - It is as if the celebration is for a monster size loss rather than simply walking through a door to a new phase of life. Most retirement cards have folks lazing in a hammock or some other inane long-term fantasy-vacation style life.

It would be interesting to learn how much debt the college student carries upon graduation and compare that obligation to the lesser income for the retiree.

I am thinking we need to change the concept of retirement to graduation - graduation to another phase of life with different obligations and different goals and dreams to satisfy. Graduation with the adventure of choices that may or may not work out and we turn to a backup plan just like a college student who tries out various jobs and apartments with some going back to school for yet another degree. And so we go back to work to put a few more dollars in the coffer.

However, after I thought about analyzing the story that Barbara Pym wrote I am seeing it more as 'a piece' that is showing us several sides of retirement - as to the Buddha comparison - most Buddha statues that are popular is of a very large sitting man with a benign look or, as you say, 'enigmatic' look on his face - I do understand there are subtle messages according to how he holds his hands and arms and what he has in his hands etc. but I was not using the description in a religious way - only like a big immovable person without an opinion that you can see as having a non-threatening face or a dis-interested face or even as a face with a slight smile. Those interpretations is what I saw in Barbara Pym's thesis on retirement for those who had not achieved a high income during their work years.

Today, the closest thing to the dilemma of Pym's characters is among those elders who must choose a nursing  home in which their choice is limited if they do not have the financial resources that some assisted-living homes require.

[JoanK]

BARB: "And so, I am thinking how can we look at these expected life changes as we did when we were kids? As kids everything we did was exploring ..."

An important point.

"Would have to read the entire book[Staying On] to get a flavor for why it was chosen over Quartet in Autumn,"

You may get your chance. It may well be a future discussion book.

You also made me think about this book as a quartet. I know of only one book that is written in imitation of a string Quartet (the A minor by Beethoven), "Point Counterpoint" by Aldous Huxley. Could Pym have had a similar musical interpretation in mind? There does not seem to be enough interaction among the characters to make good chamber music, but it bears thinking about.

[rosemarykaye]

Well, I believe she was very keen on Aldous Huxley's novels in her youth.  Hazel Holt says (in A Lot To Ask) that BP borrowed these from the Boots Lending Library in Oswestry, starting with Crome Yellow in 1929.  She apparently thought that the novels were "the height of intellectual sophistication".  In the BBC radio talk"Finding A Voice", she said that:

"...Crome Yellow made me want to be a novelist myself.  I don't suppose for a moment that I appreciated the book's finer satirical points, but it seemed to me funnier than anything I had read before , and the idea of writing about a group of people in a certain situation - in this case upper-class intellectuals in a country house - immediately attracted me...."

Having just read Staying On, I do think it was probably more deserving of the Booker prize than QIA (and I say that as a lifelong Pym enthusiast).  I'm looking forward to discussing it at some point.  I was viewing houses for sale in Edinburgh yesterday, and whenever I went into a bathroom all I could think about were Lucy and Tusker's twin "thunderboxes" at The Lodge in Pankot 

Rosemary

[JoanP]

Good morning!
What a treat to come in this morning after taking a day off to celebrate granddaughter's third birthday!  
So many new ideas - and different ways of looking at Barbara Pym's novel.  I think we are finally getting to the reasons the book was shortlisted for the Booker prize.  And yes, JoanK is right - we are looking forward to a discussion of the novel that was the winner in 1980 - Paul Scott's  Staying On...in the coming year.  You'll be hearing more about that in the near future.

Your recent posts begin to answer the  second question in the heading  which asks for your thoughts on Pym's intention when she wrote this novel.  We'd love to hear what you think of what Marcie and Rosemary have posted -

From Marcie - -  I'm not feeling as "depressed" about the characters as most of you seem to be. I think I'm focusing less on what actually happens and more on the humorous descriptions and inner dialogs that we get to hear. I'm seeing this as a comedy of manners where how things are presented might be more significant than what happens. I might be misreading but I can see a balance between a presentation that shows humor as well as the hard facts of life."
  
From Rosemary - quoting Barbara Pym herself - "...Crome Yellow made me want to be a novelist myself.  I don't suppose for a moment that I appreciated the book's finer satirical points, but it seemed to me funnier than anything I had read before , and the idea of writing about a group of people in a certain situation - in this case upper-class intellectuals in a country house - immediately attracted me...."

And then Barbara's conclusion - this book is not really about one individual's choice about how to lead ones' life - but about retirement itself, (the main character of the book?) and the challenges, the choices  it presents to everyone...single, married or somewhere in-between. Ursa - I don't know anyone who has been married for 58 years to the same man!  I know who to come to for advice now!  My husband's retirement was quite difficult - for me!

"Choice" seems to be the mot du jour - running through most of your posts -


Joan K  "All the ingrediants that Mildred had in her life are available to the four in Quartet, but they do not choose them. That is why the ending (I feel) is upbeat. Norman and Letty, perhaps for the first time, realize that they have choices. That they can influence their world."
Joan, don't  you think Marjorie, who is the same age as Letty, is an example of this?

Pedln - "interference is another matter" -

"- it's hard to know when we are interfering and when we are helping sometimes."  nlhome
"There isn't any answer but I believe we should make reasonable efforts to help people but leave them in peace if they reject that help"  Ursa

- Amen!  Choices - provide them with choices!   I also feel that that presented with choices, both Letty and Marcia responded.  It's their perceived lack of choice that limits them.  Will Letty accept Marjorie's invitation to bring "the boys" out to the country?  Doesn't really matter...she now has the choice!

Rosemary - do you have any thoughts on Pym's comment which you cited? -  "the idea of writing about a group of people in a certain situation - in this case upper-class intellectuals in a country house - immediately attracted me...."  Was this comment made in reference to Quartet in Autumn?

 



 

[rosemarykaye]

JudeS - just dashing out, but had to respond to your comments about the joy of retirement.  I am not really retired, as I left my last job because of our move to Edinburgh (rather prematurely as it turned out!), and I suppose I will have to look for another one when I get there, but in the meanwhile I am having a great time; it's wonderful to be able to organise your own time, to get involved in what you want to, or even just to stop and watch the world go by - I seem to have spent most of the past 30 years rushing. 

Today I let my daughter sleep in because she had been so late back from Glasgow last night, then I drove her into school about 11, popped into her library, then tootled back - the kick I get out of things like that, just being out and about in the daytime, is really quite tremendous!  If I had still been at work I would have had to have forced her out of bed at 7am, driven her back in heavy rush hour traffic, then rushed into the office and started on all of that.  I don't miss it one jot - I still keep in touch with the people I liked there, and I now have time to see my other friends, do my gardening, wander round the library, go swimming, go for walks, etc etc, without constantly watching the clock.  i consider myself blessed.

R

[JoanP]

 

Good morning, Rosemary - your post makes me think of Letty and Marcia and how they spent their free time now that they don't have to go in to work.

Let's talk more today about the title Pym finally decided to name this book!  At some point she changed it from "Four Point Turn."   JoanK and Barbara have turned our attention to the meaning of the word "quartet"  -  Barbara asks -  "Could Pym have had a similar musical interpretation in mind?  There does not seem to be enough interaction among the characters to make good chamber music, but it bears thinking about."

 I read somewhere that "quartet music was traditionally intended primarily for the private enjoyment of amateur musicians rather than for public performance."  In their own way, do you think the quartet makes enjoyable music together?  But not so much when alone?  The problem of loneliness seems not to have begun with retirement perhaps - but rather not really having a life outside of the office while still working?

[JudeS]

There are many Quartets. Classical Music,Barbershop, Jazz, Bridge etc.
And then there are "The Four Quartets" of T.S.Eliot. who says before the long poem
"The way upward and the way downward are the same".
From Part 1

Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future
And time future contained in time past.
If all time is eternally present
All time is unredeemable.
What might have been is an abstraction
Remaining a perpetual possibility
Only in a world of speculation.


The discussion has stimulated my brain but I would not like to spend time with the characters in the book in my real life.

[pedln]

Edwin appears to befriend retirement – he makes a life for himself – he has been alone after his wife died so he knows how to take up major change in his life.

Barbara, I’m glad you brought up Edwin.  You say he knows how to take up major change.  True.  And I also think that towards the end he finally that he has shown some change in himself.  Edwin is the one who takes on responsibility for Marcia at the hospital.  He claims he’s her closest relative.  He also is the one who makes her funeral arrangements and provides a means for the others to get to her funeral.  He's showing concern for others.

Quartet and Four-Point Turn –Quartet in Autumn is, for me, an easier phrase to accept and understand than Four Point turn.  And it is so fitting, so appropriate, so descriptive.  A group, a foursome, a team in their declining years – as Jude says, there are many quartets --but did they ever work in harmony?  We really don’t see that until the very end, when they are a threesome.  But even in death, Marcia is very much a presence.  At first I thought the musical quartet analogy was a bit of a stretch, but I can see it now. Even more so know that BP enjoyed reading Alduous Huxley, perhaps even including Point Counterpoint.

(WORD 2010 and my laptop give me jitters, must stop before there is even more gobbledigook. Supposedly I’m typing this in “compatibility mode.”

[rosemarykaye]

JoanP - I don't think BP was referring particularly to QIA when she talked about wanting to write about a group of people in a certain situation - it does seem particularly apt for that novel, but really many of her books are about groups of people - eg the lovely Some Tame Gazelle is about people living in a small English village.  I think she was just talking about her immediate reaction - aged 16 - to Aldous Huxley's books, because after she read Crome Yellow she immediately (in 1929-30) wrote a very similar novel that was never published, "Young Men In Fancy Dress", about which Hazel Holt says:

"The influence of Aldous Huxley is all-pervasive, though the naivety of outlook occasionally makes it read more like a novel about Chelsea written by Daisy Ashford."

Hazel Holt also remarks:

"The novel also gives us some intimations of the complex, contradictory and generally impossible things she looked for in a young man and explains why she was so often disappointed."

Rosemary

[nlhome]

After reading these two novels, I did read Some Tame Gazelle, which I enjoyed, and a bit of Civil to Strangers with other writings in the book as well, which needed to be returned before I could really get into it.

As for Quartet, I think a theme is "aloneness" - Each of the 4 is alone so much, even when in the office. They seem to have little walls erected around them, with doors that stick closed much of the time.

Someone here said they would lnot have liked to know the characters - I think I would have liked Letty.

[JoanP]

Jude -  I'm smiling at "barbershop quartet" - hadn't thought of that one. -  nlhome thinks of "aloneness"  when thinking of these characters.  Yet don't the members of  any quartet need some "togetherness"  to make music? Pedln asks if they've ever worked in harmony.  What did Pym intend when she chose this title?
She wrote aboutfriends living together in the country. - Even if that quote did not refer directly to this quartet, did it occur to you that the four of them would be better off living together than in separate dwellings once they retired?  I've often thought that if it came to it, I'd prefer to live in a house with some friends rather than live alone or even with my sons' families.  But there is a such a strong desire for solitude in these characters.  Their "aloneness"  seems to be something they cherish....or do they?

I just checked my library - they have three copies of Some Tame Gazelle - one is checked out.  I plan to pick up a copy on Friday.

Pedln - still jumping even in the compatibility mode?  How about you, Rosemary - did you try it?

Jude,  the TSE verses give much to think about...
  

Time present and time past
  Are both perhaps present in time future
  And time future contained in time past.

Nlhome -  I'd like to have spent some time with Marcia - but would try to avoid her stare.  There's so much going on behind those spectacles.

[Tom in Cantab]

I think that, while change and how different people respond to it is indeed central to Quartet, "Possibility" may be the great underlying theme in Pym.  Her novels typically end quietly but hopefully, in a gradual decrescendo, not with a big, dramatic climax or the tidy resolution of the story lines, and they leave the reader wondering what will happen next.  The last line of Quartet is

But at least it made one realise that life still held infinite possibilities for change.

  The changes may be tiny and the choices sometimes wrong, but making them empowers us.

The last lines of A Few Green Leaves, which she knew would be her final work, are

...for Emma was going to stay in the village herself.  She [an anthropologist by training] could write a novel and even, as she was beginning to realise, embark on a love affair which need not necessarily be an unhappy one.

  So tentative ("was beginning to realise", "not necessarily an unhappy one"), yet life-affirming.

Tom

[BarbStAubrey]

Hmm Tom I hear you about “possibilities and tiny choices” - I wonder if the balance in this story is between, autonomy in the retiree's alienating modern world versus, community.

My reaction to looking at making 'tiny choices' best describing Barbara Pym's writing reminds me that maybe we are better comparing her writing to Anna Karenina, who struggles with her love stronger than her duty and her possibilities limited by society's perception of her and how the men in her life regard her therefore, leaving her few possibilities with suicide her choice. Or, even Kafka, where possibilities and choice making seem always beyond the characters grasp versus, the often compared writer Jane Austen, whose female characters were bound by more constrictive social mores and possibilities yet, choices were seldom tentative and it did not take suicide to bind Jane Austen's characters into community. In QofA, it was only after the death of Marcia that community among the Quartet emerged.

I am wondering if yes, as you point us in the right direction, there are sentences with tentative sounding adjectives and adverbs however, the choice by the author to change the circumstances used to give the characters a different perspective was rather a big, dramatic climax. Marcia's death came quietly but look how we readers struggled trying to come to terms with her choice and the choices of the other characters that may have contributed to Marcia's death. We did not struggle as if walking on thin tissue paper, our emotions were in crisis. Do we know, was this the reaction Barbara Pym wanted to achieve?

I hear quiet and I wonder if that is a technique used by Barbara Pym to accentuate the big bold dramatic event – I am remembering that play of quiet versus, bold drama between Mildred and the Napier's. I see Barbara Pym capable of both writing techniques, the quiet tentative and the bold drama. She really was quite an accomplished writer wasn't she?

[JudeS]

Barb,

I am so glad you mentioned Kafka. Through much of this book I kept feeling that this is like  "The Castle" by Kafka. I didn't say anything but the feeling of people striving and never getting anywhere was so Kafkaish. Also working in an office and not telling the reader what the people do is an idea straight out of Kafka. Meaningless busywork all unknown and unimportant to humankind and somehow even the four in this book must have known that they were filling their time with nothing but striving. No meaning.A trial.

Hopelessness. But some of you see hope pushing up tiny green sprouts from this wasteland (Another poem of T.S.Eliot "The Wasteland"). Yet neither Kafka nor Eliot leave me  with such hopelessness as Pym does.

[JoanP]

Good morning!  Are you into the Thanksgiving mode yet?  My house is such a mess, I don't know how I'll be ready for guests by Thursday.  But Thanksgiving is a really pleasant, stress=free celebration, isn't it?  A time to give thanks for all we have - and overlook what is missing...or messy.  A Happy Thanksgiving to ALL of YOU!  (Including you, Rosemary, for whom we give many thanks!  )

Just time for a few thoughts this morning. From your recent posts,  I am sensing a difference in the way we perceive Pym's message in Quartet.in Autumn. (We need to talk more about Barbara's observation - "it was only after the death of Marcia that community among the Quartet emerged."  There's something about the "in Autumn"  in the title that seems to complete the meaning of the "quartet.")


Jude has written before of Marcia's depression - and perhaps the author's depression as she writes through her terminal illness:
"...neither Kafka nor Eliot leave me  with such hopelessness as Pym does." Jude

But Tom speaks of hopefullness:
"Her novels typically end quietly but hopefully, in a gradual decrescendo" Tom

If Pym is writing a satire of the seventies, of the welfare state and its shortcomings, and manages to get her readers thinking of the need for change, while ending on an note that implies "the infinite possibilities for change"  - then I think she is indeed, as Barbara observes -
"quite an accomplished writer."

OK, I challenge anyone to diagram the above sentence!  And if you do, you win a prize!  Sorry I am out of time, or I'd break it up to four different sentences.  I need Marcie - she's my best editor!

[marcie]

Joan, your sentence is complex and packed with meaning. I do think that Pym accomplishes that goal.

[BarbStAubrey]

Joan  you observed:

There's something about the "in Autumn"  in the title that seems to complete the meaning of the "quartet."

For me there is something about how a poet can throw a light on the tender mercies of a story teller. P.K. Page captures some of what Barbara Pym is identifying using 'Autumn' in her title, a well thought through metaphor on many levels.

Autumn
          ~ by P. K. Page

Whoever has no house now will never have one.
Whoever is alone will stay alone
Will sit, read, write long letters through the evening
And wander on the boulevards, up and down...
           - from Autumn Day, Rainer Maria Rilke

Its stain is everywhere.
The sharpening air
of late afternoon
is now the colour of tea.
Once-glycerined green leaves
burned by a summer sun
are brittle and ochre.
Night enters day like a thief.
And children fear that the beautiful daylight has gone.
Whoever has no house now will never have one.

It is the best and the worst time.
Around a fire, everyone laughing,
brocaded curtains drawn,
nowhere-anywhere-is more safe than here.
The whole world is a cup
one could hold in one's hand like a stone
warmed by that same summer sun.
But the dead or the near dead
are now all knucklebone.
Whoever is alone will stay alone.

Nothing to do. Nothing to really do.
Toast and tea are nothing.
Kettle boils dry.
Shut the night out or let it in,
it is a cat on the wrong side of the door
whichever side it is on. A black thing
with its implacable face.
To avoid it you
will tell yourself you are something,
will sit, read, write long letters through the evening.

Even though there is bounty, a full harvest
that sharp sweetness in the tea-stained air
is reserved for those who have made a straw
fine as a hair to suck it through-
fine as a golden hair.
Wearing a smile or a frown
God's face is always there.
It is up to you
if you take your wintry restlessness into the town
and wander on the boulevards, up and down.

Great choice of book for this time of year Joan - Thanks for guiding us through this conversation.

Here is a photo of a November wildflower that blankets our roadside this time of year as a Thanksgiving card to y'all - Thanks for sharing - It was a grand conversation - http://www.texaswildflowerpictures.com/wildflowers/engelmann.jpg
We know that Christmas is on its way when we see the Spanish Dagger's in bloom - http://corditecountryshownotes.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/spanish-dagger.jpg?w=570

Blessings to y'all this Thanksgiving and like many of you I am off to prepare the traditional pies, Turkey and 'fixins' - I must clean the windows - the deer look in to see what I am doing each evening and like any animal they smudge the windows - the holidays is when I 'Spring' clean since my Spring is busy plus, the garden takes up any remaining time in Spring. Thanks again, great discussion!

[rosemarykaye]

Barb - that is a wonderful poem, thank you so much for finding it for us.  I am going to read it over again a few times.  Thanks also for the great photos - in Aberdeen now it is dark, wet and wintry, although I was out in my garden this morning and did find cyclamen, violas and roses with flowers, and lots of berries on the pyracantha.  I also saw a flock of birds on a tree in our very suburban road, they had sort of crested heads and red bits on their wings and I have never seen them before - all we usually get are pigeons with the occasional blackbird.  And how lovely to have deer looking through your window - I lived for a year in a little cottage in Surrey with a stream at the bottom of the garden.  Deer visited frequently, but I don't think they ever looked in.  Do you have a photo of your house?  it sounds idyllic.

Thanks again,

Rosemary