Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online

[Babi]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

January Book Club Online  "Little Bee" by Chris Cleave Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined. In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion.

Facts: *Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960.  Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens. *Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world.  Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high.  There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse? *The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens  for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called,  to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing  numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense.

Reading Schedule

January 2,   Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9,   Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16,  Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31,  Conclusions 

Discussion Leaders:  Traude and Andy

Well, ALF says this is the place, sidebars and all, so I'm going to plunge in.

 My  first impression of Little Bee is that she has a tart tongue,  and it revels a young girl
both wary and hopeful,  harshly realistic and not at all naïve.
   It is horrifying to think  she has experienced pain that makes her constantly be alert to a way of suicide,  “if the men suddenly came”.   In that one brief phrase, repeated  again and again, without detail, she manages to convey a sickening sense of rapacity and violence.
   With all this, there are still the notes of humor.  For instance, the  line that she  figured out “how to kill myself under Labour and Conservative governments, and why it was not important to have a plan of suicide under the Liberal Democrats.”   I do hope someone British will be able to explain that one to me.

[pedln]

Good morning, everyone, and  a very Happy New Year.

This book, with all its flashbacks, is going to be hard to discuss without spilling some beans.  But I like the style, of mixing the protatongists and letting them speak up about whatever memory comes up in their minds.  Keeps one up on his/her toes.

I'll get back immigration later, but my first thoughts in this book are on Charlie.  Why the everpresent Batman suit?  Is Sarah just being understanding about this or is there another reason. And my does the child speak as he does?  The author never misses a beat there, does he.

Babi -- yeah, if the men came -- death would be preferable then.  Wow.

My book must go back to the library today.

[crescentwitch]

The constant thought of dying, of wanting to die for Little Bee is similar to the depression Andrew felt and the final act of suicide. He must have thought of killing himself everyday, just as Little Bee did. The comment about the men coming is very disturbing. I'm going to continue to read, I don't want to miss a thing.

[ALF43]

crescentwitch- I feel sorrier for LB than I do Andrew. 

"The African girl they locked up in the immigration detention, poor child, she never really escaped.  She is still loclked up in there, forever, under the fluorescent lights, curled up on the green linoleum floor with her knees tucked up under her chin."

At least the weak Andrew found a way out of his misery.  Little Bee will continue to amaze and amuse us with her strengths she discovers daily.  What a journey for all of us.

[straudetwo]

Thank you for your responses. Your points are well taken.

Chapters 1 to 3  have not fully revealed how Little Bee, Sarah and Andrew met.

But what  Little Bee experienced, even before meeting Sarah and Andrew, was so traumatic that she is haunted by the fear of the  the men coming back for her, again.  In that case, IF they come back,  she wants to be prepared to kill herself, wherever that may be and by any means available at that time.  Such planning, I believe, holds the fear at bay and gives her some sense of security. After all, one of the first things she tells us in the book is that she is a survivor.  
She's lived in the bleak building with the linoleum floors and the glaring lights for two years.  She is about to be released. She still hopes.

Not so Andrew. He is haunted by his memories of that terrible night on the beach. He's unable
to find his way back to his former life and performs is job at the Times without the passion he had for it. He can't sleep. He's ready to end it all.

Charlie and his fierce identification with Batman is surprising.  My son grew up in he sixties and I remember the TV series. The author tells us that his two energetic young children were very much "into" the character.  
There may have been a thematic reason for giving Charlie and Batman such an important role  in this story.

[bookad]

Deb here

listening to little Bee talk, and realizing how significant a small gesture of a bottle of nail polish in a care package is to her mind frame, and how she  rationalizes another persons length of stay in detention by the accumulation of their wardrobe (likely from some persons excess clothing)-to me a powerful way of making emphasis of her situation and stamina of her inner being
-to find a young person in her age group needing to bring to the forefront of her being strength against a situation not of her making is so sad......and she doesn't succumb to feeling sorry for herself it seems

[Steph]

 Ikeep  wondering iifLittle Bee thinks that it is not "If the men come", but "when the men come". Her fear is overwhelming. I know it is not fair , but I keep thinking that African countries cannot seem to break the poverty and starvation barriers.. How many years have they had some sort of civil unrest in most of the countries. and Why are you saying Nigeria..Did I miss a reference??

[ALF43]

Steph- Little Bee is a Nigerian, displaced teen refugee.  Their is strife throughout the entire country and I just read an article about the wars in Somalia, Darfur and all of Sudan which all have roots in tribal competition for land and livestock.  Nigeria's is for oil exploration threatening the population and their holdings.  They are working on establishing diplomacy (I don't see that working.)

[ALF43]

There were three girls that accompanied LB OUT of the detention center.  I loved the Jamaican woman who had the

savy to get them out of there, the second girl who didn't speak English just "holding on to a bag of lemons" (her yellow sari) and the third girl with all of the papers. She is the one who told LB of the atrocities of the "men-coming" that also frightens Steph.
LB panics with the thought of the men coming-
"the-men-came-and-they-"raped-my-girls

• burned -my-village
• tied-my-girls

• took--my-girls
• cut-my-breast

And on and on these atrocities were related to LittleB, each story ending in "and-then-they-put-me-in-here."
Good Lord, if that's not enough to scare the bee-jeebers out of some child, nothing is.

 [/list]

[Bow_Belle]

Happy New year to all

I wish to answer the question posed as to why  Bee didn't have a plan to kill herself under the Liberals. This is because they have not won an election since 1916. Because we had no clear winner at the last election in May this Year the Liberals went into Coalition with the Conservatives because the Labour Party did not have enough Members of Parliament even with  help from other Parties (i.e Northern Ireland MP's etc) to form a Majority. The writer had no way of knowing that they would ever get any power!

My first thoughts are that Bee says that money can cross boundaries and can move freely around the world but not people. I can see that the way that Asylum Seekers and economic migrants are treated in this country is clearly high lighted in this book.

The writer is showing how dispassionate Bee has become to survive her incarceration for two years at the tender age of 14. Bee mentions facts and feelings in the same tone.

we do not know yet why bee is afraid of Men and binds her breasts so as not to let them see she is no longer a child. she seems very streetwise and sensible. Bee is a Leader as she finds a way to get a Taxi out of the place for herself and others.

Why it took her 5 days to arrive at the house still remains a mystery

[ALF43]

Bow_Belle- Gay!  I am so pleased that you've found us here.  We need your clarification and appreciate your insight here.  I admit to my ignorance but I just do not understand this:

Bee didn't have a plan to kill herself under the Liberals. This is because they have not won an election since 1916.
 

Would it have made a difference if the conservatives or others were in power?  LB was a child and knew nothing of politics.

[Ella Gibbons]

I have some reading to catch up; both here in the discussion and in the book but I  must say I love the book; I have finished it but will skim the first three chapters soon (today?).  My visiting sister is leaving Saturday at which time I can devote more time. 

The way the author introduced us to the characters was confusing at first as someone mentioned, but then authors  use many devices to grab out attention.  Was Little Bee telling her story to us, the reader?  Or reminiscing or what?  I must do some concentrating.  I remember in the chapter the colors she described - a bag full of "lemon yellow: - her life was gray, the descriptions of the rooms.

Do detention centers and removal centers (as mentioned in the heading) have the same purpose?  Did Little Bee come over hidden in a cargo ship (that will be uncovered as I re-read the book I'm sure, just a fact I have forgotten).

I live in the midwest and, other than reading about those states and countries,that are having border problems I know very little about immigrants, although I can imagine the problems, the horrors,  for both and although my city did give refugeeto many Somalians, I don't know how they have assimilated or whether there has been concern.  There is nothing in our city's paper to indicate either. 

Who decides where these refugees should live?  Does our government parcel them out to various cities?  I know Little Bee had a destination, but the others?

As CRESCENTWITCH pointed out there are many thoughts of dying in the book; a difference, possibly -   Little Bee is speaking for herself, but Andrew is portrayed by his wife.  Or does he come into the book in later chapters?  I just forget.  I loved this book.

I did put a postit tab on the first page of the third chapter - "In your country, if you are not scared enough already, you can go to watch a horror film......for me and the girls from my village horror is a disease and we are sick with it."

[Bow_Belle]

My text keeps jumping all over the place so I am continuing afresh.
We also yet do not know what happened on the beach or why Andrew Killed himself and why Sarah lost a finger.

The contrast between Charlie's upbringing and Bees is highlighted by the fact Charlie has two batman suits. Bee has so few possessions  she judges how much her fellow inmates have by the time they have been incarcerated and able to get a few things together.

It could be said that Charlie is infanticised wheras Bee has been deprived of some of her childhood.

[Bow_Belle]

with regard to Dafur. Many Africans have been living there for ages. Because of global warming there are problems with pasture for the animals, The idigenous people have turned on the Africans out of fear. They have behaved like monsters towards them shocking! The Africans have had  hardly any help Pure Genocide!

[Bow_Belle]

do you think that the author by getting Bee to decide the difference between suicide under the Conservatives or Labour is showing just how grown up she has become well beyond her years?

Also Charlie has a problem with Death but Bee has probably seen it from a young age!

[salan]

I think Little Bee is imagining the many ways she can kill herself in different circumstances in order to maintain some control of her life.  She has control of so little and has seen and suffered so much.  She is very intelligent and knows right away that the use of language determines how you are perceived; thus she learns the "Queen's English".

She treasured the bottle of cheap nail polish that was in the charity box.  It made me stop and think--the next time I donate, I will include some "luxury" items.  I had an English teacher who used to quote (can't remember where the quote originated):  "If you have 2 loaves of bread; sell one, and buy an orchid for your soul".  The nail polish was LB's orchid.
Sally

[ursamajor]

If of thy mortal goods thou art bereft,
And from thy slender store two loaves alone to thee are left,
Sell one, and with the dole
Buy hyacinths to feed thy soul.

Moslih Eddin Saadi, Gulistan (Garden of Roses)

Interesting - I always thought this was by Omar Khayham

[ALF43]

Miss Ella- hello and welcome back at anytime to our discussion.  Yes, LittleB is relating the story to us the reader as if reminisciing and pondering her plight.

How astute of you to pick up on the color theme, Ella. 
Yes LB believed that the new color of her life way gray, two years in the gray centre and now she is an illegal.  Gray is a color that has had no happiness in it, for her.

LB points out to us that she is a born-again citizen of the developing world and will prove that her life is gray.  She left the center with one pair of gray socks & one pair of gray briefs.
When she telephoned for a cab the receiver was gray and dirty, frightening her.
The girls, while outside waiting for the taxi and kept their backs to the detention center because "this is what you do to a big gray monster who has kept you in his belly for 2 years, when he suddenly spits you out."  Now that is profound writing as she swears when she walks away from the farm
"she will never spend another day trapped in the color gray."

[ALF43]

What do make of the "yellow" inferences?

ursamajor & Salan- that is a very appropriate poem for our Little Bee.  Do you think that she did that when she walked away to find Sarah?

Sally- That is a excellent point about LB taking control of her surroundings.  I hadn't considered that she was looking to control, only that she was possessed with great fear. 
It's amazing what we do when we fear something.  We should list the various ways she chooses to kill herself if "the-men-come."
I remember chuckling when she began to eat the meals that were brought to her so that when the time came she would be strong enough to kill herself.
"Which will make me stronger for the act of suicide? Carrots or the peas."

• in the time of Churchill she'd stand under bombs
• Victoria- she'd throw herself under a horse

• Henry the 8th- marry him

that's my favorite one

• if with Queen Elizabeth II @ a garden party- she'd kill herself with a broken champagne glass

[/list]

[ALF43]

Gay- how about this?- ... and the funniest of all as she attends the garden party on the great lawn of Buckingham palace in London she might opt for  a sharp lobster claw, or even a small piece of cucumber that she could suck down into her windpipe if "the-men-suddenly-came."
That poor little honey.  She read everything they gave her to read and really loved your Queen Gay.

I love this new "profile" statement below my post that I found.  It made me think of Little Bee when I read it.

[straudetwo]

There's no trace of a long post I mailed earlier, so I'm starting over - more briefly, though.

STEPH, yes, we are talking specificallyabout Nigeria, Little Bee's native country. For reference, please check the header with the added background information on on Nigeria,  and  on the British Detention Centres.

Ella, As we read on, we will get more deeply into  immigration, legal and illegal, which is indeed one of the most pressing problems of our time.  Here in New England we have large communities of legal Brazilian immigrants. They are industrious and a  number of them run popular restaurants.
Yes, little Bee mentions a cargo ship on page 3 of chapter 3.
This is the day of Little Bee's release, which is unexpected. The exit door is in sight, a telephone and three other girls in front of her, trying to call out. 
Little Bee has a keen intelligence and a fine sense of observation. Yes, De, can't you just see the girls in their mismatched outfits in garish colors, clutching a see-through bags with their prized possessions ? Isn't it heart-rending to see what wonders a little bottle of nil polish did for Little Bee's mental well-being ?

I've spent the morning poring over a NG map of the world, spread out on the dining room table, and concentrated on Africa. The African continent is gigantic compared with continental Europe, just across the narrow Strait of Gibraltar, a distance easily mastered by the masses fleeing hunger.

The map has been re-drawn several times since, most dramatically at the end of WW I and, gradually, as independence came.  For many African states the transition has been far from smooth. We need only to think of the long-suffering Congo in its various mutations; Rwanda and the genocide of Hutus and Tutsis; Zimbabwe (the former Rhodesia); not least the Sudan, which is in danger of splitting into two as we speak.  The attention of the world is f focused on that struggle, thanks to the good work of actor George Clooney and a new satellite in the sky (according to TIME mag).

But what can be done for regions which once had arable, fertile land but left desolate as huge dust bowls as a result of draughts ?

Hopes and expectations for Nigeria were high when oil was discovered there about the time of independence. The country is a major exporter, but the life of the ordinary Nigerian has not changed for the better. A military government was in charge for 13 years. Unrest is a continuum.
This then is the background for the story of Little Bee.

Now I'll close bur will be back later. I hope this time the post will go through !




 

[straudetwo]

Thank goodness, the post got through.

I'd like to add something that was in my invisible first post but not in the one just ahead.

Gay,  Little Bee describes her happy childhood in the village with fondness and longing. She talks of the simple pleasures, of swinging from a low tree in a rope-tied tire, being with her giirl friends and her big sister Nkiruka,  of watching an old movie, time and again.  Could there have been much contact with outsiders or interest  in political developments ?

Little Bee has a natural awareness, a genuine intuitiveness that stand her in good stead and endears her to the reader.

[bellamarie]

I'm a bit late checking in after a wonderful New Year's Eve, and some fun time spent with my grandchildren before my winter break came to an end as well as theirs, so I had some catching up to do.  I read all your posts and the one thing no one has touched on yet that jumped out at me instantly was how sad and bittersweet it was for Yevette to provide a way for their release from the center.  How random of a pick for those girls to be chosen.  Yevette in wanting her own release, gave no thought of what the release would mean for the other girls.  This release was not one that would allow them to enter into the society with an acceptance or capability to find a place to live or work.  It broke my heart reading how they stood at the door with hesitation because once they left they had no place to go.  In the center under the worst of conditions they knew what the next day would bring.  Imagine how scared they had to be, yet who could ever want to remain in the center by choice?  Yevette in a sense played Russian roulette with the lives of others for her own freedom, and ultimately cost the life of the girl in the "Dunlop Green Flash trainers."  

Another troublesome part is Little Bee calling Andrew and he begging her not to come and yet she did anyways.  I have such mixed feelings of her actions and yet I am suspecting Cleave will reveal much in the chapters to follow.  Why did Sarah even let Little Bee remain with her throughout the funeral and have such trust in her to let her be near Charlie at such a vulnerable time in his life?  She is ultimately a stranger to them is she not, even though they met on a beach and experienced something horrible a couple of years back.

I found myself laughing out loud at times and yet the sorrow and darkness of these chapters seem to envelope me.  As someone stated earlier, I too found its better for me to read this during the daylight so it does not stay with me into my sleep hours for fear of nightmares.  Like I posted to my Facebook friends, "This book is not for sissies."  lol  I have great compassion for Little Bee, yet I also am a bit upset with her for looking Andrew and Sarah up and landing on their doorstep.  Was her phone call the last straw that caused Andrew to finally submit to his suicide?  What do you all think about one person doing what they feel is best for themself, without thought of how it may effect others they involve?  Will Sarah come to resent Little Bee for the death of Andrew?  

This is a book of many questions and so highly emotional.  I am certain we will leave no stone unturned in our discussion.

Ciao for now~

[straudetwo]

Interesting points,  Bellamarie, thank you.

We really just started getting into the character of Little Bee,  we haven't said much  about Sarah yet. So far, Little Bee looks a lot better, at least to me, than Sarah.  Don't you as a day care provider think her parenting efforts left something to be desired ?

It was indeed Yevette who obtained the release of all four by sleeping with a guard o guards. She was thinking of her own freedom, of course, but I doubt that she had any idea what even she would do or where she'd go when released.  She didn't know the name or location of the Center, or how to handle the phone. She did not realize how precarious her own situation was, much less be concerned for the others, IMHO.

Little Bee, the survivor, she tells us more than once.  Unlike the three other girls, LB had a contact.  She had met Andrew and Sarah two years earlier, she had found and saved Andrew's driver's license,  his address and phone number. There was also a dictionary in her see-through bag. It was all she had.
Why should she NOT call Andrew ? What do you feel she should have done instead ?
Well, she did call.  And Andrew blew up at her, he shouted and cursed. 

On the day of the funeral Little Bee knocks on the door of the house in Kingston-upon-Thames.  Sarah lets her in.  And why not ?

We don't know yet what happened on the beach in Nigeria,  and what the bond may be,  but the very least I can say is that Sarah's was a humanitarian act.
 
Why should LB be a danger to Charlie ? 
From what we are told by Sarah herself, she loved the child dearly but cherished her career at least as much.  It is easy to see that Andrew, who worked from home, was with Charlie more than Sarah, or how much time he spent with the child.  INMHO Sarah also did a very poor job in preparing the child for his father's permanent absence --- other than talking about heaven and where in its pastures Andrew might be at any given moment.

What a deeply upsetting, ghastly scene in the cemetery when the child, in his batman custom cum mask, somehow intuits that Andrew is in the casket and screams to have the lid opened.  Let's not overlook the fact that  Little Bee saves the day.

After the trip to Nigeria Andrew became increasingly depressed.  Sarah was well aware, she tells us so herself. There's no indication that anything was done to address the problem or change the routine in any way to help Andrew cope better. What does that tell you ?

More tomorrow.  It's only Monday 

[bellamarie]

Egads.....I just knew using my nook was going to cause me problems, I glanced at the header and saw read to page 85 and so I did.  Now after reading the posts it appears my page 85 takes me beyond chapter 3.  So....please forgive me if I mentioned anything beyond ch. 3 ahead of time.  I am getting used to using this ereader and it's proving to be a bit of a challenge.  I am determined not to fling it across the room or return it to the store and buy me a hardcover book instead.  I just realized Sarah becomes the narrator in chapter 4 so I will refrain from mentioning anything more about her, Charlie, or the funeral until we get there.  Again, just bare with me. 

Ciao for now~

[Bow_Belle]

Gay,  Little Bee describes her happy childhood in the village with fondness and longing. She talks of the simple pleasures, of swinging from a low tree in a rope-tied tire, being with her giirl friends and her big sister Nkiruka,  of watching an old movie, time and again.  Could there have been much contact with outsiders or interest  in political developments ?

straudetwo

I seem to have missed reading about Bee in her home environment. when I was 14 I can remember my history teacher bringing in a tabloid newspaper into the class dissing it and giving us a real lecture in politics. I don't really know why the author made the comment about the different political parties. I can imaging though that conversations do occur between inmates as to whether things are going to get better or worse depending on who has power!

[Steph]

The funeral scene was horrible.. but when I think deeply, I realize that when the person we love most in the world dies, we all may stand at the grave and want to scream and hurl ourselves at them.This burial in the earth is so hard on the survivors..
Th e little boy is truly disturbed.. But the most disturbing thing so far.. The Suicide.. by the girl in the sneakers. I keep imagining the kindly farmer and wife who gave them a place to stay and food.. Can you imagine the trouble they may have been in with the authorities.. I keep thinking they will never ever try to help a refugee again.. And I could not blame them.

[ALF43]

I'm off to Tai Chi which I have never done before. When I return I will answer your posts.  You are spot on about the funeral Steph and Bella.

Where is everybody?  Did we frighten off Babi, Rosemary and Pedln?  YOOOHOO .

[pedln]

I hear you, Andy.  I had to return LB to the library and am now #2 on the waiting list.  So much of this book is flashback, and I don’t want to spill any beans.

Little Bee has a lot of street smarts, whether they be from the street, the jungle, or wherever.  She knows how to be a survivor – how many 14-year-olds, with no money and only the clothes on their backs can get themselves across a body of water to another country?  So, she’s made it thus far – to England, and now the next step is to get to her only contacts – Andrew and Sarah.  I don’t think she even knows about Charlie.

The survivors know they need papers, identity, and if they don’t have them, they don’t want to bring attention to themselves.  That was Yvette’s plan – no identity, no papers, just blend in with the crowd.  She was realistic enough to know that she wasn’t going to get any papers no-how.  And she didn’t want to be deported back to Jamaica.  The girl with the sneakers – without a case-worker holding her hand – she just lost hope.  Maybe she had a chance a legitimacy, and now it was gone.

So here is survivor Bee, outside the center’s gates.  The taxi is long gone.  No papers, nothing.  16 years old now, and all she sees is countryside – where is the city, specifically Kingston on Thames.  We can look on Google earth and see that it is SW of London.  But Little Bee, did she have a map -- no wonder it took her five days.  I don’t fault her for going to them.  She knows nothing about their lives, only that they are her only hope.

[ALF43]

Deb- I echo your sentiments about LB's inner stamina.  Yikes at 16 years old, mind you.
You mentioned earlier that LB doesn't seem to feel sorry for herself, she just keeps plugging along.

Bella & Traude--   
I loved the "Bob Marley" sway of Yvette's voice as she proves your statement of giving

no thought of what the release would mean for the others.

"Maybe yu's right to be scared. Lil Bee, cos u a smart girl.  Maybe me jus too dumb to be afraid. But me spend 18 month locked up in dat place an if ur tink me dumb enough to wait one second longer on account of your trembli an your quakin, yut better tink two times." 
IMO.She wasn't dumb, she was wily.

Another troublesome part is Little Bee calling Andrew and him begging her not to come and yet she did anyways.  I have such mixed feelings of her actions

Bellamarie-Do you feel that she had any other choice at 16 years old?  Would she have hesitated after being warned NOT to come to the house if she other sanctuary?They were the only road to safety for her.  And YES I do believe it was the last straw for the weak Andrew.  Depression and despair knows no bounds. Do you think he saw suicide as his penitence?

Bella- I feel your pain with the ereader,as I am busy at work with my new Nook. I have learned that from hence forth it works better for us to note chapters for our ereaders   instead of pages.

[Ella Gibbons]

BOWBELLE posted: " Also Charlie has a problem with Death but Bee has probably seen it from a young age!"  I had not thought of that.  Does seeing much of death make it any easier to accept?  Well, I'm sure losing a loved one is very difficult (most of us know that and are dealing with it), but Charlie, a child, of course, doesn't understand.  Age matters doesn't it?

Straude, of course, it was upsetting at the funeral when Charlie screamed about the casket, understandable from a child's point of view.  But a child.  And what a parent, a mother, to let this child wear this Batman outfit constantly.  Poor parenting, but I think she spoke of a nanny.  I must go look at the book?

I agree with those of you who said that LB was right to call Andrew's house; perhaps, "right" is not the correct word.  She did the only thing she knew to do.  The others were not so fortunate to have a number to call.  Shall we speculate now on their future?

Glorious England!  Why did LB feel it was all so "fresh and new and bright?"  She undid the binding on her breasts - freedom.  How could she feel that when she had no idea of her future, only  her past?

[straudetwo]

Oh Steph, I totally agree.  In her preoccupation with herself, feelings of guilt - and other "distractions", Sarah had not found the words to prepare her son.  The anguish of the child was heart-breaking - abut it could have been lessened had the mother been less self-complacent.  

Yevette and LB complement each other (complementary as in making one whole out of two halves) -  they "click".  The other two follow automatically.    In truth, it did not occur to me early on that the girls could have been released by mistake and were  illegals.  But the farmer's comments made it clear.  

Whether or not to open one's door, even to a relative, can be a dilemma. My mother faced it years ago. The door bell rang.  I was about to skip  to the door but she stopped me, put her finger on her lips, and we tiptoed away.  Later she told me she had seen the would-be visitor's face; he was the eldest son of her sister and the black sheep of the extended family.  A handsome young man in his twenties, he traveled the country from one relative to the next and lived on their donations - only to lose everything at the gambling tables - until, that is,  the family stopped feeding his habit.

[Ella Gibbons]

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/81429/section/2 - The USA ICE

[Aberlaine]

I know I said I was going to lurk at this discussion, but I really think this book would not be good for me to pursue.  I'll catch up with you all in one of the next book discussions.

Nancy

[bellamarie]

I have to come to the defense of Sarah, and the comments of her being a bad parent for allowing Charlie to wear the Batman outfit.  I have a granddaughter who is 5 yrs old and last year she was completely obsessed with watching the Wizard of Oz.  She wanted everything Dorothy.  I searched the internet and found her the most adorable Dorothy costume and she and her cousin who had to have one too, wore them every day at my day care, and they had to watch the movie at least three times a day.  We acted out the characters and they became the cutest little actresses you could ever imagine.  (Emma her cousin was very shy and I was amazed how she came out wearing that costume and taking on the role of Dorothy)They could recite every word and song of the movie and book I bought for my sweet little Hayden.  lolol  I thought it was the most adorable thing I had ever seen.  I video taped the two of them singing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" and their Mom & Dad were tickled pink.  Needless to say, Dorothy is no longer their obsession this year and the ruby slippers are no where to be found.  I have pictures of the two girls in their complete Dorothy outfits right down to me braiding their hair and the blue ribbons.  So I can truly see why Sarah and Andrew would allow Charlie play out his favorite character Batman.  My friend had a little guy who was so obsessed with Spiderman that everyone had to call him Peter Parker if they wanted him to respond.  He too has outgrown his hero character, and now responds to Sal. lol

I personally could never judge another mother/wife's actions upon the death of a husband.  I think Sarah describes it best, "My mind was set in that crystalline state that comes with lack of sleep."  also she says, "Actually I didn't know how I felt.  We don't have a grown-up language for grief.  My life had fallen apart."   We all react to death differently and so it would behoove me to criticize or expect actions from the person going through it.  I think Cleave did a wonderful job at capturing the true emotions.  Batman is Charlie's safe, fun place, why take that from him when he has lost his Daddy?  When he jumped in the grave I thought my heart was jumping out of my body.  How horribly sad, and I can only imagine Sarah being numb to not being able to react.  When I lost my Mom and stood at her grave knowing I would never see her again, I too wanted to open that casket and beg her to please come back. 

Thanks to all of you who helped me realize Little Bee had no other alternative than to contact Andrew.  I was struggling with Yevette and Little Bee's actions resulting in the suicide of no name and Andrew.  I was asking myself if it was the right thing for either of them to do without consideration of who they were also involving and how it would effect others.  No name and Andrew lived through so much trauma, and it seems they both lost that last strand of hope.  No name not knowing where her life would go after being released with no papers or caseworker and Andrew possibly revisiting the events of two years ago on the beach hearing from Little Bee was just too much for either of them.  Both their minds were in a fragile state, and they were coping or not coping with life in their own way, then along comes someone who causes them to have to shift gears and forced to deal with the change in routine without their knowledge or consent.  It was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back in their case.  I empathize with all of their situations and actions.

Ciao for now~

[deems 2]

We all look at the book through different lenses.  I am walking through this country of grief and so I see the story through that lens.  Grief, loss, pain, isolation.  Chaos.  Control.  What I have read and what I anticipate I will read of Little Bee’s story is horrific, no doubt, but I really don't see her as a victim.  She is just a person.  She is strong.  She is smart.  She is observant.  She is completely alone in the world and she is a changed creature, neither Nigerian nor English.  I am curious to hear what she will say next.  She speaks truth as she sees it and that is worth listening to.

Little Bee works through the mechanics of suicide in any given situation and I think this gives her a sense of control.  If the men come and she cannot escape, she can do something.  She has seen the men come and it may happen again.

Charlie seems to be doing the same thing with his Batman suit.  The suit gives him a sense of control in a world without control.  Children cannot control their world.  But in his suit, Charlie can kill the baddies.

Sarah is just a person too.  For some reason, she seems similar to Little Bee.  She isn't anything like Little Bee at all of course.  Sarah is an adult.  She is a successful editor of a magazine.  She lives in the English suburbs. 

Maybe it is only that sudden loss levels the playing field.  They are both more human than they are anything else.  Maybe it is that they are both creatures of words.

Sarah does not seem to have found her suicide plan or her Batman costume yet.

I think bellamarie is right.  Cleave is doing an excellent job capturing the various emotions of his characters.  I am appreciating his unflinching eye.

[Steph]

I find myself truly wondering why Sarah reacts calmly to LB, but her husband gave up and comitted suicide. Was LB the reason. I would assume from the books cover squib. That something horrible happened the first time they met.
Whatever does LB expect from the people she has met once. I would guess we will learn this. I must check as to the next number of pages..

[bellamarie]

Good morning, this book has truly stayed with me throughout my day and night and Steph I asked myself the same question, what did Little Bee expect of somewhat total strangers?  Was it just simple humanitarian.  We don't really know for certain how she had possession of Andrew's drivers license, other than they were all on the beach in Nigeria two years ago.  Why did she hold on to it for so long?  Little Bee is a survivor and her mind set for a 14 yr old and now a 16 yr old is far beyond her years.  I suppose fixating on the Queen would advance you along with whatever horrific things happened on the beach and in the center.  Why does she see herself and the Queen alike?  What did she mean when she mentioned the Queen knows about the men coming?  The more I think about the lines in this book, the more questions I find I have, and then those questions leave me with more questions.  Ok, off to start my day and hopefully Little Bee will not crowd my mind today.  I'm beginning to see her as a buzzing bee above my head......lolol  I do see her as a victim of circumstance, but truly a survivor with many skills.  Yes, suicide is Little Bee's constant plan of taking control of her own fate, should the men come.  How sad is that?

Ciao for now~

[Mippy]

Good morning ~
I've been reading all of the posts, and your insights are excellent.   The book is so sad that I have trouble participating right now.

[ALF43]

Gay- You asked how LB could feel "so fresh and new and bright" when she left the centre.  I think you answered your own question with this:

she had no idea of her future, only  her past?

With all of the horror she had faced thus far and nothing holding her back to forge ahead, she felt the freedom and joy of a new life- fresh and bright.

Aberlaine-- I am sorry that you don't feel comfortable with this story.  Thank you for stopping to let us know you didn't desert us.   We'll catch up in the next discussion.

Bellamarie- Early on LB tells us that she is only alive because she tried to learn the Queen's English; which was to say she needed t o leave her own dialect behind to survive.
 "Learning the Queen's English is like scrubbing off the bright red varnish from your toenails after a dance"