Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online

[ALF43]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

January Book Club Online  "Little Bee" by Chris Cleave Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined. In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion.

Facts: *Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960.  Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens. *Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world.  Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high.  There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse? *The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens  for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called,  to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing  numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense.

Reading Schedule

January 2,   Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9,   Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16,  Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31,  Conclusions  

Discussion Leaders:  Traude and Andy

Mippy- Oh dear, it does get better as we follow LBee  into her new life.  We would love to have you stay with us and explore her new world.

Deems 2-   Welcome to our discussion, Susan.  I have missed you and know that with your sensitive heart you can contribute much to our discussion. Who better than you can feel Little Bee's desolation and lonliness?
I love your synopsis of our main characters, Susan.  It is concise, articulate and compact.  (Your words remind me of someone else we both love.)

Sarah does not seem to have found her suicide plan or her Batman costume yet.

I still can not wrap my head around Sarah and that statement is spot on.

[Babi]

 Thank you, BOW BELLE.  That clears up that comment. Obviously there was nothing to be feared from the Liberal Democrats; they were too feeble!
 Re. Charlie and his Batman suit, it is obviously very important to him. It gives him a sense of strength and safety, I believe. Given what we know of the atmosphere of their home over the past two years, I suspect the Batman suit is a protection Charlie truly needs just now.

 
 (No,ALF, you didn't scare me off. I've just been under the weather the last two days.)

[straudetwo]

This is my first chance to come on line.  Sorry to be late.

Thank yo si much again for your posts.
Andy, yes. To breathe the fresh air of that spring morning, English air, no longer a captive, but free at last,  have been overwhelming for LB after staying in the Center. At the last moment she stopped, as if incredulous, and Yevette gave her a little push forward.

Deems 2, I agree. LB derives a sense of security and power from being prepared and ready to kill herself first, if the men came back and wherever that might be.  N, she does not consider herself a victim. But she is determined to get to Kingston-upon-Thames, come what may. And  she does. She had no one else in the world. It was her only hope.

Bellamarie, I don't think LB was presumptuous when she compared herself to the Queen. I'll go back and check it out. There are more interesting details in Chapter 3 regarding "your" language, like different meanings for the same words,  people's fascination with horror, which she cannot fathom.

More after supper. My grands are coming.
In haste,
Traude

[crescentwitch]

I work during the week so being able to be here with all of you is difficult. I am finishing the book, it is wonderful. I will not give anything away, I promise. See you all Fri, I am off, since I work 10 hr. days 4 days per week.

[ALF43]

wonderful Crescentwitch- we will be looking forward to your comments of Friday.
I used to love those 10 hour days on/off 3.  Of course in Nursing they can NOT help but ask for more, even when your feet are screaming!!  I don't miss that part of it.

Babi- are you alright?  The last I read you were going to enjoy little ones and dogs for the New Year.  What happened to you?
  I knew I didn't scare you off, you're tough!

Traude- I didn't feel as if she was presumptuous either.  We have to keep reminding ourselves time and again that she is a child.

[bookad]

I find it sadly ironic that the group in 'Winterhaven, Brownsville, Texas' discussed a 16 year olds situation at our December book club group: the book  'The Blue Notebook'-I believe the country was India....it was a sad unbelievable circumstance written by a doctor who though the book was fiction saw many circumstances that he felt he had to write .....and therefore the book
-----now again in this book....and I must assume that there are many  truths in the horror being written about
--what ugly truths there are about our world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ALF43]

Yes, bookad, that is unfortunately true.  We all live in our secure little world and shutter in disbelief when we read of these horrors.
The beauty of this story is that the author makes LittleBee strong, independent and hopeful. It makes one almost believe that there is a silver lining out there.

 

[bellamarie]

Traude....I need to clarify, I did not intend to give anyone the impression I saw Little Bee presumptuous when she compared herself to the Queen.  I was asking why did she choose the Queen and what did she mean when she says the Queen knows about the men coming.  I get a little confused with the comparisons she makes with the Queen.  I realize she has fixated herself on the Queen, my question is, why???  The Queen seems to be Little Bee's Batman.

Andy- Yes, Little Bee is indeed a child, but isn't it difficult to keep that in mind when  the author has made her far beyond her years.   I loved when Little Bee reflected back to the happy times of her childhood.  I think Little Bee showed her true age at the end of  the chapter  when she brings her older sister into her mind, there taking her into the Thames on the river.  I felt at that point and time Little Bee's reserve was low and needed the strenghth of her sister who obviously was always there for her.  Cleave sure does an amazing job of capturing the emotions of each of these characters.  It's all so sad and bittersweet......

bookad -What is even more ironic is the government trying to pretend it never happens.

Ciao for now~

[pedln]

Bellamarie, LB also makes reference to the Queen's English and compares it a bit unfavorably to her Nigerian English. And there was a difference.  She gives examples, and I wish I had the book to point them out. Does anyone remember that passage -- it was rather light and happy.

[straudetwo]

Bellamarie,

I just reread the first two chapters, Chapter 1 by LB and Chapter 2 by Sarah. Each is articulate in her own special way.  Cleave's has done an outstanading job, we all seem to agree on that.

Ella, thank you for the link o the immigration system.  In this country immigrant women are housed in separately, and that is true also for the prison system.

LB was put in with the adults. The trouble was there were men and women locked up in the same place. At night they kept the men in a different wing.  They caged hem like wolves when the sun went down, but in the daytime the men walked among us and ate the same food we did. They still looked hungry ... (page 6)

The older girls would whisper to her,  To survive you must look good or talk good ...  So to avoid drawing attention to herself, she made herself undesirable,  had her hair cut short by the Center's nurse, declined to wash, and wore shapeless clothes, e.g. a man's (!) Hawaiian shirt and heavy black boots with steel toe taps.

On her way out, LB took a last look at the security officer. He did not look up at her. I realized that I knew nothing about men apart from the fear. (page 18)

Sarah's narraive gives us data :
LB knocked on her door 5 days after Andrew's death, , 10 days after her release from the detention center after 2 years there, covering a distance of 5,000 miles.

Four pages into Chapter 2, Sarah says, I realized I would have to tell my son he whole story, someday.  OIt ws 2 years before, in the summer of 2005 that Andrew began his slow, long  slide into the depression that finally claimed him. It started on the day we first met Little Bee, on the beach in Nigeria. The only souvernir I have of that first meeting is an absence where my middle finger of my left hand used to be. The amputation is quite clean. In place of my finger is a stump, a phantom digit ... [/i] (pages 24-25)

Ella, Charlie was enrolled   in his nursery's Early Bird Club
(top of page 30)

That's all for tonight. I have an appointment in the morning and will be on line in the early afternoon.
Buona notte.
Traude

[rosemarykaye]

Hi all,

I have not deserted - just been down in Edinburgh house-hunting, and no internet there (I did try to access seniorslearn on my husband's i-phone and every time I put the www in it automatically reverted to a site for computer assistance that didn't even have a name like seniorslearn - don't know why.  Husband said someone had intercepted the site - but it seems to work ok now I am back.)

In a mad rush today as son leaves this pm for Switzerland and I have to work from 2pm, also get groceries if we really are going to get more snow  - but will try to return here this evening.  Not sure if you will really want to hear my comments as I find that I still can't really see this as a good book - good themes I know, but I find the writing irritating and unrealistic.  More later (maybe!)

Rosemary

[hats]

Excuse me for interrupting. I haven't been following the discussion. I did read the book much earlier in 2010. I totally loved this book. The African girl's story is powerfully unique in scope. Chris Cleave's  Little Bee is "my" story in some way. I could say so much about this novel. I did write a tiny review. I wanted Chris Cleave to know his story had impacted me in no small way. He wanted no spoilers. I understood.

Points that impacted me

1. Little Bee without papers
2.The finger
3. The suicide of the husband and the reason why
4. The end in every way possible impacted my heart.
5. The powerful love throughout the book
6. The need to be needed
7. The need to have love freely given

Thank you to Chris Cleave's Little Bee. The novel made my life more whole. The novel broke my heart. It's impossible to read without tears.

[bellamarie]

Good morning all,   Rosemary I await anxiously to hear your comments.  I find myself struggling with some parts that leave me wondering about how realistic some of these parts are.  I keep settling on this favorite phrase my friendship group always says when we all go to the movies and I question parts afterwards, my friend Rick started it by saying, "It's only a movie Marie."  I laughed silly when he said it and now it seems to come out at least one time every time the six of us go to the movies.  I used to be able to read fiction and  not question it so much, but since I joined SeniorLearn and we delve so deeply into every book we discuss, I find I can't read lightly anymore.  Or maybe I am just growing up and maturing with my reads and want and expect more from the story and author.  Anyway......enough of that,  lol

I have not read much ahead so I am certain much more is to be revealed and will satisfy my questions.

hats- Hello it is so good to see you once again, I would welcome your insight since you say Little Bee's story is much like yours.  You bring out the power of love in the book, that's so interesting since I suppose early on I am not feeling it so much.  Sarah and Andrew's relationship seems a bit distant to me, and not that they appear to be bad parents, but I do see the both of them as busy with their jobs and not much time for Charlie.  While Little Bee's relationship seems endearing with her older sister I feel the author has broken that relationship from us by the separation of them.  Imagine how her sister must have felt realizing Little Bee was released without warning or preparation to say good-bye.  You have piqued my interest on your points that impacted you.  It gives me hope  for thiese characters.  I agree, you could not possibly read this book without tears.  I am going to go ahead and read the next  couple of chapters since I need more information to help me with some of my bewilderment.  I promise not to divulge.

Ciao for now~

[Babi]

 HATS!!! So good to hear from you! I've missed you.
 
 MARIE, (may I call you that? I see your friends use that instead of Bella) I drive my daughters nuts criticizing actions/decisions in the TV shows. It's amazing how much derring-do would be cut if the protaqonists used a little common sense, but then that would lose the whole point of the show, wouldn't it? 
  On Little Bee, there is no mention of her sister being in the detention center. They were separated earlier; we don't yet know how/why?

  A number of you posted about Yvette. The thing she said that made the biggest impression on me was, when Little Bee spoke of the past as ‘another lifetime’, Yevette replied: “Yu only be livin one life darlin. Don’t matter you don’t uh-preshie-ate  part of it, cos it don’t stop bein part of yu.”

[Steph]

 Ithink from the LB and the foreshadowing, that something horrible happened to her sister.. and I think it was back in Africa..
I think like some others here that the author is writing Little Bee as quite a bit older than 14 and 16..  So I find it hard to think of her as a child.  Sara is such a blank for me in these first few chapters. I must somehow tuck into the next group to see what is happening. I am also reading my FtF book, so it is somewhat confusing.. The Best thing I am reading is What I eat.. Was a Christmas present and I just love it.

[hats]

Hi Babi,

I've missed you too. Thank you.

[hats]

I don't have a hard time believing Little Bee is fourteen. Yes, she comes across as very mature. I believe this is because she has led a very hard life. Our children, American children, are given the freedom to become adults only at the proper time. Across the sea in Africa "children" carry guns. Children escape alone without an adult to America, the Home of the Free. You have to act very mature to always have running in your head and heart like Little Bee. The other three girls seem to respond to her maturity with their personal maturity.

Sorry, I don't have a book in front of me.

[pedln]

Hats, it is so good to see you here.  Thank you for listing the points that impacted you, and I do hope that at some time you wll share your review with us.

Our children, American children, are given the freedom to become adults only at the proper time. Across the sea in Africa "children" carry guns. Children escape alone without an adult to America, the Home of the Free.

   Hats

A good point.  These children do what they have to do. Their only option is to survive.

[bellamarie]

Babi- Yes indeed you may call me Marie and so may everyone else for that matter.  Thank you for pointing out that there was no mention of the older sister Nkiruka was in the detention center.  I suppose I assumed that.  Gosh I feel like I keep missing so much in these first three chapters.  

Hats- Yes, Little Bee does come over so much older if you noticed she refers to herself as a woman.  "Me, I was a woman under white florescent strip lights, in an underground room in an immigration detention center forty miles east of London...... The African girl they locked up in the immigration center, poor child, she never really escaped.  In my soul she is still locked up in there, forever, under the florescent lights, curled up on the green linoleum floor with her knees tucked up under her chin.  And this woman they released from the immigration detention center, she is a new breed of human.  There is nothing natural about me.  I was born-no, I was reborn-in captivity."

Now I am sensing from reading Steph's post that possibly her older sister is dead and she keeps her alive and draws from her for strength to help her survive.  I could be way off base.  Back to read some more.  You ladies sure have my mind going a mile a minute.....lolol

Ciao for now~

[Steph]

O h me, I started reading again and now have decided I will withdraw from the discussion.The violence is more than I can deal with and I am afraid, I will have nightmares as it is..
But my last shot is that Sarah is beyond stupid.. Not to even check in Africa of all places.. And then to wander off the hotel.. The whole premise is beyond belief. but the violence is not something I can deal with. Maybe next year.

[Ella Gibbons]

HATS, it's good to see you here, we have missed you.  And I loved this book also, I had read it previously when a neighbor loaned it to me, but am skimming it again.

You are so right!  A 14-year old girl that makes the decision to stow away on a ship - leave her country - all the past that she has ever known - is frightened out of her mind - that is no childish thing!

STEPH, so sorry you are withdrawing.  I agree Sarah is beyond believable; to allow a child to make decisions as to what he will wear and not to answer when spoken to???  I am keeping within the limits of the first three chapters so perhaps more will be explained.

Every so often Cleave makes a statement that resonates with me as when Sarah is thinking of BBC News, the war in Iraq, and she observes that at first it was a huge shock and one watched the news constantly and then you take your eyes off it for extended periods of time.

Yes, we forget there is a war and our young men are dying overseas.  We forget it for extended periods of time as the author states.

[straudetwo]

HATS, what a pleasure it is to see you Welcome back!
I cannot tell you how much it means to see you here.  I've often thought of the glory days in WREX
and wondered whether our cyber paths would ever cross again. And now they have, true to the old saw "Hill and dal won't get together, but people do."

I just came home from running errands; I made more than planned because another snowstorm is in the forecast, and traffic will be bogged down. But I'm tired now and will reflect on today's posts before I respond.  Many thanks
Traude

[hats]

Hi Pedln, Bella and All,

It's good to "see" old and unforgettable friends again. I am going to have the book in hand again by Saturday. I need to have my mind refreshened. I remember so much happening on the beach. I don't remember feeling negatively impacted by the violence. I just wanted to know how the story would turn out. A couple with a little boy from a totally different world meet Little Bee. The serendipitous fact that they would meet again under different circumstances but really a follow up to the same circumstances. That a woman could become so brave, so strong, so full of sacrificial love that she would give part of herself, her finger, to save someone else. Her husband couldn't do it. This fact haunted him. He must have been fed the myth that men are always stronger than women. Not true. My mother had cancer. My sister, now gone, talked to the doctors, waited for mom to come out of surgery and looked at an open wound in my mother's chest. Then, she proved strong enough to look my mother in the eye without blinking to say, "It's not that bad. Everything is going to be alright." My dad loved my mom, but he couldn't go to that painful place with her.

[hats]

Traude,

What a happy surprise, I often think back too.

[hats]

Hello Ella,

Glad to hear from you. I will just send out one big hello to everybody here. There is no one I didn't miss. Now I won't interrupt the "magic" as Ginny would say. I don't want to interrupt the book discussion. You are all good friends.

[Mippy]

Hats ~ How great to see you posting here!   Let me add my welcome to that of everyone else!

I won't drop out, yet, but this book is quite upsetting!  Moreover, I agree some of the premises are peculiar.  I'll keep reading the posts, and I'll join in whenever I can.   I'm not sure this type of book is "what the doctor ordered" for me at this time.

[rosemarykaye]

I zipped through the first two chapters of the book in a coffee break this morning (I have read it before).

My feelings about it are these:  the chapters written by Little Bee are touching, but for me they just don't sound right.  I find it hard to believe that a child/woman who has been through so much has time to look up at the ceiling and wonder what is written there.  Nothing is written there, and Cleave, IMO, is just using this bit to put in something that he had probably already written and thought sounded poetic - he does it again with the bit about the girl's eyes looking like boiled sweets that have been sucked - to me that just screams "I have been on a creative writing course and I am going to get this in somehow".  Little Bee is a sensible, down to earth sort of person, then she comes out with twaddle every so often just to accommodate Cleave's "literary" flourishes.  I feel that he does this too much.  The publisher's bit at the front of the book reads to me like pretentious nonsense, but maybe that is just my over-exercised British cynicism 

My greatest objection to the book is the plot, and I can't go on about that without giving things away, but even at this stage I find Sarah unconvincing, and Charlie even more so.  My own father died suddenly when I was eight years old, and even at that age - ie 4 years older than Charlie - I can clearly remember that I wasn't really that upset.  i know that sounds terrible, but I am trying to be honest, and my main feeling was that I didn't want my mother to be upset, and I wanted life to go on as normal - I especially didn't want to be singled out or pitied at school.  I find it hard to believe in Charlie's reactions - I feel he behaves more like a teenager, with their very raw emotions and sensitivities. 

I don't want to sound as if I am belittling the issues raised here - terrible things go on in Nigeria and in the UK, and it is essential that these are brought to the attention of the general public.  I do think that the scenes inside the detention centre are good, and I agree wholeheartedly that the portrait of the Jamaican girl is brilliant - her speech is spot on and her character is very well drawn - you do feel that you know her, whereas even at the end of the book i still found Sarah very "cardboard" and Charlie plain ridiculous (and I have had a 4 year old boy who was obsessed with Power Rangers). The scene in which the girls are trying to call a taxi is very convincing - the reaction of the first taxi company - "you people are scum" is, I am afraid, all too typical of a vast swathe of the Great British public.  I mentioned earlier that we have a large and growing Polish population here - as a result many of the supermarkets have started having Polish food sections - a woman I know told me she was "fed up " with this - "why do we want their food here?" - and again, I'm afraid this sums up the attitude of many uneducated people in this country (in fact I understand that most of the Poles who have come here are much better educated than most of us).  So Cleave has got that bit right.

Will try to catch up with the third chapter tonight - my library copy doesn't seem to have the same page numbers as yours, so I will just go by the chapter numbers.

Apologies for sounding negative!

Rosemary

[bellamarie]

Rosemarykaye- Thank you for sharing your feelings, I too found myself in a struggle with some inconsistencies with Little Bee's character.  For me I feel as my friends would say, "It's just a fictional book."  I feel we have to allow the author the right to excercize his creative talents, and he truly is with Little Bee's character.  I can't understand why she is fixated on the Queen.  I haven't read far enough into the book to feel harsh or negative, but I can appreciate your feelings.  I'm finding it a bit hard to understand why so many have a problem with Charlie.  Why is he unbelievable?  Sarah, yes I can agree with you that she has come over as a bit unfeeling, but then I was giving consideration to the fact she has gone through something horrific on the beach and lost her husband unexpectedly.  My day proved to be very taxing with the day care children, so I was not able to read any further.  I hope to find a few quiet hours tonight before I doze off in my snuggly chair which I seem to be doing more often these cold wintry nights.

Ciao for now~   

[ALF43]

RoseMary-- There you are. Did you have to hunker down with additional snow where you are?
 I think that we all agree there are many inconsistencies in these first 3 chapters but the story will begin to unfold as we slowly progress to our next reading on Sunday. However,  I do agree with your evaluation of Sarah but as Bella has done I too have ignored her attitude based on the fact that she not only finds her self a recent widow but she functions best as a "corporate" involved female.  I'm sure we will see her warm up a bit.

Mippy & Steph-I am sorry that these chapters have disquieted you both. As disconcerting as these things are, do not be troubled, Little Bee will survive in spite of her burdens.

Hats- Good gracious where have you been?  It is so good to see you back posting on our boards once again.  You are not interrupting, not in the least!
Please feel free to state whatever you would like to say.

The African girl's story is powerfully unique in scope. Chris Cleave's  Little Bee is "my" story in some way.

In what way is LBee your story?  Are you comfortable enough to share that with us?  It is good that you will be able to get your book back this weekend so that you can read chapters four and five with us.  I know how difficult it is not to give any "spoilers" when you don't have the book to refer to in hand.  You and Pedln have stated a veritable position in regards to our teenagers here.

[straudetwo]

Rosemary, no apologies needed!   In our discussions, we have always expressed our thoughts, impressions and opinions freely but amicably and never looked for consensus. And we make sure to listen to each other - which is not always easy in this noisy world of words.
And listening to a different interpretation or perspective can be enriching.

In fact, it is my personal opinion that not liking a given book, or a character, does not necessarily preclude a productive discussion, quite the opposite can be true,  and I have experienced just that, more than once.

The page numbers are not the same, of course, because they are in the American edition of the book, which was given a new title and contains no Anglicisms (colour; honour; globalisation).  
I believe the urgent admonition to readers to keep "mum" about the developments is unusual and wonder whether you had the same "injunction" in England when "The Other Hand" came out in 2008. Does your book cover mention it?

As for the violence.  Sad to say, we are exposed to violence and brutality every single day wherever we live - stabbings; shootings; babies shaken to death by a parent; a very recent school shooting; a 10-year old in rural Ohio, who kept a rack of loaded guns in his room, shooting his mother to death because he didn't want to carry in firewood. What kind of society are we becoming ?

I too have expressed reservations about Sarah earlier, but I'm willing to read on, slowly, until at least part of the story is told, what exactly happened on the beach.
The batman connection seemed odd to me, a little dated.  It may have been necessary for the plot.  Yet so  far I believe that LB's journey is the plot.  

I still believe what I said in the very beginning,  that this is a story for our time and of our times.  Even though are bound to be countless similar ones, it has never been told like this before.  
Is it realistic ? Marie asked.  
I'm not sure about the word.  For example, are reality shows realistic ? I couldn't answer that because I've never watched one.  

So is it possible? Absolutely. The growing numbers of asylum seekers from Africa or Sri Lanka speak for themselves.  And they are not all men.

LB arrived in England alone. Nkirura was not with her.
Charlie was not along on the trip to Nigeria in 200.
Sarah had received a promotional offer at the magazine and persuaded Andrew to take the trip, for it might salvage the faltering marriage.  That is a tenuous strand in the plot.  As a columnist at the Times Andrew would have had knowledge  about the dangers in the country.

HATS, I feel very much like you about the book and LB. I like the compilation you made. A good idea. Will try to emulate, if you don't mind, with Chapter 3.
More tomorrow.

[straudetwo]

As I checked my post for typos, I saw Andy's and Marie's post.   

I need an earlier night than I had yesterday and will be here after a morning appointment.
So long

[Mippy]

Thanks, Andy!   I plan to pick up the book again this weekend...  I do not give up easily!    

[ursamajor]

I read the complete book just before we began, and although I have checked out another copy I have not been able to make myself look at it again.  For one thing, it is difficult to comment on the early chapters when you know what is in the subsequent chapters.  I found myself profoundly sympathetic toward Little Bee although I found her character rather contrived.  I had no sympathy at all for Sarah.  Yes, she had been widowed but she was carrying on an extramarital affair.  Charlie just gave me a pain.

Ii know such evil as Little Bee experienced exists in the world but I don't want to dwell on it.  I decided a long time ago not to obsess over things beyond my control.

[Babi]

 HATS is right. Little Bee has learned to be wary, careful of all she says and does. The average 16-yr old would seem very naive and childish to her. It takes some adjustment to see her coping with adults on an equal basis, but it is  probably key to her survival.
  ALF, ordinarily I would agree with you about Sarah's handling of Charlie,
but in his case I think there is more involved. I believe the costume gives
him a sense of security and power that he badly needs. We all know how
sensitive a child can be about what is going on around him, even if he doesn't understand it. If Charlies can find a sense of safety and security, I believe the batman costume and 'closed ears' will disappear.

 You may be right, ROSEMARY, that Cleave occasionally uses Little Bee to
"accommodate Cleave's 'literary' flourishes". I've come across one or two that had me lifting an eyebrow.  But Little Bee is more than 'sensible', IMO. She is someone who has grown up the hard way. Moreover, she was smart enough to use her time in detention to prepare herself for survival in England. We simply can't expect her to fit into the usual '16-yr. old' mold.
  In defense of Cleave, tho', some of his flourishes are quite appealing.
“…warm sunshine dripping through the holes between the clouds, like the sky was a broken blue bowl and a child was trying to keep honey in it.”

[pedln]

Re:  Charlie and the Batman costume

I have to defend Sarah here.  Who was it who said something like, "You pick your battles."  We've all been there.  My mother bugged me about my hair until after I was married.  As far as I was concerned, my kids could do whatever they wanted with their hair.  You don't want to fight with your kids over everything.  Charlie would become more than just upset when he couldn't be Batman.  And now he has to deal with his father -- who is in heaven -- WHERE?  And why can't he come back.  I don't blame Sarah one bit for letting him be the power man he wants to be.

[deems 2]

I love it when people disagree.  Yes!  A fight!  Woohoo!  Fight on Rosemary.

I am neutral about Sarah.  I really don't know her well enough yet to form any kind of opinion about her or her actions.  Perhaps this is a failing of Cleave's.  Perhaps not.  I have only seen her on the day of the funeral of her husband.  A day that she is likely to be outside of herself.

I don't have the issues that you have with Charlie.  I think that most people are strange (myself included).  And I think that four year olds can be from different planets entirely.  A friend of mine has three children.  One is more than a handful - like my friend.  The second is a different kind of handful - much like her husband.  And the third is this imp that came from nowhere.  If she wasn't the twin of the second child, they would think that she had just dropped in from outer-space.

As for Little Bee, I don't know.  Maybe Cleave is overwriting at times.  But it seems to me that here you have a child-person who has nothing.  She has no family and no country and no things.  She becomes an adult in the detention center where you scramble to get clothes when they become available.  I have no sense that she has any friends in the detention center.  She spends the time learning English and avoiding being noticed.  But she is still a child and she is still alive.  So she plays inside her mind.  She doesn't think that something is written on the ceiling, but why not look.  I do this kind of thing all the time.  I look at what you are looking at just to see what you are seeing.  (That takes me back to "most people are strange, myself in particular".)  The thing that struck me as odd about that line of women at the phone was how calm everyone appeared to be.

I want a snuggly chair, Bellamarie.

[nolvikarn]

Thanks for letting me in.
I have some things that I would like to comment.
First the authors languish handling. I mean the alteration between the foreign, uneducated, peasant girls way of talking and understanding or misunderstanding. Just because she is confronted with an absolutely unknowing and even terrifying world. Everything is here written in a simplified English (brilliant). Easy to understand for an foreigner!
When it comes to Sarah it's written in a sort of matter of fact way. Filled with modern expressions and a vocabulary used by the upper middle class. So sophisticated that it makes one understand the gap between two different worlds.
This was the first thing that hit me.

And I am not surprised that Little Bee turned to Andrew and Sarah.

     •     What else could she do???
     •     She is a stranger in a strange, hostile country!
     •     She is an alone teenager never been outside her own village!


Andrew and Sarah are the only people outside this small world of hers, whom have ever showed some kind of kindness!
But I do love her and I sympathize with Sarah's attempt to do something out of the glossy magazine world.

Till next time,
olle
The Spell Check wants to change Olle to Ollie (like Oliver Hardy). Both nick names come from the Latin word Oliver/Olaus. Once in London i was adressed Laurence Olivier for Lars-Olof. It could be worse! Ollie is OK!

[ALF43]

Pedln- I hear you about "picking your battles" and agree wholeheartedly.  As mothers, we've all done that, haven't we?  However, it appears to me that Sarah is camouflaging her responsibilities in the same way that Charlie is hiding in his power suit.
Babi feels this gives him safety and security, as well.  Although Sarah is conscientious, dutiful and effective as the editor of her magazine I feel that she has an inherent responsibility to help Charlie through this unstable time.  She allows the "batman suit" to wrap around Charlie and give him the comfort and security he needs, rather than enveloping him in maternal concern.
Olle- (welcome back)- makes a valid point.  Sarah is upper class, sophisticated and matter of fact.  Perhaps that is just her manner and approach to life.  God knows, we all have a different approach, as Deemstwo has stated.

URSA-

"I decided a long time ago not to obsess over things beyond my control."  

Hang in there, Little Bee will hold our hands as we see her through this adventure.  Mippy's in the wings as well.

I shall return after dinner with a thought.  Traude will be in shortly.
Olle- It is a pleasure to have Sir Laurence with us today.

 

[straudetwo]

Signing in late. Waiting at the doctor's was longer than usual, but I had our book with me.
Since coming home I read all the recent posts.

First a second  special Hello to Olle. Thanks again for joining our discussion.  And, incidentally, my computer and the eager-beaver spell checker had no problems with your name at all  

Bellamarie, with your say-so,  I'd like to continue calling you by that name because  IMHO it personifies you and your Italian heritage so much better than 'Bella' or 'Marie'. Do I hope for an okay.

I'm grateful that Andy is here with us. Her personality and no-nonsense-approach is just what we need in an emotion-laden book like this one.

Ursamajor,  I could not agree more with your # 192, and I also understand Aberlaine, Mippy and Steph.

Deems 2,  neutral is exactly what I try to be, especially in the beginning of any discussion.  It's MHO that one shouldn't praise nor condemn too. too soon. And yes, some parts of the book seem to be overwritten --- an indication, perhaps,  of the author's ardent passion, conviction and desire to help.

More tomorrow

[ALF43]

Deemstwo-says:

The thing that struck me as odd about that line of women at the phone was how calm everyone appeared to be.

Susan, I'm not sure that they were calm as much as detached.
The Jamaican woman had guts and guile and had to  present herself with assurance and false bravado.  None of the others could assist her in talking their way out of there.  The one pretty girl in the yellow sari dress spoke no English so she couldn't help and was just around for the ride "out of dodge."
 The third girl had all of her story written down in red ink, but she was not a talker.  Therefore, it ultimately fell on LBee to relate the information necessary to hail the cab.

Everyone is fighting the baddies, aren't they?  LBee, the ladies that left the detention centre with her, Andrew and Charlie.  It seems as if Sarah is the only one who isn't bereft and frightened.  

There are so many sentences I would love to repeat i.e. "For me and the girls from my village, horror is a disease and we are sick with it."
A disease- few words but so profound and repulsive, is it not?