Author Topic: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1  (Read 87544 times)

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #240 on: April 19, 2011, 04:12:21 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.


Major Pettigrew's Last Stand  by Helen Simonson

April Book Club Online  

"When Major Pettigrew, a retired British army major in a small English village, embarks on an unexpected friendship with the widowed Mrs. Ali, who runs the local shop, trouble erupts to disturb the bucolic serenity of the village and of the Major’s carefully regimented life.
 
"As the Major and Mrs. Ali discover just how much they have in common, including an educated background and a shared love of books, they must struggle to understand what it means to belong and how far the obligations of family and tradition can be set aside for personal freedom. Meanwhile, the village itself, lost in its petty prejudices and traditions, may not see its own destruction coming."  New York Times   (best seller)

"...a wry and witty love story set in a little English village where small town prejudices, and race and religious intolerances are alive and well. With gentle insight, the author captures the thrill of falling in love after 60 and the disruption romance can introduce into a well-settled life."

Discussion Schedule:

April 1-7 ~ Chapters 1-6]
April 8 - 15 ~ Chapters 7-12
April 16 - 24 ~ Chapters 13-17
(E-readers ~ Last lines in Chapter 17:
 ..."She hurried down the driveway, and as she disappeared, blue dress into deep night, he knew he was a fool. Yeat at that moment, he could not find a way to be a different man."
*****
For Consideration
April 16-24 ~ Chapters 13-17

1.  "When we pick and choose around the rules, we discover later we have  set aside something precious in the process."  Do you remember who said this?  The Major?  Sandy?  Abdul Wahid?  Mrs. Ali?

2.  How do you score on first impressions?  Has your first impression of Sandy changed?   Perhaps she herself has changed?  Do you see a future for Sandy and Roger?

3.  Can you tell how long the relationship between Roger and the Major has been strained or what caused it?   How does Abdul Wahid's relationship with his father differ?  

4. What does the shop represent to Mrs. Ali?   When she offers the shop to her nephew is she giving away more than the  financial investment?

5.  Did the duck hunt on Lord  Dagenham's estate fulfill the Major's expectations?  Did Roger's presence spoil his dream of showing off the Churchills?

6.  Had the Major expected that Ferguson was going to "pillage the village"  with his drastic redevelopment of St. Mary Edgecombe? Why is the Major the key to the success of the village makeover?  

7.  What is Ferguson's real interest in the Churchills?

8.  Was Mrs. Ali's ravishing appearance at the ball something out of a fairy tale?  What were your most vivid memories of the evening - before the ensuing melee?  

 9.  What was the cause of Mr. Rasool's outburst that led to the bruhaha abruptly ending the entertainment?

10..  What stopped the Major from running down the driveway to take  Mrs. Ali home?
  




  
 Discussion Leaders:  Barbara & JoanP


Steph

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #241 on: April 20, 2011, 06:40:40 AM »
To Ginny,, All of a sudden, I have a white box below.. Amazon.
The book and the guns.. I too think that once the Major got the gun and then was so horrified at how it looked, they no longer knows what to think. I dont think it occurred to him that his brother did not treasure his gun the way the Major did.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #242 on: April 20, 2011, 11:59:50 AM »
Steph it is interesting isn't it to learn that our siblings treasure in life different things and experiences than we treasure - I have two sisters and there is a bit we have in common - more with my younger sister, who is 15  years younger than with the sister that is closest to me in age. I see that in my own children as well - interesting, since I keep coming back to the fact we were all brought  up in the same home with the same parents - makes you wonder just how much influence in our lives is our home and parents.

And then, there is the whole thing of desiring to hang onto reminders of certain memories of home that others in the family also want to keep close -  for our family it is all my mother's photos - you would think the sister who ahum 'grabbed' them would share by uploading them but it seems to be a source of special connection that the ownership of the photos represents. ah so... sad though...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #243 on: April 20, 2011, 12:08:35 PM »
Been wondering if where any of  you live there had been a new high dollar subdivision development planned or built and how it affected the rest of the community? Or like here in the Austin area - it would be more like - so what else is new - we keep growing and growing with more and more ranch land and small communities being gobbled up in the growth and some of the closer in land holdings are developed into high dollar neighborhoods - For many of us it is the displacement of wildlife that is part of the thinking many new to Austin bring with them and is causing more friction with those who have lived in Austin most or all of their lives. What about where you live?  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #244 on: April 20, 2011, 01:31:49 PM »
Barb, I haven't paid much attention recently to the real estate market here in the Harrisburg, PA area, but they were going nuts a few years back with expensive sub-divisions. I just kept wondering who all these people are that can afford something like that and where they are coming from. A lot of the business expansion around here has been in medical or warehousing. There is a small (so far) community of $1M+ up the road a few miles from me. What really gets my goat is that the land is rather steep, on the south side of part of the Blue Mountain ridge. I consider it part of the watershed for our area and don't like seeing it planted in houses.

maryz

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #245 on: April 20, 2011, 01:41:41 PM »
Barb, interesting what you say about siblings being so different, being raised in the same home by the same parents.  But, actually, speaking from my own experience as a parent with 4 daughters in 5 years, each one was born into a different family.  We were certainly different as parents with each one.  I'd like to believe that we matured and had hopefully learned something from each child, and from the experience of having one, then two, then three, then four children.  And I'd think the greater the age differences, the greater the differences in parenting and family dynamics.

I've often heard, and found it true in our experience, that oldest siblings in different families will have more in common, even if they aren't the same age, etc.  Interesting stuff!
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

salan

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #246 on: April 20, 2011, 06:40:28 PM »
Ginny and Barb,  Your comments on siblings reminded me of a book I read about how the birth order affects your characteristics.  I can't remember the name of the book, but it was very interesting and somewhat true in my own experience.  I had 3 sisters--two older, and one younger.  There were 14 years difference between the oldest and youngest.  After both of our parents died, we all met at the house and spent a week --laughing, crying, remembering and clearing everything out and getting the house ready to sell.  The will left everything to us equally.  I am so fortunate that my sisters and I are very close, and more concerned with relationships than "things".  We decided we would put the things we all wanted in one of the bedrooms. The rest of the things were taken by whoever wanted them or left for the estate sale.  Then we drew numbers and set about "picking" the items that we all wanted.  We had agreed ahead of time that all the old photos should stay together and the person who got them would make copies for all of us, as that was the main thing that we all wanted.  It worked out quite well, and my sister who got the photos made copies for the rest of us. 
Sally 

salan

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #247 on: April 21, 2011, 07:42:38 AM »
There were several comments, "quotes" in chapters 16 & 17 that I thought were quite good.  In chapt. 16--people didn't recognize Mrs. Ali out of her element.  Oh my,  how many times have you run into someone that you recognized, but couldn't quite "place" them because they were out of their element??
      In chapter 17 HS states, "People who were alone & ignored often appeared less attractive than when surrounded by admiring companions."
 

salan

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #248 on: April 21, 2011, 07:49:23 AM »
Uh oh, I accidentally hit the wrong button and posted before I was through commenting. 
     At the end of chap. 17 after the party disaster when the major let Mrs. Ali go he knew he was a fool.  Yet at that moment, he could not find a way to be a different man. 
     There's another description that I thought was quite good.  I wrote the quote down, but forgot to reference where I found it, but I think it was around chapt. 16 or 17:   The major states, "None of these thoughts was the least usuable.  The major was mentally a hooked carp, its mouth opening and closing on the useless oxygen."  Don't you just love that image???  I do love HS way with words.
Sally

pedln

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #249 on: April 21, 2011, 11:56:25 AM »
Quote
Oh my,  how many times have you run into someone that you recognized, but couldn't quite "place" them because they were out of their element??


Sally, I'm totally off topic here, but your comment just triggered something.  I remember an early-bird (5 -7 am) swimmer blushing and telling how words just popped out of her mouth -- while standing in the supermarket lane, for all the world to hear --"Oh Dr W, I didn't recognize you with clothes on."

FlaJean

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #250 on: April 21, 2011, 11:57:42 AM »
Just got my copy from the library a couple of days ago.  Once I started reading I couldn't stop and had to finish.  :)  I've been reading all the interesting comments.  Will just add one thing--I can understand the old man being upset at the themed portrayal, but why was he brought?  Surely Mrs. Rasool knew about the theme and her father (or father in law, not sure which) would be upset.

CallieOK

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #251 on: April 21, 2011, 12:23:52 PM »
Two observations from Chapter 13:

Quoting Sandy, "Roger doesn't like to talk about religion...no religion, no politics, sex only through innuendo - it's no wonder you British obsess about the weather..."

I remember being on a trip in France when the group was told it is impolite to ask a French person about their work, family, home, (most of the things we would use as conversation starters) - but perfectly all right to discuss politics and religion.
I don't remember sex being mentioned but I do remember how startled and uncomfortable one cute tour guide became when a sweet older lady in our group asked if she had a boyfriend.  Our main tour guide softly told the young guide that Americans don't think this is rude.  She covered nicely by saying "My heart is already taken."

In a later part of the same conversation, when Roger is going on and on about putting off marriage and how the "working class and foreigners" are "totally oblivious about birth control and things" and how he and Sandy might be ready in six months to "at least buy a place together",  there are two tell-tale statements about Sandy.

"Sandy paid close attention to her wineglass and said nothing".   and
"Sandy drained her wineglass and said nothing."

Hmmm...a hint of things to come?  

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #252 on: April 21, 2011, 01:57:03 PM »
Well we are finishing up the third week of our reading and it reminds me of climbing steps to a high diving board - the first two weeks we were climbing the steps observing the landscape the pool is set in - and now this week it seems we are on the diving board bouncing with the issues that will change when next week we dive and plunge into the pool of new feelings and values for our characters.

Callie that was a great bit to remind us of the differences between Roger and Sandy - that Roger does not seem to have a clue that Sandy would have a different idea for the outcome of their relationship. Sandy seems smart and knowing and hated to see her hurt - Sandy defiantly is one of the successful 'new' business women and with Roger taking to protecting the right of ownership for the Churchill and taking pride in portraying his grandfather he may be staying with a more traditional outlook on life where men expected to make the decisions.

FlaJean - I am smiling because I can  just imagine you glued to the pages sitting in your chair with the lamp on day and night - not even taking time out for a sip of coffee but letting it grow cold. I just know you are enjoying yourself. Oh yes, and calculating advanced reactions - often when a childhood memory hits it is because of other stimulations so that the same reaction would not take place at all times - it could be the raucous dance was closer to the raucous crowds on that fateful day providing an additional stimulant than simply sharing his memory with family over a cup of tea - All anger is - is a cover for hurt and fear and so there must have been a lot of covered hurt and fear that the nature of the evening touched just like a returning vet will sometimes react and other times there is no expression of panic or rage.  

Pedln - oh my - we know you turned red how about the Doctor did he smile...

Salan - great quotes but the last to me is so poignant -
Quote
when the major let Mrs. Ali go he knew he was a fool.  Yet at that moment, he could not find a way to be a different man
.  I can just feel how frozen he was perched on those steps wishing time would stand still - that he could not step forward into a new day with all the new values attached and yet, his attachment to the past and all his friends was no longer as deep and satisfying so that all he could do is mumble something about guns.

And you and  your sisters  were a dream example of how we would all like it to be - you are fortunate and I am so pleased to know there really are folks in this world who can love and support each other with fairness and caring.

Maryz - interesting point of view that each child really has a different set of parents - I have heard that theory - I just think that school, teachers, and friends have more influence than we give them credit because I can see some difference coming about because of parents maturing in their job but some families the children as adults are so different it boggles the mind.

One of my favorite programs that I think are all re-runs now and I did not see the show when it was first featured is the show called 'Brothers and Sisters' with Sally Fields as the matriarch. Love that it has just about every dynamic for today represented by these grown children - there does seem to be a common thread of support and way of out-and-out stating their opinion that they all share that seems to be a family characteristic. But agree the show also shows each grown child with a different political view and they each approach life's difficulties with their own unique personality.

Frybabe  have you noticed the age range of those in the upscale high dollar newly built homes - they seem all to be under the age of 45 - I am convinced that the social media is getting more wealth building to happen than all the knowing-this-one-or-that-one that was the 'insider' consideration for success among the older generations. Just about everyone I talk with says how these upscale million dollar homes are filling up this or that corner of their area. Then with their influx in comes another group of stores that cater to that  income bracket - some that make a nice difference in our living and I am sure the city fathers are delighted with the higher property tax filling up the holes in the city's budget. No black or white in any of this is there.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

CallieOK

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #253 on: April 21, 2011, 03:04:40 PM »
I think the Major "steps into the unknown" more easily when he doesn't stop to think about his actions.  Mrs. Ali is usually the reason for this.
For instance, when he suggested that Abdul Wahid stay with him for a few days..."The Major surprised himself with the offer, which seemed to emerge of its own accord."

When Mrs. Ali hesitates about going into the dance and he has sponstaneously made some dryly humorous comments..."He stopped, feeling that these were stupid ways to encourage her."

Barb,   I also like "Brothers and Sisters" - and I think there are 2 or 3 more episodes before the season finale.  "The plot is thickening" and I suspect we'll be left with a cliff hanger - as usual.

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #254 on: April 21, 2011, 06:47:53 PM »
It's been quite a hectic, though wonderful week around here - son visiting from London, another son visiting this week with four little ones ages 4-9  - - and an exciting last evening when the Washington Capitals managed to stay alive in the last of their series with the NY Rangers!   For those of you who don't know - this is the local hockey team.  They practice here in Arlington - of course we went over to see them practice this week and  grandson got an autograph. There is an adjacent rink to where the pros play - open to the public.  As it turned out, I had to go out on the ice to help the kids!  Ha!  You should see my knees!  Skating after not skating for 40 years is NOT the same thing as getting back on a bike...it does NOT come back to you!  (At least it didn't come back to me!)

Anyway, they are on their way home now - It is so quiet here!  Of course I miss them.   But am finally able to sit and think and respond to some of your posts.  It's great that Helen Simonson has agreed to return after her trip during the first week in May - we can extend our time together a few days.  This is good as April is a short month and we have  Easter and Passover coming up.  So let's extend our discussion of this section from Sunday the 24th to Monday the 25th...

Do you have any questions over this section for Helen Simonson when she comes in in early May?

I'm reading your posts now - will try to be brief in comments as I try to catch up with you all.


pedln

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #255 on: April 21, 2011, 06:51:50 PM »
Looking at the questions in the heading, no. 6 in particular.  About Dagenham's plans for the village -- I'm a bit confused about the ownership issues here.  Dagenham doesn't own the village, does he?  He tells the Major how he's offering a place of refuge to those who can no longer keep their country estates.  When the Major asks about those who already live in the village he says, "oh, we'll keep them."  He's to the manor born, yes, and is lord of the manor, but how far does that extend?

I understand that Major owns his own home, not Lord D; likewise the same for neighbor Alice. So Lord D wants the Major to help convince the villagers, the locals that his plans will be of benefit to them.  Hmmmm.  Good luck with that.

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #256 on: April 21, 2011, 06:57:39 PM »
 "When we pick and choose around the rules, we discover later we have set aside something precious in the process."

Laura, yes, it was Abdul Wahid who made this comment.   As you say, "picking and choosing among the rules, or in his case, not following the advice of his family, he finds himself in a moral dilemma."

I found myself puzzling over this concept more than anything else as I read this book.  There are a number of characters who would agree with A.Wahid - but isn't Helen Simonson saying that you really must pick and choose, not rigidly adhering to the rules ?  Do you find yourself picking and choosing?  I do.  Yet here she rights that something precious is lost in so doing.  

I am really interested in what others think of this?

 

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #257 on: April 21, 2011, 07:07:03 PM »
Pedln, we were posting together - you ask an interesting question.
Lord Dagenham is the Lord of the Manor.  I don't think he owns Rose Lodge, but he may own the fields behind the Major's house.  He may own a lot of the land - and he is having a hard time keeping up with  the expense associated with the manor.  So when Ferguson comes along with the offer to develop this land for a nice profit, he cannot refuse.  Even though he knows this will not be popular with the villagers.  He's counting on the Major to sell the idea to those who own land and homes.  
It would only be a matter of time when the luxury homes were built that the villagers would not be able to resist selling their land for a profit.  That's the disquieting thing about the story - even the Vicar is silent about the takeover - because he's been promised a new steeple.  Ferguson's money is fueling the development.

I wonder how common it is in England for quaint little villages to morph into theme park developments.  Is Helen S. exaggerating a bit in this area, or has it already happened, do you think?

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #258 on: April 21, 2011, 07:16:40 PM »
Sally, I love it when you refresh the memory  - I reallly liked this one -
 
"People who were alone & ignored often appeared less attractive than when surrounded by admiring companions."

I think H.S. is so original in her observations.  Maybe that's why I am drawn to first time authors these days - so fresh and unpredictable.  No formula.  You don't know what to expect.  

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #259 on: April 21, 2011, 07:23:11 PM »
FlaJean -
You are amazing!  The whole book in one sitting!  I can't remember when was the last time I did that.
I thought back to the tasting at the Taj Mahal Take Out - remember when both Mr. and Mrs. Rasool insisted on listening in to the food selection - grim faces, non too happy?  They were introduced as the founders of restaurant - it seems they still took an active role in the business, or they wouldn't have been there.  I'm sure that Mrs. Rasool would not be able to keep them away if she tried.  But what was it that made Mr. Rasool jump to his feet in protest during the performance?

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #260 on: April 21, 2011, 07:32:48 PM »
"Roger doesn't like to talk about religion...no religion, no politics, sex only through innuendo ..."  Callie
Does Roger seem real to you?  Sandy says she thinks Roger's father is real.  Is this to say that she feels Roger is NOT REAL? 
Do you get the feeling that Helen Simonson intends some of these characters to be  so annoying - unlikable - unbelievable, even?  Ferguson, Roger for example?  Shall we ask her?

CallieOK

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #261 on: April 21, 2011, 08:47:39 PM »
"Roger doesn't like to talk about religion...no religion, no politics, sex only through innuendo ..."  Callie
Does Roger seem real to you?  Sandy says she thinks Roger's father is real.  Is this to say that she feels Roger is NOT REAL? 
Do you get the feeling that Helen Simonson intends some of these characters to be  so annoying - unlikable - unbelievable, even?  Ferguson, Roger for example?  Shall we ask her?

Unfortunately, Roger does seem real to me.  Although the town I live in was originally a college town - and still is- , it became the "upscale" suburb of OKC and I see many people of Roger's age who have the same attitude.

I think HS intends to point out all sorts of stereotypes through the various characters she so skillfully depicts through their comments and thoughts.  It will be interesting to see what happens in the final chapters as she wraps up the various stories.

I'd love to see her comments on this.

serenesheila

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #262 on: April 21, 2011, 09:50:13 PM »
Roger seems real, to me, too.  I have heard quite a few people in his age range, voice similiar comments, to those Roger makes.  I've said before, I don't know how Roger turned out the way he did, with Nancy as a mother.  From what is said about his mother, she seems down to earth, kind and compassionate.

I am another fan of "Brothers and Sisters".  In my area they are still showing new segments.  Right now, Nora has reconnected with an old flame from high school. 

Love and hugs,
Sheila

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #263 on: April 21, 2011, 10:21:58 PM »
Callie I like the statement you make -
Quote
I think HS intends to point out all sorts of stereotypes through the various characters she so skillfully depicts through their comments and thoughts
yes, that is how I see it as well - and is she ever skillful at entertaining us with all these different shades of society represented by each character.

Sheila it is a mystery isn't it - Roger is not just reacting to his Dad but to life in general so differently than the Major and yet, not like Sandy either - he does come across as a man with dollar signs or rather pounds for eyes - but then these chapters I see a change as he embraces some of what his father cherishes - he still seems to be looking though for the dollar compensation and the prestige which the Major shuns.

Joan you quoted Callie and asked...
Quote
As you say, "picking and choosing among the rules, or in his case, not following the advice of his family, he finds himself in a moral dilemma."

I found myself puzzling over this concept more than anything else as I read this book.  There are a number of characters who would agree with A.Wahid - but isn't Helen Simonson saying that you really must pick and choose, not rigidly adhering to the rules ?  Do you find yourself picking and choosing?  I do.  Yet here she rights that something precious is lost in so doing.


One of the things lost is freedom to choose - once you choose than the freedom to make any other choice is no longer an option plus, since the other choices are not acted upon or adopted all the incremental and complimentary additions to those choices do not see the light of day - thus a loss of freedom to choose after a choice is made and the loss of the many other paths or decorations to life that accompany each choice etc.

Then, there is the concept of saying you are making a choice when really, the choice was made for you by some elder - [at age 2 most of us were strongly advised by an elder not to play in the street] For us to not follow in the footsteps set by elders there are aspects of the choice-not-taken that no longer adds to our life - there is a loss of security that cames with doing what was laid out as a plan for life - there is the loss of honoring the elders who, using their wisdom laid out the plan - It would be like during battle the officers may know the formula to up the odds of a win using the equipment, men and plan according to what they learned in a war academy - where as, a creative officer may try something new and actually succeed - and so, trying new tactics is added to the repertoire at the expense of strict obedience as well as, the loss of sticking to the traditional tried and true.

Once strict obedience to the tried and true is set aside for one event than the theory of strict obedience is in question and so, there are changes to the entire command system. The changes mean some traditions are lost but more, it means there is less secure knowing with less control over the resources [men and arms] and less control over planning resulting in other skills replacing strict obedience.

Finally, if there are enough folks who pick and choose influenced by events or through coercion other than the traditional that is how culture or products, even language is lost.

Thinking about it I see lots of choices in families that results in something lost - like Sunday dinner with the good china and silver - like the change for women using their education and skills in the work place which has changed not only motherhood but the role of grandmothers. We no longer sit on the front porch rocking and knitting while we keep an eye on the grandchildren dependent often on our children for a home.  All those collective, societal choices are showing up in ads, travel opportunities etc. Lost is having in-house unquestionable care for latch-key children, a constant monitor for children at play, hand-made socks and sweaters by the dozens with maybe a quilt or two thrown in - someone for Mom to talk with at any hour - and yes, the expectations of yet, one more elder.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #264 on: April 21, 2011, 11:00:44 PM »
Quote
One of the things lost is freedom to choose - once you choose than the freedom to make any other choice is no longer an option plus, since the other choices are not acted upon or adopted all the incremental and complimentary additions to those choices do not see the light of day - thus a loss of freedom to choose after a choice is made and the loss of the many other paths or decorations to life that accompany each choice etc.

Your comment struck me, Barb. In my accounting class, recently, we learned about what they call in accounting an opportunity cost. It is much as you describe here. By making a choice to go back to school, for example, I've locked myself out of working during that period. I am convinced that I didn't get a second interview for a job because they needed someone before classes end for this semester. It was a little annoying actually, because the ad said part-time when in fact they wanted full-time. Won't have that problem over the summer though.

I think I will see what I can find on current real estate law in England. When I was there back in 65' is was explained to me that you own your house and can buy and sell, but the land itself belongs to the Queen. I don't know how the Lords, etc. with the big estates fit in. Back in feudal times, the Lords owned the villages too. No one could move or get married, etc. without the Lord's approval. Actually, we have a similar thing here that I just learned of a year or so ago. Hershey (yes, of Hershey Kisses fame) owns land in Middletown that has a housing development on it (I am not sure if there are others). You can buy and sell your house but the land is Hershey's. There are certain restrictions and you must pay a land rent of some very small amount (and I mean small, but I don't remember exactly the amount, under $10 is what I recall) to the foundation.

rosemarykaye

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #265 on: April 22, 2011, 03:13:19 AM »
Frybabe - as far as I know, the Queen does not own all of the freehold land in the UK - but I could be wrong.  Of course she does own vast tracts of the country in her own name, as do other mega rich people like the Duke of Westminster.

England, Wales and N Ireland have two types of ownership, freehold and leasehold.  Freehold means that you can buy/sell at will.  Leasehold means that you always have a superior landlord, and usually have to get his/her consent to sell, although modern leases would say something like "not to be unreasonably withheld".

In Scotland until recently every piece of land was held under the "feudal" system, which meant that everyone had a feudal "superior", but recent legislation abolished all feudal titles, so that the system is now more or less in line with the rest of the UK.

The big estates are owned by whoever owns them - in Aberdeenshire that would normally be the local laird whose family have owned the estate for centuries.  The estate will also usually own the houses and land in the local villages.  Hwever, as time has passed, some estates have sold off houses to raise cash.  Some estates have also been sold in their entirety either to wealthy "outsiders" or to corporate investors.  You may have heard of the Knoydart Estate, a remote estate in western Scotland.  This was bought by a businessman - I think he was Dutch or German - who then more or less abandoned the place and went bankrupt.  The estate owned the entire area and all of the houses.  The people who live there managed to buy the estate back for themselves, so I suppose it is now run as some sort of collective.  They would probably have received at least some money from the Scottish Executive to do this, as they are supposed to support rural/remote communities.  This is however quite unusual - where I used to live Deeside there were at least five huge local estates, of which only one was owned by someone who had not been born into it.

The lairds do not, however, have any say in who marries whom any more!

Rosemary

Steph

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #266 on: April 22, 2011, 06:15:41 AM »
Whew.. Lots of long replies to go through this morning. The Major, I had great sympathy for him in the horror and confusion of the dance.. He really was frozen in place and I know that feeling. Sometimes things happen and you dont react quite as quickly as you hope. I have some regrets about that sort of behavior.
Roger to me is simply awful.. I dont understand the relationship between Roger and the Major..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

Frybabe

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #267 on: April 22, 2011, 09:44:35 AM »
Thanks for the clarification Rosemarykaye. Perhaps, my relative was talking about his situation or area in which he lived. At any rate, I didn't mean the Queen per se, but as a representative of the country's land trust as a whole. The Hershey Trust land sounds a lot like leasehold, only the homeowners don't need the trust's permission to sell. Homeowners do, however, have restrictions on what they can build or plant on the property.

Personally, I would never buy a property that has restrictions on how you can decorate, what you can plant, what color you paint you home, etc. For the life of me, I can't see how these homeowner associations have any legal right to do so because they don't own the land. I suppose the people who develop the housing area put the restrictions of use right into the deed documentation.

pedln

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #268 on: April 22, 2011, 12:07:47 PM »
Rosemary, that's really very interesting and informative. Freehold and leasehold. Years ago one of my friends in Puerto Rico was from the UK. She had grown up in hotels because her parents managed hotels in Yorkshire.  She would frequently tell how the Queen owned all the swans.   I  assume in the cities that most homes are freehold? 

Now, let me see if I have this straight -- the village is called Edgecomb St. Mary, and that's where the shop is, the Major lives in/on the outskirts of the village.  When they go into town -- they're not talking London, but a nearby town?  Small town, but bigger than the village?  They are all in Sussex?  which is south of London.  I wish I had a good map. 

What a revolu. Bravo to Mrs. Ali. She can stand her own and make pointed comments along with the best of them.  And Mrs. Rassool, too.  A real commander there.  As for Mrs Kahn, she got her come uppence.  One could feel sorry for her, but not after her spiteful actions at the dance.

Oh boy, the Major.  Didn't you love that line in response to Mrs Kahn's,"It's probably dementia.   .   . "    "Oh no, Daisy is always that way."  HS is a real champ at subtle humor.

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #269 on: April 22, 2011, 02:30:35 PM »
Thanks Rosemary - looks like an area of the world populated for over 1500 years developed land ownership as time changed the whose who among the gentry. In this part of the world we are not concerned with leasehold and freehold but we are concerned with owning or not what is below the earth's surface. - finding out who owns the mineral rights can be a challenge that thank goodness the Title Companies take on and then to learn if the mineral rights pass during a sale is another huge issue plus, an agent remembering to request the binder from the Title Co. to insure mineral rights - wheee - we do earn our money.

A Leasehold sounds to me more like the relationship a Condo owner has in the building - a condo owner only owns everything inside including the inside walls and the Condo Association has ownership and responsibility for the building, land and equipment - where as many Home Owner Associations allow you to opp out with limited association.

Here, the HMO's are usually tied to water and sewage - the area was developed before city water or sewage was available and so a private or municipal district was established - since the treatment of sewage requires land - [it is simply a huge septic like system] - the land set aside, is watered with treated water and becomes the neighborhood park that can even include a neighborhood swimming pool.

Many subdivisions that do not have a HMO include in the deed restrictions the kind and size of home that can be built - all, to 25% masonry - the type of roof material - the height of fences - if or not an outside washline can be installed - the kind and number of animals that are permitted per household etc.

Add to that, some HMO's not only maintain the water and sewage utilities and the park, often the front lawns of all the homeowners are maintained and a security system is installed at the entry to the subdivision. The costs are covered either as an additional HMO monthly fee or it is included and calculated in your utility bill for water and sewer. Opting out usually means your basic coverage in included in the utility bill and you do not want to utilize the park, tennis courts, pool etc.

As to those who take the legal opportunity to push control over neighbors - it usually takes a petition by a certain number of homeowners complaining before someone is asked to comply but there is always someone with too much time on their hands that has become a neighborhood curmudgeon regardless HMO or not. So there is little security Frybabe, from those who want to control how we live.

After all that it seems to me if a piece of land - Lord D's property - is being developed it would either have separate water and sewerage facilities or it may tie into the existing facilities used by the Village - and in the case of water is it from an underground aquifer or is it collected and stored in tanks - if it is from underground that could affect water rights for the Village so who knows what all is involved here developing land for housing.

Aw pedln poor Mrs Kahn she just wanted to be more than her countrymen so that she would be acceptable to the village 'Ladies.' And yes, isn't it a giggle reading all the small ironic examples of dry humor - He is a champ isn't he - I wonder if he shared his thoughts aloud with Nancy - I could see a quick smile dawning on her face at every turn when he was at home.

And Steph Roger is not an easy character to admire is he - well he may come through yet and he may still be going through a growing up period - but then back in the early part of our read I am remembering a post or two saying the pressure to have money is very high among those in his age group - I've been breathing a bit easier of late because of a two day training event I attended last month - after noticing this draconian attitude towards seniors with any lifetime accumulated wealth that is typical of the Gen Y's and the Gen X's the new group is being called the Generosity generation who are very aware of need and either give of their own assets or arrange for money earning events to make better the world, their community and individuals -  They do not have this sense of entitlement for their parents lifetime accumulations - so there is hope on the horizon.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #270 on: April 22, 2011, 05:41:00 PM »
Barbara - exactly!  You described the President of the Home Owners'  Association in the town in which my son just moved in NC.  He's a person with "two much time on his hands" -  He drives around with his clipboard and writes up those who are in violation of the associations rules.  I don't think my son read all of the rules before they bought the house or they would not have bought this house!

Frybabe - "For the life of me, I can't see how these homeowner associations have any legal right to do so because they don't own the land."  I guess the moral is - read what you're signing!

The first week they were there they 'were written up"  for leaving the garage door open too long.  The four little ones were used to going in and out of the garage  all day for bikes, etc.  when they lived in TN.  The door must remain closed except when putting the cars in and out.  That was just a warning - the next time there will be a fine.
At Christmas my son hung five Christmas balls from a tree (planted by the association) located between the sidewalk and the street.  He received  a letter telling him that the tree would be observed in the spring and if there was any sign of damage, he'd have to replace it.

Another time he received a letter threatening a fine if a toy was left in the front yard overnight.  There is no recourse.  

So what do you think - does the Major own Rose Cottage?  He's sure attached to the place.  This is the house where he and Bertie grew up, right?  He likes nothing better than watching the sun go down over the back fence.  Imagine if they start building luxury homes there, blocking his view!  But legally, Lord D. seems to have the right to do that - no matter what the picketers hope to accomplish.  Surely the Major has to side with them and express his feelings to Dagenham about the deal he is planning with Ferguson.  But above all, he wants to fulfill his dream and show off those guns to the visiting bigwigs - and gain stature in their eyes.  I thought his reaction to the model of the new town was quite subdued, didn't you?  Did you understand his silence as he studied it?  Why didn't he walk out of the meeting?


JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #271 on: April 22, 2011, 05:44:18 PM »
So you think  Roger is believable.  I guess you think that Ferguson is believable too?   Gum thinks they are both annoying. But are they believable?  Maybe we need to learn more about them before the story is through so  we can understand them and believe  they  are not just stereotypes - annoying stereotypes at that.  

Steph doesn't understand the relationship between Roger and his father.  Perhaps the Major has been hard on him.  Maybe he thinks his mother spoils her only child and he wants to make a man of him.
Remember in the first chapter of the book where they visited that big toy store in London and Roger fell in love with a bike on display.  In my mind the bike is red and it is shiney.  I think the store  must be Hamely's - three floors of just toys, toys, toys...many set up so kids can get their hands on them and try them out.  I wonder if the Major and Nancy bought anything for Roger there. Somehow I doubt it.  Do you remember that he didn't get the bike - but when they went home the Major gave him his old bike from when he, himself  was a child -  it was kept outside, wasn't it?  Wrapped in a blanket?  
How would a child react to kind of parenting on a regular basis?  Wouldn't he conclude that his father didn't love him much?  He doesn't seem to feel the love and when you don't feel lovable, you don't know how to give it in return. Maybe Roger doesn't know how his actions are hurting his father because he thinks his father doesn't care about him.   Sad situation.



JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #272 on: April 22, 2011, 05:49:50 PM »
Pedln, I remember in her interview, Helen S said that the two Sussex towns, "Edgecombe St. Mary and Hazelbourne-on-the-Sea are fictitious amalgamations of places I know and love."  I tried to find a map, but these places were so small and Sussex so large, that we'd better start looking at the big picture first.  Do you remember when Mrs. Ali's shop was first described, we were told that the villagers would take a boat to France to do their big shopping?  And do you remember the description of the steep white cliffs?  (Did you know those white cliffs are chalk?  My son brought some home for his nieces and nephews at Christmastime.)  I immediately thought these towns must be near Dover -   Maybe Rosemary knows of some little beach towns in the vicinity? 
It's interesting that Roger even wants a little cottage here...far from the action in London.  Yet I can't believe he wants to be near his father.  Can you?




Frybabe

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #273 on: April 22, 2011, 07:09:04 PM »
Barb, regarding mineral rights. I just found out early this week that Pennsylvania does not necessarily own the mineral rights under the land it owns. Pennsylvania is pretty new at this kind of drilling on this scale and is now struggling to formulate laws and regulations regarding same.

In addition Pennsylvania, so far as I am aware, has not yet requested primacy to monitor and enforce regulations regarding underground injection programs. To gain primacy the Commonwealth must have regulations in place that are at least as stringent as the EPA. Hopefully they are working towards this goal. In the meantime, the EPA has primacy. Speaking of which, the Feds have been reviewing, and where needed, revising and strengthening their regulations regarding Underground Injection Control and the Clean Water Act. Any time well drilling activities can affect water resources that may be used for drinking, whether surface or aquifer, the operators/owners must comply with both. The drillers in the Northern Tier are recycling at least some of the water they use, having it treated and re-injecting it. Because a lot of the area is rural and has been something of a depressed area for quite a while, I do not believe they have the infrastructure in place to recycle much more than they already do. I understand that some of the used water is shipped elsewhere. I don't know how much is treated (or not) and discharged into our watershed system.

Not something in the book, I know, but it is an interest of mine.


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #274 on: April 22, 2011, 08:44:49 PM »
Ownership to what is beneath the surface is going to be more of an issue than simply Oil and Gas - usually if you own Mineral rights the language is there that you own the water beneath your land - since drilling for either oil or gas as well as, water can be done with pipes installed on an angle from another property it is easy enough to take what is useful without ever disturbing your land. In west Texas this is becoming a problem as underground water is being harvested, leaving large ranches in permanent drought conditions as the water is piped to growing cities who will pay top dollar for that water - Austin is buying now storing the water for the next 50 years when they expect the city to be large enough that our current contract with the Lower Colorado River will not supply the area with enough water.

Most folks looking at a new development only think of their house and surface land without thinking of the underground connections for utilities,  the wear and tear on local roads, additional waste sites, the additional need for schools and medical facilities, police and fire-fighting equipment, manpower and know-how - on and on - it is only recently that a request for water taps and building permits in order to open a new subdivision requires an impact study that, as here in Austin area, may even include an environmental and endangered species impact study. All that before the first shovel hits the dirt. The fees, studies, planning and work to install the conduits. roads etc. is paid upfront that a developer expects to receive a profit plus costs with the sale of each lot.

Someone like Lord Dagenham may have land but that is less than half of what is required to get it developed. He needs a partner that has a team behind him regardless if it is this loud American or someone from Britain who knows how to make a land dream become reality. And  yes, his village may be all built on his Estate however, it will be a major impact on the village services, utilities, roads and facilities.

Planning needs to take into consideration shopping for the new home owners - either shops are included within the Subdivision creating direct competition for the existing village shops or the village shops need to be upgraded to accommodate the numbers and interests of the new residents who build in the new Estate. 

Frybabe each state has different Real Estate and Mineral Rights laws - here I know to research using a Title Co and its plant -  all the plants in Austin closed a few years ago when the down-turn started - our closest plant in now in San Antonio - however, there is more and more online and I bet if you start with the County Tax Appraisal office -  at least get the parcel number and then go from there - I have heard that eastern states do not make it easy for the average person to do the search - that even the transfer of property requires hiring an attorney however, there should be a way you can check to see if your title policy that you may not have looked at since the day you closed says 'fee simple' which in many states means you do own the mineral and water rights.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #275 on: April 22, 2011, 09:21:19 PM »
Joan  I have seen this kind of behavior usually by retired upper management whose only accumulated work skills for 'excellence' is to tell his neighbors how to live -  ;) - I know it is not fun - the best you can say is that the area will be very safe since this guy will never allow anyone more than 100 yard access in the neighborhood without checking to see who they are. - Like any security it comes at the expense of freedom - ah so - if only there was balance -

The best I have seen in some neighborhoods where 'looks' are sacristan - your son can figure out an easy access to the garage from the backyard even if it means hiring someone to put a door at the back of the garage that opens to the side of the house and then erect a  privacy fence as close as allowed to the front of the garage to keep as much of the side-yard from view - he will have to pave the area with bricks or it will be a muddy mess - but he needs to look at the limit for impervious cover before he puts down any concrete - then the children will have to invite their friends to play in their backyard.

Its like years ago and some homemakers expected a  perfect front room so that no one could relax in the room - that is how some folks look at the street view of individual property - I know - they should get a life - but other than selling and moving or creating a massive uprising in the neighborhood - there it is...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

rosemarykaye

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #276 on: April 23, 2011, 03:14:06 AM »
Joan P - I did not see the bike incident as the Major being horrible to Roger - quite the reverse.  I thought he had carefully kept his old bike until his son was old enough to have it.  When I was a very small child I had a little wooden engine that you could sit in - it had been made by an uncle of mine years before and passed down, and I really loved it.

I used to be taken to Hamleys every year around Christmas to choose one present and to see the lights in Regent Street.  I don't really remember any of those presents as much as I remember that engine, and a china doll called Margaret who was also passed on from someone else. 

Pedln - I am not sure about the locations in the book.  The white cliffs of Dover (in Kent) are certainly famous, but I don't think that is where the book is set - it's farther west, in Sussex, I think.  The place names that Simonson chooses are not typical of Kent at all.  When I was at school we had to do a geography field trip to Cuckmere Haven, which I'm pretty sure is in Sussex, and were made to climb up the Seven Sisters (chalk cliffs) wearing full school uniform!

Here is a link with some pictures:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=seven+sisters&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivnsm&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=73iyTcCrBI7B8QOM07yVDA&ved=0CEsQsAQ&biw=1268&bih=607

The only place in Sussex that I think you can get a ferry to France from is Newhaven - there is, or used to be, a line from there to Dieppe.

Edgecombe St Mary sounds to me more like a Devonshire name, but I think the whole book is set in Sussex, a county that I do not know very well (that walk must have put me off!).

Rosemary

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #277 on: April 23, 2011, 05:02:37 AM »
What a thoughtful thing Joan for your son to bring some rock from Britain back in the valuable space in a suitcase as gifts for everyone.

Wonderful photos Rosemary - thanks for finding and sharing them - while looking all I could think of was

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj6OPxA2E9U&feature=related

And then I found a bit of smooth Jim Reeves http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s05QjEvU_kQ&feature=related

I also remember my two wheeler which belonged to my mother's cousin, who I admired so and felt special having her bike - my father painted it blue and the rear frame even had holes for me to lace string so my skirt would not get caught in the back wheel - at the time my sister received a new 'store bought' bike but I always thought I was special because I had one that was from family - anything 'store bought' was not highly thought of regardless a toy, furniture, clothing or foods - family made, grown, preserved, baked, sewn, knitted had more caché

My take on the Major remembering the bike scene when Roger was young is that in the Major's memory no one during his youth probably ever asked for anything they saw in the window of a store or advertised in the paper - not only did he keep his bike in the best condition to be able to pass it on to his son but the idea of his child asking for something just because he saw it in a store window and then, Nancy actually giving attention to this request was probably mind boggling, beyond anything he could imagine till it happened. Interesting how we can all read something a bit different in each scene.

Does anyone else remember their first bike and how they received the bike or anything about it?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

rosemarykaye

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #278 on: April 23, 2011, 05:44:13 AM »
Barb - I was not allowed to have a bike because my father was so obsessive about danger he thought I would be killed - this in 1960s suburban London, when there was no chance of my even cycling on the road - we had a long path at the back of our house that children used.  In the end I acquired a rusty old thing with no brakes and flat rotten tyres - I can't recall where I got it from but I taught myself to ride it on that same path.

After my father's death when I was 8, I saved up my pocket money and bought a second hand bike for £8.  I then rode it all over Bromley (where we lived) - but of course there was less traffic then.  Later on I bought a new Coventry Eagle and rode it all over the Kent countryside, and later in Cambridge, where it was easy as there were so many cyclists.  I vividly recall riding out one sunny Sunday morning to the American cemetery at Madingley:

http://www.madingleyamericancemetery.info/graves.htm

and seeing all the white crosses and Jewish stars, with only the birds for company.

Nowadays I don't think I would have the nerve to cycle on the road anywhere, although Edinburgh abounds with bikes, including ones towing little carts for toddlers to sit in.

Rosemary

Steph

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #279 on: April 23, 2011, 06:17:55 AM »
I grew up in the country.. Never learned to ride a bike until I was married with children and lived in a community that everyone rode their bikes everywhere. I had a pony and then a horse later and all sorts of animals, so never actually missed the bikes.
I think the Major was the sort of father who simply could not understand his son being different than he was. You see a lot of fathers like that. He is just now beginning to understand how Roger can be different and still be a good person ( well, not that good, but trying)
Stephanie and assorted corgi