Author Topic: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online  (Read 204051 times)

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1040 on: May 11, 2012, 11:16:02 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in
 
Bleak House                           
by Charles Dickens
                     

 

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.

The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.

The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
 
 
 
Magnanimus Conduct of Mr. Guppy
(click to enlarge)

 

INSTALMENT

XIX
 
 


 DATE of PUBLICATION
 
 Aug. 1853
 


 
 CHAPTERS

60-67
 
   
 

 DISCUSSION DATES

May 16-20

 
 The Mausoleum at Chesney Wold
(click to enlarge)
                Some Topics to Consider

Here are some questions to start, but we'd really like to hear from you.
  What are some of your own questions and observations on these concluding chapters?
 
 

Chapter LX  Perspective

1. Was it any surprise to learn  Miss Flite was a daily visitor to Esther's sick room?  Or that she has appointed Richard executor of her will? As it turned out, is there irony in this?

2. Do you see Richard and Ada's marriage surviving the strain of this case no matter the outcome?

Chapter LXI  A Discovery

1. Can you explain the coolness between Mr. Skimpole and John Jarndyce, whom he referred to as "the Incarnation of Selfishness" in his diary?  What is Dickens implying with Skimpole's character?

2. Was Allan Woodcourt's confession to Esther expected?  What did you think of Esther's response?  Why does she consider her future path easier than his?

Chapter LXII  Another Discovery

1.  Did Allan's confession precipitate Esther's desire to return as the mistress of Bleak House as soon as possible?
 
2. Do you think John Jarndyce recognizes the importance of the paper Smallweed has found among Krook's papers?  Do you think he's suspected all along  of the existence of a will that was not in his interest?

Chapter LXIIISteel and Iron

1. How does George Rouncewell's brother react to his request to remove his name from his mother's will?  Do you think Mrs. Rouncewell's will was of any importance?

2. Another letter, this one George will send to Esther, a letter addressed to George containing a letter from an unmarried woman.   What was the unfortunate timing of the  delivery of this letter?  What is in this letter?


Chapter LXIV  Esther's Narrative

1.  Why did Esther's guardian furnish the gift house  to look just like his own home?     Was there  a reason why this sweet little cottage is also named "Bleak House"?  Why  do you think Dickens named this book Bleak House?

2. Was Guppy's new-found magnanimity  unbelievable?  Would his new house and his "'eart-felt feelings" for Esther tempt her to consider his proposal?  Was this scene strictly for comic relief or is Dickens making another point here?


Chapter LXV  Beginning the World

1. What of the new will found among Krook's papers?  Too good to be true?  Would it have set things right, but for what followed? 

2. What did you think of the ironic ending of the Jarndyce suit?  Was it predictable?  Can you find examples of the lighter mood throughout the Court House as bundles of papers and documents are dumped outside on the pavement?

3. How did Richard and Miss Flite handle the outcome of the case?  Were they able to pick up and begin life, once free from Jarndyce?


Chapter LXVI  Down in Lincolnshire

1. Do the dull, static days at Chesney Wold suggest what life would have been like without Lady Dedlock's presence?  What makes it bearable for Sir Leicester?  For his cousin, Volumina?

2. Was it made clear why Mr. George chose to live out his life here?

Chapter LXVII The Close of Esther's Narrative

1. What was revealed of Esther's life as Mrs. Allan Woodcourt? What did you think of Dickens' concluding chapter? Was it satisfying to you?

2.  Do you think that his readers were pleased to read of the other characters in the book before closing?

   

                                                 

 Bleak House
 "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.


DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi JoanK  




JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1041 on: May 11, 2012, 11:23:57 AM »
Yes, Bucket did have good intentions - and did try to do what he thought was best - but as has been pointed out, he didn't always forsee what others might do in the meantime.  I was surprised that he had so much autonomy in carrying out his investigation.  Yes, this is fiction...must remember that.  But wasn't it strange tjat no  one else was assigned to the case with him - and this was a big one - a murder case!    Maybe this was because everyone believed the real murderer had been apprehended - and so Bucket took it upon himself to get to reveal the murderer was other than Mr. George?   I don't think he'd work well with other investigators though - not his style.
Do you think Bucket knew it was Hrotense all along - did he ever consider that it was Lady Dedlock?  I forget those details - so much happened so fast...

One other bit of irony - Guppy, sworn to stay out of the case, a sacred trust to Esther that he would not do any further investigation into her cause - felt complelled to step in and reveal to Lady D. that the letters that he had first planned to give to deliver to her - were now in Sir Dedlock's plans.  He couldn't have done more damage - hurt Esther more,  if he had tried.


Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1042 on: May 12, 2012, 09:06:38 AM »
 I do believe Guppy had the best of intentions in warning Lady Dedlock that the letters had been
found.  He had, at one time, attempted to get them for her, didn't he?  He felt he owed her that. He could not have known she would react as she did.   
   More of Lord Dedlock’s character is revealed, to his very great credit.  “It is necessary---less to his own dignity now perhaps, than for her sake---that he should be seen as little disturbed, and as much himself, as may be.”    He has sent Bucket to search for Lady Dedlock, with assurances of his love and forgiveness.  He does not want her to suffer any
further pain from seeing how the blow has struck him down.
  It is a pity Lady Dedlock did not understand how dear she was to her husband.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1043 on: May 12, 2012, 09:31:16 AM »
Oh Babi - I believe that Guppy had the best intentions...It was just the irony of how the warning caused Esther the pain that she feared would occur if  Guppy pursued working in her interests.

Quote
What do you think of Buckett's sleuthing powers and how he is reacting to this "case"?

That's an interesting question, Marcie - because there seems to be two different Buckets at work on the case.  One has superpowers - as has been mentioned: he appears to appear inside rooms without keys, he sees and hears things that others don't or can't - and seems to read minds.  Just when you think he can't possibly be human - and credible, all these "helpers"  emerge from the shadows of the night as in this chapter - and you realize he is not alone on the case as it first seemed. So even though it seems he has superpowers, Dickens tries to assure us that he is merely a very perceptive detective.
 
As Bucket appears late on the scene in this long tale, do you get the feeling that Dickens felt he needed someone who was not involved in the Jarndyce affair in any way to finish the tale.  Without Bucket this would have been difficult, I think.

He's looking for Lady Dedlock -  He owes it to Sir Leicester.  But why take Esther with him at night - in this snowstorm?  Wasn't he putting her health and safety at great risk?  That was quite a dramatic contrast - Sir Leicester in his warm house watching the snow fall...Esther soaking wet in the sleet, wind and rain.

Just once, I'd like to see Mr. Bucket admit that he made a mistake, or didn't think things through...that he is fallible.  Do you think Dickens felt the same way?  Do you? 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1044 on: May 12, 2012, 12:59:55 PM »
Oh dear I doubt Bucket thinks he did wrong - he probably believes he did what was his bidding and did not realize how his trapping someone would affect others - I think Bucket is only in contention now as the cause of an ill conceived setting of his trap because of how Sir Leicester's health reacted - if Sir Leicester had not faded so dramatically we would be applauding the work of Bucket since the way Dickens wrote the story ferreting out Hortense was not obvious.

And then the timing of Guppy's visit with the thick cloud of shame Lady Deadlock was hiding unearthed so recently by Tulkinghorn, she was not thinking of anyone except how her past would destroy Sir Leicester, his opinion of her and the social ramifications when it was made known. I do think part of Lady D was aware how injured Sir Leicester would be and she did not want to make the injury any more severe by putting herself under his protection. Also, the nature of shame is to believe you are the cause.

I think she knew that he would if nothing else feel an obligation to his station in life to protect her but the shame to the family she believed she could do something to avoid. I think she saw she had no place to go, not just to avoid her own humiliation but also, to protect Sir Leicester from a loss of family honor that would bring down the house of Deadlock. The house of Deadlock, as we saw in earlier chapters reached politically into villages and government and so, to darken it with the shame surrounding Lady Deadlock's past would affect many.  

I think Bucket is simply that one balancing block like playing Jenga - everyone pulls out a block till someone topples the tower - in this story it is not clear if it was Guppy or Bucket who pulled the balancing block -

There is a litany of "had"s
  • had Guppy not shared when he did Lady Deadlock may have been in the house when Bucket sprung his trap
  • had Sir Leicester all these years given voice to his love and told her what he knew and assuring her no story was too much so that Lady D realized she was safe.
  • had her sister not swept away her baby or at least told her of her plan to raise the child Tulkinghorn would not have the grip on Lady D that circles this entire story.
  • had Tulkinghorn not devoted his life to collecting secrets George would not be in jail nor would he have felt compromised by giving Tulkinghorn an example of Hawdon's handwriting
On and on it goes as we see each character affected by the sister taking it upon herself to keep and raise in secret Lady Deadlock's baby.

That was one long night and day for Esther - seems to me Bucket picked her up around midnight and they drove all night still searching through the day. Between small pox and all night carriage rides this is some strong lady - The back and forth all around town and countryside at breakneck speed of this horse and carriage ride reminds me of the life lead by Esther - from one stop to another someone else has been in charge of her life as she is shunted from place to place making the best of it where ever she alights.

As I recall Bucket asks Esther to accompany him so when they do find Lady Deadlock she will not feel threatened, which is how he sees approaching her would seem where as, Esther would assure her that they were  not there to capture her but to assist her.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1045 on: May 12, 2012, 02:40:50 PM »
I was surprised that he had so much autonomy in carrying out his investigation.  Yes, this is fiction...must remember that.  But wasn't it strange tjat no  one else was assigned to the case with him - and this was a big one - a murder case!    




I find myself thinking of Bucket as a private detective, especially during this installment.  We know that Sir Dedlock had agreed to pay Bucket whatever was necessary to find the murderer of Mr. Tulkinghorn.  Then Sir Dedlock sent Bucket to find Lady Dedlock.  It seems like Bucket is under more than just the influence of Sir Dedlock --- it seems he is under his employ.  I know it did say in the book that Bucket was part of what seemed to be the police of the city of London, but he doesn’t function like we would assume in such a role.

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1046 on: May 12, 2012, 02:52:15 PM »
Something in the very first sentence of this installment stuck me ---
“I had gone to bed and fallen asleep, when my guardian knocked at the door of my room and begged me to get up directly.”

The word guardian caught my eye because I assumed that since Esther’s engagement to Mr. Jarndyce had been made known, that she would refer to him as her betrothed, or some such name.  Then I remembered that Esther is, in fact, narrating the story from the future, retelling it to us the readers.  Hmmm…and Mr. Woodcourt makes another appearance in this installment.  I can’t help but wonder how Esther will end up --- married, engaged, neither, and to whom?

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1047 on: May 12, 2012, 02:59:28 PM »
As I completed this installment, I felt that it was all about finding Lady Dedlock, and when I got to the end and read the last sentence, I felt like there was nothing of importance in the installment, that I had spent my time in the hunt, so to speak.  Going back over the hunt with you all will make me appreciate it.

I had no idea why Lady Dedlock would have gone by Jenny’s house while reading Chapter 57.  Of course, now I know. 

I assumed when Bucket turned around that he had some information that Lady Dedlock was heading back to London, and that’s why he and Esther back tracked.  I don’t remember any specific clues.  I just thought I deduced that.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1048 on: May 12, 2012, 03:11:24 PM »
Bucket kept talking to folks along the way on the journey out of London - we never hear the specifics of those conversations and I get the impression he put it together when he lost the trail that the lady he was following was Jenny wearing Lady Deadlock's clothing - I am thinking there were just enough clues from those he spoke with for him to realize it was not Lady Deadlock.

Watching that storm from his window must have been brutal for Sir Leicester knowing his wife was out in that night of ice, sleet, wind and heavy snow.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1049 on: May 12, 2012, 05:56:47 PM »
Bucket kept talking to folks along the way on the journey out of London - we never hear the specifics of those conversations and I get the impression he put it together when he lost the trail that the lady he was following was Jenny wearing Lady Deadlock's clothing - I am thinking there were just enough clues from those he spoke with for him to realize it was not Lady Deadlock. 
That's got to be it, Barb.  One more in your helpful list of "hads".  If Bucket had turned around earlier, they might have found Lady D. in time.  I had an awful feeling of frustration all through the chase.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1050 on: May 12, 2012, 09:41:27 PM »
Laura, you're right - Esther still refers to John Jarndyce as her "guardian" - he still refers to her as the future Mistress of Bleak house.  Not exactly an engaged couple are they?  I was somewhat surprised that JJ handed her over to Bucket that stormy night.  Why didn't he go with her?  Not enough room in the carriage?

Barbara paints an vivid  picture of the rush in the storm to find Lady D. in time - following the traces in the snow where her dress had dragged through the snow.    

Some things I didn't understand - if timing was so important, why did they stop at some of the places they did? I suppose Esther needed the rest, but that seemed to be  time wasted at the house in the country - with the three lovely daughters who fed Esther soup.   Did it occur to you that they might be Mr. Vholes' wife and daughters?  
 I had the same  awful feeling of frustration as time slipped away, too, Pat - but never, ever thought the chase was going to end as it did.  

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1051 on: May 12, 2012, 10:57:00 PM »
With 20-20 hindsight, I realize that the death of Lady D. was the most likely outcome.  In Victorian novels characters guilty of sexual misdeeds tend to be killed off.  But I sure didn't think of that while I was reading.

I was somewhat surprised that JJ handed her over to Bucket that stormy night.  Why didn't he go with her?  Not enough room in the carriage?
That's probably the reason.  The horses would be slowed a little by the extra weight.  And JJ knew Bucket would take good care of her.

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1052 on: May 13, 2012, 12:41:53 AM »
I am thankful for all of the comments and questions you all post. They make me think about many aspects of the book that I would otherwise have overlooked or not given much thought.

I am re-reading some of the chapters looking at the specific language Dickens chooses and the some of the metaphors that he includes.

Chapter 57 starts an installment that seems to me to have a troubled dreamlike quality to it. And in retrospect, this installment seems to have many references to death, as well as to secrets.

In the first sentence, which Laura quoted above, we find that Esther has fallen asleep. "I had gone to bed and fallen asleep, when my guardian knocked at the door of my room and begged me to get up directly."

A few hours into Esther and Buckett's pursuit, Esther reflects "I was far from sure that I was not in a dream. We rattled with great rapidity through such a labyrinth of streets, that I soon lost all idea where we were; except that we had crossed and re-crossed the river..."


The crossing and recrossing of the river seems to emphasize the use of the word "river." It made me think of, the Styx, a river in Greek mythology that formed the boundary between Earth and the Underworld, that separated the living from the dead.

Esther goes on to say, "At length we stopped at the corner of a little slimy turning, which the wind from the river, rushing up it, did not purify... Against the mouldering wall by which they stood, there was a bill, on which I could discern the words, “FOUND DROWNED;” and this, and an inscription about Drags, possessed me with the awful suspicion shadowed forth in our visit to that place."

"I had no need to remind myself that I was not there, by the indulgence of any feeling of mine, to increase the difficulties of the search, or to lessen its hopes, or enhance its delays. I remained quiet; but what I suffered in that dreadful spot, I never can forget. And still it was like the horror of a dream. A man yet dark and muddy, in long swollen sodden boots and a hat like them, was called out of a boat, and whispered with Mr Bucket, who went away with him down some slippery steps — as if to look at something secret that he had to show. They came back, wiping their hands upon their coats, after turning over something wet; but thank God it was not what I feared!

Now that I'm looking there seem to be many more and they now look fairly straightforward to me. I'm sure that you all can find some that speak to you.

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1053 on: May 13, 2012, 09:33:26 AM »
I thought is very wise of Bucket to realize that Lady Dedlock, terrified, would need a
familiar face to reassure her even if he did find her. 
 Bucket is on the regular police force, but it was not uncommon for a wealthy to offer a
reward to the policeman in charge for a successful outcome. It certainly inspired diligence
among the underpaid officers. Nowadays a policeman cannot accept a reward for doing his job,
but rewards are still offered for 'information leading to...., etc."

 Dickens does not fail to give us another view of all this.  "It is given out that my Lady has gone down into Lincolnshire, but is expected to return presently.  Rumour, busy overmuch, however, will not go down into Lincolnshire. It persists in flitting and chattering about town. It knows that that poor unfortunate man, Sir Leicester, has been sadly used. It hears, my dear child, all sorts of shocking things. It makes the world of five miles round, quite merry."

 My opinion of Lord Dedlock has taken a 'sea-change'.  "Women will talk, and Volumnia, though a Dedlock, is no exceptional case. He keeps her here,  there is little doubt, to prevent her talking somewhere else. He is very ill; but he makes his present stand against distress of mind and body, most courageously."  My admiration for the poor man grows with every view of
him.
  In a conversation between Mrs. Rouncewell and George, Dickens reminds us:
“When I saw my Lady yesterday, George, she looked to me — and I may say at me too — as if the step on the Ghost’s Walk had almost walked her down.”

“Come, come! You alarm yourself with old-story fears, mother.”

  “No I don’t, my dear. No I don’t. It’s going on for sixty year that I have been in this
family, and I never had any fears for it before. But it’s breaking up, my dear; the great old
Dedlock family is breaking up.”
 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1054 on: May 13, 2012, 11:42:06 AM »
Babi, yes, it's especially courageous of Sir L, while he is battling with his stroke to keep watch for Lady D and make sure that others are considerate of her.

When Dickens describes Sir L's debilitation, which sounds so much like a stroke, I thought of Dickens own death due to a stroke.

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1055 on: May 13, 2012, 02:28:03 PM »
A Wintery Day and Night was a long-feeling chapter to read.  I can’t imagine how long that day and night were for Sir Dedlock!  And the weather only added to the worry, and the mood.

Based on the information in this chapter, I do think Sir Dedlock suffered a stroke, brought on by shock, no doubt.

Great comments in post 1052, Marcie.  I think Dickens has lots of little touches like those you listed in his writing throughout the book, but I’m sure I didn’t notice half of them!

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1056 on: May 13, 2012, 08:21:27 PM »
Me too, Laura. I'm sure I've been missing alot, although you and others are helping me to see more. Re-reading this chapter, while looking for "foreshadowing" and metaphors, has helped more of these to pop out for me.

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1057 on: May 14, 2012, 08:56:31 AM »
 Reading about Lady Dedlock's flight, I found cause to wish Dickens were not quite so good
with his descriptions. I felt the cold, the wet, the desperate anguish all too keenly. The
mental outlook brought to mind an earlier line, "Now it the time for shadow, when every
corner is a cavern, and every downward step a pit,.....”

  Poor lady.  If only they had been able to find her a bit sooner.  Would scandal still have ruined
the Dedlocks, or would 'society' simply heave a relieved sigh that an acceptable person had been
found to be the guilty party?  A servant, of course, and one of those awful French at that!
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1058 on: May 14, 2012, 09:08:06 AM »
It's a blessing it's raining here this morning - that means no gardening - and time to catch up and recoup from Mother's Day.  My boys made sure I was rested and well-fed - with breakfast - a late brunch and finally dinner - in restaurants!  Don't know about you, but I can't take even one meal in a restaurant without feeling I've overdone it - but three!
I hope you all had a good day yesterday...but not as filling! :D

So many good posts here - much to think about - and a good reason to go back and reread some of the rich and meaningful passages missed as I raced through the pages after the plot!  

We never did get into Lady Dedlock's mind and heart, did we, Babi?   People were talking about her, spreading rumors...
There were sightings, traces of her footprints in the snow...but  no  one was ever able to catch up with her - have a talk with her, find out what really happened way back when...or her feelings for Sir Leicester.

As you described, I too had a "sea change" regarding Sir Leicester.  Until now he had been a remote, one dimensional figure, interested only in his position and of course the family honor...not so much involved with his wife, "Honoria."  

PatH - interesting hindsight observation - "In Victorian novels characters guilty of sexual misdeeds tend to be killed off."  I had expected Sir  Leicester to die...but never thought about what would become of Lady Dedlock.  Too much to hope that she would be forgiven and live happily ever after at Chesney Wold...not with those footsteps on the terrace growing ever louder.  You've made me think of the future for Richard and Ada now.  They weren't exactly guilty of sexual misdeeds, but did flaunt Victorian custom by the quick marriage without the customary approval of family or church.  Will their marriage  go unpunished?

Not sure if Sir Leicester suffered a stroke or if he's in shock, Laura.  I think I remember reading that Sir L suffered from gout - as did Dickens.  From what I know of gout - elevated blood pressure, etc - both  men could well have suffered a stroke.  Dickens died at a rather early age following a stroke.




JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1059 on: May 14, 2012, 09:42:40 AM »
Marcie, that was an awesome post in which you carefully threaded together the many references to the dreamlike qualities of the dash through the night to find Lady Dedlock before it was too late.  Actually, it read more like a nightmare, didn't it? I came away thinking that this might be the only way Esther could survive the memory of this night - to regard the whole episode as just a bad dream, a very bad dream.  But, still, there is no question that the lady has died.  How will Esther handle what has happened?

I'm going to have to go back as you did and reread some of these sections I raced through.  As you suggest, there are other references pointing to death, to secrets and wills...abounding!  Interesting the way George and Sir Leicester have bonded.  Interesting to learn that Sir Leceister suspects his cousin, Volumnia of something - and well he should, watching her look for ways to protect whatever claim she might think she has on the Dedlock fortune.   Though, Tulkinghorn is dead, and Lady Dedlock too, Dickens still keeps us in suspense, doesn't he?  Off to reread...  



marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1060 on: May 14, 2012, 10:44:02 AM »
Babi and JoanP, I agree. Dickens writing is captivating ... and suspenseful, when he wants it to be. He definitely has a flair for the dramatic. It would have been interesting seeing him portray all of the parts aloud as he was writing.

I think that Sir L was well on his way to containing the damage of the scandal. He seemed to realize how to do that, perhaps from his political career. I think if Lady D had lived he would have been able to sheild her and himself from much of the damage.

JoanP, yes, I think that we're soon to be turning our attention to Richard and Ada. Jarndyce and Jarndyce looms over them.



BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1061 on: May 14, 2012, 11:57:29 AM »
When it comes down to it we still do not have a picture of the potential scandal - did Lady D. have her baby before or after marriage which would indicate she either had an affair before or after marriage - we know she thought her lover died at sea and she was not aware her baby lived and there is something about a painting of her as a Dance Hall Girl or whatever she was in that collection of prints that were on Weevle, Jobling's wall.

We can assume that the Captain was a love interest more than a one night stand since Lady D. chooses to go to the cemetery when she ran away. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1062 on: May 14, 2012, 02:59:46 PM »
I keep forgetting about that painting: a hint that her past was even darker. Is Dickens writing this at the time when he was having an affair with a "dance hall girl"?

" "In Victorian novels characters guilty of sexual misdeeds tend to be killed off."  Even as late as te 1930s. As a graduate student, I participated in a content analysis of "True Stories" in the Thirties. The women who "secumbed" all met terrible fates: one fell off a cliff, another was hit by lightning etc.

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1063 on: May 14, 2012, 05:22:16 PM »
I don't think that the painting of Lady Deadlock owned by Jobling is meant to be anything other than a "society" portrait...which Dickens does make fun of by naming it the "Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty" and making other sly remarks, ... but they are not dance girls.

From Chapter 32:
"Mr. Guppy affects to smile, and with the view of changing the conversation, looks with an admiration, real or pretended, round the room at the Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty, terminating his survey with the portrait of Lady Dedlock over the mantelshelf, in which she is represented on a terrace, with a pedestal upon the terrace, and a vase upon the pedestal, and her shawl upon the vase, and a prodigious piece of fur upon the shawl, and her arm on the prodigious piece of fur, and a bracelet on her arm."

Re the affair: In my opinion, there is nothing said that would lead us to think that Lady D had an affair after she was married. If she had an affair, after she married Sir L, that would make her a very different (unfaithful) character.

I've searched around and all of the synopsis of the book that I've found indicate that Lady D had a lover, Captain Hawdon, and that Hawdon was reported drowned, before she married Sir L. The reports of others don't "prove" that this was the timeline, but I haven't found one that puts the affair after the marriage. See, for example, the timeline at http://www.shmoop.com/bleak-house/lady-dedlock-timeline.html (Shmoop articles are written by educators and experts. They're from Ph.D. and Masters programs at Stanford, Harvard, UC Berkeley (and other top universities). The vast majority of  writers have taught at the high school or college levels.)

As we are saying, Lady D, was "punished" for the "out-of-wedlock" liaison but so was Captain Hawdon.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1064 on: May 14, 2012, 06:04:54 PM »
thanks for sharing that Marcie - good synopsis - the only part that has me curious is that I thought there was more reason for Lady Deadlock to realize Esther was her grown child then a recognition when she saw Esther - Need to find that but I thought when Guppy arranged with her to obtain and give her the letters there was something said then - maybe not,  but I thought there was more than just seeing Esther.

I guess with all the comments by Guppy that even though the painting was described as a lady with shawl and pedestal in the mid nineteenth century ladies of the evening were depicted with shawls and pedestals only in less than full attire. Seems unusual for a single man to have pictures of society ladies on his wall - but since the synopsis does not bring up the pictures as a source of history for Lady D. in must have been just that - a group of well dressed society ladies.

I do hope that Dickens fills us in when and how Sir Leicester met Lady D. so that we can put it together with her giving birth to Esther.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1065 on: May 14, 2012, 09:36:23 PM »
Thanks, Barbara. I wonder if people in Dickens' time were not as focused on some of the background details of the book, as we are today.

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1066 on: May 14, 2012, 10:43:25 PM »
I'll add what little I can to the details.  A footnote in my book says of Jobling's portrait of Lady D, from the Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty, that books featuring portraits of ladies of fashion were quite popular, and one of them was titled The Book of Beauty, or Regal Gallery.

In their one meeting, Lady D tells Esther that she did not recognize Esther when she saw her in church, was struck by something without knowing what, and only much later learned who Esther was.  (She learned from Guppy.  When he came to her with an offer of the letters, he said he had learned that Esther's real last name was Hawdon.)

I can't find it now, but somewhere someone says that Honoria (who would become Lady D) had been engaged to Captain Hawdon.  That would put their affair before her marriage.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1067 on: May 15, 2012, 12:08:52 AM »
Looks like you both found the Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty was for sure pictures of ladies of fashion - almost like pages from the Godey’s Lady’s Book.

OK Found it... just as you have said...
Quote
But what Mr. Weevle prizes most of all his few possessions (next after his light whiskers, for which he has an attachment that only whiskers can awaken in the breast of man) is a choice collection of copper-plate impressions from that truly national work The Divinities of Albion, or Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty, representing ladies of title and fashion in every variety of smirk that art, combined with capital, is capable of producing. With these magnificent portraits, unworthily confined in a band-box during his seclusion among the market-gardens, he decorates his apartment; and as the Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty wears every variety of fancy dress, plays every variety of musical instrument, fondles every variety of dog, ogles every variety of prospect, and is backed up by every variety of flower-pot and balustrade, the result is very imposing.

But fashion is Mr. Weevle's, as it was Tony Jobling's, weakness...
To know what member of what brilliant and distinguished circle accomplished the brilliant and distinguished feat of joining it yesterday or contemplates the no less brilliant and distinguished feat of leaving it to-morrow gives him a thrill of joy. To be informed what the Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty is about, and means to be about, and what Galaxy marriages are on the tapis, and what Galaxy rumours are in circulation, is to become acquainted with the most glorious destinies of mankind. Mr. Weevle reverts from this intelligence to the Galaxy portraits implicated, and seems to know the originals, and to be known of them.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1068 on: May 15, 2012, 12:45:45 AM »
Here we go - Lady D. learns that Esther is her daughter from Guppy...

Quote
"I am not aware," says Mr. Guppy, standing midway between my Lady and his chair, "whether your ladyship ever happened to hear of, or to see, a young lady of the name of Miss Esther Summerson."

My Lady's eyes look at him full. "I saw a young lady of that name not long ago. This past autumn."

"Now, did it strike your ladyship that she was like anybody?" asks Mr. Guppy, crossing his arms, holding his head on one side, and scratching the corner of his mouth with his memoranda.

My Lady removes her eyes from him no more.

"No."

"Not like your ladyship's family?"

"No."

"I think your ladyship," says Mr. Guppy, "can hardly remember Miss Summerson's face?"

"I remember the young lady very well. What has this to do with me?"

"Your ladyship, I do assure you that having Miss Summerson's image imprinted on my 'eart--which I mention in confidence--I found, when I had the honour of going over your ladyship's mansion of Chesney
Wold while on a short out in the county of Lincolnshire with a friend, such a resemblance between Miss Esther Summerson and your ladyship's own portrait that it completely knocked me over, so much so that I didn't at the moment even know what it WAS that knocked me over. And now I have the honour of beholding your ladyship near (I have often, since that, taken the liberty of looking at your ladyship in your carriage in the park, when I dare say you was not aware of me, but I never saw your ladyship so near), it's really more surprising than I thought it."

Quote
"Your ladyship, there is a mystery about Miss Esther Summerson's birth and bringing up. I am informed of that fact because--which I mention in confidence--I know it in the way of my profession at Kenge and Carboy's. Now, as I have already mentioned to your ladyship, Miss Summerson's image is imprinted on my 'eart. If I could clear this mystery for her, or prove her to be well related, or find that having the honour to be a remote branch of your ladyship's family she had a right to be made a party in Jarndyce and Jarndyce, why, I might make a sort of a claim upon Miss Summerson to look with an eye of more dedicated favour on my proposals than she has exactly done as yet. In fact, as yet she hasn't favoured them at all."

Quote
"Now, it's a very singular circumstance, your ladyship," says Mr. Guppy, "though one of those circumstances that do fall in the way of us professional men--which I may call myself, for though not admitted, yet I have had a present of my articles made to me by Kenge and Carboy, on my mother's advancing from the principal of her little income the money for the stamp, which comes heavy--that I have encountered the person who lived as servant with the lady who brought Miss Summerson up before Mr. Jarndyce took charge of her. That lady was a Miss Barbary, your ladyship."

Quote
"Did your ladyship," says Mr. Guppy, "ever happen to hear of Miss Barbary?"

"I don't know. I think so. Yes."

"Was Miss Barbary at all connected with your ladyship's family?"

My Lady's lips move, but they utter nothing. She shakes her head.

"NOT connected?" says Mr. Guppy. "Oh! Not to your ladyship's knowledge, perhaps? Ah! But might be? Yes." After each of these interrogatories, she has inclined her head. "Very good! Now, this Miss Barbary was extremely close--seems to have been extraordinarily close for a female, females being generally (in common life at least) rather given to conversation--and my witness never had an idea whether she possessed a single relative. On one occasion, and only one, she seems to have been confidential to my witness on a single point, and she then told her that the little girl's real name was not Esther Summerson, but Esther Hawdon."

"My God!"

Mr. Guppy stares. Lady Dedlock sits before him looking him through, with the same dark shade upon her face, in the same attitude even to the holding of the screen, with her lips a little apart, her brow a little contracted, but for the moment dead.

Quote
"Your ladyship is acquainted with the name of Hawdon?"

"I have heard it before."

"Name of any collateral or remote branch of your ladyship's
family?"

"No."

"Now, your ladyship," says Mr. Guppy, "I come to the last point of the case, so far as I have got it up. It's going on, and I shall gather it up closer and closer as it goes on. Your ladyship must know--if your ladyship don't happen, by any chance, to know already--that there was found dead at the house of a person named
Krook, near Chancery Lane, some time ago, a law-writer in great distress. Upon which law-writer there was an inquest, and which law-writer was an anonymous character, his name being unknown. But, your ladyship, I have discovered very lately that that law- writer's name was Hawdon."

Quote
"It was supposed, your ladyship, that he left no rag or scrap behind him by which he could be possibly identified. But he did. He left a bundle of old letters."

Quote
"Your ladyship, I conclude with that." Mr. Guppy rises. "If you think there's enough in this chain of circumstances put together-- in the undoubted strong likeness of this young lady to your ladyship, which is a positive fact for a jury; in her having been brought up by Miss Barbary; in Miss Barbary stating Miss Summerson's real name to be Hawdon; in your ladyship's knowing both these names VERY WELL; and in Hawdon's dying as he did--to give your ladyship a family interest in going further into the case, I will bring these papers here.

Quote
Is this the full purpose of the young man of the name of Guppy, or has he any other? Do his words disclose the length, breadth, depth, of his object and suspicion in coming here; or if not, what do they hide? He is a match for my Lady there. She may look at him, but he can look at the table and keep that witness-box face of his from telling anything.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1069 on: May 15, 2012, 12:57:08 AM »
What I found interesting about this exchange it reminds me of how Bucket springs the trap - the build up - the step by step asking questions bringing the reader along with the one in the story being brought into the mystery, untangling bit by bit but not enough to let on there is a climax - the trap - In this case I think it is the letters - the secret of and in the letters -

From here on the story revolves around those letters - who has them, who knows about them, what secrets are written in them, how they connect Lady Deadlock to Captain Hawdon.

Like the first marks in a set of quotation-marks, Guppy, with a similar build-up opens the the quote that is closed with Bucket springing the trap on Hortense - when Hortense is trapped we know Sir Leicester knows the secret that Lady Deadlock, from the time of Guppy's visit, was trying to keep from his learning. During these two build ups, one by Guppy and then Bucket, Lady Deadlock was outwardly trying to obtain and hide her letters to her Captain from Sir Leicester Deadlock.

Added to the concept of quotes Leicester Deadlock was in the room when Guppy was announced and out of politeness and respect for Lady Deadlock he left before Guppy built his case. And so Sir Leicester was present just before and during the closing of these symbolic quotation marks.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1070 on: May 15, 2012, 09:15:28 AM »
 I was  happy to see that Richard Carstone still drew the line somewhere.  Ada had come into
her fortune and offered it to him, but he would not take it.  By then, I was convinced he
would be trying to persuade her to give it to him,  since in his mind he believed he was
acting for her as well. He still has enough good sense not to take her money from her. Alas,
he had not the good sense to choose not to marry her.

 JOAN, it seemed to me that what Sir Leicester feared re. his sister, was her inability to
keep quiet. It's hard to 'contain the damage' with an inveterate blabbermouth in the family.

 Considering how Lady Dedlock's sister schemed to keep the pregnancy secret, BARB, I am
assuming the whole thing was over and past before Sir Leicester came on the scene,...at
least as a suitor. It would have been a rare woman indeed, in those days, who would have
told her suitor the entire story, unnecessarily, and condemned herself forever socially.

"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1071 on: May 15, 2012, 07:38:42 PM »
Babi, I'm getting the impression that when Richard married Ada, her assets became his too. I do think he's spending her money. He has no more of his own.

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1072 on: May 15, 2012, 08:00:41 PM »
I got that same impression. he wouldn't take her money while they weren't married: that's why she married him, so that he would take it. And he does.

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1073 on: May 16, 2012, 01:43:22 AM »
I thought that we got some comic relief with the meeting with Snagsby, Mrs. Snagsby and Guster. The dialog paints a very humorous situation:

" “My little woman,” said Mr Snagsby, entering behind us, “to wave — not to put too fine a point upon it, my dear — hostilities, for one single moment, in the course of this prolonged night, here is Inspector Bucket, Mr Woodcourt, and a lady.”

She looked very much astonished, as she had reason for doing, and looked particularly hard at me.

“My little woman,” said Mr Snagsby, sitting down in the remotest corner by the door, as if he were taking a liberty, “it is not unlikely that you may inquire of me why Inspector Bucket, Mr Woodcourt, and a lady call upon us in Cook’s Court, Cursitor Street, at the present hour. I don’t know. I have not the least idea. If I was to be informed, I should despair of understanding, and I’d rather not be told.”

He appeared so miserable, sitting with his head upon his hand, and I appeared so unwelcome, that I was going to offer an apology, when Mr Bucket took the matter on himself.

“Now, Mr Snagsby,” said he, “the best thing you can do, is to go along with Mr Woodcourt to look after your Guster—”

“My Guster, Mr Bucket!” cried Mr Snagsby. “Go on, sir, go on. I shall be charged with that next.”

“And to hold the candle,” pursued Mr Bucket without correcting himself, “or hold her, or make yourself useful in any way you’re asked. Which there’s not a man alive more ready to do; for you’re a man of urbanity and suavity, you know, and you’ve got the sort of heart that can feel for another. (Mr Woodcourt, would you be so good as see to her, and if you can get that letter from her, to let me have it as soon as ever you can?)”

As they went out, Mr Bucket made me sit down in a corner by the fire, and take off my wet shoes, which he turned up to dry upon the fender; talking all the time.

“Don’t you be at all put out, miss, by the want of a hospitable look from Mrs Snagsby there, because she’s under a mistake altogether. She’ll find that out, sooner than will be agreeable to a lady of her generally correct manner of forming her thoughts, because I’m a going to explain it to her.” Here, standing on the hearth with his wet hat and shawls in his hand, himself a pile of wet, he turned to Mrs Snagsby. “Now, the first thing that I say to you, as a married woman possessing what you may call charms, you know — ‘Believe me, if All Those Endearing,’ and cetrer’ — you’re well acquainted with the song, because it’s in vain for you to tell me that you and good society are strangers — charms — attractions, mind you, that ought to give you confidence in yourself — is, that you’ve done it.”

Mrs Snagsby looked rather alarmed, relented a little, and faltered, what did Mr Bucket mean.

“What does Mr Bucket mean?” he repeated; and I saw, by his face, that all the time he talked he was listening for the discovery of the letter — to my own great agitation; for I knew then how important it must be; “I’ll tell you what he means, ma’am. Go and see Othello acted. That’s the tragedy for you.” "

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1074 on: May 16, 2012, 08:57:53 AM »
 I was so relieved, for Mr. Snagsby's sake, that Detective Bucket set 'the little woman' straight.
He's such a nice man; he didn't deserve the grief she was giving him.
  It appears there might be some hope of better treatment for 'Guster' after all this.  Mrs.
Snagsby is being given considerble...and much deserved...food for thought.  But every delay
racks the tension up a bit higher, and the hope of rescuing Lady Dedlock appears dimmer.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1075 on: May 16, 2012, 10:31:51 AM »
Quote
Go and see Othello acted. That’s the tragedy for you.
My first reaction to the many references to Shakespeare was that  Dickens was quite well read for someone who hadn't much of an education.   But Mr. Bucket is telling Mrs. Snagsby to go see Othello.  This is London!  Mid-century Victorians were not reading Shakespeare, they were attending the plays, the rich and  poor alike.
Dickens' readers were quite familiar with every reference he made to the plays and able to appreciate  his humor and the irony.  Just when things get quite dramatic, (melodramatic), he seems to insert a humorous scene such as this one.  I especially liked Mr. Guppy's  renewed proposal to Esther in this final Installment.
But yes, Babi, this was a delay.  Time is wasting away.  I had the feeling every time they stopped that they weren't going to find Lady D in time.  But really, truly, did not expect to find that she died without words with Esther - about her father.  Does Esther know her father's identity at this point?


JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1076 on: May 16, 2012, 10:39:40 AM »
THE FINAL INSTALLMENT!   Can you believe it!  Have you finished it?  I am so eager to hear your reaction to these final chapters...and can't help but wonder how our reactions differ from Dickens' readers who have followed these characters for over a year.  We've put a few questions in the heading, but surely you have more.  There were 7 chapters, short ones.  I'll try to take them in the order they appeared, just to be sure we don't miss the revelations in each chapter.

In the last installment, we left Esther, as she discovered her mother's dead body at her father's burial site. We've been waiting a month for the next installment to see how Esther responds to this traumatic experience.  How will Dickens go on from there? 

I'm not exactly sure why this opening chapter is called "Perspective" - are you?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1077 on: May 16, 2012, 10:58:44 AM »
Not much being said is there about how Esther feels except she must have taken to her bed for a bit - there did not seem to be much emotion when Woodcourt declares his love - in fact this whole bit feels so anti-climactic with little real feelings except you get a sense that Esther feels safe and comfortable at Bleak House with John Jarndyce. And what was the bit all about with John Jarndyce not meeting Esther when she was leaving to go home from Ada and Richard's rooms. With Mrs. Woodcourt not at home either - strange.

As to Richard, no named illness but flagging and there is Ada the typical 'good' wife doing all she can - great example of co-dependency rather than love. But then at this time in history she has few choices.

Vholes isn't any more likable but he does not sound as much like a vampire rather, an unfeeling professional who is all about the intricacies of the law - what all that was about that Richard should not have married - he kept repeating it as if there was anything that could reverse that fact.

After all the dripple Skimpole spouts off to Esther I still am not sure why he decides to step away from Richard - the only thing I can see is if Richard is as poor as Esther is intimating then there is nothing in it for him.  

It all feels like Dickens is hurrying up and tying up the package so it can be delivered complete - not only is there no narrative woven to enlarge some of these issues we have seen through much of the story but the characters are like paper dolls - well maybe things pick up again - I finished where Woodcourt left and Esther looking out the window after him is dwelling on how she feels she has it made as compared to Woodcourt.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1078 on: May 16, 2012, 12:35:43 PM »
Well, I have returned from vacation. and had expected that the discussion would have been concluded. Instead I had before me a long and insightful series of posts which took quite a while to catch up on.

Only after a ten day break could I appreciate how clever and sometimes brilliant this discussion is. Even Dickens would have been impressed.

In Ashland Oregon we saw four plays and also visited Crater Lake which was surrounde by 14 feet of snow.  What a shock that was. The Mountains and woods were snow covered for miles and miles.
The Festival has changed since I was last there 15 years ago. Ashland has changed. There are now four theatres and half the plays presented are not Shakespeare but others, old and new.
Troilus and Cressida was displaced to the war in Iraq and Romeo and Juliet was set in Mexican territory  inside the U.S. border in 1840. We also saw "The Seagull" by Chekhov and a new Chinese /American play "The White Snake".


marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1079 on: May 16, 2012, 06:37:07 PM »
Welcome back, Jude! I hope that the 'different' Ashland was still a good experience. Yikes, 14 ft of snow!!

I'm so glad that you came back in time to join us for our last days of this discussion. Your insights are among the clever and brilliant.

Barbara, I got the impression and John Jarndyce and Mrs. Woodcourt have left Esther and Mr. Woodcourt to themselves intentionally to permit Woodcourt to declare his feelings for Esther. Esther is still "engaged" to Jarndyce when Woodcourt tells her that he has always loved her. She doesn't feel free to reciprocate, though she admits to herself how happy she is to know of his feelings for her, to which they must now both say goodbye (she believes).