Travels with Herodotus by Ryszard Kapuscinski

[JoanP]

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Travels with Herodotus
Ryszard Kapuscinski

"We struggle against time, against the fragility of memory … If we don’t write down what we learn and experience, that which we carry within will perish when we die." Ryszard Kapuscinski Part autobiography, part literary criticism and part meditation, Travels with Herodotus tells the story of two intertwined journeys: the author's literal voyages across the globe, and his pursuit of Herodotus, the Greek historiographer who reported from foreign lands in the fifth century BC.  And Kapuscinski brings Herodotus to life, showing again just what a superlative writer he is. He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated.        Sara Wheeler  The Guardian

                                                                                                                            

Discussion Schedule: Jan. 4-12     Crossing the Border up to Memory Along the Roadways of the World Jan. 13-17     Memory Along the Roadways of the World up to Among Dead Kings Jan. 18-24    Among Dead Kings up to Time Vanishes         Jan. 25-31   Time Vanishes to end of last chapter, We Stand in Darkness

For Your Consideration
January 13-17

1. When in winter we gather around our fires our storytellers are more likely to be on TV but how about when a storm shuts down the electricity or if you are around an outdoor fire, who tells the stories and what kind of stories are told?

2. We learn from a quote by Herodotus why he traveled and wrote – what he was seeking to learn. Did Kapuscinski retrace the steps of Herodotus? Did he alter his curiosities during his travels because of this 2500-year-old travel companion, Herodotus,  or did any of his first-hand encounters in India and China change his attitude or curiosities?

3. Kapuscinski devotes two chapters to repeating the writing of Herodotus as if introducing us to his travel companion  -  ‘Kapuscinski telling fireside stories’ – Does either Kapus or Herodotus tell us how the lives of people are intimately connected to the rhythms of nature—to weather, geography, the cycle of the seasons?

4. Kapus flys over and sees the Nile for the first time in 1960 – what was happening elsewhere in the World in 1960? Can you remember what was important in the US in 1960, or do you remember reading about Nasser or in 1960 what did you know about a Muslim?

5.  How does Kapuscinski portray his living under Communist rule while he travels in Egypt

6.  Were you taken by surprise or did you suspect the outcome at the Mosque? While traveling have you ever had your trust betrayed?

7.  As he tells us in short reviews the places and people Herodotus writes about, are some of the places and people new to you?  Why do you think Kapus included these particular stories from Herodotus in his book?

8.  How does Kapus describe moving about in an unreal world with dead ends and misleading signs?

9.  Other travelers wrote of their experiences. The tone of their writing by those reviewing the book guides us what to expect – example:
     - Brilliant comic musing about feeling strange - Bill Bryson
     - Sense of freedom or longing in Jack Kerouac's - On The Road
     - Funny, sorrowful, and suspenseful, James Joyce’s - Ulysses
     - The tastes and pleasures of a foreign country told with gusto and passion, Frances Mayes - Under the Tuscan Sun
     - Courage, skill, and determination, Joshua Slocum - Sailing Alone around the World[/li][/list]
     - A stunning evocation of America on the eve of a tumultuous decade in Steinbeck’s Travels with Charley
  ~ How would you describe Kupuscinski’s tone and intent?

10.  Would you have liked to meet either Kapuscinski or Herodotus? What would you ask them? Are these authors offering us a self-portrait without writing an autobiography?

11.  If there were one travel companion you could resurrect, who would that be and why?

12. If you had the chance to go back and re-live any travel experience, what day would it be and why?

Discussion Leaders: JoanK , JoanP, Barbara  

[kidsal]

Temptation?  I say curiosity.  That which drives scientists, reporters, adventurers, and common folk like me.  It is sad to meet someone without it.  How much they are missing!

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, kidsal curiosity does seem appropriate - I am thinking temptation may be a word from the book which would be an interesting throw back to his spending most of his life behind the wall first with Germany and then with Russia ruling the roost. With what we know of  both controlling nations I bet Kapuscinski would be grounded in the concept that travel is a temptation like taking a bite of forbidden fruit.

I thought it would be fun to look up the town he speaks of as an example of having bare shelves. Put Chodów in the Google Map and find there is more than one Chodów - one in Greater Poland and one in Lower Poland - what in the world I never heard of an upper and lower - what is the difference - how did this happen - well Poland sure has been through the mill - the info on Lower and Greater are here and wow what a story. I did not know that after the war many German speaking Poles were relocated to Bavaria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Silesia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Silesia

[Babi]

 My impression so far, BARB, is that only curious minds would read the book. Other than
K's observations and his explanations of what he couldn't see/do, there's not much too it.
He writes well, but so far he hasn't really said a great deal worth writing about.

  Li's job, imo, is to see that our journalist sees only those things which reflect
well on China. They're not about to let him anywhere near any controversial areas or issues.
Why do you say, "If K. could have communicated with him.."?  They spoke Russian with one
another. Of course, neither one is being open and frank.

 I'm not seeing the East/West thing in Herodotus. The Persians were indo-european, not
asiatic. And I don't think he saw the Greeks as all good or the Persians as all evil. He
just found everything new and interesting and loved to tell about it. But you may be better
informed on Herodotus, so I'm not hidebound in my opinion.

 ELLA, I do hope that K will eventually cross some borders that will allow him to give more
point and purpose to the book.

[JoanP]

You have to feel for Kapus - he wants to do his job, he wants to report, but is not finding the current stories that he hoped to write about.  In India, he faces the language barrier...the only events he writes about are those he finds in old books, published twenty or thirty years before, like Tagore's book describing how he would rise at dawn to sing the Upanishads with his father.  This seems to be Kapus' way of learning about the Indian people...from old books.  I'm wondering what language he is reading.

Babi - I forgot that Li speaks Russian.  So he and Kapus do have a common language.  We find out at the end of the China section, that East/West friction was responsible for  keeping Kapus. from any information of note...no wonder he had nothing to write home about.

" I'm not seeing the East/West thing in Herodotus. The Persians were indo-european, not asiatic."

Babi...I was reading the introductory chapters in Herodotus' Histories.  There was no Europe at this time.  The center of Herodotus' world was the Aegean Sea.  He liked to explore to the West, Greece and to the East, Persia.  The real hostilities at the time were between Greece and Persia.  Herodotus' goal was to track down the reasons for hostilies...the reasons for war.

I continue to be stunned at the realization that Herodotus fraternizes with Socrates, Pericles and Sophocles when he lived in Athens.  I mean, I knew he was Greek...but imagining conversations with these men - brings him to life, doesn't it?  Because he wasn't pure Greek, he was forced to leave Athens, but still, to know he was in their company for a short time makes a difference.

[Babi]

 Of course, you are quite right, JOANP.  For Herodotus, Persia was 'east'.  I do think there
were things he admired about the Persians, tho'. Or perhaps, specific Persians. The good/evil dividing line is, I suspect, what bothers me. They were enemies, and in the general run of things the public is informed about what awful people their enemies are. I would hope a good historian would take a less distorted view and present the facts, good or bad.

  It appears K is going to have even less opportunity of reporting current history in China
than he did in India. Mr. Li proves to be as much a wall between China and K as any great
wall could ever hope to be.  I do wonder how the Chinese journalist to Poland did, IF they
ever sent him.   I mean, just think of all the contamination he could pick up, being allowed
to go about, observe and talk with people.  Tsk, tsk.

[BarbStAubrey]

So far one of my favorite bits is the bit explaining from Yogi Ramacharka that Breathing... is the most important activity performed by man, because through it we communicate with the world. Several books mentioned that I want to read now-  and interesting he does not know English and so he is seeing everything through other rhythms of sound as well as other traditions - which at this point in time I wonder how much of Poland's history he is familiar - how much was Polish history taught although we understand in the first chapter he had a pretty good exposure to the Classical Greek society.

He asks an interesting question that could easily be a topic for us in the US today - Did he believe a European (US English) language to be more important than those languages of this country in which he was (others are) then a guest! Some in the US see other languages as an offense to the dignity of the US suggesting English is a delicate and important matter. I wonder if those who support 'English Only' are equally as prepared to give up their life in the defense of their language, to burn on the pyre. We do not seem to take on those drastic measures do we. But then we were never subjected to a powerful nation with a very different culture ruling over us.

[JoanK]

It's nice for us that Emglish is so widely used. But I'm sure that other languages are just as rich, even richer. Chinese has been used for so long, it should be very rich.

It's interesting where English is rich. And where it isn't. They say that Eskimos have many different words for snow. But English has only one word for "love". So we "love" pizza and "love" our children. What does that say about us?

[BarbStAubrey]

I like that he travels to the small cities - not something you think of as the way a reporter goes about his job but as a traveler great - that is what I loved doing when I traveled - I thought I was getting a feel that a big city with all its museums etc. was catering to tourists.

I loved the bit where he had expectations for his time in China and none of it happened. Have you ever been disappointed traveling a long way and not being able to see and do what you had expected?

[Babi]

  Speaking of language, I tried to find a translation of the "horrendous" error of misusing
'eng' and 'ong', but they would not translate.  That bad, huh?

  I greatly appreciated K's summary of Confucianism and Taoism. I know very little about
those two; mostly just wise epigrams. It's interesting, tho', that all of the Asiatic religions
that emerged about that time emphasized the need for humility.  That is a trait not much
valued in Western culture, and we could probably use a good dose of it.

[JoanP]

"the need for humility"

Babi, as I read Herodotus' Histories, I'm finding the need for humility his key principle. Humility and moderation - in everything.   When humility is lost, so is the cause.  When a king, a people become arrogant and feel superior to others, they are sure to fall just as they are reaching their dream of dominance.   What a history lesson!  Have we learned it?

Herodotus method of reporting - walk among the people, listen, record, compare their accounts with other stories he has heard.  Imagine Kapus reading about  this method and finding that he is unable to communicate because of the language barrier. You can see that he is giving up in India - and China too...though he is learning a lot from books, this is not what he really wants to do.  Wasn't it fortunate for him that he was called home - removed from the need to quit.  I thought he was going to continue trying...thinking that this was his assignment.  And continue being frustrated.

Do you think he's going to give up trying to learn English?  Funny that he preferred Hemingway's dialog - the descriptive paragraphs were way too complicated.  Imagine trying to learn English like this?   He seemed to come to the realization that it was more important to learn the language of the inhabitants - and that most of them did not speak English...
 

[rich7]

Herodotus sought to learn the reason for war.

I heard a new theory on that question...New for me, anyway. (Babi ,I'm working on my need for humility.)

It seems that wars arose in human development when we began transitioning from a hunting-gathering society to a farming society.  As hunter-gatherers we had little property other than what we could carry in our hands or on our back.  As farmers, we had property (A patch of growing  vegetables or domesticated fowl.)  Now we had something worth taking and, presumably, worth defending. Families might group together for mutual defense.  Other, more aggressive bands might group together to try to take their property from them. 

If a leader emerges as a good defender or good marauder, he becomes chief.  If the association of people (good or bad) is large enough, the leader is king, and we're off to the races! 

Rich       

[Frybabe]

I'm thinking that skirmishes were going on before the farming phase because of competition between family units or tribes competing for the same food and water resources (and raids to secure fecund women). I doubt that anyone would call those wars though, even if they escalated into a blood feud between groups.

Oops! Company, gotta run.

[Frybabe]

Okay, I'm back. Rich, where would you place nomadic tribes like the American Plains Indians who were not farmers, but followed the migrations of the buffalo? They had their hunting "territories" and regularly warred with their neighbors. I think the tribes the Asian steppes did similar. I don't know about African tribes, except for the bushmen. I think when farming and permanent settlements became common wars certainly took on a whole new aspect.

Tomorrow I guess we start on the next section. Now K really starts to shine with his narrative, no longer focused on him but Herodotus himself.

[JoanP]

Fry, keep an eye on the discussion schedule in the header...we start the next section on the 13th - on Sunday.  Added extra day when we added Chinese Thought to this week...a more natural break.

Good point about the nomadic Indians.  We'll be getting more into warring in the next section with Kapus' next assignment.

[JoanK]

"They had their hunting "territories" and regularly warred with their neighbors."

Perhaps "territories" are the key, whether they are famland or hunting territories. Just last week, I was watching two snowy egrets fighting, because one tried to invade the other's fishing territory. The newcomer was chased untile he was the other side of a barrior, then both settled down to fish. I didn't stay: if one was catching all the fish, I wonder if the other would have renewed the fight.

(I didn't capture it on film, but this was close to what i saw:)

http://rosswarner.com/1481.html

[JoanK]

Tomorrow is the last day of this selection. it has sure raised a lot of questions. Do post any last thoughts before we go on on Sunday.

[PatH]

It's interesting where English is rich. And where it isn't. They say that Eskimos have many different words for snow. But English has only one word for "love". So we "love" pizza and "love" our children. What does that say about us?

We may only have one word for "love", but on the whole English is a remarkably rich language, with a much bigger vocabulary than some other European languages.  I love this complexity of our language.  I love that there are often many words meaning almost the same thing but with different connotations or shades of meaning, allowing for great subtlety in how we can say something.  (I make no claim to subtlety in my own speech, but enjoy it in others.)

[PatH]

Lack of ability to speak the local languages frustrates Kapuscinski in his attempts to understand, or even talk to, the peoples of the countries he visits.  IMHO, a feel for the language of a country is an important part of understanding the way of thinking.  Different languages have different logics, assumptions, tones, mindsets.  I'm not a linguist, but I've seen these different styles in the languages I know to some extent.  A striking example is Hungarian (no, I don't know Hungarian).  It's claimed that the reason there are so many outstanding Hungarian mathematicians is because the logic of the language is mathematical.  One of my daughters learned some Hungarian in preparation for a semester abroad (in math) and she said it's true that the language has a mathematical logic to it.

Which came first, the mindset of a people or the mindset of their language, I can't imagine, but I can see it must be harder to think in ways that your language doesn't make easy.

[BarbStAubrey]

Hmm when he talks about the wall - I wonder if he and many of misinterpret - there is the notion that building walls you have to be careful what you wall in and what you wall out but I became aware of an group think that I was not aware of that is typical Chinese that I wonder if it is a mode of operation in other work and decision areas.

Some years ago - 15 or 16 years ago I worked with the start of a long line of referrals (over 45) that are Chinese from China, Hong Cong (when it was separate), Taiwan, Singapore, Korea, Viet Nam and at least 25 Chinese families from Indonesia.  Two things were consistent regardless from the Communistic mainland or a more democrats society.  

1. of those who were not Christian and some who were but hung on to the old ways consulted a book that had all these signs and what to do on a daily basis - they would never sign an offer without consulting their book which took hours - after looking for and finding a house there is much trust built up so I was privileged to see this activity. The book comes out picking and analyzing an Inspector's report, on and on, Kapus probably was not aware that a meeting was to establish an introduction with any decision only made after a reference to this book - or another example...

2. All, Every, Young, Old, never made a decision without calling the member of the family who holds the purse strings  - from every one of the Asian clients, not Indian, I worked with I learned the entire family - brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents all put their money in one account that a member of the family is responsible to over see, send out the monthly stipend, pay taxes, and made some decisions about an investment where as the larger decisions are made as a group with plans for future investing in a big ticket discussed with enough heads up for everyone to see the merits of the over all idea of the investment - Everyones salary goes to the account and an agreed upon stipend is wired back to their account. That is why they always had the highest scores easily able to be approved easily for any loan - here in the US loan officers assume the bank account is for the one I am working with and have no clue.

Often we were in a hot market that we could not proceed making an offer till after they talked long distance to someone in Jakarta or Taipei City or Changping.

Typically we would be writing something up at 8: or  9: in the evening when it is 4: in the morning Jakarta time - so I had to wait till the next day and then meet them outside their office during lunch time and get it to the other agent a full 14 to 16 hours later so that we lost a few houses just because of the time it took to get what happens inside those walls accomplished.

I do not know but I wonder how many other decisions can only be made after a group confab and so, no one says anything of any substance during a meeting.

[Frybabe]

Babi, I wonder if they were using the I Ching? I had the book until recently - decided after many years and not read that I lost interest in it. The other possibility would be Feng Shui which was very popular for a while, here at least. I Ching is a method of divination, Feng Shui as I understand it, involves balancing energy for got health. I think of the latter as more of a home decorating thing, like where to place furniture to best advantage for health.

[Babi]

 That seems a reasonable premise, RICH. The more settled people became, the more they
had that was desirable that they needed to protect. Then, don't you think wars became
more widespread as these settled communities grew and became crowded. The need to expand borders, the desire to leave a harsh environment for one more comfortable?
 At least those needs and desires were more understandable. Promoting wars purely from
vengeance, or to profit from the sale of arms, or pursuit of power.... ugh.
 
 FRYBABE, wouldn't the hunting 'territory' be equally valuable and desirable? It is still
a matter of protecting the source of all they rely on for survival.  I see JOANK makes the
same observation.
 Oh, that was BARB who mentioned a book the Chinese consulted. I'm sure she will answer
your question when she comes back in. The 'I Ching' sounds like a reasonable assumption.

[JoanP]

Herodotus attempts to learn the cause of war.  Do you think it's the desire to protect from  those outside the wall - or the desire to conquer and achieve greatness?  As I type, I'm thinking the answer has to be combination of the two.  The real question seems to be what motivates the desire to conquer.

"Lack of ability to speak the local languages frustrates Kapuscinski in his attempts to understand, or even talk to, the peoples of the countries he visits."  PatH

Clearly Kapuscinski is frustrated in his attempts to communicate with those he most wants to interview.  Imagine when he turns to Herodotus' Histories and reads of Herodotus' methods...to wander among the people, to observe, to listen, to compare and to write down what he learns.  I understand that the Greek language was universal at the time - even when Herodotus crossed borders, there were colonies of Greek-speaking people.  Does this mean that Herodotus did not encounter that GREAT WALL of a language barrier?

One similarity in their styles  - Kapuscinski is forced to observe people very closely to learn about them - because of the language barrier, he  observes behavior, facial expression, body language -  Does he learn this from Herodotus? Is he imitating Herodotus in the way he observes the Hindi and the Chinese?  This comparison is an outstanding feature of Herodotus' method of observing not only their differences, but more importantly arriving at their similarities.
Kapus writes of the young Confuscius seeking advice on how to live his life from Lao-Tzu and was told to "rid yourself of all flattery and excessive ambition."  Kapus concluded that the common denominator between Confuscianism and Taoism was the recommendation of humility and moderation.  Buddhism too.  This is striking, because Herodotus reaches the same conclusions observing the Persians and all those who wage war to achieve greatness and rule the world.  We'll read about them in the coming week.  

[Frybabe]

Sorry, Babi and Barb. I caught my mistake too late to fix it. I seem to get you two confused on occasion.

[Babi]

 I can't imagine why, FRYBABE.   The two 'BB's?   

[Frybabe]

And the A! 

[Frybabe]

I just loved the section where K was talking about oral history and passing stories along while around the campfire. I could almost see his eyes light up as if he were remembering such nights from his childhood. I certainly remember the outings 'round the campfire at night, marshmallows and hot dogs skewered on sticks.

On page 76, at the top, K says: "Culture was always an aristocratic enterprise. And wherever it departs from this principle it perishes as such."  I thought that an odd thing to say. But, then a little farther on he mentions again culture in the context of the culture of a people (all inclusive, not just aristocrats). So, the quoted line must refer to the refined arts generally supported by the wealthy as opposed to the latter which encompasses a whole group and is an integral part of their lives, their religious rites, mores, etc.

[BarbStAubrey]

Owww Frybabe, I like the lines you were attracted to  - re-reading again, the sentence before refers to writing and I am thinking it is suggesting only the aristocrats were able to write and maybe even read - Herodotus says the repository of memory was the individual.

I am remembering reading a Pearl S. Buck book that gave a picture of an Inn for travelers - one large room with raised platforms made from stone that a several had their spot - food was served but the more successful Inns were those who had the best story tellers - for several hours a story teller would drone on in a sing song fashion the news of the day and then a mythological story - some stories repeated often by various story-tellers and all stored in the story teller's memory. Then Chaucer has his stories about folks traveling which suggests while on those long journeys telling stories may be the way they passed the time. And the biggie is Homer, the original story teller that seems to me reading something about him going to gatherings to tell his stories.

So I bet he is suggesting that even in Poland it takes money to buy books and to get an education - we forget how in many countries education in not free but more he lived, at least during his youth, when free or not there was little available formal education.

How privileged we are and we take it so for granted to have free libraries and free education paid for by taxes from those who own property.  

[BarbStAubrey]

OH yes, it was not I Ching which requires throwing coins - and it was not Feng Shui which requires an elaborate wheel, really a 12 sided shape that gives the impression of a wheel - when I asked about the book I never got a clear title which suggested to me there was no easy English translation - some would say it was like our Bible of sorts and others would say it is a daily guide and still others said it was their book to secure prosperity and good fortune - the Thick book was laid out with part looking like one page of symbols and other pages were lined vertically with symbols (words) in each column - how the page to read was determined I do not know but they would go to various sections of the book before they felt confident to make a decision.

Then there is a whole other bit of to-do and not to-do - little by little I learned many of them

You do not buy a house where the street level is higher by the smallest slant to the house - nor a house that is at the top of a street or cul-de-sac because all the bad (luck) fortune comes into the house.

There really is no luck - there is a cause for everything and luck as we know it that represents 'a good thing coming as a surprise' does not exist.

You do not buy a house with the number address containing the number 4 because that means death. For prosperity, an 8 in the address is best. Red is 'the' good fortune color.

A kitchen must have the stove on the same wall or u shape as the sink rather than across from each other or separated by a place to walk through.

A house cannot have the back door in line with the front door because all the good fortune will come in and go right out. The stair well cannot be opposite the front door because the good fortune will be confused and stop at the door.

You do not buy a house with a stairwell in the center of the house because that breaks a marriage apart and a stair well that turns is best.

You do not buy a house that is orientated north and south especially the front door cannot be facing north - north is bad fortune. And a house on the north side of a hill is bad fortune.

A room with plumbing must be on an outside wall on and on it goes -

These are old traditional beliefs that I never learned the source - most of the folks I worked with labored to speak English - some the accent was thick and I asked them to write the most important things like their name. Helping people to choose a house  does not leave much time to chat about anything other than to help them focus on what is important to their future daily life.

[JoanK]

My house flunks several of those criteria: I've been happy in it, but I guess bad luck is coming.

[BarbStAubrey]

  Just means there will not be a Chinese family who every lives in the house unless they are several generations removed from the immigrant beginnings in this country.

[JoanK]

I love this book: it keeps giving me new things to think about. At the very beginning of this section: Herodotus writes "to prevent the traces of human events from being erased by time."

How much we, as we grow older, think about this, not wanting the traces of our lives to be erased by time as we see the people who remember what we do dying off.

[rich7]

One of the many things that distinguishes humans from animals is the fact that we pass on our knowledge of the past through written and oral traditions.

Ever wonder what knowledge mankind lost in the burning of the library of Alexandria?

Rich 

[rich7]

I used to tutor a Chinese graduate student in the English language and American culture.  The first time that he came to my house, he was shaking his head when he came through the front door.

"The walkway to your front door is very bad in Chinese feng shue tradition.  Your walkway is straight from the street to the door.  It should be curved.  Demons can only travel in straight lines.  Your walkway should be curved so they can never find your front door."

Rich

[Jonathan]

Fascinating, isn't it? The strange customs and traditions and thought habits one meets on travelling to far countries. So much useful information in conducting ones affairs. So many pitfalls in life. Chance, in its endless variations. So many supernatural forces to be avoided, directed or placated. The Egyptians were renowned for their expertise in the mysteries of life. The loss of information in the destruction of that library in Alexandria may have been truly awesome. Jesus, I have on good authority, a Talmud scholar, picked up much wisdom from Egyptian priests (they may have been struck by his aptitude) while sojourning there with his parents to escape the massacre at home, including the ability to bring the dead back to life.

[BarbStAubrey]

Thanks rich that is another to add to my collection of do's and don'ts - It is fascinating isn't it to learn what is important to others from various cultures -

JoanK your perception with Herrodotus not wanting the traces of our lives to disappear relating his intent to ourselves today makes you realize most writing and selling their life history are building their own monument and really writing their own elongated eulogy. Sounds awful when you say it that way but that is really what is happening.

Ah, both you rich and Jonathan remind us of the loss to humanity as a result of the library in Alexandria going up in flames. I remember there was a documentary about how papyrus burns but I forget, I think they said the size of the building - looking it up found this site that I had no idea these ancient libraries even existed much less the losses  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_destroyed_libraries

Yes, Jonathan when you hear the stories, Jesus sure was well traveled - the story goes that during those three years before his public life he spent time in the East and there is where he learned Meditation and Contemplation - I had not put it together the influence Egypt had but it makes sense.

Have any of you ever visited that part of the world and seen for yourself the areas that Kapus is telling us about?

[BarbStAubrey]

Frybabe I've been wracking my brains trying to remember story telling around a fire - we have had many a fire both in the fireplace and in the backyard as well in many woodland settings. I just keep coming up with memories of singing or just chit chatting - as a kid, I remember us throwing potatoes in the fire and eating them with some salt we threw in our pockets and with my children there was many a squirrel roasted skewed on a stick or a tomato from the garden skewed - the trick there was to catch it before the skin burst - no marshmallows though -  

When my son moved over to Magnolia the boys were 17 and 18 and now they are 21 and 22 living in Lubbock - from the time they moved in they had created a fire circle using a few of the fallen trees from a hurricane to make benches and they built these fires that lasted for weeks spending all their time out there chatting, being quiet and feeding the fire - they never seem to watch TV and only came in on their Father's day off to watch football, or baseball or a WWII video movie. Now when they visit first thing is to renew the fire.  My daughter's boys do a lot of camping - and the youngest for sure all they do is sing - two of his friends are in the glee club in college and the three of them before college were often called upon for entertainment at various events, but not as storytellers.

For us most stories are re-told around the dinner table especially when the family is visiting each other.  Even as a kid I remember learning about the family history around the dinner table or every week when my grandmother visited and my Mom stopped to make coffee or tea.  

Do any of you have memories of when family history was wheeled out with the astonishing tales often the start of the telling?

Come to think of it I wonder if that is why we have more history about wars - the experience of war sure provides an astonishing tale as opposed to preparing meals, growing children's experiences, building furniture or even fishing - the stuff of everyday life. Herodotus grabs attention first thing with his salacious tale of wars fought over who captures what women.

[JoanP]

My grandchildren seem to be more interested in hearing the stories of our family history than my sons are.  They are hungry for the smallest details of their father's and uncles' childhood.  Why is that, I wonder?  Maybe my sons grew up hearing stories from me - and the grandchildren do not hear as much.
 They love the humorous stories, the stories of when daddy was naughty.

I'm finding Kapuscinski more humorous in his story-telling as we move along in the book.  When he leaves China, Kapus returned to Poland - and to a new boss.  I thought it humorous the way he tells of the reason he is sent to the Far East and the Pacific Islands.  His "expertise" must be in the Far East, due to his experiences in India and China!  Is this an example of his humor?  Or is he simply trying to make us understand that he was unprepared for this new assignment, knowing nothing of revolts and rebellions.
  
I'm wondering if he found anything similar in Herodotus' Histories.
Kapus seems to be full of questions about what motivated Herodotus.. is there a parallel between the two of them?  Is Kapuscinski as interested to learn the reasons for the hostilities he encounters in Burma, Malaysia, the Congo as Herodotus was passionate in learning the reasons for the hostilities between the Greek and non-Greek communities.  I'm wondering too if we are as interested in learning the reasons for the unrest and differences in our time?  We want to resolve them, yes, but are we interested in discerning the causes?

[PatH]

Hmmm--so what feng shui rules am I violating?  My house faces north, my address has a 4 in it, it's level is very slightly lower than the street, my front walk is curved, but so slightly I doubt it would confuse a demon, my stairwell is in the middle of the house (never mind that the house was the site of the last 30 years of a very happy marriage).  At least I don't have the problem of a New York Times reporter a few years ago.  She had her apartment analyzed by several experts, and they all agreed on one thing.  There is a central point (don't know how you figure it) which is crucially important, and something good should be there.  This was where she had her cat litter box.

[PatH]

Herodotus starts off by talking about the abduction of women as a cause of war.  He quotes the Persians:  "Although the Persians regard the abduction of women as a criminal act, they also claim that it is stupid to get worked up about it and to seek revenge for the women once they have been abducted; the sensible course, they say, is to pay no attention to it, because it is obvious that the women must have been willing participants in their own abduction, or else it could never have happened.

Wow, some illogical "blame the victim" arguments have been around for a long time.