Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online

[JoanP]

 The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

January-February Book Club Online

Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell

Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece.  Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society. The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55.  Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.

You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg

Discussion Schedule: Part 2   Jan. 13 - Jan.22           Jan. 20- 22}           Chapter 18     Mr. Osborne's Secret         Chapter 19     Cynthia's Arrival         Chapter 20     Mrs Gibson's Visitors Part 3   Jan.23 - Feb.1     Jan.23 - Jan.29}         Chapter 21. The Half-Sisters         Chapter 22. The Old Squire's Troubles         Chapter 23. Osborne Hamley Reviews His Position         Chapter 24. Mrs Gibson's Little Dinner         Chapter 25. Hollingford In A Bustle         Chapter 26. A Charity Ball         Chapter 27. Father And Sons

Some Things to Think About
Chapters XXI-XXVII ~ January 23-Jan. 29(Father's agreement that Roger will represent the Hamleys)

Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.

CHAPTER XXI The Half Sisters
Which sister does Osborne come to visit? Could Cynthia and Roger possibly become interested in one another?  How would this affect Molly? Does she already notice an attraction between the two?
 
CHAPTER XXII. The Old Squire's Troubles
Do you see a way out of the squire's troubles? He's sold his timber, taken loans on his land. What is Osborne's reaction when he learns there is no more money for his trips? Would Roger have been able to help if he was home?

CHAPTER XXIII. Osborne Hamley Reviews His Position
Why can't Osborne just tell his father about  his wife and bring her home to the Hall?
Were you surprised at any of the options he considered to make a living?  How did Roger advise him?  

CHAPTER XXIV  Mrs. Gibson's Little Dinner
What more does Mrs. Gaskell reveal about Cynthia in this chapter?  Do you feel you know her any better? Did she really understand Roger's scientific explanation? Is her memory for poetry as prodigious as her mother brags? Does she really think of herself as a dunce?   Why does Mrs. Gibson say Molly is worth 20 of Cynthia?

CHAPTER XXV Hollingford in a Bustle
Did you enjoy Mrs. Gaskell's account of Clare's "luncheon" at the Tower before the ball and her later description when she returned home?  
Were you puzzled at Cynthia's fussing over Molly to make her attractive at the ball? Did she have an ulterior motive? When Molly wished she was pretty like Cynthia, were you surprised at Cynthia's response?

CHAPTER XXVI A Charity Ball
 What did you learn from the  gossipy old maids who attended the ball, regarding Mr. Preston, Clare and Cynthia?  Do you find him dangerous?
"One thing Mrs. Gibson hates - trying to pretend intimacy with great people."  Did this make you smile?
What sort of election is coming in June?  How will it affect Lord Hollingsworth?
"It was not an unsatisfactory ball upon the whole, to Mrs. Gibson."  Oh?  How many occasions did you count the lady's dissatisfaction at this ball?


CHAPTER XXVII Father and Sons
Why do you think  the Squire believes Lord Hollingsford invitation to Roger is some sort of whig trick?  Why is he furious with Roger? Were you surprised Roger decided not to accept the invitation?
Given his deep-rooted prejudices, will the Squire ever accept Osborne's French bride, whom Osborne regards as the future mistress of Hamley Hall? Do you understand where Osborne is spending his money now?



 

DLs: Marcie,  Joanp,  Barb,  Pedln

[bellamarie]

I am a bit confused as to what chapters to read for the week.  It says:
Jan. 20- 22} 
        Chapter 18     Mr. Osborne's Secret
        Chapter 19     Cynthia's Arrival
        Chapter 20     Mrs Gibson's Visitors

So are we only reading these three chapters and discussing them?  If so I will take on these questions for chapter 18:

CHAPTER XVIII. Mr. Osborne's Secret
What are your impressions of Osborne in this chapter?

I am actually surprised of my impression of Osborne now that he has arrived home, I'm finding myself feeling a bit sorry for him. He has gotten himself into a financial jam, but he is worried sick for his mother, and his father is giving him the cold shoulder, so he has only Molly and Roger to talk to.  Molly is very generous in not judging him, and listening to him.  It is a bit sad, Osborne has come home too late to have a visit with his mother.  They can't allow him to see her for fear it would upset her even more, resulting in a shorter time to live, yet even if he went into the room, with her under the sedation of the opiates, chances are she wouldn't be able to recognize him at all.  He was so very close to his mother, and he feels if she had been healthy, she could have helped him right things with his father.  Now, his father will hold him largely responsible for her death. My impression after reading this chapter, is that he is a smart, caring, well mannered guy. I can see why both his parents put so much praise on him.  They were justified in bragging, and expecting he would fill the position, heir to Hamley Hall.  But even knowing his secret, we still have a lot of unanswered questions, and his actions have caused undue stress on his family's health and finances. I am hoping there is a good enough explanation for these actions. 

Did you guess Osborne's secret? We are not given any details. What are your thoughts about the situation?

I did NOT guess Osborne's secret at all....I was actually shocked, when I read it.  Without given any details, it's a bit difficult to discuss it.  So, all I can say is, I am like Molly, trying to figure out who the wife could be, from possible clues along the way leading up to his arrival.  I actual in the back of my mind was thinking his wife could have been Cynthia, before she arrived.  Osborne was suppose to be at Cambridge and here we learn he has been traveling and no one can find him.   

What is the reaction of each of the Hamleys?

?? Unless I missed something, none of the Hamleys know he is married except Roger.  He of course has kept it a secret, and there is no indication as to how Roger really feels about this.  He has been loyal to his brother, to a fault!

What are Molly's feelings in leaving Hamley Hall?

In this particular chapter Molly does not want to leave Hamley Hall for fear Mrs. Hamley will wake up and ask for her, and if she is not there, she fears Mrs. Hamley will think of her as uncaring.  Molly wants to stay until Friday, hoping she will have one last visit with Mrs. Hamley before she has to leave or before Mrs. Hamley passes on.  It's so sad to have a loved one dying, and they do not recognize you any longer, or even are awake long enough to know you are there.  How will this effect Osborne, never being able to make things right with his mother, or being able for her to see he came home. 

Ciao for now~

[marcie]

Joan, I have the same typo in my text and a couple more like that which I've noticed.

Bellamarie, I too feel sorry for Osborne. I'm thinking that the expenses are for living arrangements for his wife.. not gambling or opiates or excessive self-indulgence. She must not have any money and might be an "unsuitable" match for other reasons -- why he has not being able to tell anyone but Roger (and now, molly).

What do you all think?

[bellamarie]

Marcie, Yes, I am sensing she is possibly beneath the family status.  I no longer feel it was on gambling or anything of excessive irresponsible behavior.  Possibly, an unplanned pregnancy??!

[pedln]

He must have got in with the wrong crowd, though not sure how this happened - away in the ivory, guess I mean, "ivied" tower of Cambridge.  Didn't think this sort of thing went on there.

I keep looking, but I don’t see evidence of this, have not seen anything about friends or pseudo-friends, wrong crowd,  who may have caused Osborne to so into debt.  The only thing we know for sure now is that he is married – and the only other person who knows this is Roger – until now.  I agree with Marcie, that his excessive spending is probably related to his wife and her needs.

Gaskell does a good job of keeping secrets.  From all of the background given, I would never have suspected a wife to be the reason for all of Osborne's activities.

[marcie]

Yes, Pedln, Gaskell does a good job moving the plot along in surprising ways. We learn of Osborne's secret when Molly learns it, by accident and then no more is said about it due to a promise to Osborne. What a good way to keep the suspense.

[Lucylibr]

Bellamarie: You have done a good job of going over the questions for this chapter. I am going to backtrack in my reading and reread some of the chapters that I have read. The book is so interesting it yields to more than one reading.

The somber atmosphere of this chapter created by the illness of Mrs. Hamley and Osborne's misdeeds that so alienate him from the family make this a sad part of the novel.  We share Molly's grief at having to leave her friend for the last time and her discomfort at leaving a place where she has been welcomed and of some help to a family and her discomfort with her own home. But notice how skillfully Mrs. Gaskell changes from this dark scene to the excitement and pleasure (at least from Molly and her father) at Cynthia's arrival; her youthful poise and striking beauty bring fresh new concerns to the story and dispel the sadness of the previous chapter.

Question: Do they have a funeral for Mrs. Hamley?  Did I miss this event?  (Blame it on the Kindle if I did!) I can't recall a funeral being mentioned, when the family and Molly and her father could say their final goodbye's to Mrs. Hamley and have some closure. I have no idea what funeral customs were in this period; if they were different from what we do today I am not aware of it.

[pedln]

Lucy, there is a funeral for Mrs. Hamley -- a brief reference made to that fact towards the end of Chpt. XIX, about Cynthia's arrival.  As you say, Mrs. Gaskell moving from the sad to the happy, the sad.

Papa says the funeral is to be on Tuesday, and that, after that, Roger Hamley is to go back to Cambridge. It will seem as if nothing had happened!

Gaskell, Elizabeth Cleghorn (2012-05-17). Wives and Daughters (p. 268).  . Kindle Edition.

Nothing is said about whether Molly and her father attended the funeral.

[marcie]

It seems that Roger is Osborne's only confidant. Previously, it would have been his mother. I guess that he wasn't able to tell her about his marriage... before it happened... since she was in such poor health. Afterward, as you've said, he wasn't permitted in the room with her. It seems that missed opportunities have made the situation at the Hamley's worse.

Good point, Lucy, about how Gaskell controls the mood of the book. Molly is so excited to be meeting her new "sister."

How would you describe Cynthia? What are some of the sentences said by herself or others about her that you found interesting or enlightening?

[JoanP]

Pedln, I too thought it was strange - very strange that Molly was not invited to Mrs. Hamley's funeral - over again we are told that Molly was like a daughter to her.  I wouldn't be surprised if she hadn't been invited and the new mamma just didn't pass along the message.  Am waiting for Mrs. Gaskell to make that known.

I'm at a loss about this wife.  Where did she come from?  Where  - and when did Osborne meet her?  Someone wondered if she is pregnant.  I'd be surprised if Osborne gave up his place in life for love.  Mrs. Gaskell keeps us buying the issues of Dickens' magazine, doesn't she?

Marcie, I don't know why it makes me happy to learn that you are noting the same typos in the manuscript.  Maybe because it makes me think that this is just as Mrs. Gaskell submitted the installments to Dickens when they needed to be quickly included in upcoming editions.  After they were published in his magazine, I imagine that no one dared make any changes...even today.  What edition are you reading?  I wonder if Gutenburg edited them?  Or Kindle?  I'm going to go check Gutenburg...

I'm really curious about Mr. Preston and what went on with Cynthia before she went away to school, aren't you?  How old is she now?  Whatever happened, she must have been 15 or 16 when last they met.  And why is Clare so disturbed whenever he shows up.  I'll put money that the two of them had some sort of relationship those years ago.  But one thing is clear, he's after Cynthia, who seems determined not to have anything to do with him.

[ANNIE]

I had Roger's secret about having a wife,being that He andCynthia might have met in France and fell in love and married!  Well my story would surely have upset Clare's applecart!  And it would have changed the atmosphere at the Gibson house!  What I can't deduce is Osborne's change of personality and his father's not seeing it.  And ths Squire and Mrs Hamlin unawareness of his weaker character.  Roger is my favorite.  He is so caring, bringing flowers every day!  Giving Molly carte Blanche with his library and speaking to her about what goes on at Cambtidge, as if she was a member of his family.  Well, she seems a sister to the Hamlans, as the father and the sons mention to her.  Asking about their mother's
calling her, Fanny, who is their dead sister.  

[JoanP]

Good to see you here!, Annie!

Oh my...Roger and Cynthia married?  You have some imagination, Annie! I'll bet you meant Osborne and Cynthia.  That occurred to me too...until she arrives home and meets Osborne for the first time.  She'd have been some actress to pull that off! 

I looked up Chapter XVIII and see that their editors cleaned up the text... I wish they hadn't  - I was feeling closer to Elizabeth Gaskell when reading what I thought were her own typos.

"The evening of the day on which she had had the above conversation with Roger, Osborne arrived. He came straight into the drawing-room, where Molly was seated on the rug, reading by firelight, as she did not like to ring for candles (not candies)  merely for her own use. "

[bellamarie]

JoanP.,  I am reading my book from my NookColor ereader, and it does have typos throughout also.  I wondered if it was Gaskell, or the printer.

Annie, you and I were thinking alike, I too was thinking Cynthia and Osborne could have met in London, and wed.  But, since she returned home and NO slightest clue, I gave up on it.

Lucy,

 "But notice how skillfully Mrs. Gaskell changes from this dark scene to the excitement and pleasure (at least from Molly and her father) at Cynthia's arrival; her youthful poise and striking beauty bring fresh new concerns to the story and dispel the sadness of the previous chapter."

You said this perfectly!  I have to admit I was filled with sorrow with the illness, and death of Mrs. Hamley, and thinking how awful it would be for Molly to have to return to her evil step-mother, but in comes Cynthia!!  I had thought Cynthia, would not be as excited and receiving Molly as Molly was to have her, as a sister, but I am so happy to see the both of them become very good friends/sisters.  That did, break my somber mood, quickly.  

Gaskell has just done a superb job in writing this book.  I told my hubby, it could end up being one of my very best books I have ever read!  She has ALL the elements in it that I look for in a good book, love story, evil, goodness, kindness, mystery, family, friendships, special occasions, death, new beginnings, etc., etc.  She moves the story along so you are not bored, and are wanting to speed right through the pages to learn more.  She keeps you guessing, intrigued, and plays havoc with all your emotions.  

I'm not so sure Molly and Mr. Gibson were not invited to the funeral, as Gaskell did with the wedding, it was glossed over so quickly we didn't really know who attended or who didn't.  She did not want to emphasize on either event in length, just have it occur and off we go......Although Osborne and Roger do come after the funeral to give Molly a token and to give high regard to Mr. Gibson for his excellent care of their mother.  So it could be they did not attend.

Preston is a very strange bird, I can't wait to see what he is all about and why, Lady Harriet, Clare and now Cynthia are very upset when he is mentioned or arrives on the scene.  Molly did not get a good vibe off of him either.

Annie, Roger is surely proving to be a very favorite character for me as well.  Mrs. Hamley was my favorite as I had stated earlier.  She was such a sweet, kind, caring and motherly woman for Molly, and her boys adored her, as did the squire.  I'm still a little sad, she is gone.

marcie,

How would you describe Cynthia? What are some of the sentences said by herself or others about her that you found interesting or enlightening?

Cynthia is a little perplexing to me.  While she is a very good friend/sister to Molly, so far, she states "she is not a good person like Molly." Cynthia, shares with Molly about her resentment for her mother not being more a part of her life.  She tells Molly she wishes she could genuinely "love" someone like Molly does, although she does say she thinks she "loves" Molly.  So I am seeing this is the first time Cynthia has actually felt what it is like to love another human being, other than her father who she only had but 4 yrs of her life with to love.  It was interesting how Cynthia tells Molly how when her father died, her mother and others disregarded his death as having any effect on her since she was so young.  Cynthia says indeed it did.  I suspected Clare and Cynthia were alike in some ways, and I fear it's in the way they are unable to "love."  But where I find Clare cold and insensitive, I see Cynthia more warm and caring.  Let's see if this last.  There is so much more we don't know, and so much more to learn.

Ciao for now~

[Lucylibr]

Pedln: Thanks for the reference to the funeral.  I think it odd that so little is made of the wedding or the funeral.  As readers we are thinking that so much will be revealed at these events that we are looking forward to them, and alas they are given very little attention, as though Mrs. Gaskell wants to surprise the reader and keep attention on the many more seemingly ordinary events. The subtitle calls it "an everyday story," which surely would have appealed to people reading it as a serial.

[Jonathan]

'...as though Mrs Gaskell wants  to surprise the reader...' I think, Lucy, that you have pointed out the most remarkable feature of  her style. One thing after another. Nothing unusual happened at the funeral so why not get it out of the way. It's the life of the survivors, afterwards, that are important to the plot.

'She has ALL the elements in it that I look for in a good book, love story, evil, goodness...'  Wonderful, Bellamarie. It just got too much for me. I wanted to know more, so I read on, and on, and on. It justs keeps getting better and better. What a lively plot. And the characters, well, Mrs Gaskell is just the grandest puppeteer. Her characters do the most remarkable steps for her. I'm up to Chapter 31.

Typos are the least of the curious writing. I'm reading the Oxford Press World Classics edition and I'm told in the introduction about the 'slips and inconsistencies'. Mrs Gaskell must have been under pressure and dealing with the riches in her mind, how could she help but commit a few...whatevers. As Bellamarie points out, Cynthia was four when her father died, but weren't we told early on that Clare was still in mourning when the story began?

Never, ever, will I see Clare as the evil step-mother. Despite the author's attempts to portray her as such. These characters are all puppets for the cause. Fascinating.

JoanP, my book tells me that the book was published in The Cornhill, so Dickens was no longer around to tell her how to write her story.

[JoanP]

That's very interesting, Jonathan - will have to look into the change of publishers.  What happened to Dickens, I wonder.  CornHill was a rival to Dickens' Household Words.

"Mrs Gaskell's first novel, Mary Barton, was published anonymously in 1848. The best-known of her remaining novels are Cranford (1853), North and South (1854), and Wives and Daughters (1865). She became popular for her writing, especially her ghost stories, aided by Charles Dickens, who published her work in his magazine Household Words."

There IS a story here...something had occurred during Dickens' publication of Mrs. Gaskell's North and South right before Wives and Daughters, her last book - there was an objection to one of her characters, as I understand it.  Will look again in the morning for the article that slipped away from  me. It was  interesting

[bellamarie]

Jonathon, " It just got too much for me. I wanted to know more, so I read on, and on, and on. It justs keeps getting better and better. What a lively plot. And the characters, well, Mrs Gaskell is just the grandest puppeteer. Her characters do the most remarkable steps for her. I'm up to Chapter 31."

I suspected readers have gone on ahead by either their posts, or them not posting, for fear of giving spoilers.  If I read ahead, I would have to discuss it, or slip spoilers out of excitement.  I am so happy to know it gets better and better, I didn't doubt for one minute it would be less exciting, as it already has been for me.

Jonathon, "Never, ever, will I see Clare as the evil step-mother. Despite the author's attempts to portray her as such. These characters are all puppets for the cause. Fascinating."

Good for you!  Stick by your own convictions, regardless of the author or what we post.    

I'm not sure if I recall Clare in mourning in the beginning of the book, I think I remember her making a snide statement about her being free.  Don't hold me to this, until I have the time to find it in the book.  Cynthia, sure did not have any nice things to say about her mother, to help us like Clare, any more than Gaskell has so far.  But there is always hope & time for redemption.  

Am I the only one who has not read ahead?  Tomorrow we are to discuss chapter 20 Mrs. Gibson's Visitors, I will be patient and wait before going ahead.  It's really tempting now though.....

Ciao for now~

[marcie]

Wow, what a lot of good information and interesting observations.

I'm reading a book published by Echo Library, which "uses advanced digital print-on-demand technology to build
and preserve an exciting world class collection of rare and out-of-print  books, making them readily available for everyone to enjoy.

Situated just yards from Teddington Lock on the River Thames, Echo Library was founded in 2005 by Tom Cherrington, a specialist dealer
in rare and antiquarian books." I am not sure where they got the digital original.

Good point, Jonathan, about Clare being in mourning. When we meet Molly and she attends the affair at the Towers, how old did we say Molly was? Around 12? Cynthia is her age, correct?

After Molly wakes up from her nap on Clare's bed at the Towers, they have the following conversation which indicates that Clare's husband died 7 months ago, so  Cynthia must have been about 11 or 12 when her father died:

Are you married, ma'am; I thought she called you Clare?"

In high good-humour Mrs. Kirkpatrick made reply:—"I don't look as if I was married, do I? Every one is surprised. And yet I have been a widow for seven months now: and not a grey hair on my head, though Lady Cuxhaven, who is younger than I, has ever so many."

"Why do they call you 'Clare?'" continued Molly, finding her so affable and communicative.

"Because I lived with them when I was Miss Clare. It is a pretty name, isn't it? I married a Mr. Kirkpatrick; he was only a curate, poor fellow; but he was of a very good family, and if three of his relations had died without children I should have been a baronet's wife. But Providence did not see fit to permit it; and we must always resign ourselves to what is decreed. Two of his cousins married, and had large families; and poor dear Kirkpatrick died, leaving me a widow."

"You have a little girl?" asked Molly.

"Yes: darling Cynthia! I wish you could see her; she is my only comfort now. If I have time I will show you her picture when we come up to bed; but I must go now.

[marcie]

Bellamarie you say: "She [Cynthia] tells Molly she wishes she could genuinely "love" someone like Molly does, although she does say she thinks she "loves" Molly.  So I am seeing this is the first time Cynthia has actually felt what it is like to love another human being, other than her father who she only had but 4 yrs of her life with to love.  It was interesting how Cynthia tells Molly how when her father died, her mother and others disregarded his death as having any effect on her since she was so young.  Cynthia says indeed it did.  I suspected Clare and Cynthia were alike in some ways, and I fear it's in the way they are unable to "love."  But where I find Clare cold and insensitive, I see Cynthia more warm and caring.  Let's see if this lasts.

I remember reading that also. It does seem that Cynthia and Molly care about each other and always speak well of the other to everyone else. I do see that Cynthia sticks up for Molly and enjoys her company and does care for her but I don't see her as "warm," especially not to people other than Molly. Cynthia seems to be somewhat on "automatic." We're told that, while she is aware of her effect on people, she doesn't usually calculate her responses to them. She just  has a certain look and way about her that is attractive but she doesn't seem to have a range of emotions.

[bellamarie]

marcie, 

"In high good-humour Mrs. Kirkpatrick made reply:—"I don't look as if I was married, do I? Every one is surprised. And yet I have been a widow for seven months now: and not a grey hair on my head, though Lady Cuxhaven, who is younger than I, has ever so many."

Jonathon and marcie, This is very confusing to me, and yes, now I remember reading this... "it's been seven months," yet if you read Cynthia's account, Cynthia was only four years old, when her father died.  So, what is going on here?  Molly is eleven, which means Cynthia is eleven at the time Molly visited the Towers.  So, something is off.  Is this an error, or is this Clare not telling Molly the truth?  And why didn't Molly put this together, as Cynthia tells her now, that she was four when her father died?         

marcie, Good point, Cynthia could be on auto pilot with her feelings.  I found her warm to Molly, is what I meant.  But Cynthia is not warm at all to her mother or Preston.  I think this helps us understand Cynthia:

pg. 271  "I wish I could love people as you do, Molly!."
"Don't you?" said the other in surprise. 
"No.  A good number of people love me, I believe, or at least they think they do; but I never seem to care much for any one.  I do believe I love you, little Molly, whom I have only known for ten days, better than any one,"
"Not than your mother?" said Molly, in grave astonishment.
"Yes, than my mother!" replied Cynthia, half-smiling.  "It's very shocking, I dare say; but it is so.  Now, don't go and condemn me.  I don't think love for one's mother quite comes by nature; and remember how much I have been separated from mine!  I loved my father, if you will,"  she continued, with the force of truth in her tone, and then she stopped; but he died when I was quite a little thing, and no one believes that I remember him.  I heard mamma say to a caller, not a fortnight after his funeral, "Oh, no, Cynthia is too young; she has quite forgotten him"__and I bit my lips, to keep from crying out, "Papa! papa! have I?"  But it's no use.  Well, then mamma had to go out as a governess; she couldn't help it, poor thing! but she didn't much care for parting with me.  I was a trouble, I dare say.  So I was sent to school at four years old; first one school, and then another; and in the holidays, mamma went to stay at grand houses, and I was generally left with the schoolmistresses.  Once I went to the Towers; and mamma lectured me continually, and yet I was very naughty, I believe.  And so I never went again; and I was very glad of it, for it was a horrid place."
"That is was," said Molly, who remembered her own day of tribulation there.

pg. 272  "I wish I was good!"
"So do I," said Molly, simply. She was thinking again of Mrs. Hamley,__ 
Only the actions of the just
Smell sweet and blossom in the dust,
and "goodness" just then seeemed to her to be the only endearing thing in the world.
"Nonsense, Molly!  You are good.  At least, if you're not good, what am I?  There's a rule-of-three sum for you to do!  But it's no use talking.  I am not good, and I never shall be a heroine still, but I shall never be a good woman, I know."
"Do you think it's easier to be a heroine?"
"Yes, as far as one knows of heroines from history.  I'm capable of a great jerk, an effort, and then a relaxation__but steady, everyday goodness is beyond me.  I must be a moral kangaroo!"

pg.  275,  "I am not good, and I told you so.  Somehow, I cannot forgive her for her neglect of me as a child, when I would have clung to her.  Besides, I hardly ever heard from her when I was at school.  And I know she put a stop to my coming over to the wedding.  I saw the letter she wrote to Madame Lefebre.  A child should be brought up with its parents, it iit is to think them infallible when it grows up."

"But though it may know that there must be faults,"  replied Molly, "it ought to cover them over and try to forget their existence."

"It ought.  But don't you see I have grown up outside the pale of duty and "oughts."  Love me as I am, sweet one, for I shall never be better."

After reading this I ask myself, How does a four year old, be so much trouble, she is sent away and neglected, all her years at one school, after another?  I sense there is much more to be revealed here......

Ciao for now~

[marcie]

We're on to Chapter XX today, although we can continue to talk about any past chapters. Some of you have already alluded to  Mr. Preston. What do you make of the visit of Mr. Preston and the reactions of Clare and Cynthia? Something definitely has gone on in the past between the three of them. And what do you think Cynthia thinks of Osborne, now that she has met him?


Is some other tension arising between Cynthia and Molly? "If Molly had not had the sweetest disposition in the world she might have become jealous of all the allegiance laid at Cynthia's feet; but she never thought of comparing the amount of admiration and love which they each received. Yet once she did feel a little as if Cynthia were poaching on her manor...." What's the cause of Molly's hurt feelings?

Bellamarie, you and I were posting at the same time.  I'm guessing that Mrs. Gaskell didn't get a chance to "fact check" her book before she died and that's why there is the age discrepancy.

Those are helpful excerpts that you've posted. I am especially struck by this one:
"I am not good, and I never shall be a heroine still, but I shall never be a good woman, I know."
"Do you think it's easier to be a heroine?"
"Yes, as far as one knows of heroines from history.  I'm capable of a great jerk, an effort, and then a relaxation__but steady, everyday goodness is beyond me.  I must be a moral kangaroo!"

Do we have an heroic act from Cynthia to look forward to, in between times when she lacks "everday goodness"?

[JoanP]

Mr. Preston is a worriesome character, don't you think?  One of very few in this novel.  Is there anyone who finds him likeable or trustworthy?  Brings Molly to tears when he puts down the Hamleys - the Squire, Osborne...even Roger, only a "senior wrangler," who will never amount to anything.  Does anyone have a footnote explaining "senior wrangler"?  You have to hand it to Cynthia - she believes in senior wranglers, in Roger and doesn't believe the Hamley family is near extinction.  Later she confesses she doesn't know the Hamleys - probably knows nothing of senior wranglers either.

I liked Mrs. Gaskell's choice of words describing Molly's feelings when she saw all of Osborne's attention focus on Cynthia when he first saw her.  No longer does he pay attention to Molly -  Yet I saw no flirting on Cynthia's part, or Osborne's - no "poaching" on Molly's territory.

I still feel I don't know Cynthia enough to know what she's capable of if she really wants something...or if she's capable of an heroic act either.

[bellamarie]

It's interesting how Clare made the comparison of Osborne, to Preston after Cynthia meets Osborne, and how Clare now has her sights on Clare marrying Osborne.  Did Clare at one time expect Cynthia to marry Preston?  This would make sense in a way, because for some reason Preston seemed to lay claim to Cynthia, even expecting she would come live at Ashcombe.  

pg. 282 "As soon as he was gone (Osborne) Mrs. Gibson began in his praise.  "Well, really, I begin to have some faith in long descent.  What a gendeman (another misspelled word) he is!  How agreeable and polite!  So different from that forward Mr. Preston," she continued, looking a little anxious at Cynthia.  Cynthia quite aware that her reply was being watched for, said, coolly (misspelled)__ "Mr. Preston doesn't improve on acquaintance.  There was a time, mamma, when I think both you and I thought him very agreeable."  "I don't remember.  You've a clearer memory than I have.  But we were talking of this delightful Mr. Osborne Hamley.  Why, Molly, you were always talking of his brother__it was Roger this, and Roger that__ I can't think how it was you so seldom mentioned this young man."

Hmmmm.....this is interesting.  So why are they so against Mr. Preston now?

marcie,

I'm guessing that Mrs. Gaskell didn't get a chance to "fact check" her book before she died and that's why there is the age discrepancy.

That's a possibility, but it is a huge discrepancy, Cynthia saying she was four years old when her father died, compared to Clare telling Molly she was a widow of seven months. That's a seven year swing.  Do you suppose Mrs. Gaskell meant for Clare to say "seven years" rather than "months?" The more I think about this statement, "In high good-humour Mrs. Kirkpatrick made reply; "I don't look as if I was married, do I?  Every one is surprised.  And yet I have been a widow for seven months now; and not a grey hair on my head, though Lady Cuxhaven, who is younger than I has ever so many."  

I am thinking Gaskell meant to write "years."  There are so many misspelled words in the book, this could have been an oversight as well.

Ciao for now.

 

[pedln]

Interesting, the references to time and age, here.  But whatever, we know the girls are now about seventeen years.  They're close in age.

 Reading their comments on "being good" and loving someone took me back to my teaching days, thinking about how we called some children "a child at risk."  Refering to a child who has suffered some blows and will need extra help and assistance. A child who has perhaps lost someone close, has moved from a comfortable home, etc.  

I think both Molly and Cynthia were children at risk in their early lives, but the care and treatment each received was very different.  Molly lost her mother at an early age, but she knew she had her father's love and knew she was important to him. NOt only that, but the people of Hollingford took Molly into their hearts (especially the Brownings) and showed her that they cared about her. Her world was stable and caring and filled with people who showed her their love.

On the other hand, no one understood the loss that Cynthia felt when her father died.  Her mother was wrapped up in herself, and while she may have loved her daughter, didn't really show it.  Cynthia was not surrounded by those "cookie people" who make everything right in the world.  She hasn't really learned about loving people because she hasn't experienced it.

[Jonathan]

So much to puzzle over in this book, even without the misspellings and fact checks. Seven months, or seven years? It has to be seven months. Let's go back to Chapter 2 one more time. At the Towers, and Molly has just met Mrs Kirkpatrick. A lunch arrives for Molly. Of which she has only the grapes, while Mrs Kirkpatrich consumes the rest. Molly looks on in wonder:

'She (Mrs K, Clare) was so pretty and so graceful in her deep mournig, that even in her hurry in eating, as if she was afraid of some one coming to surprise her in the act, did not keep her little observer from admiring her in all she did.'

Then, two pages along, several hours later, preparing for dinner, we find Mrs K taking off her black morning gown; and putting on her dressing gown

Even in mourning, or any morning, she looks gorgeous. And the same thing is said about Cynthia. She would, we're told, look good in rags. And how often we're reminded of the problem of dressing Molly to look presentable.

What a wonderful maze of fiction we find ourselves in.

[bellamarie]

The discrepancy of the time frames, of when Mr. Kirkpatrick died, makes me wonder how Gaskell could be so far off on this, at two different parts of the book. I really did not intend to be fact checking, it's just when I read Cynthia tell Molly she was 4 yrs old it confused me.  It will be interesting if this comes back around, further in the book for clarification.  I'm not a person that can say, whatever and go on. I am a novice writer, and I can't imagine a writer making such an important mistake.  I find myself wondering if it really does mean something, and will be revealed. 

So on to chapter XX1 for me!

Ciao for now~   

[Lucylibr]

http://www.clerkmaxwellfoundation.org/WranglersWhatBecame2008_1_24.pdf

This an article on Senior Wranglers. Apparently it was a huge honor and a great intellectual achievement.  There are also articles explaining it in Wikipedia if you just Google the term.

[marcie]

JoanP, I agree that Mr. Preston seems worrisome. Why is he showing up at all and why does he keep pursuing Cynthia? Harriet has heard bad rumors about him and has already warned Molly away from him. Bellamarie, I think I could understand how a writer could lose track of ages if she had intended one line of thought/action and then changed her mind later on. The impression that Molly has given me is much younger than her chronological age. Jonathan makes a good case for Clare being in mourning. In any case, as you say, we'll see if there is mention later on of any more chronology.

Pedln, those are great points about Molly and Cynthia both being at risk as children and the different ways they were/were not supported by family and friends. Thanks very much Lucy, for that informative article on senior wranglers.

[JoanP]

Lucy - thank you so much for that informative article about the prestige attached to achieving the status of Senior Wrangler!

The securing of the top
position  as  Senior  Wrangler  was  regarded,  at  the  time,  as  the  greatest  intellectual  achievement
attainable in Britain and the Senior Wrangler was f€ted well beyond  Cambridge  and accorded pre-
eminent  status among  his  peers  - indeed  years  in Cambridge were  often remembered  in  terms  of
who had been Senior Wrangler in that year.

I then googled "senior wrangler" as you suggested - and found this:

"Obtaining the position of a highly ranked Wrangler created many opportunities for the individual's subsequent profession. They would often become Fellows initially, before moving on to other professions, such as law, the Church, or medicine. Throughout the United Kingdom and the British Empire, university mathematics professors were often among the top three Wranglers"

Way to go, Roger!  Doors are opening to him - though he isn't receiving recognition on the home front - YET!

[JoanP]

With an eye on the discussion schedule in the heading, we move on to the next chapters XXI-XXVII today - but of course any observations from previous chapters are welcome.  Mrs. Gaskell is building on them as she moves along.  Can anyone tell me if the Hamley boys and Mr. Preston (does he have a first name?) -  have they met before now?  The "worrisome" Mr. Preston seems to know a lot about the Hamleys... I'm starting to worry what might happen if Cynthia, the object of his affection, begins to show interest in either of the Hamley boys. 

[bellamarie]

WOW!  So Senior Wrangler indeed shows, Roger has a successful career in store for him.  And now in these next chapters it is as I suspected, Mr. Hamley is realizing how he and Mrs. Hamley gave all the attention to Osborne, they spoiled him and now he sees the consequences, and it seems he is ready to voice his disappointment to Osborne finally.  He is so upset to see Osborne home, dressing like a "king" and not helping in any way to get himself, and family out of the financial mess he has made.  And we still have NO idea what he did with all the money.  I was a bit shocked to read Osborne asking for his expected money to make a life of his own.  So has he married, keeping it a secret, come home to collect his share, so he can then go live with his wife?  

I'm feeling very sad for the squire, he is realizing how being uneducated has kept him from having made friends, and now here he sits in his morning dressing clothes, in his dark study, going over the figures and frustrated, because he sees his estate in ruins.  He and the sons relied so heavily on Mrs. Hamley he just can't seem to know what to do now without her.  She was the mortar that held the family together, she was their rock, and their soft place to fall.  So now it seems Roger will assume that position in the family.

Ciao for now~

[Jonathan]

What an interesting, challenging set of questions for this weeks chapters. Really? Can there be answers for all of them somewhere in there? What a challenge it must have been to tell this story. Is it any wonder if, as Marcie points out, the author, 'intended one line of thought/action and then changed her mind later on'? Mrs Gaskell's characters are leading her a merry dance. Or is it her lively imagination? She certainly gives her readers lots of scope to speculate on the passing scene. As a reader it's difficult to know how to allocate one's sympathies.

My personal list would put Squire Hamley at the top: 'I'm getting old,' he said, 'and my head less clear than it used to be. I think sorrow for her has dazed me.' End of Chapter 22

He's the father, who 'had been rather proud in the days when he had looked forward to a brilliant career at Cambridge for his son; he had at that time regarded Osborne's fastidiousness and elegance as another stepping- stone to the high and prosperous marriage which was to restore the ancient fortunes of the Hamley family.' His first-born son has let him down and now his wife has died, his strngth is failing...sad, sad, sad.

But there are the step-sisters to cheer us up. Cynthia and Molly. The lovely, refined Cynthia with her 'quips and cranks'. And the tomboy Molly, who can be found 'sitting up in a cherry tree, six feet from the ground at least.'

Molly can do two steps at a time going up the stairs. Cynthia, not to be outdone, can manage four, if their broad and shallow.

And then there's their mother who 'piqued herself on being an impartial stepmother'. p253, ch 21. Good for you, Clare. It's tough, isn't it?

[JoanP]

As you say, Jonathan, Mrs. Gaskell has supplied her readers' imaginations with much on which to speculate.
Things are certainly lively at the Gibsons...a steady stream of admirers, Cynthia the main attraction.

What did you think of Osborne's visits to the Gibson home? Poor Molly must have been as bewildered as we are - knowing his secret.  He's not behaving like a newly married man, is he?  Mrs. G., The "impartial stepmother" is already matchmaking those two attractive young people - which seems to not sit well with Molly. Do you detect any hurt feelings the way the young men all react to Cynthia's striking beauty?  Does it help that Cynthia appears to be unaware of the sensation she is causing?  

The only time Cynthia reacts to these expressions of admiration is when they come from Mr. Preston - with fire in her eyes!  Did you notice Molly's reaction to This character? I thought she handled herself remarkably well, didn't  you?  

[bellamarie]

Jonathon,

And then there's their mother who 'piqued herself on being an impartial stepmother'. p253, ch 21. Good for you, Clare. It's tough, isn't it?

Is Clare really as impartial as Gaskell states, or as Clare would like to think she is?  Afterall, if Clare has her way she has already decided her daughter Cynthia and Osborn are the more attractive and more intelligent of the four, so she has paired them together, while Roger will be just fine for Molly.  Hmmm...if I were impartial, I would want the "best" for both girls.  The funny thing here is....WE know the truth, so while Clare "thinks" she is choosing the best for her daughter, we know he not only is NOT available, but, Roger is proving to be very intelligent, in his own slow way getting there, and will probably be the more successful one of the two.  Not to mention he will most likely be key, in Osborne getting his poems published. 

I don't sense Molly & Roger would ever end up together.  I'm suspecting Coxe is going to return on the scene, an established doctor coming to profess his love to Molly.  Call me a hopeless romantic, but I think Mr. Gibson, will see his qualities, and realize trying to keep him from Molly, only may have made Coxe even more determined to earn his right to at least let Molly decide for herself, NOW that she is coming out at the Easter ball.  Yep, I think the fox will attempt to return to the hen house. 

Jonathon, 

Is it any wonder if, as Marcie points out, the author, 'intended one line of thought/action and then changed her mind later on'?

I just can't accept this is the reason for the discrepancy.  Gaskell is an established writer, I can't see this as her changing her mind, knowing her reader will see the age difference.  It has to be a typo error, gone unnoticed, like all the misspelled words, or some other explanation.  Authors just don't make these type of mistakes on purpose.  I'm going to wait til the end of the book, to see if there is a clarification for it. 

So, I am finally to the chapter we know Osborne's wife's name is Aimee, and is a Catholic, French girl of lowly status.  OH BOY I can just see the reaction when everyone learns this.  I sense the poor squire is going to die of a broken heart, and never have to know about this disappointment.  He is at a point in his life, he is giving up, and this would be just too much to put on him.  I like how Gaskell opened the idea of people liking and accepting Aimee, if they had the chance to meet her.  I was thinking the same thing.  Isn't prejudice a nasty thing to have to live with?  It sure does cause a lot of heartache. I feel sad for Aimee, living far off, in a unpleasant living style, while Osborne is flitting around in his best dressed clothes, visiting young girls, giving false hope for a possible relationship.  Molly and Cynthia are close friends, but one thing that could harm their relationship is of course a man!  Molly knows she is not as beautiful as Cynthia, but that in no way leaves her to believe she does not have the same chance, to have the same attention, from either Osborne or Roger.  Gaskell keeps repeating Roger and Osborne, telling Molly she is like their sister.  So in all reality Gaskell is saying, they in no way see Molly in a romantic light.  I'm not sure Molly sees either of them romantically either, she just does not like feeling left out.

Ciao for now~ 



 

[JoanK]

Interesting the prejudice against the French that is shown here. Want to see what Gaskell does with this if the wife shows up. I remember Dickens, (writing later true). His French characters were always sly.

I remember thinking, before Cynthia showed up, that Clare didn't want her coming back from France because she had become a loose woman. Am I sharing in stereotypes about Frenchwomen? That doesn't seem to be the case at all. What does Gaskell want us to think of Cynthia? Do you like her?

[JoanK]

There certainly seems to be some mystery about the past of Clare, Cynthia, and Mr. Preston. What could it be?

[Lucylibr]

I have no idea why Mr. Presaton is disliked by Cythia and her mother and Lady Harriet and by extension Molly.  I don't remember the plot at all from my encounter with it 50 years ago.  But Mr. Gibson, although he feels he should repay Preston for the hospitality he showed him at the time of his wedding "had yet an instinctive distaste to the man," which obligation could not overcome. Preston is handsome and accomplished an an athlete, so what is wrong with him?  We shall see..

Clare is both afraid of him and admires him and would invite him to attend ball with them (because of the shortage of available men) but Cynthia refuses to go if Preston is their guest.

[marcie]

Jonathan, I'm always intrigued and entertained by your posts. Are you throwing over your previous favorite, Clare, for the squire? 
He and Osborne seem kept apart from one another through their pride and stubborn nature. It seems it's also what has kept the squire from finding friendship. He thinks he isn't educated enough and likely is prejudiced against educated men as too "dandy" for him. It seems that if he had made an effort, he would have had friends who could share in his  hospitality and hunting, etc, if not in conversation.

What is Osborne doing at the Gibson's? Is he finding some respite from the loneliness and bad feelings in his father's house? Molly doesn't think that he's behaving improperly with Cynthia (given what Molly knows) but Clare certainly has her hopes up for a match.

[JoanP]

I'll bet Molly is wondering too what the new "groom" is doing at the Gibsons' home, Marcie.  Maybe he's just trying to make some connections with the neighbors, now that he is back home for good.  Maybe he thinks his new wife will enjoy Cynthia's company. They speak the same language...I'm trying to be positive here. He can't be courting - as Clare is hoping.

This isn't the first we've heard negative comments regarding the French, JoanK- although French fashion, French language...are considered an asset.  No one is criticizing Cynthia's French style.  So why is the Squire so close-minded about the French?  Mrs. Gaskell writes that the Squire "hated the French collectively and individually." It has been my experience that people who are racially prejudiced come to like and appreciate individuals when they get to know them.  Poor little Aimee...she will have a difficult time of it - if and when Osborne brings her home to the Hall. Will she win the Squire's heart?  With Molly's help perhaps?

Can we put our heads together to understand why the English - some of the English - have such strong anti-French sentiments at this time?  What do you see in Aimee's future - will she ever be the mistress of Hamley Hall?

[Lucylibr]

The squire has not managed his estate productively and has failed to adopt modern methods of timber management keeping the old trees for sentimental reasons.  It is similar to the difficulty that Lord Crawley in Downton Abbey finds himself.  At first he resents Matthew's ideas and then realizes he needs help and accepts them.