Poll

What do you think happened to Edwin Drood?

Killed by Jasper
4 (36.4%)
Killed by Neville
0 (0%)
Killed by someone other than above
1 (9.1%)
Still alive
6 (54.5%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online  (Read 76218 times)

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #240 on: September 15, 2009, 11:58:09 AM »
The Mystery of Edwin Drood - by Charles Dickens

Had Dickens lived to complete "The Mystery of Edwin Drood," his 15th novel would have been one of his major accomplishments, say many of his critics. The novel was scheduled to be published in twelve installments  from April 1870 to March 1871. Only six of the installments were completed before Dickens's death in 1870, which left the mystery half finished.

"The ideal mystery is one you would read if the end was missing," writes Richard Chandler, creator of Philip Marlowe. Reading and discussing an unfinished mystery is a unique experience, especially when shared with a group. Will we agree with the critics, or go mad trying to figure out what he intended for the young engaged couple introduced at the start of the book?  And what has become of young Edwin Drood? Help us track down clues as we read along ... and then we'll each propose our own ending during the last few days of the discussion.

Chapter discussion schedule
September 1-6: 1-6
September 7-13: 7-12
September 14-20: 13-18
September 21-27: 19-23

This unfinished mystery is available in several places on the Internet at no cost but you might want to purchase the book or borrow it from your library, in order to read one of the editions, such as the Penguin Classics, that has useful footnotes.

Questions for your consideration this week: Chapters 19-23

1.   Chapter 19--Shadow on the Sun-Dial--what is the significance of the title?

2.  What is Jasper willing to sacrifice for Rosa?  Were you surprised by his declaration of love?  Was Rosa?

3.  Chapter 20--A Flight.  Is it a good idea for Rosa to go to Mr. Grewgious?  Does he seem less "angular" and "dry" now that we've seen more of him?

4.  Chapter 21--A Recognition.  Mr Tartar has a history, it seems.  What do you think Dickens might have planned for him?  How old is he?

5.  Chapter 22--A Gritty State of Things Comes on.  Can you picture Tartar's home and the conversation between Rosa and Helena Landless?  Which parts of the description stand out?

6.  Why does Billickin object to signing the lease with her Christian name?

7.  Are the Billickin and Miss Twinkleton worthy opponents?

8.  Why does Miss Twinkleton expurgate all the love scenes when reading to Rosa?

9.  Chapter 23--The Dawn Again.  Did you notice the shift back to present tense early in the chapter?

10.  Why does the Princess Puffer follow Jasper from London to Cloisterham?


See the previous questions and related links.



Discussion Leaders: Deems, Marcie

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #241 on: September 15, 2009, 01:56:18 PM »
Sheila, thanks for the news about the Dickens biography on the History Channel. I'll check to see if it's available in my area. I found some video clips about Dickens' life at http://www.biography.com/articles/Charles-John-Huffam-Dickens-9274087

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #242 on: September 15, 2009, 01:59:41 PM »
I found that I do get the History Channel International and that Charles Dickens: A Tale of Ambition and Genius will be broadcast for an hour in the morning on Wednesday and repeated in the afternoon.

JoanK

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #243 on: September 15, 2009, 05:58:20 PM »
I have to admit, I couldn't put the book down, and have finished it. So I have to be careful what I say. It is clear in the section were reading, that Dickens is setting us up to believe that Jasper killed Edwin, and set Neville up to be blamed for it. If this was a modern mystery story, mystery readers like me would be sure that that WASN'T the case: that it would turn out that either Edwin wasn't dead or Jasper didn't kill him. There would be a surprise twist at the end where the real situation was revealed.

But we don't know what kind of a mystery writer Dickens was (did he write any others?). In my historical ignorance, I don't even know if he had any models of mysteries to follow. Had "The Moonstone" been written yet? It is full of false suspicions and has a surprising "whodunnit". Dickens has planted so many clues leading to Jasper as a murderer, it's hard to believe they are all "red herrings" (the term in mysteries for clues that lead one in the wrong direction).

I can't wait to see what Matthew Pearl makes of it. A different solution would have to explain a lot away at this point.

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #244 on: September 15, 2009, 06:31:30 PM »
Hi there, JoanK.  You've hit on some points that I'd been thinking about too.  As I understand it, this was Dickens'  first mystery.  He made a point to tell everyone that this would be different from anything he'd ever written.  Yes, Wilkie Collins had written Moonstone, 1868 - but this was only two years before Dickens wrote Drood.  He and Dickens were very close right up to the time of Dickens'  death.  Willie Collins' younger brother was married to Dickens'  youngest daughter.  (Don't you think he might have confided his plans for the book in his writer friend?)
I agree with you, I find it difficult to believe that Jasper had killed his nephew.  Is that the story? What would  be left to tell in the second half of the book?  

Another thing...Dickens made a point of referring to the title as The MYSTERY of Edwin Drood...not the MURDER of Edwin Drood.  Perhaps he intended to leave it a mystery right to the end...wouldn't that be something? ;)

In  Chapter 15 and 16, first we see Jasper collapse on the floor - and then come up with the story that his nephew has probably just left town when the engagement was called off.  Do you understand why this change?  I'm afraid I don't understand the title "Impeached"  on Chapter 15.  Impeach - to discredit?
I can see Jasper collapsing if he really has murdered his nephew to keep the engagement from happening - but do we believe that he murdered Edwin?  If not, why was he overcome to the point of collapse?

ANNIE

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #245 on: September 15, 2009, 08:24:28 PM »
Hi JoanP,
How was your trip??  I have been down with the strangest stomach flu that I have ever had.  It took a long time to finally let me eat today and I have had it since Friday night.  Oh well, it wasn't H1N1 and that's a plus.
Somewhere in my book, I read that Dickens and Collins had a friendly contest going about Dicken's first mystery.  Collins' book was such a good read and I think that my daughter and I have read it twice which I just hardly ever do.  Seems like I read that Dickens thought he could at least write a mystery as well as Collins.  We shall see, won't we???? or maybe not!
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #246 on: September 15, 2009, 10:58:35 PM »
There seem to be (at least) two schools of thought on the type of mystery that Dickens was writing: a "whodonit" or a "psychological thriller" type of book, where you know (or think you know) who the bad guy is and you learn more about his state of mind.

ANNIE

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #247 on: September 16, 2009, 08:04:30 AM »
If the author intended to confuse us by always blaming Jasper for the death of or disappearence of his nephew or at least, hinting at it,  he has succeded far too easily, IMO!  Although we have no ending here,  I feel that we will be surprised as the story unfolds.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #248 on: September 16, 2009, 08:32:45 AM »
Annie, is there a test that indicates that you have/have not had swine flu?  My son was down for five days - fever of 104.  Finally his wife persuaded him to see a doctor - who told him he didn't have swine flu.  All the symptoms sounded as if he had...and he said, as you did, that he had never had such a case of flu as this one.

Quote
There seem to be (at least) two schools of thought on the type of mystery that Dickens was writing: a "whodonit" or a "psychological thriller" type of book, where you know (or think you know) who the bad guy is and you learn more about his state of mind.
Marcie, I think we are looking at the psychological thriller, don't you?  So, is Dickens trying to show Jasper is the "bad guy"?   I don't think we are allowed into Jasper's state of mind, but rather his actions - and from everything he does, he certainly appears guilty.
Poor Neville - the same can be said for him.  Everyone believes he's guilty - except dear Mr. Crisparkle.
Even the Dean counsels him against providing sanctuary.  I loved his comment - "We clergy keep our hearts warm and our heads cool."  And then he adds, "We clergy need do nothing emphatically."  To me he is saying...Mr. Crisparkle should do nothing  one way or another concerning his belief that Neville is innocent.  Is this Dickens commenting on his own attitudes regarding the clergy?

I may have missed it - but has Mr. Grewgious told anyone about the ring?  We have two strong reasons to believe that Edwin would have waited for Mr.G's arrival in Cloisterham - 1. He promised PRosa he would and 2. he intends to return the ring.  Did Mr. G. think about this?  Did he tell anyone about it?  (I've only read Chatper 16, Devoted.

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #249 on: September 16, 2009, 08:49:05 AM »
I just read Matthew Pearl's post in The Last Dickens.
His own edition of Mystery of Edwin Drood has just been released in the US - Gum , since you already have this copy, will you please go into the discussion and comment on your edition?  He's saying something about footnotes - or endnotes, which you might not have.

 We're nearing the October 1 start date - if any of you are planning on joining in that discussion, will you do me a favor and post something in there - anything, just so we can get the conversation going?  Thanks!  You can find the discussion here - The Last Dickens

ANNIE

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #250 on: September 16, 2009, 09:04:06 AM »
JoanP,
Yes there is a way to know but I don't know what it is.  Man, you would think that a fever would count, wouldn't you??  
I did not have that kind of cold or flu that your son had.  Mine was the complete upset of my stomach and intestines which lasted for three days and then I still couldn't get past the weakness for another 2  days.

According to my daughter, they have already lost one Cornell student in Ithaca, NY and she is really worried since she works in the office at Telluride House where all the nerd(read- brilliant) students live.  I asked her if they were wearing face masks yet and she said no.  Since she is an asthmatic, she lives in fear of all flu seasons and will be using her meds faithfully.  Plus acupuncture, herbs and flu shots. 
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Jonathan

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #251 on: September 16, 2009, 12:16:10 PM »
How can you have a whodunnit, without something having been done.? Perhaps it's meant as a story of madness. I liked Pat's explanation of Jasper's sudden, total collapse on hearing about Rosa and Edwin's agreement to go their separate ways. Perhaps murder had been committed at that point, leaving the murderer dazed. Like Macbeth, or Lady Macbeth. With the many references to Shakespeare's play the reader is set up to make many associations.

Why did Dickens attempt something new in DROOD? Or was it just his swan song. He was sick and tired at this stage of his life, did in fact have that wonderful pen fall out of his hands before finishing his tale. When he chose Cloisterham (Rochester) it must have been with a feeling of going home. Lots of clues that he was sentimental about his birthplace. We've come full circle. Wasn't PICKWICK PAPERS one of his earliest works? The first journey the Pickwickians take is to Rochester.

Pat, thanks for doing the cathedral tower climb with Durdles. Wasn't that a shivery thing with the 'startled jackdaw' and and 'frightened rook' sending up a cloud of dust and straws' in the confining passageway. But then the glorious view from the top:

'...they look down on Cloisterham, fair to see in the moonlight...its river winding down from the mist on the horizon, as though that were its source, and already heaving with a restless knowledge of its approach towards the sea.'

Magical. What would, or could, the famous Turner, or the Hudson River School of Art have done with that! I'm sorry that the scene switches to London in the later chapters.

He left his tale unfinished, but Dickens was contemplating the end from the very beginning. At least that's what I make of his thoughts, early in Chapter 6, when he muses on the 'that blessed air of tranquility which pervaded Minor Canon Corner, and that serenely romantic state of mind - productive for the most part of pity and forebearance - which is engendered by a sorrowful story that is all told, or a pathetic play that is played out.'

So there's a challenge for anyone wanting to finish the story begun by Dickens. My copy of DROOD comes with a 120-page cotinuation and completion of the mystery. I haven't read it, except for this line near the end. It shouldn't be a spoiler, just a teaser:

'Durdles, in a celebratory mood, has thrice seen the ghost of the Choir Master, dancing a jig under the Cathedral porch.'

I'm not sure Dickens would have liked that.

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #252 on: September 16, 2009, 12:45:18 PM »
Though they were collaborators on many publications, my understanding is that Dickens and Wilkie Collins  were sort of rivals/competitive in the writing that each did by himself. Collins and Dickens had some kind of falling out in their relationship during the last few years before Dickens died.

Collins' Moonstone increased the circulation of "All the Year Round," the magazine owned and edited by Dickens, more than any novel either of them had written up to that point. I think that Dickens wanted to try his hand at some type of mystery. I do think it was to be more of a psychological study than a detective mystery.... with some kind of major surprise at the end.  After we finish the last chapters he wrote, let's try to imagine what Dickens surprise was going to be. Jonathan, I agree with you. Dickens must hint at his ending in the chapters we're reading, even though there was to be a surprise.

JoanP, I found a July article in the Washington Times in which the writer alludes to the many novels written about Dickens in 2009. He doesn't seem to have an answer about why so many at this time but it is an interesting article: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jul/26/books-imitating-inimitable/

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #253 on: September 16, 2009, 02:32:23 PM »
I think "The Moonstone" will be useful to us when we start trying to guess the ending.  Dickens might very well have been trying to imitate, or outshine, Collins.  There's something else, too.  We tend to forget how new the detective story was then.  "The Moonstone" was groundbreaking, perhaps the first full-length detective story.  It can serve as a reminder of the assumptions and conventions of the time, simpler than now.

JoanK

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #254 on: September 16, 2009, 03:05:52 PM »
PATH: you anticipated what I was going to say (must be that magical twin thing working ;)). "The Moonstone" is considered the first full length mystery story (at least in English) -- Who knows if he was familiar with Poe's short stories. He didn't have a lot of patterns to work from. Whatever he planned may not fit into the catagories we've come to know.

For example, it's an unwritten rule in today's mysteries that someone gets murdered, even if it's not the person you think it is. We don't know for sure yet that Drood was murdered -- I was automatically thinking if he wasn't, then who WILL get mudered. But of course, it could be no one.

JoanK

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #255 on: September 16, 2009, 03:10:19 PM »
One thing intrigued me. In the scene between Edwin and Rosa, Edwin several times is on the verge of telling Rosa about the ring, and decides not to. Dickens then says (I don't have the book here) something like this decision starts one of those chains that determine future events.

We'll never know, but since, I've been trying to think of scenerios that would fit this statement. It isn't easy.

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #256 on: September 16, 2009, 04:14:15 PM »
What wonderful comments greet me as I stagger to the computer--no, not taking opium in any form.  I seem to be sick with something or other.  Slept forever this morning (no classes today) and have a fever--not high, but it's there.  And a strange head. 

Reading that both Annie and Joan P's son have recently recovered from something certainly gives me pause.  I'm hoping that I'm just worn out and with all the sleeping and taking it easy, not to mention Cold-eeze which I've been sucking, all will be well.

I'm especially interested in all the comments on just what kind of a mystery do we have here.  Several of you have noted how very new that mystery story was what with The Moonstone only being a few years old.  And Joan K even reminds us of Edgar Allen Poe and his short stories with Auguste Dupuin.  I think those stories were the actually beginnings of the mystery, but don't quote me.  I still remember one of the Wishbone stories being one of Poe's--I think it was "The Purloined Letter." 

Anyhoo, Marcie wrote "There seem to be (at least) two schools of thought on the type of mystery that Dickens was writing: a "whodonit" or a "psychological thriller" type of book, where you know (or think you know) who the bad guy is and you learn more about his state of mind." I agree with both Joan P and Marcie that in all probability what we have going on here is a psychological study, more like Jonathan Kellerman --minus the psychiatrist (who in Dickens' time would have been called an alienist)--than Elizabeth George. 

Apparently Dickens meant to do something entirely new here, with the second half involving some sort of roundabout confession from Jasper with Jasper in prison.  Remember the "diary" that Jasper has been keeping that he tells Crisparkle is as much a diary of Ned's life as his own?  Perhaps more of that diary would be revealed in the second half. 

There is so much we do not know about Jasper that it would be most interesting to find out.  People have already mentioned his unhappiness in Cloisterham and his desire for Rosa--I'm not sure it's even her money.  We know about his use of opium and the after-effects of that addiction.  We know virtually nothing, however, about why he is in Cloisterham, what his younger life was like, why he has not married, what pains, other than the ones he mentions to Ned he has experienced.  In other words, just what made Jasper into the man that he apparently is.  So much I would like to know.

JoanK

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #257 on: September 16, 2009, 04:44:41 PM »
A nitpick -- nitpicking is my middle name. But since I'm in the mystery corner, and we throw these terms around all the time, I want to get them straight. A "psychological" is not necessarily a mystery in which we know who did it from the beginning, just one where we get deeply into the psychology of the characters, the detective, and the killer (even if just at the end, when we find out he is the killer). Elizabeth George's books  are considered "psychologicals". I haven't read Jonathan kellerman, so can't comment on him.

We aren't really inside Jasper's mind, at least not yet. We only guess what he is thinking from hints and brief sentances.

Jonathan

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #258 on: September 16, 2009, 05:13:54 PM »
This is taking on a mysterious shape. I felt that a continuation or sequel to DROOD would be a Cloisterham Revistited thing, but now it seems that it might be a MOONSTONE revisited treat. Dickens has brouht in the moon on numerous occasions. And now that stone-encrusted ring is becoming all-important.. The last we hear of it, it's in Edwin's possession, and on his person. Edwin's watch and pin were removed from his person and disposed of in the weir, a murderer knowing that quicklime would not reduce them to nothingness like it would a body.  So, find the ring, and we find what's left of Edwin. Not very pretty, but incriminating. Durdles probably does the finding. Now who would know that Edwin never wore jewelry other than watch and pin? Only Jasper. And here he was, plotting the perfect crime.

JoanK

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #259 on: September 16, 2009, 05:31:03 PM »
JONATHAN: how clever of you. Of course the ring would stay, and Jasper wouldn't know it was there. And I missed the parallels to "The Moonstone" where a jewel plays a prominant part in the plot. This is Dickens' "moonstone".

I'll bet there are a lot more parallels. It's been too long since I read M for me to pick them up.

Boy, Dickens really repays this careful study. I wish I could read more of him with you guys.

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #260 on: September 16, 2009, 07:24:34 PM »
Deems, I hope you feel better soon and that you don't have the flu.

 I agree that reading The Moonstone would help us see the type of plot, evil deeds, etc, that fit into the era when Willkie Collins and Dickens were writing. I would think that Dickens wouldn't want to be seen as copying Collins and wouldn't, therefore, include a lot of the same details. But maybe that's not so.

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #261 on: September 16, 2009, 07:43:19 PM »
I watched the biography of Dickens on the History International Channel and found it interesting. One of the main things I took from it was the impact some terrible experiences in early childhood made on the rest of his life. His father was terrible in managing money. When his father went to debtor's prison with the rest of the family when Charles was 12, Charles was not permitted to go with them since he was of working age and he had to work in a shoe dye factory for a year or so to earn money. When the family finances improved (an inheritance?) and his father and family were released, Charles was deeply wounded by his mother's insistence that he continue to work at the factory. His father, however, rescued him from that fate, and between 1824 and 1827 Dickens was a day pupil at a school in London. At 15, he became an office boy at an attorney's, while he studied shorthand at night. He later became a reporter due to his fluency with shorthand.

 His year at the factory haunted him all of his life but he kept it a secret from almost everyone. He was determined to do well financially and achieve the dreams that he and his father had shared when he was young. It's thought that his hardship at a young age was later a source both of creative energy and of the preoccupation with the themes of alienation and betrayal that many people point to in his work.

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #262 on: September 16, 2009, 08:00:28 PM »
Marcie, I agree that Dickens would avoid details that would seem to be copying "Moonstone" directly.  What he wouldn't be able to avoid would be the underlying assumptions of the time.

By the way, laudanum (opium) plays an important part in "Moonstone" too, though in a completely different way.

The Moonstone itself is a large yellow diamond, stolen (by a relative of the heroine) from the eye of an Indian idol at the siege of Seringapatam.  The plot isn't about a murder, but about the theft of the diamond from the heroine.  Always hovering in the background are the three religious Indians waiting their chance to recover the gem and return it to the goddess.

Quite a different setup from Drood.

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #263 on: September 16, 2009, 08:07:13 PM »
Joan K--I had no idea that a "psychological" was a term for a particular kind of mystery or that Elizabeth George wrote them.  I guess the term would apply to P.D James as well?  I guess I need another term.  Dickens, it seems, was very interested in what motivated Jasper (I am assuming that he did it and that Ned is dead) and in how he would be caught and what he would do if caught.

Jonathan--Ah, Durdles probably does the finding--cool.  I'll bet he was designed to do it.  Perhaps while in the act of finding a space for another body's final resting place?  And the ring has to be important since it has not been found. 

Still not myself, but no worse.  Which is good.

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #264 on: September 16, 2009, 08:14:47 PM »
A nitpick -- nitpicking is my middle name.
Gee, I thought nitpicking was my middle name.  Do you think we have something in common?

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #265 on: September 16, 2009, 08:43:09 PM »
There's so much detail here that I'm having trouble moving on, even though I've read up to date.  I Will move on, maybe coming back later to the corbels in the cathedral, but I have to mention the rooks.  They enter in chapter 2, and make many appearances later.  You see them a lot in English books, adding atmosphere.  Essentially, they're a kind of crow, but they seem to have different behavior patterns.  This Wikipedia article starts with a picture of the bird, and if you scroll down a little you see a painting of rooks in a tree with a church in the background.  The size is about the same as an American crow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rook_(bird)

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #266 on: September 16, 2009, 08:48:22 PM »
Deems, for goodness sake take care of yourself.  Don't forget that if it is swine flu, you will have lingering respiratory symptoms.

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #267 on: September 17, 2009, 10:21:07 AM »
Maryal, I've been reading that area colleges have been struck with the swine flu earlier than was expected.  Do you hear of cases at the Naval Academy?  It's good that you are feeling better.  They say if you think you've got it - stay home!  Did you get that memo?

I had been trying to think of possible confidants of Dickens, hoping for a clue regarding the direction he was taking for his final novel, his first "mystery."  It makes sense to me that Dickens would write a "psychological" - and yet we are looking at the actions of the characters to determine their inner state of mind.  Is this how "psychologicals" are written?

Since he worked so closely with Wilkie Collins, I thought he might provide some clues regarding Dickens'  intent.  Was so disappointed to hear from Marcie that the two friends had fallen out at the end - I just had to learn more.

Quote
"Consequently, after initial enthusiasm, Dickens was less sure of The Moonstone, even though its serial publication pumped up the circulation of All the Year Round more than any novel so far, including his own A Tale of Two Cities (1859) and Great Expectations (1861). However, Dickens's exasperation with both the best-seller and its author may stem from his growing dissatisfaction with his sickly and neurotic son-in-law, Charles Collins. Dickens confided in the actor Charles Fechter that, looking at his son-in-law across the dining table at Gad's Hill, Dickens thought to himself at this time, "Astonishing you should be here today, but tomorrow you will be in your chamber never to come out again." However, Dickens admired Wilkie's subsequent work, including the play that Wilkie wrote based on one of Fechter's ideas, Black and White (1869).

In the late 1860s, Collins began to decline in health, and his growing opium addiction and his peculiar relationships with Caroline Graves and Martha Rudd led to his estrangement from Dickens, who knew all the details of Wilkie's private life, just as he knew all about Dickens's extra- marital affair with the young actress Ellen Ternan. Not surprisingly, in print as in life secrets and double identities held a fascination for both novelists. Wilkie Collins and his mentor remained estranged in the last years of Dickens's life. After Dickens's death in 1870, Collins remained a prolific writer, despite continued ill health."  http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/collins/dickens1.html

  Is there any interest in reading/discussing Collins'  Moonstone at a later date?  I remember a very good discussion in his "Woman in White"  several years ago.

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #268 on: September 17, 2009, 10:53:53 AM »
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"There is so much we do not know about Jasper that it would be most interesting to find out.  People have already mentioned his unhappiness in Cloisterham ... We know virtually nothing, however, about why he is in Cloisterham, what his younger life was like, why he has not married, what pains, other than the ones he mentions to Ned he has experienced.  In other words, just what made Jasper into the man that he apparently is.  So much I would like to know." Maryal

You just reminded me about a remark Durdles made to Jasper during their walk through the Cloisterham churchyard - Durdles points out the plot of Jasper's "own brother-in- law."  I would imagine if Jasper's brother-in-law is buried here in Cloisterham's churchyard, more of the family lives in this town too - or did at one time.  A brother in law indicates that Jasper has a brother - or a sister living in Cloisterham at one time or another.   I keep puzzling over the possible relationships between Jasper's brother-in-law  - and Edwin Drood.  The brother-in-law would be too young to have died a natural death, don't you think?  Had Dickens'  finished this novel, I'm sure we would have learned more about Jasper's family connections in Cloisterham.

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #269 on: September 17, 2009, 11:37:51 AM »
Are you detecting a change in mood with the introduction of Tartar and Datchery into the story?  A shift for the better.  Datchery seems to have an agenda, a reason to come to this town looking for an architecturally interesting place to live...something old, something out of the way - "inconvenient"  and "venerable - like right next to Jasper's place.  He settles for the rooms where he can sit and watch all the comings and goings in the town.  You know what he seems like to me?  A detective. A private investigator.   And he's so disarming, that no one suspects he is investigating.  Like Miss Marple.  He's even got Sapsea providing him with all the information he needs.  I don't know why, but I think things are looking up for Neville.

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #270 on: September 17, 2009, 12:38:18 PM »
Ah yes, Joan P, Tartar (the sailor turned gardener) and Datchery--our two new characters.  I like your guess that Datchery might be a detective (he reminds me of Columbo who always had just one more question.  Loved that guy.)  It seems odd that anyone would just turn up in Cloisterham and ask all these questions.  Who could have sent him?  Is he really some other character we have already met--in disguise?  I'm certain he would have played a role in the second part of the novel.  Otherwise, why introduce him so late in the book?

Tartar, on the the other hand, is an available bachelor--aha.  A potential husband for Rosa?  For Helena?  Rosa certainly has a time in his ship-like apartment, trying to keep herself aware of which magical world she is inhabiting, the ship, or the "garden" with her friend, Helena.  Dickens does a wonderful job of describing her turning back and forth from one to the other.  Ooops, I don't think we've gotten to Tartar yet.  Sorry, don't have the book with me at work.

Later.

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #271 on: September 17, 2009, 01:24:29 PM »
No, you didn't jump ahead, Maryal...we've met Tartar, a big guy, "eight and twenty" - as nimble as a gymnast.  He's the one with the roof garden outside Neville's window.  A new friend for Neville.  Haven't seen him with Rosa yet though.

 Now you've given me something to think about - Datchery -   
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Is he really some other character we have already met--in disguise?
The long white flowing hair is mentioned several times.  It could be a wig, but the fact that he likes to shake his head like a dog drying himself off  - wouldn't that be difficult to do with a wig.  I DO remember reading that he had long white hair though - AND black black eyebrows.  Is that odd for an old man?

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #272 on: September 18, 2009, 11:12:14 AM »
In this week's reading we've barely met Tartar; he's introduced himself to Neville, arranged to share his runner beans, and swarmed up the rigging to the roof garden.  I haven't seen him with Rosa yet, but he seems too eccentric to marry the heroine.

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #273 on: September 18, 2009, 12:39:48 PM »

Thanks, Pat H, I was pretty sure I had jumped ahead.  But that's OK, it doesn't really give anything away.  The scene I was referring to comes just a little later, in next week's reading.   We'll worry about the swarthy Tartar later.

I've been thinking about the meeting in "Both at Their Best" when Rosa explains to Ned that their marriage isn't a good idea and exactly why.  I was really impressed with her maturity.  Even Ned behaves, possibly for the first time, like a grown-up.  Apparently he has listened to Grewgious who tried his best to explain to Ned how important it was for him to take giving the precious ring to Rosa seriously.

"If Rosebud in her bower now waited Edwin Drood's coming with an uneasy heart, Edwin for his part was uneasy too.  with far less force of purpose in his composition than the childish beauty, crowned by acclamation fairy queen of Miss Twinkleton's establishment, he had a conscience, and Mr Grewgious had pricked it.  that gentleman's steady convictions of what was right and what was wrong in such a case as his, were neither to be frowned aside nor laughed aside.  They would not be moved.  But for the dinner in Staple Inn, and but for the ring he carried in the breast-pocket of his coat, he would have drifted into their wedding day without another pause for real thought, loosely trusting that all would go well, left alone.  But that serious putting him on his truth to the living and the dead had brought him to a check.  He must either give the ring to Rosa, or he must take it back.   Once put into this narrowed way of action, it was curious that he began to consider Rosa's claims upon him more unselfishly than he had ever considered them before, and began to be less sure of himself than he had ever been in all his easy-going days."


Sorry to quote at such length, but the passage shows that Ned is growing up, that he does have a conscience and a thought for someone else beside himself after all.  I begin to think better of him. 

Rosa is also at her best.  As soon as they begin their walk, Rosa broaches the topic--bravely I think.  First she says she must say something serious to him and then, just a few lines later, she says straight out,  "That's a dear boy!  Eddy, let us be courageous.  Let us change to brother and sister from this day forth."

Rosa explains to Ned that he always thought highly of her, just the as others did, and that this simply isn't enough.  There needs to be more of a basis if they are to marry.  Added to the points that Grewgious made which Ned has already been thinking of, he finally comes to:

"It was new and strange to him to have himself presented to himself so clearly, in a glass of her holding up.  He had always patronized her, in his superiority to her share of woman's wit.  Was that but another instance of something radically amiss in the terms on which they had been gliding towards a life-long bondage?"

Did everyone notice that the earlier Chapter 9 was entitled "Birds in the Bush"?  That's the one with the interview between Grewgious and Rosa where the terms of her father's will and his wishes are explained to her.  Alliteratively--all those b's--it connects to this one.


marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #274 on: September 18, 2009, 12:46:05 PM »
Maryal, I too thought that Rosa (the same Rosa who had hidden her face under an apron and sucked her thumb), was wonderfully mature and courageous to bring up the matter to Ned of their not being completely suited to one another for marriage. She and Ned could have just drifted into the marriage just as they had been doing all of their lives. Ned confirms that he would have brought up the subject if she had not. They are both growing in our estimation.

I've not been paying attention to the chapter titles. I think you are right that they provide clues about what we're to take from the chapter.

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #275 on: September 18, 2009, 01:28:47 PM »
I was just trying to work up a post about Rosa and Edwin, but I think you said it better, Deems and Marcie.  For the first time in his life, Edwin is taking Rosa seriously, as a human being to be respected and listened to.  Before, she was just a kind of trinket, his by right, taken for granted.  Now he can no longer call her "Pussy".  You don't talk to a real person that way.

Mr. Grewgious shook Edwin up, made him face up to what he was doing.  In Rosa's case, though, she already realized what she had to do, and Grewgious just gave her the ammunition and extra strength she needed.

Jonathan

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #276 on: September 18, 2009, 04:54:29 PM »
There was obviously something missing in the relationship between Rosa and Edwin, more so for Rosa than for Edwin. But even she admitted that they must both appear ridiculous in their behavior when together. The important decision had been made for them by their fathers, and nothing was left for them to arouse the true lovers' instincts.

Didn't they all try to teach Edwin how to be a lover. Carefree and careless Edwin showed the world his feelings in that lighthearted, naive sketch of Rosa appropriated by Jasper and hung above his mantlepiece. Do we ever hear how Jasper felt about the 'picture'?

Neville in a fit of jealousy told Edwin in no uncertain terms re his failure as a lover, and got an insult from Edwin for his trouble. Now, if he, Neville, could paint a 'picture'....but is only taunted by Edwin.

When Mr. Grewgious paints his 'picture' of a true lover, Edwin comes to his senses, and realizes what is missing between him and Rosa. I was struck by Edwin paying attention to the one and not the other. After Mr Grewgious, Edwin was prepared to listen to Rosa.

I'm expecting fireworks between Neville and Tartar over Rosa. And eventually Rosa and Edwin fall into each others' arms.

Mr. Datchery? I think he's a snooping writer who smells a story.

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #277 on: September 18, 2009, 05:13:06 PM »
Yes, Jonathan. Grewgious helped Edwin wake up.

Thoughts of Helena were already crossing Edwin's mind as he and Rosa were disentangling their relationship. If Edwin is alive, I don't think that he and Rosa will get together.

I am very puzzled about Datchery and who he/she is.

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #278 on: September 19, 2009, 10:33:06 AM »
I bet Datchery will turn out to be the detective, but I'd sure like to know who put him on the case.

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #279 on: September 19, 2009, 10:42:16 AM »
Chapter 14 (When Shall These Three Meet Again?) is a nice little bit of melodrama.  We follow each of the three diners: Neville, full of misgivings, Edwin, a strange warning from the woman opium-smoker casting a gloom over his mood, and Jasper, busy and cheerful, as in turn they go up the postern stair.  Then, nothing.  All we know is that a monster storm blows all night, and when morning comes Jasper is frantically looking for his nephew.