Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online

[CarolGoodman]

 The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.

(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week  3: Through Chapter 24:
It's All in the Cards


What a chapter! Revelations, surprises,  but even more secrets, what did you make of it?

1 Talk about unreliable narrators, what do you think of Phineas? Is he reliable? Is Ely? Do you believe Ely?

2. Who is the yet unnamed operative still at the site?

3. The cards and their meanings are revealed!!  What are two possible flaws in Ely's plan to use them?

4. " I see Agnes, looking not only very much alive but the picture of health. Her cheeks are pink and her eyes glowing as if she'd just finished a morning jog." (page 232). What's going on with Agnes and why?

5.  Are you clear  on how the two parallel plots intertwine here? We've only got a small section left. What has Phineas's part in the rites got to do with the hunt for the Golden Verses?

6.  What do you think Simon was arguling about with Lyros? What do you think he was struggling to say to Sophie?

7. What do you think Maria was doing on the computer?  (page 206) Do you buy her emergency family trip?

8. Betrayal as  a theme has just raised its head. How is it paralleled exactly in the two plots?

9. How much do you think Maria saw when she came to look for Sophie? Why couldn't Ely have taken her to land somewhere instead of the swim?

10. "....be careful not to hurt Agnes or Agnes's woman professor." (page 279). What need has Lyros of Agnes's woman professor?

11.  What do you think is the most important part of this section and why?

12. What does Sophie's dream about Odette mean? What is meant by the wrong pan and the wrong day? (Babi)

13. What's with  the diabetic complication that caused Simon, our artist, to die? (Andrea)

14. " But why would she make up such a story in order to go report to the Church. She is there as a Church representative, and reporting to them would be natural and appropriate. No,...she must have been doing something else." (Babi) What do you think Maria is doing?

The Temple of Poseidon
Sounion, Greece
Where "Phineas"  got the scrolls

Schedule Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22 Chapters 25-End for  June 23 - 30

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Interesting Links NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 Carol Goodman Homepage The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) Cult  (submitted by Marcie) Real or Fictional ? Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants

Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny

Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.




New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!

QUESTION FOR CAROL

Just as I was interested in the name Elgin I was also interested in the meaning of Lyros.  It is a city in Greece , a mystical Kingdom where humans and elves interbreed, much related to music themes and even lyros Herkulaneum-an 8 inch friction cord.

The question to Carol is : Did she choose names with secret meanings or just at random?

   .

I picked Elgin originally because of the Elgin marbles, but then remembered it was also the name of a Texas town famous for sausage and loved the juxtaposition.

I think I just made up the name Lyros because I liked how it sounded.  I might have been thinking of internet search engine Lycos.  I'm fascinated with the city in Greece! Where did you come across it?

[bellamarie]

Hello Carol, I hope you did not mind us having a little fun today.  

When I asked if you ever got confused, I meant from all the different books used for research.  

Did you find yourself having to go back and check how each one was fitting in to the story?  

I read Ovid's Metamorposes, watched the Little Mermaid and then went on line and read about Poseidon..." Initial Stages of Creation", I took as many notes as I could to try to tie these in and wondered if while you used many more references than me, if you ever got confused going from one book to the other.  

Kind of like, Carol

"And now, after I've told you all this, I'm not 100% sure where I came up with the description of the actual statue.  I think I may have made her up based on the cameos.

 

[CarolGoodman]

Carol, bless you, there you are.  Remember if you get stumped with our wonderful site here, Ginny, Marcie or I am here for the asking.  Please feel comfortable enough to ask us for what ever you  might need.

I love this: Since my novels often use similar themes of mythology and folklore, though, I find that the research for one often sets up the reading for the next book.    
Now I must inquire, what IS the title of the next one and what will it be about?

The next book is ARCADIA FALLS and it will be published in March, 2010.  This one is set back in upstate New York (after the two Italian books I was ready to return to New York again) and is set at a private school that had once been an arts colony founded by two women who wrote and illustrated fairy tales.  So the book calls on fairy tales and folklore more than mythology.

[Deems]

Thank you, Carol, for answering our questions.  We must be annoying at times!  But hey, we're readers, a breed that needs to be humored.   

[Deems]

Andy--We are of like mind

You wrote, "Ginny you're way too kind, I fear.  How bright was she making love to Ely 10 seconds after he had to breathe air into her lungs from her near drowning?"

Sophie seems a little man-hungry to me, always thinking that any man is secretly--or not so secretly--coming on to her.  Mowing the lawn after being shot in the lung makes more sense to me than nearly drowning and then making love immediately upon being resuscitated.

[bellamarie]

Deems,

Mowing the lawn after being shot in the lung makes more sense to me than nearly drowning and then making love immediately upon being resuscitated.

Pick your poison.  

[PatH]

How bright was she making love to Ely 10 seconds after he had to breathe air into her lungs from her near drowning?"

When you consider what resulted from the last time Sophie had unprotected sex with Ely, how bright was she to make love to him at all?  Oxygen deprivation clouding her judgement?

[bellamarie]

PatH, 

Oxygen deprivation clouding her judgement?

 
Sophie has had clouded judgement throughout the entire book.  Seems she does like the attention of men and can be persuaded quite easily to sleep with them for what ever reason or situation.  How close was she to accept Lyros proposition?  Guess she could have used a good father figure in her life as well as a mother.

[pedln]

Well, a day of thunderstorms  means a night of trying to catch up with you all.  Carol, many many thanks for answering all our questions.  And I look forward to Arcadia Falls, which sounds like we’ll be learning a lot from it too.

Well, Ginny, guess you were right about John Lyros.  He’s a skunk.. What a shame.  And we know Elgin doesn’t like him.  I was pulling for him, and Elgin.  I agree with Deems – Elgin has been nothing more than honorable.

Sophie is the one who has provoked me.  Many of you have characterized her as either dumb or naïve, and I’ll go along with that.  But she’s also been dishonest.  She really led us down the garden path – into thinking that she didn’t get involved sexually, romantically, with Elgin until Ely had gone to New Mexico.  And now we find out that’s WHY he went to New Mexico.

Bellamarie, do you think those cards mean anything more that a means of supplying the anniversary dates?  And I hope you’re wrong about M’Lou.  Sophie needs a steadying hand (we’ll forgive the lies of five years ago)  and from what I’ve seen so far, M’Lou is about the only one who can supply it.

Andy, don’t worry about all the math.  Believe it or not, there is a picture book that should help solve your problem.  Math Curse, (By Jon S.) when MRS.  Fibonacci puts a curse on a boy who sees everything in his world as a math problem.

[bellamarie]

pedln,

Bellamarie, do you think those cards mean anything more that a means of supplying the anniversary dates?  And I hope you’re wrong about M’Lou.  Sophie needs a steadying hand (we’ll forgive the lies of five years ago)  and from what I’ve seen so far, M’Lou is about the only one who can supply it.

With this book anything can have more than one meaning.  When you think you have something figured out, our narrator throws us a curve ball. 

As far as my thoughts about M'Lou I have changed my theory she was with the Tetraktys in my more recent post, 

I do think M'Lou is the hidden person in Sorrento helping Elgin with the FBI, I just don't see her letting Sophie go to Italy so soon after her hospital stay in the condition she was in, without knowing she would be there too to keep an eye on her. 

I agree with you Pedln, I am hoping M'Lou will be the one family member in Sophie's life who has had her best interest at heart.  Could she deal with yet one more personal loss?   I have not cared for the character Sophie from the beginning.  I felt she was just not a woman that took charge of her own life, has been a bit reckless in her sex life, choice of men, poor judgement putting her health and life at risk, and lack of instincts for danger and evil . 

The narrator may have led us to believe Ely left to join the cult, resulting in Sophie turning to Elgin.  Although, we may have assumed that on our own, because it really never was clarified until in these pages, when the narrator took on speaking in the past tense. 

Ciao for now.............

[PatH]

I don't agree that Elgin has been nothing but honorable.  He is being so now, and may even turn out to be the good guy, but he had an affair with Sophie when she was in his class and still living with a boyfriend, and that isn't honorable.

[ginny]

Pat's post brought me up short, about Elgin:

I don't agree that Elgin has been nothing but honorable.  He is being so now, and may even turn out to be the good guy.  He's being so NOW. They are doing their own Metamorphosis! Just like Ovid and Apuleius, another parallel. What will they all turn out to BE?

 I guess I did a Sophie all through this book, and was just taking everything at face value, I could hardly take in her account of what had really happened, wow!

So she really IS (or is she?) an unreliable narrator. She held this back, and she's been somewhat not forthcoming, not particularly emotional, in the entire book,  radar not out, (but it seems to be coming out now at the end of the book, why?) we're just finding out who these people are.

They are all masked men! All playing  a game (the rites) within a game, plot upon plot. That can't have been easy to write.

Thank you Carol for the super answers. I loved the one about Night, and the cameos.

I love the game, the cards. I can't find a copy and desperately want one, I want to see the illustrations. They are all sold out on the internet, the Smorfia ones. There are other versions, I want the Smorfia. The more I read this book the more I see in it.

It's like shape shifting or smoke and mirrors. What a movie this would make!!!

Harrison Ford, Tom Hanks, eat your heart out~ hahahaa

Frying pan. I bet I have looked up the word frying pan in online Italian dictionaries a million times, I don't see the word for it in the list on the Smorfia site.  There must be another word.

Problems with the game: what was Ely thinking? That she would recognize the dates of their particular anniversaries? If the guy had not come along by accident (or DID he? Was HE an FBI plant to explain the game?) she would never have known, would she?

So she has dreams, nightmares, I would,  too, but I would be on the first boat out of there, bunch of nut cases. But she had known some of them before, Agnes, Elgin, so that must make it less likely she's in the company of seriously deranged people. What would YOU do at this point, seriously?

IF Ely had simply written a note, hi, I'm here, must speak to you, meet me at the grotto or meet me in town at the funicular or meet me......wouldn't that work also? WHY the cards?

Why?

WHO is the informant? 6 people. Not much known about George, I'll erase him. Not Lyros (love that info on the name, I had looked it up in a Greek dictionary  and did not see anything), good one. Not Sophie. Not Sophie.

That leaves Agnes, Maria, and Elgin. ONE of you, as Poirot says, is the killer.

It's got to be Elgin for the FBI, if we like him, so that leaves.....ta da! Agnes or Maria? Which?

I think this calls for a SeniorLearn Research Trip, let's all pack our bags for Sorrento, and so some research! hahahaha

What I still cannot figure out is how Sophie corresponds to Phineas in the parallel plots? Wrong gender? I'm going to go back and read Simon's little bits to find out maybe what he and Lyros  were arguing about, and what he found so  troubling. Something is wrong here.

I don't have a problem with her rushing into a sexual relationship with him, guilt, unfinished business, abandonment, the lung thing, she nearly drowns, she gets caught, she had an epiphany (where is Norma) about her mother, she is overcome with emotion, he was her former husband, she's trying to reclaim what she lost in the past. She was, for once, overcome with emotion, perhaps she thinks better without it.

But what's on YOUR mind today? Everything is rushing like the tide to a climax.  Can you reconcile these parallel plots?

WHY Sophie? That's the Issue du jour with this thing for me, but what's YOUR main issue here?

[ALF43]

Jolly good points today, my friends. (as the Brits would say)
I am betting that Maria is one of the good guys here, Ginny.  We are suspecting Agnes to be the demon, rearing her ugly head soon and I think that she will fit the bill.  I will point out a couple of reasons that I am leaning toward her when I return from water walking at the pool.  It's cool now and if I don't go quickly it will soon be in the 90's.  

I am leavng for NY on Thursday morning to visit the kids/grands families and have to lose 28 lbs. before I leave.  do you think I'll make it?  

Talk about RO ::)FLMAO.  I could walk for a year of Sundays and not lose 28lbs.

ARCADIA FALLS- Carol's next novel, due out in 2010.  Let us now vow to include that in one of our future discussions.

Question for Carol-  Where in NY does this take place?  Is this another "Yaddo" tale around a fictitious Saratoga/ Glens Falls venue?

[Steph]

Am way behind here. Although I am quite  positive I put the book inthe coach, at this point, I cannot find it. Hmm. so I have not read this weeks portion.
Pedlin,, we are now in Sevierville,TN onour way up to western New York. We will be here today and leave tomorrow for Beckley WV.. and then up through Pennsylvania.. going to Chatauqua,NY for a few days.. Am looking out a a river directly in front of the rv.. Beautiful site,, very empty since it is a new park. Been dealing with the inherent problems of digital tv's, routers, and the box which is needed even though the tv's are new.. The router box is not, sigh.. Why is it whenever anything is new and improved, you go nuts.

[bellamarie]

Yes indeed!  Ginny I said earlier, you have to clear away the clutter, because these people keep changing, That's why I asked Carol if Sophie was supernatural or a figment of a dream, and if she ever got confused writing the book with so many books of references trying to keep all these characters straight. 

But did, the narrator really lead us to believe she had the affair with Elgin after Ely left...or did we assume it, because at that time we saw Sophie in a better light?  I've never trusted Sophie from the meeting with Agnes.  Sure the narrator has offered and peppered in logical explanations for her actions or non actions, but my intuition kept saying....hmmmm.  Notice how each time Sophie did not act on what the narrator was pointing out........then came a sorta logical explanation. So if you were not in a book discussion and reading this at leisure, you would tend to skim over these and take them for face value, or maybe at least not question it so much.

PatH, None of the characters have been nothing but honorable.  Their flaws were brought out early on, I guess depending on who each of us chose to like, trust, believe or identify with is who we found a bit more honorable or faired better in our minds.  Its interesting how the  narrator let us know early on that Sophie had an affair with Elgin and was concerned Agnes did too.  We were suppose to not like the character of Elgin early on.  For some reason it did not bother me he dated undergrads.  They were all over legal age.

Okay, lots more to figure out.

Ciao for now..................

[ALF43]

Steph one of my best friends comes from Chataqua,NY.  what takes you there?

[ALF43]

Bellam-

But did, the narrator really lead us to believe she had the affair with Elgin after Ely left...or did we assume it, because at that time we saw Sophie in a better light?

[/i]

No! (she hollars)  the narrator told us that that was WHY Ely left.  Not after Ely and she split but during his "obsession" with the cult- the days and nights that he started to pull away from her.  That's when she had the affair, not after he left.  When I get home I'll find the page.

[bellamarie]

Andrea,

I am leavng for NY on Thursday morning to visit the kids/grands families and have to lose 28 lbs. before I leave.  do you think I'll make it? 

ROFLMAO....I have the same struggle.  I am a Weight Watcher lifetime member, worked for them for 10 years.  I stopped working for them, had a hysterectomy gained and joined Jenny Craig 4 yrs ago, lost 20 lbs quit going 2 yrs ago.  Now here I am still struggling to lose that 20 lbs. all over again,  hmphhh July 5th we go to Great Wolf Lodge in Sandusky with the entire family, I'm hoping to shed at least 10 by then.  Oh how I hate swimming suits.

Steph, your trip sounds heavenly.  Sorry about the digital confusion.  Yes, they keep changing things so we have to keep buying  things new.  grrrrrr

[Babi]

Don't have time to read all the posts this morning.

  Good observation, FRYBABE. I hadn't really registered that. I see that Ginny
has already noted that Ely may have a cohort there. But I can't think it is
Elgin. I don't believe Elgin would be a party to the clandestine planting of the
cards.
  The question remains, of course,...why use the puzzling cards at all? Perhaps it issimply a gambit by the author to add to the mystery.

DEEMS, did you mean 'Why did you leave' me, or 'why did you leave' the cult? Actually,
 she wouldn't have needed to ask in either case, would she? She believed he left to
join the cult because he learned of her affair with Elgin.  And he left the compound
because his five years of silence were completed. 
  I wonder if it is her sense of guilt towards Ely that makes her so vulnerable to him?

GINNY, maybe Simon was murdered. What if the cave-in was not an accident, and the missing
information about his diabetes was deliberate? Perhaps we do have our murder.

Oh, no!, Bellamarie. Richard Gere in any role is a dead giveaway that he is the hero,
not a villain!

[bellamarie]

Andrea,

No! (she hollars)  the narrator told us that that was WHY Ely left.  Not after Ely and she split but during his "obsession" with the cult- the days and nights that he started to pull away from her.  That's when she had the affair, not after he left. 

pg.  8 "Not Agnes, too.  She hasn't gotten caught in his web, has she? Elgin Lawerence has a history fo seducing his teaching assistants, and Agnes is just his type_and not just because she's beautiful.  He preys on young girls who are insecure.  Agnes's father might have thought he was doing her a favor by scourging her of vanity, but he would have done better to instill a sense of self-worth in his daughter."

pg. 10 "Well, Dr. Lawerence does have quite a reputation you know,"  I tell her, hoping to get in a little warning about Agne's future romantic plans as well as her past ones.  I'm afraid it doesn't seem like she has the best track record, but then, with my romantic history, I'm not really in a  position to judge."

I didn't trust the narrator at this point because I am not one who tends to see choices made in affairs with adults young or not, the fault of just one person, regardless of their reputation one person says.

These two places Sophie is telling us "SHE lacked in her judement in men, but I think readers could skim over this and see both Elgin and Ely as the bad guys where she and poor little Agnes was concerned. 

[bellamarie]

Babi,

Oh, no!, Bellamarie. Richard Gere in any role is a dead giveaway that he is the hero,
not a villain!

I totally agree that is why I casted him as Elgin!  You must not have read my more recent post.  

Keep in mind, I like many have been seeing these characters change as I turn the pages.  Like I said, this whole entire book is like the yen and yang.

Okay off to the sun and water with the day care kids.  Check back at nap time.

Ciao for now................

[Frybabe]

Ok, I haven't quite finished the last two chapters for this week yet, BUT I sure would like to know how Ely knew (assuming it wasn't ANOTHER coincidence) that Sophie was on the rock at the grotto. Also, I was under the impression that people stuffed away in safe houses were not allowed to just gallivant off whenever they wanted.

[ALF43]

hmm Frybaby- that is a good question!
 Why indeed did Ely just happen to be sailing right by that spot where Sophie was enjoying the sun and the shore?
That never occurred to me before how he seems to know exactly where she will be and when. 
Who is the other cohort in crime that is filling him in on the details of Sophie's agenda?

[PatH]

Good points, Frybabe.  Perhaps Ely was hanging around hoping to find a chance to speak to Sophie.  She's spotted him before; perhaps he's been looking for a chance for a while.

[Gumtree]

I just love all this conjecture...so many possibilities and no answers yet.

It seems to me that Ely is the bad egg - as Frybabe put it people stuffed away in safe houses were not allowed to just gallivant off whenever they wanted. Ely really cant be the disenchanted cult member who Elgin mentioned to Sophie - he's safe in the safe house.

So what is Ely doing there? It's unlikely that he put the cards in Sophie's bedroom but Lyros may have done so or had one of the twins place them there for him...My money is on Ely and Lyros and the villains.

The picture we have of Elgin has mostly come to us through Sophie who I think we all agree is an unreliable narrator - at least some of the time - so maybe her perception of his actions is not accurate - maybe he is true-blue -maybe he is to be the hero.

I can't see Richard Gere as Elgin - Elgin is blond and six feet two inches tall !

Is Maria a red herring? The ploy of having a family emergency just didn't ring true in any sense - and why did she have to titivate herself and change into high heels - her family would know she was working on a dig and would expect to see her appropriately dressed for the work.

Simon's death is a mystery but if he was diabetic it should have been emblazoned on all his records. He appeared to be eating and drinking fairly freely which diabetics ought not to do.


I think ALF should be punished for reminding me of the 28 lbs I need to lose - by Thursday! Perhaps I'll come in the dead of night and leave some cards on her pillow.

[PatH]

When I said Elgin was being dishonorable, I meant to go on to say that Sophie was also being dishonorable.  She wouldn't have been free until she and Ely had split; then she could date anyone she chose.  But Elgin wasn't free to date Sophie as long as she was his student.  That's a gross violation of professional ethics.  The student doesn't really have a free choice, being somewhat in the professor's power.

[bellamarie]

Gumtree, 

I can't see Richard Gere as Elgin - Elgin is blond and six feet two inches tall !

Oh but my dear friend Gumtree, Richard Gere and Tom Cruise are my ONLY two men at the theater that are "MY" leading men and heros.  They fit any and all parts for me, for me none other will do!  lolol  It's my fantasy so I get to pick.  Now that does not mean you can't choose your very own!  lololol  Afterall, Simon did use his feature in his statue creation.

[bellamarie]

PatH,

But Elgin wasn't free to date Sophie as long as she was his student.  That's a gross violation of professional ethics.  The student doesn't really have a free choice, being somewhat in the professor's power.

With all due respect, she was his assistant and over the legal age.  She had a choice and she made it.   If that is enough to gross you out, then the entire sick frescoes, rites and activities in Capri must be unthinkable.  I can deal with a Professor dating his assistant who is an udergrad working closely together as they did.  Sparks are bound to fly.  Afterall look at our dear President Clinton.  How do we know neither of these ladies did not pursue these men of power and position.  The narrator has not been entirely fothcoming, and by Sophie's own admission she has poor judgement.  I read Monica Lawensky's book and she admits she did everything to get Clinton to notice her.

Now before any one gets all crazy on me, I am NOT advocating any of this behavior and the older man in postion and power should have been the wiser in their decision making.  BUT....we can NOT ignore these affairs happen and by the choice of both parties.  Regrets down the road...I would imagine so.  Don't we all have some regrets with our younger more carefree days? 

[PatH]

Yes, Gumtree, it's great fun to speculate, and there are so many twists and turns to the plot that all our theories may get blown sky-high in the next section.  Here's my current take on Maria's agenda:

The hypothetical manuscript supposedly has Pythagoras predicting the birth of Christ, Pythagoras reincarnated.  Maria, acting for the Church organization PISA, wants to get hold of the MS to suppress anything damaging to the Church.  She presumably went off to report the current development (the empty chest) and plan what to do.

Surely unless the condition were very mild a diabetic would need careful monitoring during the stress of such serious surgery.  Either they would have already discovered the situation or he would have come to grief during the surgery.

[Gumtree]

I'm glad we got the puzzle of the cards sorted out - at least we know what they are now though I haven't seen a Tombola set for years and doubt I've ever seen a Smorfia one.

When Sophie found the cards on her bed and then laid them out to work out what they might mean:

I stare at the numbers for a long time, willing myself to see some pattern in them, trying to remember patterns that meant something to Ely. I remember he liked the Fibonacci Sequence, prime numbers, the digits of pi, and palindromic numbers, but none of those seem to fit these numbers...

I thought perhaps the mathematically challenged ones among us (are you there Ginny?) might care to know a little more about the the numbers  and sequences Ely liked.

Fibonacci Sequence : As anyone who has read Dan Brown knows the Fibonacci numbers were discovered in 1202 by the Italian, Leonardo di Pisa (or Fibonacci) regarded as the first original mathematical thinker since the Greeks.

The sequence is:
     1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377... arrived at by adding each number to its immediate predecessor eg 13+8=21.

The sequence itself originally related scientifically to the breeding of rabbits and was the first example of applying maths to the reproduction of animals.

The ratio of each number to the one before it decreases rapidly at first, then levels out to approach the 'Golden Ratio' of 1.61803... The Golden ratio is evident in the proportions of the Parthenon which is an example of math in aesthetics.

Prime Numbers: Prime numbers are those numbers such as 2, 3, 5, 7, 11 which cannot be broken up into factors ie. they can only be divided by two numbers - the number 1 and themselves.


The Digits of Pi: Pi relates to the arithmetic of the circle referred to as the Quadrature of the Circle and was one of the three great math problems of antiquity (ca. 500 BC). Archimedes (ca. 287-212 BC),was the first to compute the value of Pi to three or more decimal places. Since 1500 mathematicans have been obsessed with increasing the number of decimal places for Pi and during the 20th century the Chudnowsky brothers built their own super-computer and calculated the value to about 8 thousand million decimal places. Subsequently Takayama's calculations increased the decimal places to about 38 thousand million. If written on a strip of paper Takayama's decimal places would stretch several times around the equator.

Curiously, if Ely was interested in patterns there are none to be found in the Digits of Pi because Pi is a transcendental number. Pi is one of a group of numbers which cannot be obtained from an algebraic equation and hence is said to 'transcend' algebra.

Palindromic Numbers:  These are simply numbers which read the same either forwards or backwards i.e  12321. This is analogous to words or sentences such as this one attributed to Napoleon:

Able was I ere I saw Elba

[Deems]

pedln wrote:

"Sophie is the one who has provoked me.  Many of you have characterized her as either dumb or naïve, and I’ll go along with that.  But she’s also been dishonest.  She really led us down the garden path – into thinking that she didn’t get involved sexually, romantically, with Elgin until Ely had gone to New Mexico.  And now we find out that’s WHY he went to New Mexico."

pedln, I agree.  I'm reading the book on Kindle, and pages are difficult for me to find (disadvantage to Kindle--it's harder to flip around and find things).  Can you find the section early on that led you and me to think that Sophie's affair with Elgin did not coincide with her time with Ely?  You thought the affair came after Ely left for NM and I thought she had the affair before her living with Ely.  Obviously up front somewhere, our narrator (Sophie) is withholding, obfuscating, being dishonest (with herself, with us).

Yes, Ginny, she is an unreliable narrator, at least in all the parts of the story that deal with her personal life and her observations about others. 

[Deems]

Haloo GUM!  Now I'll go back and read your post.

[PatH]

The Golden Ratio and the rectangle made in these proportions was thought by many of the Greeks to be the most aesthetically pleasing.  Believe it or not, we all stare at a Golden Rectangle many times a day.  The standard light switch plate is almost a perfect Golden Rectangle.  Mine measure 7.0 x 11.5 cm, less than 2% off.

The Fibonacci sequence is found repeatedly in nature, for example in the spirals of the chambered nautilus shell and the arrangement of sunflower seeds.

[bellamarie]

I am leaving the numbers to all of you.  That is one path I refuse to go down.  In the very beginning of the book I researched Plato's Pythagorean theory and what I could conjecture was... it comes down to one person, church, cult or group wanting to attain "proof" to claim the creation and the beginning of Christ, so they can discredit one or the other religions or theories. Whoever has the "proof"  possesses the power!  Just like the keys to the sea and the trident.  That's as far as I am willing to go with all these numbers.  Good luck to all of you who are able to go further, I marvel at your knowledge and tenacity.

[ALF43]

I agree PatH about Maria's involvement with PISA but I wonder, do you think that she can represent the church as well as possibly being an informant?
Like Gum said, she just might be a red herring.

Gumtree-

I think ALF should be punished for reminding me of the 28 lbs I need to lose - by Thursday! Perhaps I'll come in the dead of night and leave some cards on her pillow.

Yes, yes, punish me.  Send me to my room with another bowl of chocolates.    

[bellamarie]

Andrea[/b

]...Yes, yes, punish me.  Send me to my room with another bowl of chocolates.

     
 
You are soooooo much fun!!!!!  Have a great visit upstate with your family and safe travels.
 

[ALF43]

Oh there it is, thank you Gum- the Fibonacci Sequence :
 

As anyone who has read Dan Brown knows the Fibonacci numbers were discovered in 1202 by the Italian, Leonardo di Pisa (or Fibonacci) regarded as the first original mathematical thinker since the Greeks.

I knew I'd heard of it but had forgotten where.  AHA, it was Dan Brown, right!
Prime Numbers and Palindromic Numbers- I've got those.

The Digits of Pi

Curiously, if Ely was interested in patterns there are none to be found in the Digits of Pi because Pi is a transcendental number. Pi is one of a group of numbers which cannot be obtained from an algebraic equation and hence is said to 'transcend' algebra.

OK now my eyes are starting to glaze over as interesting as that sounds.

PatH-  come again please- sunflower seeds?  I don't get that one.

[JoanR]

Ginny - I saw on page 224 the very same definition of the "perfect  tense" in Latin that you have been trying to drum into our heads!!! It's as if Carol put that in there just for your classes! 

I'll go along with the idea of Elgin as the"good guy" - I like him even if he was called Professor Romeo!

It's absolutely too much of a coincidence that Ely shows up at dawn's early light just when Sophie is sunbathing by the sea.  And how could she "fall into his arms" after his 5 years of desertion and silence?  No way!

What I like most about this book, I think, is all the side trips it is making me take.  One was sort of harrowing, though.  I was looking up the Eleusinian mysteries in the Golden Bough ( great resource!) when I happened to read the chapter just preceding it which deals with Dionysus.  Pretty blood curdling!!  The paragraph on the Cretan rituals has actually given me 2 nights of nightmares!!!

And about corn - somehow I've always had the notion that corn was brought to the Old World from the Americas.  Not so.  It was a major crop in the ancient world and both Demeter and Persephone were characterized  as goddesses of the corn, wore crowns of corn and held stalks of it in their hands.

[Frybabe]

JoanR, "Corn" in the old world was grain like wheat or oats. I thought it was one specific grain, but Wikipedia says it is an English word meaning any grain.  What we call corn today was called maize. Maize apparently is the Spanish version of an old Indian name.

[JoanR]

Thanks, Frybabe, for restoring my old belief in the origins of "corn".  I suppose since Fraser is English and was writing his book back in the 20's, he was using the old world terminology.  I did think that ears of corn would make a pretty awkward crown!!!