Women in Greek Drama

[PatH]

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WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA

Greek Theater at Epidauros

           Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.

         So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!

Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
May 31-?
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides

Antigone Online
Agamemnon Online


Agamemnon

Schedule:
May 31-June 5 First half
June 6-11? Second half

Questions for the first half (Up to the point where Agammemnon and Clytemnestra Exit, the chorus speaks, and Clytemnestra re-enters to talk to Cassandra for the first time):

1. How are fire and darkness used in this play?

2. What mood does the watchman set for the play?

3. What do you think of Clytemnestra's technological innovation?

4. What do we learn of the character of Agammemnon?

5. Does Clytemnestra's picture of women in wartime resonate with your experience?

6. Can you tell Clytemnestra's real feelings toward Agammemnon from her welcoming speech to him?

7. Why is Agamemnon's walking on the red carpet so important?

8 . What is the source of the chorus's foreboding?

9. How does Aeschylus compare to Sophocles? So far, which do you prefer?

10. Does the structure of the play seem different from that of Antigone?  How?

DLs: JoanK and PatH

[PatH]

Traude, it's only technically ended.  We can still say whatever we like about Antigone, even after Agamemnon gets started on Thursday.  Your further comments would be appreciated.

Did you get to see Medea, Jude?

[Frybabe]

Sorry to hear about your friend, Traude.

I was going to start reading Agamemnon yesterday evening, but I fell asleep. 

[Babi]

 Thank you, JOANK, and be assured I will be bringing you references I don't
understand. 

 GINNY, that definition of tragedy does suggest that Creon was the protagonist.
Why, then, did Sophocles not title the play 'Creon' instead of 'Antigone'?  She
had not committed any terrible crime, though she broke the law in an perhaps
foolish and arrogant way.

 Very neat, JUDE.

   I have what the jacket (and the  writer of the introduction) tells me is “George
Thomson’s classic translation of Agamemnon, renowned for its fidelity to the rhythms and richness of the original Greek”.  I do find the translation poetic and a pleasure to read, but not so easy to understand.  This edition does not have the explanatory notes I found so helpful with Sophocles.  I need to see what I can find on-line as a useful reference for the puzzling parts. (And call on JoanK, of course.)
 
 

[JudeS]

Pat
I didn't get to see Medea this time around but have seem it in the past.
I saw it in Israel in an old Roman Theatre in Ceasaria.
The theatre , originally built by the Romans has been refurbished but it is still a roofless structure with seats like the original .
ones. The moon overhead and the low sound of the sea in the background.
Fantastic.

I've seen so many Greek plays but hadn't read nary a one till this seniorlearn opportunity. (Sorry, did read Oedipus in H.S. but that was long ago.)

[PatH]

I hope everyone has found a readable translation.  I found Fagles, who was so good for Antigone, to be tough going here.  I switched to a library copy by Ted Hughes, which is very readable; I still have to cross-check it with Fagles to see if they're consistent.

[JoanK]

TRAUDE: the discussion isn't closed. We are moving to a different play, but your comments on either are welcome.

[JoanK]

In Antigone, we spent a lot of time talking about who was right and who wrong. Now, as we move to Aesculus' Agammemnon, it's interesting that Fagles says that Agammemnon is not right against wrong, but that Aeschulus shows that "all that exists is just and unjust."(Nietzsche).

How do you feel about that? If there's something in it, we may have to find a different way of looking at the play.

[Frybabe]

What is just and what is unjust? Oh, no! Was Nietzsche as Plato fan? Plato's Dialogs had my head spinning in Philosophy class.

[JoanK]

I don't know. I admit, I've avoided Nietzche like the plague. And Plato, too.

Anyway, lets see what we think when we read Ag.

[Babi]

 Richard Seaford, who wrote the introduction to this edition, covered a great more detail
than I’m interested in.  He began by discussing all the writers Aeschylus had influenced, at some
length.  I skipped most of that.   I found the following statement interesting, tho’.  “In Athens,
the whole community had gathered in the theatre to rediscover and understand itself in drama
that was not yet subject to the modern divisions between art and religious, between creator,
performance and public, and between words, music and Dance.”   He goes on to describe a
milieu in which the earliest tragedians also directed and acted in their plays and  the shape of
the theater meant the chorus was in the heart of the audience.  They must have felt that they
were right in the middle of the unfolding events.

[Frybabe]

The forward in mine says that Agamemnon was written just about the time period that plays switched from being primarily for religious festivals to entertainment in their own right. He claims that this play is the perfect balance between the two. I can tell that it is very different from Antigone. I expect to see more depth to the characters.

[JudeS]

Are the Strophe and the Antistrophe the same as the chorus?

My translation is by an Oxford Scholar, Hugh Lloyd-Jones who is a Regis in Greek. His notes and introduction are sort of overwhelming me. I think it would take a full years course to really grasp the information he is putting forth. On each page there is a bit of dialogue and more than half the page devoted to explanation. I guess he expects us to know what Strophe are since he fails to explain these words.

[JoanK]

It'sa interesting to me to see how much our English literature owes to these classic Greek plays. Shakespeare, particularly. the structure that (was it fry?) posted above for Greek plays is exactly what we were taught Shakespeare used. And the guard that brings Antigone in is exacly like a minor humorous character in Shakespeare.

We broke Antigone at the climax, when Creon orders Antigone taken away. I broke Agammemnon at almost exactly the same place (but after the chorus' ode, instead of before). But it doesn't seem that we've reached the climax yet. Let's see where we think the climax is.

Has anyone read the play yet?

[JoanK]

JUDE: please skip the intro, and just read the play. Everything you need to know is in the background or things we've discussed about Antigone.

I love the beginning of this play, when the watchman is standing alone in the dark, looking for light. It's my favorite part.

[Frybabe]

Has anyone read the play yet?

I'm only a few pages into it so far, at the first "Standing song"

[PatH]

Are the Strophe and the Antistrophe the same as the chorus?

Without checking details in my notes: What the chorus sings seems to be also called the chorus.  It is divided into a strophe and an antistrophe, sort of like long stanzas, and the chorus (the people) dance one way during the strophe and the other way during the antistrophe.  There might be more than one strophe-antistrophe pair.  (In addition, the song-chorus sometimes concludes with an epode, which is in a different meter.

[PatH]

At first I found this play very difficult to read, the language (Fagles) was so elaborate, and the descriptions so roundabout.  I switched to Hughes, and found the going easier.  But then I decided that Hughes wasn't accurate, and going back to Fagles discovered that now I could read it more easily.  I don't know if this was practice, getting into the right mindset, or what, but it's smoother going now.  I also notice that the online version in the link in the heading, while not very poetic, has very clear wording.

[Babi]

 I have the same problem with Richard Seaford,JUDE. I wondered if his introduction
was a summary of a course on Aeschylus, or if he was hoping to be hired to give one.

 The chorus' odes seem much longer in "Agamemnon". (Yes, I've started reading it.)
I found myself wishing Aeschylus would get on with the story during the long ode
praising Zeus.)

 Thanks, PAT. When I get puzzled with the Seaford version, I'll see what the online
version says.

[PatH]

I love the beginning of this play, when the watchman is standing alone in the dark, looking for light. It's my favorite part.

It's really good theater, isn't it.  The weary, bored watchman, no hope left.  Suddenly he sees a light.  He can hardly believe it at first, then he's overjoyed.  He'll celebrate!  Then the realization that he knows things he won't dare tell the king, that the whole city will have to keep quiet about.

[PatH]

The chorus' odes seem much longer in "Agamemnon". (Yes, I've started reading it.)
I found myself wishing Aeschylus would get on with the story during the long ode
praising Zeus.)

Yes, there seem to be more long choruses in this one, playing a bigger part in the story.  That ode to Zeus is much admired, as is the ode to mankind in Antigone, and in both cases I don't quite see what all the fuss is about.

Another difference from Antigone: since Sophocles invented the third actor, presumably here there are only ever two characters (not counting the chorus) on stage at any one time.  I'd like to know, but am too lazy to work it out, whether a character was always played by the same actor.  It wouldn't have to be, since masks were worn.

[JudeS]

Has anyone found the meaning of Strophe, Antistrophe and now Epode? 
These aren't words used in senrences but titles before someone speaks,.

[PatH]

Here's what Ginny dug up.  My translations don't have them marked; I wish they did.  It boils down to being a structural or poetic thing, rather than a meaning thing, and the metric difference doesn't carry over in translation.

Babi, according to the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature,

The strophe (meaning turn) in Greek lyric poetry and Latin imitation is a stanza. It was said to have derived its name from the performance of choral lyric, in which a stanza or strophe was sung as the chorus proceed in its dance in one direction, followed by a second stanza, the antistrophe, sung when the chorus turned and reversed its dance in the opposite direction. "Astrophic" composition describes extended lyric passages not written in stanza form.

In a Triad in a Greek lyric poem, a group of three stanzas, of which the first two, called strophē and antistrophē are symmetrical, i.e., correspond in metre, but the third, called the epode, has a different though related metrical form. If the poem consists of more than one triad the epodes, at least in Pindar, correspond with one another, as do all the strophes and antistrophes. This form of composition... broke the monotony of a long series of similar stanzas....

It is generally believed that lyric poetry written in triadic form was sung and danced by a chorus, whereas monodic lyric was usually sung by an individual...

That was a good question! Does this help at all?

[PatH]

In Antigone, I thought I could sometimes figure out the strophes and antistrophes, but I can't do that here, where the sections of the chorus are so long.

[PatH]

This site is a hoot.  I came on it by accident when I was looking for something else--the locations of the bonfires.  It's written for teenagers, in a smart-alecky slangy style, but it's an excellent, detailed summary.

I have mixed emotions about it.  I've been slaving over this play for a week, and I feel I've finally mastered it and made it my own.  But here it is, handed to me on a platter, including all the important themes I either figured out or got from all the introductions I've read.  I'm glad I didn't read it first.  So I don't know if I recommend reading much of it or not; I guess I would at least recommend not reading ahead of what you've read in the original.

And I promise that my comments will be what I'd already worked out, unless I say otherwise.

http://www.shmoop.com/agamemnon/detailed-summary.html

[JudeS]

Pat
Thanks so much for your ecxplanatoion of the words that had me stymied.
I also enjoyed the shmoop site.
Made the whole story less difficult. Great background notes.

[Babi]

 Alas, my interpretation introduces words entirely new to me.  After the watchman, we have
a long recital by 'parodos'.     Then we have the chorus, which divides their parts into something called a 'stasimon' ...very long...with a coda by 'chorus'.  The first stasimon contained six strophe/antistrophes.
  Please enlighten me. 

[PatH]

The parodos is two things.  It's the physical area where the chorus enters, and it's what the chorus sings as it comes in.  A stasimon is a poetic interval, sung by the chorus, consisting of several strophe/antistrophe sets, with or without epodes, and probably an epode at the end.  I'm guessing the coda is the epode.  So you have:

Parodos

Stasimon
     strophe/antistrophe
          optional epode
     strophe/antistrophe
          optional epode
     strophe/antistrophe
          optional epode

All of this is sung by the chorus.

After this opening, you would have a series of episodes, in which characters interact, separated by more stasimons.  So the play as a whole is:

Prologue (in this case, the watchman's speech)
Parodos
Stasimon (I think there isn't always a separate stasimon here)
Episode
Stasimon
Episode
Stasimon
etc, etc
Episode
Exodos (the last gasp of the chorus as they go out.

  Here's a more official description:

http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/Classes/US210/Greek-play.html

[PatH]

Babi, if you have the time, will you do me a favor, and give me the first sentence (or part, if it's long) of your parodos, stasimon, and coda.

[JudeS]

Here are some lines that seem appropriate to our times, and all times.
 
lines 373-384

And the penalty for daring what may not be dared has been revealed
to the descendants of those whose pride is greater than is right,
when their house abounds in wealth to excess,
beyond what is best. May it be granted me
to have good sense, so that the gods
are content to leave me free from harm!
For there is no defense
for a man who in the surfeit of his wealth
has kicked the great altar
of justice out of sight.

This reminds me of the never ending parade of crooked politicians from Grecian times to today.

[PatH]

It's interesting to compare translations.  Here's Fagles:

The sky-stroke of god!-it is all Troy's to tell,
but even I can trace it to its cause:
god does as god decrees.
  And still some say
that heaven would never stoop to punish men
who trample the lovely grace of things
untouchable.  How wrong they are!
  A curse burns bright on crime-
    full-blown, the father's crimes will blossom,
      burst into the son's.
Let there be less suffering...
give us the sense to live on what we need.

     Bastions of wealth
     are no defence for the man
     who treads the grand altar of Justice
       down and out of sight

[PatH]

And look what Hughes does:

So heaven strikes.
Zeus is patient--
His law is obscure,
roundabout, but
None can escape it.

Let nobody tell you
Heaven ignores
The desecrator
who mocks and defiles
The holy things--

For they are wrong.
Everywhere
The conceited man
With his lofty scheme
Ruins himself
And everybody near him.

The house where wealth
Cracks the foundations
With its sheer weight
Is a prison
Whose owner dies
In solitary.

What is enough?
Who knows?  Once
A man in the stupor
Of wealth and pride
Has broken heaven's law
And kicked over
The altar of justice
It is too late.

[PatH]

I don't trust Hughes.

But to get back to your point, Jude, modern politicians, Greek and otherwise, could use an obligatory course in Greek drama.

I wonder how crooked politics was in Athens at that time?

[JoanK]

Agammemnon was the first greek play I read. And the opening scene bowled me over: a man standing, 2000 years ago, in the dark, waiting for light.

And that, to me, is what this play is about: us, suffering, looking for light, trying to understand why we suffer. And in suffering and trying to understand, always creating more suffering.

[JoanK]

This isn't Antigone. Remember Antigone said "I bind with love, not with hate: it is my nature." There's no binding with love here in Agamemmnon, it's always the women who bring the suffering: first Helen, who "causes" the Trojan war (never mind that that's nonsense: it's the men who decide to fight a war for such a silly reason -- but I'm giving the playright's view here), then the godess Artemis who demands a sacrifice, then Cassandra with her prophesies of doom, then Clytemnestra.

See if you agree with me.

[JudeS]

Now for a bit of fun..
The translator of my book suggests if we are not satisfied with his REALLY long intro and explanations on each page we may want to read a translation by Edward Frankel in three volumes with a literal translation.
Anyone interested?

[Frybabe]

I was tickled to see that Clytemnestra was able to get early news of the fall of Troy via flames from signal towers strategically placed to the the word out. If I read correctly, it sounds as if she was not entirely believed until the Harald arrived, alive and in person, to announce the news.

[PatH]

If I read correctly, it sounds as if she was not entirely believed until the Harald arrived, alive and in person, to announce the news.

Right.  Women get carried away; you can't trust anything they say.

      "--Just like a woman
to fill with thanks before the truth is clear.

--So gullible.  Their stories spread like wildfire,
  they fly fast and die faster;
rumours voiced by women come to nothing."

[Babi]

 Thanks, PAT. That's exactly what I needed to know. As you requested, here are
the first lines as per George Thomson.
  PARADOS: "Ten years is it since that plaintiff-at-arms
            In the suit against Priam,
             Menelaus, with lord Agamemnon his peer....." 
STASIMON: "Strong am I yet to declare that sign which sped from the palace
             Men in the fulness of power...."
  CODA: (not identified as such, but spoken after Clytemnestra appears on-stage)
            "All honour, Clytemnestra, unto thee!"

 Alas, JUDE, too true! Thomson's translation is also different from those
already posted, but that's probably enough versions of those lines. Let me know
if anyone wants to read what Thomson writes; I do think it is good.

 I think I would exempt Cassandra from the list of women who bring the suffering.
She only tried to warn Troy of the danger, and the men dismissed her as mad.

 FRYBABE & PAT, don't miss the hypocrisy, either.  When Clytemnestra first announced the news, chorus said, "Woman,your gracious words are like a man’s. Most wise in judgment.”    Uh-huh.  So, a woman’s words are generally supposed to be lacking in judgment, I gather.  The polite words to her are quite
different from the opinions expressed among themselves.

[PatH]

Amusing, Babi--there are a lot of little digs like that against women.  Everyone in the play seems very conscious of their notions of what women are like and how they should behave.

Yeah, Jude, just what I need--three more tomes.  Maybe I'll have time tonight after I clean up the kitchen.