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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
...beginning JULY 1.
GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexfirsteditioncover2.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatextitlepage.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexanniversarycover.jpg)
Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012
Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.
"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illchapter1.gif) | Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1
July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illV.gif) |
Chapter I
1. You first impressions of Pip? If he is the central focus of the novel, do you get an idea of his character and how he will develop from the opening pages?
2. We're told that Dickens began Great Expectations, intending to write a light, humorous tale. Do you see any examples of humor in the opening scenes of the book?
3. What can you find about the Hulks? Where are they coming from? Where are they going?
Chapter II
1. Has Pip had any attention, nurturing, or education in the Gargery home that you can see? How is the sister who raised him described? Is she an important character in Pip's formation?
2. What frightens Pip more, the man with the his leg in irons; the other convict who wants his liver, his sister's hand when she discovers he has stolen, or his own conscience if he carries out the convict's request?
3. Is Joe Gargery truly Joe's friend and protector? If so, why did he get him in trouble for bolting his bread? Do you get the sense that this is Christmas Eve in the Gargery house?
Chapter III
1. Does Pip seem to pity the convict's situation, or is he simply terrifyed of his threat? Why did Pip bring him the "veritable feast," and the brandy? Was this necessary?
2. "I couldn't help it, it wasn't for myself," protests Pip to the black ox. Does Pip have a conscience or does he just fear he will get caught?
Chapter IV
1. Were you at all surprised at Pip's description of Mrs. Joe as a hostess?, Fairly perceptive for such a young boy, don't you think? How old is Pip when the story begins?
2. How does the Gargery circle of friends view Pip? Why would Pip not be allowed to address Joe's uncle as Uncle Pumblechook? Do you think he'll be an important person in Pip's life?
3. Sister lists her catalogue of the trouble Pip has been to her, tells the assembled how she has wished him in his grave and then asks, "Why are the young never grateful?" Is Dickens defending orphan children in general from this unfair assessment? [/td][/tr][/table]
Chapter V
1. Why is Pip hopeful that his convict will not be found? Is it simply because he's afraid he'd think he brought the soldiers to the marshes? Is he still fearful of the convict?
2. How did Joe react to the convict's confession that he stole the "wittles" Pip had brought to him? How to explain this pact of silence between Pip and the convict?
Chapter VI
1. Pip loves Joe "because the dear fellow let me love him." What does this tell about Joe's personality?
2. Why does Pip resist telling him the truth about what happened to his file? What does this tell us about Pip's character?
Chapter VII
1. Why is Dickens so cruel in describing Mr. Wopsle's great aunt as that "ridiculous old woman of limited means?" How did you react to this" What kind of an education is Pip at this Educational institution? Who is his primary instructor?
2. How does Pip react to Joe's assertions that Joe's father was "good in his hart" and Pip's sister, Joe's wife is "a fine figure of a woman?" Do you think Joe believes what he tells Pip? Does Pip?
3. Who has the "great expectations" for Pip's future as he heads up to Miss Havisham's? Is he grateful for this opportunity? Who arranged this play date for him?
Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1400/1400-h/1400-h.htm#2HCH0001) |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Who's ready for some more Dickens? I remember thinking after viewing the BBC production of Great Expectations recently that I really had to read Dickens' own words. There were so many liberties taken in what I thought was a quite enjoyable adaptation but some parts were not adequately explained. I suppose that's understandable.
It amazes me that Dickens work has never been out of print since first published in the 19th century. When I read that Dickens "saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes" I understood why these issues are still relevent to today's reader. Do you think he'd be active in the political arena on these issues today?
I got a kick out of the new anniversary cover of the Penguin paperback edition - in the heading. What do you think of it? This is the cover of the books we were giving away from WETA as part of Dickens' birthday celebration.
No matter which edition you choose to read, we really look forward to your participation in July - and August too. There are only 400 pages or so - but we'll take a leisurely pace of approximately 50 pages a week. We fortunate to have all five DLs returning from the Bleak House discussion for alternating parts of the discussion. Post here if you think you might join us and we'll save you a good seat by the AC.
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It's been 50 years since I read this book. I can hardly wait to reread it with all of you and see what it seems like to me now. We're going to find a lot of stuff I missed, and have fun along the way.
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I'm too am glad to be reading this book with all of you. I read it in school about 50 years ago too. (I can't believe it!) So it will be practically like reading it for the first time. I have seen some film adaptations so I do have those in my head, but I look forward to reading Dickens own words. I got a lot out of reading Bleak House here with you.
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One page into the book, and already I’m caught up again by Dickens way
with words. The films simply cannot capture, in dialogue, the richness and
depth of the text.
Do you think he'd be active in the political arena on these issues today?
Oh, definitely, JOAN. Wouldn't he be the perfect writer to bring these issues to the public
attention, especially that portion of the public what tends not to know what's going on
just out of eyesight? Like me. Politics have always been one of life's mysteries to me. :(
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OK - read it a few months ago but sure will find much that I missed. This book is so different in style.
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Glad to hear you'll be joining us, kidsal - as we learned in the Bleak House discussion, the more readers, the more we all get out of it.
50 years ago, Marcie! Doesn't that sound like such a long time ago? It really wasn't, was it?
Many of the same issues that motivated Dickens consume politicians today - social justice - the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes. Please say that you think things have improved somewhat since the nineteenth century?
As Babi pointed out, Dickens have plenty to say on these matters. Would he be writing fiction, or would he be politically involved today?
I'm wondering how many of those reading downloaded versions on Kindles or Nooks find an introduction to Dickens' novel? I'm reading the new Penguin edition - pictured in the heading - with an entertaining and informative introduction by Francine Prose... This is a bit confusing to me, because on the page right before the novel begins I find:
A Note on the Text
"The present edition has been reprinted from Great Expectations by Charles Dickens {Penguin edition, 2003} with an Introduction by David Trotter and edited with notes by Charlotte Mitchell."
Can you check to see who wrote the introduction to the copy you are reading? Maybe we can share a few of the nuggets from each while we wait for the curtain to go up.
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I've come to realize that the first time I read a Dickens book I'm caught
up in the story. It isn't until I read one again that I notice all the great writing he subtly slips in around the action. I find little gems that went right over my head the
first time through.
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JoanP I'm willing to try another Dickens novel, count me in
for the July reading please
Deb
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Would be happy to set out another rocking chair on the porch for you, Deb! Welcome! Do you know which edition - and in which format you'll be reading the book?
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JoanP --at this point only have the gutenberg editon downloaded on my playbook, but I intend to go to the library and check out what they have--how different can the english editions be, or is it in the preface that might give different information about the author/time period etc!!--I seem to remember reading that Dicken's with Bleak House had revised a bit in a future edition that was published; or did I make that up!!
Deb
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I have Norton's Critical Edition
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I hope to get the Norton edition from my library too.
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Hi Marcie
Since I was one of the lucky recipients of the Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition I will be joining you for the discussion.
I read the book as a young teen-ager on my own. I'm sure I will learn a lot in this discussion.
Anyway, the silly cover illustrations make me smile every time I look at them. Good way to start this read -with a smile.
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I'm happy to hear that Norton will be joining us to fill in the blanks when we need him. I'll be reading the Penguin anniversary edition along with you, Jude. Have you read the interesting introduction by Francine Prose yet? Don't worry, there are no spoilers here. She made several interesting observations...did you know that Dickens intended Great Expectations to be a comedy? Though there are some humorous scenes, it is not quite the light comedy that he intended at the outset.
Good to hear that you will be joining us Jude! Welcome! We can always count on you to find the humor in a situation even in the "silly cover." Why do you think Penguin decided to use this cartoon cover for the 150th anniversary of the publication of Great Expectations?
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Jude, that cover makes it look to me like a child's book. I found that I was not ready to read it at 12.
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hi there
I was just able to get a copy of Great Expectations from our 'Orillia Public Library' and the binding reminds me of the old covers on the Reader's Digest 5books/vol groupings
pages are gilded on three sides with simulated gold foil for better wear and esthetic appeal. The cover design-a guenuine guality bonded -leather spine stamped in simulated gold lettering, and carefully reproduced four-colour antique marbleized paper--recreates the finest features of the age-old traditions of European And American antiquarian book design....
actually there was little choice and this book was the prettiest of the two I had to choose from...if I come across any editons with further info about the time period or conditions I will be happier, but at least I have a paper copy to follow the group with
Deb
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Bookad, is that the Harvard Classics edition of the book?
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Since I won my own copy of the book and don't remember reading it in school, I will give it a try in July.
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I'll be here. My Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition is at the ready.
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Marcie inside the cover it states 'Chatham River Press Classics'
am going to try and find something with information about the writing or
composition of this book; like one of the books I had when reading Bleak House
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Thanks, Bookad. Yes, it's interesting to have an edition with an introduction and/or chapter notes.
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I was greatly intrigued by JOANP's information that Dickens had intended Great Expectations
to be a comedy. Now that I know that, it is easy to recognize the scenes that could make
great comedy. It adds an entirely new element to my re-reading of the book.
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This is what Francine Prose writes in the intro to the new Penguin Classics:
"For all that Dicken,s intended to write something funny and "Exceedingly droll" .......Great Expectations is among the saddest of all of Dicken's novels, and the one in which we may find confirmation of our most un-Victorian fears about the possibility and the limits of self-improvement".
The memory that lingers from this book when I was 12 or 13 was that it was VERY scary. I thought that when I saw the original movie version as well as the latest PBS version. In fact after reading this book back then I never tried another Dickens even though we had all his books. (My parents were British). With little choice I had to read "A Tale of Two Cities" in H.S. I loved that book but it still didn't persuade me to return to Dickens. Now with you the help of Seniorlearn I am beginning to understand his greatness.
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Your comments and quote are helping me understand, JUDE. This books is difficult to analyze
and discuss, perhaps precisely because it turned out to be a mixture of funny and scary. It
jumps from the verge of slapstick to serious psychological effects on a growing boy.
Add to that the fact that I'm finding it hard to take notes, simply because I become engrossed
in the story and forget I'll need to discuss it. :(
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Back Home and looking forward to July 1 - almost unpacked...
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Back home again, too, after a wonderful time on Cape Cod. A wonderful place to explore, and we (the family at first and now just my wife and I) have kept on going back over the years. Henry Beston's 'outermost house' was still there the first time we went, behind the dunes, abandoned and half full of sand. And then one summer it was gone. The little rabbits feeding on the clover beside the trail overlooking the vast Nauset marsh are more numerous than ever at twilight; and the Parnassas book store in Barnstable is as richly stocked as ever. And so is the Ocean of Books place in Wellfleet. But the best book buys are in the public libraries. A buck a bag! I walked out with two in Chatham. In Eastham I got the new Mark Twain for a couple of bucks (three!) And that brings up a curious meditation. I had come to the conclusion, after reading the many comments here and the previous Dickens discussion, that my greatest regret is not having read Dickens in my teens, in those impressionable years. I did however enjoy Mark Twain. How different my dreams might have been. To be an English gentleman, rather than rafting down the Mississipi.
What is it about politics you don't understand, Babi? Think of it as being the character of a country and many things fall into place. Some countries have more of it than others.
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I found it up in the attic. I'm checking in with a dog-eared, non-classical, uncritical Penguin edition from long ago. I'll do the best I can with it.
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Geee, Jonathan, I think of you as an English gentleman, even though you didn't read Dickens as a boy! Sound like a lovely vacation. It's funny we're coming back from vacations - just in time for July - and Dickens!
A dog-eared Penguin, eh? Is the cover anything like the anniversary Penguin edition in the heading? I'll bet we have a variety of editions in here. If anyone finds him/herself without a copy for Sunday, not to worry. There's always the old reliable Gutenberg online version - find the link to that in the heading.
I'm hoping that we approach the reading of this novel a bit differentlly..though the plot line is quite engrossing, as Jude has discovered. Let's try to find things we didn't know, that we are finding out for the first time - like where does the name "Pip" came from. It's been a while since I read this - had totally forgotten. Pretty important for us, Dickens' scholars, to know that, don't you think?
Let's be aware of Dickens' writing too - beyond the plot line... And let's be aware of the issues of the day that were motivating him as he wrote this story. The young Jonathan would probably have overlooked all of these issues, as he anguished along with Pip over the lovely Estella.
Are we ready? Sunday - or Monday- Volume I - first 7 chapters! Important ones too. I'll meet you here!
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I think we will definitely have to approach this one differently, JOAN. For one thing, you have
the current story line, interwoven with the older Pip's reflections on it. Some chapters are very
short, others much longer. You have broad humor contrasting with shocking cruelty. It can be
bewildering.
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JONATHAN, it is the political frame of mind that throws me. The self-interest, the
cut-throat duplicity, the hidden motives. I learned early on that even the 'office
politics' went over my head. I was terribly naive, and to some extent I probably still
am. I may be cynical about believing what I hear, or read, now. But I still expect well
of people until they prove differently. On the plus side, either my instincts or my
reading of body language is much, much better. I know now when a person is 'off kilter',
so to speak.
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A gentleman, of course, I hope, Joan. In the company of ladies.
A fine response on the nature of politics, Babi.
Yes, Joan, I'm smitten by the lovely Estella. And, as a consequence, suffering Pip's anguish, and the ambition that grows out of it. Or is it idealism?
The cover of my GE features a detail of 'A Country Blacksmith' by Turner. Try this link:
http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/turner-a-country-blacksmith-disputing-upon-the-price-of-iron-and-the-price-charged-to-the-n00478
What a contrast to the cover on the anniversary edition. Clearly meant to appeal to a new generation. I suppose we will have to decide whether the book is a political tract or an English fairy tale.
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To me, the 'lovely Estella' is being formed into a female monster. I would like to
think she will turn out all right, but we all know what a powerful influence early
development is in a child.
Thanks for that painting of the blacksmith, JONATHAN. Messy looking place,wasn't
it? If Turner intended this to represent Joe Gargary's place, I wonder where he
came up with the butcher arguing about the price of shoeing his pony? Don't think
that's in the book. So real, tho', I would think Turner actually witnessed such a
scene.
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I did a little research on Richard Sala who did the cover illustrations. He is indeed a well known graphic novel/comic artist.
You are probably right that it is an attempt to get youngsters interested in classics. Someone on one of the sites I looked at mentioned the Classic Comics series. Remember those? I think they did the whole book in comic form, not just the covers. Another comment I ran across that those looking for graphics/comics on the inside would be disappointed. Penguin also had comic covers done for The Canterbury Tales and, would you believe, The Communist Manifesto. There may be others by now.
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The painting by Turner is great and finely detailed. However it was painted in 1806 and Dickens was writing his book some fifty years later. The Blacksmith's shop may have changed much in those years.
I don't think that Joe shoed horses as Blacksmiths did in earlier days.
Along the way, reading about the picture, I learned that the name Smith came from the word 'smite' and a shoer of horses was called a 'farrier'.
You may know this but it was interesting and new for me.
In remembering "Classic Comics" from my childhood (Thanks Frybabe for the memory) i read all of them. They were really good reductions of the classics and familiarized me with all the names which I came upon them in later life. I don't know if the new covers of Penguin Classics will do the same for the modern generation.
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"I don't think that Joe shoed horses as Blacksmiths did in earlier days."
I'm really looking forward to read what Joe Gargery and his father before him did in the smithy shop, Jude - This is a very small village - the horse was the way folks got around - and they needed shoes as much as they ever did. Pip is hoping to become Joe's apprentice. Can you tell us why you think there isn't much of a future for Pip in the trade? Maybe this is an important point.
I can't wait to begin tomorrow. I agree with Babi is saying - in this novel "you have
the current story line, interwoven with the older Pip's reflections on it. You have broad humor contrasting with shocking cruelty." We all pretty much know the plot, or at least it's easy to follow - as in the Classics Illustrated...but I hope we can delve a little deeper - into the motivations of the grown-ups who seem to be manipulating Pip. They seem to have their own "great expectations" for his future and they don't always have Pip's best interests in mind. We have to decide whether he was really better off leaving the forge behind. Who knows, we might decide he was!
Till tomorrow!
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What a beginning! The last TV version we saw did not do it justice. Dickens words brought out the scene more vividly than the production, IMO. I could see the convict shivering and coated with slime and mud, and his limp. I could see Pip being tilted back slowly for emphasis when the convict spoke. And the description of the graves made a bigger impression on my mind that the TV scene did.
My first thoughts about Pip were that he is impressionable and imaginative. He is trying to get some idea of who he is and who is family were by imagining what his parents looked like from the design of the lettering on the gravestones. His meeting up with the convict must have left a deep impression on him, being so young and not having any experience with such people.
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I would really find it helpful to know how old Pip is. I do know children were considered adult
at a much earlier age than we do, but one's outlook, understanding and judgment depend so
much on one's age.... and experience.
You are so right, FRYBABE. The films simply cannot capture the richness and depth of the text.
They do have the advantage of allowing us to actually see the background scenes of the story,
so much can be added by the quality of the photography. And good actors can add so much
to our understanding of what's happening. I learned that when I first saw a good production of
Shakespeare. "Oh, that's what it meant!"
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Shakespeare is definitely a special case as far as actually seeing a production over just reading it. It is probably because of the older English styles of language he used, but I also find seeing it most helpful to understanding the play.
I did a little checking. I saw Pip's age listed in various sites at anywhere from 7 to 12. According to the various sources, the only time an age is mentioned is when he turned 21.
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Seven to twelve would seem to be the right range, Frybabe. With Pip being closer to seven than to twelve, since Joe is carrying Pip most of the time they spend with the soldiers hunting down the escaped convict.
Another classic Dickens opener, complex mood and atmosphere, with drollery combined with terror. This author plays with his readers' feelings. The classic edition has an introduction that suggests that GE is the saddest book. My edition has an introduction that claims GE is the happiest of Dickens's books!
What a great set of questions. I'm impressed by the extensive narrative ground Dickens covers in these early chapters. By and large it seems to be all about relationships that Pip develops with those around him. I have Pip's feelings of guilt gradually rubbing off on the convict. These two seem suited to each other. Or seem complementary to each other.
Talk of injustices and inequalities as favorite themes in Dickens. I believe he is more alive to the inhumanities around him. Among the poor and lowly. And that's the difference between him and Shakespeare. Shakespeare dramatized the lives of kings and queens, church prelates and assorted princes of this world. The common man gets top billing with Dickens. It seems to me.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
...beginning JULY 1.
GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexfirsteditioncover2.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatextitlepage.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexanniversarycover.jpg)
Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012
Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.
"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illchapter1.gif) | Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1
July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illV.gif) |
Chapter I
1. You first impressions of Pip? If he is the central focus of the novel, do you get an idea of his character and how he will develop from the opening pages?
2. We're told that Dickens began Great Expectations, intending to write a light, humorous tale. Do you see any examples of humor in the opening scenes of the book?
3. What can you find about the Hulks? Where are they coming from? Where are they going?
Chapter II
1. Has Pip had any attention, nurturing, or education in the Gargery home that you can see? How is the sister who raised him described? Is she an important character in Pip's formation?
2. What frightens Pip more, the man with the his leg in irons; the other convict who wants his liver, his sister's hand when she discovers he has stolen, or his own conscience if he carries out the convict's request?
3. Is Joe Gargery truly Joe's friend and protector? If so, why did he get him in trouble for bolting his bread? Do you get the sense that this is Christmas Eve in the Gargery house?
Chapter III
1. Does Pip seem to pity the convict's situation, or is he simply terrifyed of his threat? Why did Pip bring him the "veritable feast," and the brandy? Was this necessary?
2. "I couldn't help it, it wasn't for myself," protests Pip to the black ox. Does Pip have a conscience or does he just fear he will get caught?
Chapter IV
1. Were you at all surprised at Pip's description of Mrs. Joe as a hostess?, Fairly perceptive for such a young boy, don't you think? How old is Pip when the story begins?
2. How does the Gargery circle of friends view Pip? Why would Pip not be allowed to address Joe's uncle as Uncle Pumblechook? Do you think he'll be an important person in Pip's life?
3. Sister lists her catalogue of the trouble Pip has been to her, tells the assembled how she has wished him in his grave and then asks, "Why are the young never grateful?" Is Dickens defending orphan children in general from this unfair assessment?
Chapter V
1. Why is Pip hopeful that his convict will not be found? Is it simply because he's afraid he'd think he brought the soldiers to the marshes? Is he still fearful of the convict?
2. How did Joe react to the convict's confession that he stole the "wittles" Pip had brought to him? How to explain this pact of silence between Pip and the convict?
Chapter VI
1. Pip loves Joe "because the dear fellow let me love him." What does this tell about Joe's personality?
2. Why does Pip resist telling him the truth about what happened to his file? What does this tell us about Pip's character?
Chapter VII
1. Why is Dickens so cruel in describing Mr. Wopsle's great aunt as that "ridiculous old woman of limited means?" How did you react to this" What kind of an education is Pip at this Educational institution? Who is his primary instructor?
2. How does Pip react to Joe's assertions that Joe's father was "good in his hart" and Pip's sister, Joe's wife is "a fine figure of a woman?" Do you think Joe believes what he tells Pip? Does Pip?
3. Who has the "great expectations" for Pip's future as he heads up to Miss Havisham's? Is he grateful for this opportunity? Who arranged this play date for him?
Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1400/1400-h/1400-h.htm#2HCH0001); Dickens and Victorian Education (http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/schools-and-education/victorian-education.html) |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Pip seems like a good little boy who has a terrible guilty conscience when he has to choose between being maimed by the scary old man who threatened him at the cemetary and stealing food for the man from his forbidding older sister who he calls Mrs. Joe, who is proud of having brought him up "by hand" with beatings from her "tickler." Luckily he has his uncle Joe for a friend.
Marj
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Here we are talking of a movie/TV production giving us information that helps us place the story and Pip is trying to remember his mother without aid of even a photo. Ironic...
We are so used to having photos of deceased close family members that it is difficult to imagine having no clue - with everyone depending on sharing their memory picture of folks - this all reminded me of my experience in the 1990s of hiking in the mountains of Northwest Mexico - there were 8 of us with one guy from Lubbock organizing the trip who had a small thatched roof two room house in a small village next to a river that was used for everything - During our hiking for days in the area, with a burro and a local villager as a guide we came across families that lived in houses carved out of the side of mountains and many women who had to plant and bring in the crop of corn, their only food source not knowing when or if ever their husbands would return from seeking work for money in either Northern Mexico or the US. This is when you learn that families live on what they can grow each year and if the winter is longer or the crop small it is usual for at least one child and the elderly to die. We hiked with the burro weighted down with bags of rice and beans that we gave especially to these women living alone caring for their children.
We would take photos and the guy from Lubbock would return to the areas that his group hiked (he lead two hikes in Spring and one in Summer) to give the families the photos taken. No one had a poloroid camera.
The most startling and memorable experience was when hiking through tall grass a handlebar mustached guy rides up on horseback looking every bit like a Bandido with pistols on both hips and a rifle on either side of his saddle. He tells us - not asks but tells us - to stop and wait - and yes, with butterflies in our stomachs we freeze in our tracks and wait - about 5 minutes later he rides up would you believe with a young boy child around 2 sitting behind the horn of his saddle, his grandson, and asks us to take their photo - relief and smiles all around -
We hike only another two miles or so and a young man in his late 20s meets up with us - his family was photographed during the earlier trip that Spring - the guy from Lubbock who arranged the trip hands him his photos and he bursts into tears - seems his father had died only weeks before and these are the only photos they had of his father. Much thanks and do we want water which is as precious as gold since we are up high away from the river - we decline but squat down with him for a bit as he keeps looking at the likeness of his father while tears flow - sobbing he talks on about his father. My Spanish is not that good but I could get enough to know the father was being eulogies for us.
Amazing how something as simple as a photograph can mean so much - our lifestyle allows us to take so much for granted - so that I can feel the yearning Pip must have to try to reconstruct in his mind's eye his mother's likeness.
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Let's put together an image of Pip from what you've posted yesterday - he's young, between the ages of 7-12. We seem to agree closer to 7 since Joe was able to carry him a distance after the escaped convict.
He
Barbara, that's a touching story- not even a photograph. I seem to remember that Pip only recently has discovered the churchyard cemetery and his family's gravesite...covered with brambles. "Mrs. Joe" has clearly not been visiting or tending her parents' grave...and that of the five little Pirrips.
Quick now, without looking it up, do you remember Pip's name? And his sister's? Why do you suppose she is referred to as Mrs. Joe? Does Pip know it? She is said to be 20 years older than Pip. Maybe she had married Joe before Pip was born and that's the only name Pip knew?
Frybabe finds him imaginative...and impressionable and he does seem to have a conscience as Marji observed. Or is he just frightened?
What frightens Pip more, the man with the his leg in irons; the other convict who wants his liver, his sister's hand when she discovers he has stolen, or his own conscience if he carries out the convict's request?
Is he aware that what he is doing is wrong?
I'm wondering why he didn't confide in Joe Gargery. He didn't seem to need or want advice. He is intent on getting wittles and the file back to the convict. And why such a sumptious feast - the brandy, the pie? Maybe there is something to what Jonathan is saying about him - is he sensitive to the convict's dire situation - or is he simply afraid of him?
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Every source I've seen says Pip is seven when the story begins. He is still at an age where fanrasy and reality are blurred.
(According to the accepted expert, the Swiss Jean Piaget) The ability to differentiate between fact and fiction (or imagination) occurs for most (though not for all) around eight years.
Therefore Pip takes seriously the threats he hears (I''ll eat your liver). He has been abused by his sister but loved by his Uncle Joe. Joe is a kindly surrogate father to Pip. Pip is generally a good child, learns his ABC's and tries to help Joe learn too, as he shares his knowledge. So Pip's character at the begginning of this story is basically kind and helpful, if terribly naive.
We, or at least I, immediately love and care about this little boy that for his bravery and his goodness (even if prompted by fear)..
Dickens, as usual, gives us characters to love and characters to hate from the beginning. And of course he whets our curiosity with people like the convict.
Oh, I am so hooked.
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Just thinking aloud. If Pip is seven and his sister is 20 years older than he is, that would make her 27 when the story begins and 20 years old when he was born. Pip never knew his mother or father so they must have died shortly after his birth (his father could have died first, some months prior to his birth). His sister could well have been married before Pip was born. I can see Joe wanting to care for the orphaned Pip more than I see his sister wanting to be "saddled" with him, although she at least agreed to raise Pip (if it was Joe's wish). It's possible it was her sense of duty that caused her to raise him. It's an awful picture but quite a vivid one, with some humor, that Dickens paints with his phrase, she "raised him by hand."
His name made an impression on me so I do remember Philip Pirrip. I have forgotten his sister's name.
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It does seem to me that though Pip is very much afraid of the convict,...and even more
afraid of the terrible young described by his captor...fear would have only driven him
to do as he was told. The additions of the pie and the brandy seems to be a sensitive
awareness of the man's pitiful condition. I think Jonathan's right.
Joe Gargary is described as “a mild, good-natured, sweet-tempered, easy-going, foolish, dear
fellow- a sort of Hercules in strength and also in weakness.” I immediately found myself
wondering, what were Hercules weaknesses? I found a couple of opinions that his weakness
was lust and gluttony, but that certainly does not fit Joe Gargary. The weakness that probably
fits best is the Hercules was not noted for a high IQ. I suspect that is also true of the 'mild,
good-natured’ Joe.
A dry bit of humor, I almost missed it. Pip, terrified at the thought he has encountered the
murderous 'young man’ who would eat his heart and liver, “felt his heart shoot”. “I dare say I would have felt a pain in my liver, too, if I had known where it was.”
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Babi, there are a number of dry humorous comments like that - thanks for sharing that one. I liked that Pip thought his mother's name was "Also Georiana" - as was written on the tombstone...and also that fact that that's all it said about her, almost an afterthought indicating that she is buried there too..
It seems that his sister never talks about their parents - Pip discovered the gravesite and the names by accident.
Do you think Pip senses that Joe is no match for Mrs. Joe? He isn't much protection- she's "government" So he steals Joe's file, afraid to tell Joe that he is going to do it. The boy has no confidant really, no one to share these fears with.
I still want to know why the woman is not called by her name. Marcie, I don't think you've forgotten it because I don't think she tells her name - at least in these chapters. Even Joe calls her Mrs. Joe. Maybe Dickens will let us know in later chapters. But Pip's name - yes, Phillip Pirrip. Pip is just perfect. We have a friend whose name is Phillip - he's always been "Flip"...
Didn't you find her interesting, Marcie? She has no children of her own - just Pip, and she wastes no time telling everyone how she wishes him in his grave...bragging how she's raised him "by hand." Something happened to her to make her so bitter, don't you think? What effect does this have on the little boy? Don't you wonder how he became so Kind and helpful, Jude, coming from such an environment? I wonder how his parents died. Did Dickens explain that and I've forgotten?
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JoanP
The book doesn't tell us when Pip's parents died. He may have experienced their love and kindnes till age three or four.
Certainly after losing five little boys in a row before Pip's birth they would shower this living boy with much love and adoration.
We also don't know who died first, his Mother or his Father. But Pip is much loved by Joe and this gives him the strength to weather his sister's cruel remarks and even her blows.
Pip came to this family of Joe and his sister after already having been loved enough to have his character set in a certain direction. However the cruelty of his sister will also have its effects on his character as time goes by.
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does it surprise anyone that Pip's sister treats him as she does? Her own brother. Is she mean spirited because the boys were more important in her family to begin with? And then Joe takes a shine to him. Jealousy? does she feel she is being put in second place behind a brother - again? Simple age difference doesn't cut it with me. Where are her maternal instincts?
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I don't think it was customary in those days to address a married woman by her first
name. Close female friends might, of course, but the more formal 'Mrs..." was customary.
Perhaps since everyone probably called Joe by his first name, his wife simply became
'Mrs. Joe'.
Her method of ‘bringing up’ Pip ‘by hand’ was also most uncomfortable. “I was always
treated as though I had insisted on being born in opposition to the dictates of reason,
religion, and morality, and against the dissuading arguments of my best friends.”
Pure Dickens... “Mrs. Joe was a very clean housekeeper, but had an exquisite art of
making her cleanliness more uncomfortable and unacceptable than dirt itself. Cleanliness
is next to Godliness, and some people do the same by their religion. “
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I am thinking that Pip's parents died when he was a very young infant and he didn't experience either their nurture or neglect, since he says in the second paragraph of the book, "As I never saw my father or my mother, and never saw any likeness of them... my first fancies of what they were like, were unreasonably derived from their tombstones."
What a great beginning to the book!!
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The Godliness of some people! Better they should be Godless.
Who deserves pity and sympathy in this tale? Are they getting it? The convict? The stessed wife? The frightened, conscience-ridden child? Try falling asleep, wondering where your liver is located. How it would taste to someone else. Only in Dickens. Dickens was advised to get the humor back into his writing - after Bleak House and Tale of Two Cities. Isn't iti obvious how hard he is trying?
I liked Barbara's illustration of the importance of pictures. And isn't that exactly what we are always getting from Dicken's. Such vivid pictures. I remember reading about a ball in his honor in New York duing his first visit to America. The walls were covered with the images of his characters. Instantly recognizable.
Pity poor Mrs Joe. Only, as she says, a blacksmith's wife. Living a life of duty. While her brother is destined for a life of expectation, one way or another. Of course I'm not sure what is meant by great expectation. Is it wishful thinking or a moral imperative. For the young Pip it is felt very strongly that everyone is expecting something of him. It leaves him feeling so guilty he can hardly sleep.
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The time and thought an author must put into the opening lines of a book! I always pay attention to the dedication and the opening line when starting a new book.
Though my Penguin edition shows no dedication - (I thought maybe because it was first printed in seriel form in Dickens' magazine) - I did a quick search of the first rough manuscript and found some interesting facts -
"The first page of the text shows how Dickens was constantly revising his work: in the famous opening line, ‘My father’s family name being Pirrip, and my christian name Philip ...', ‘infant’ is written above a crossed-out word – ‘childish’, perhaps? Such changes throughout the manuscript must have made the task of the printer’s compositor a difficult one
Chauncy Hare Townshend (1798–1868), to whom the [original] manuscript is dedicated, was a friend who shared Dickens's interest in mesmerism and the occult. He left the manuscript, along with the crystal ball with which he and Dickens experimented, and many other books and artefacts, to the Wisbech and Fenland Museum"
"Pity poor Mrs Joe." Jonathan
For some reason I believed that Pip's mother died in childbirth. She didn't have an easy time giving birth - judging from the tiny lozenge-shaped stones marking the buriel sites of his brothers. I'm assuming that the sister is the only living sibling and since she was 20 years older than Pip, I'm also assuming that she watched her mother lose infant after infant. It isn't any wonder that she would not want to go through the same agony herself..
The woman has a story, but I'm not expecting Dickens to get into it. I think we will have to just accept that Pip has been raised from a very young age by what assumes to be a very miserable, hardened woman. I agree with you, Marcie...I think that Pip has had a childhood deprived of care and nurture. Could be she resents the baby because she lost her mother this time, rather than just another brother.
It's a wonder to me that she married our dear Mr. Joe. Did she expect happiness? Was this her great expectation? Did marriage to Joe make her happy? Would she have been happy without the burden of the baby thrust upon her?
Frybabe, I hadn't considered that she might be jealous of the warm, natural relationship between her husband and her brother. Yes, I still pity this woman - who seems to have no life and no expectations.
Babi that's an interesting observation about the custom of using the more formal "Mrs." at the time - but to have your little brother call you Mrs. Joe? Does that indicate that she wanted to keep him from getting too close to her - if he called her by her given name? There was another odd note about Pip not being allowed to address Joe's Uncle Pumblechook as "uncle" - had to use the formal Mr. Pumblechook with him... How did you understand this?
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I'm here, but not posting much, as my computer is having temper tantrums.
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I'm here as well; just got in from Ottawa where there was no internet available to me. So I missed out of the end of the book Run as well. Almost thru chapter 7.
Deb
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Time to get Tickler after that unruly computer, JoanK. Until it gets better, keep reading okay? Need to know you are here.
Deb - I guess you missed the storms and the heat in Ottowa? Lucky, lucky you! Due to the power outages, we've kept Run open a few extra days. Would be interested to hear what your final thoughts on that book too.
Let's look closely at the convict and his attitude towards Pip when he returns with the file and the "wittles" - did you notice a change in him? By the time Pip returns to the marches with Joe, Pip is routing for his convict to escape. A change in Pip too?
Is Dickens leaving enough room for this convict's innocence as he tackles the other convict to return him to the Hulks? Can anyone find information regarding these ships? Where are they coming from? Where are they going?
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Now that you mentioned it, JOANP, I'm not certain whether Pip addressed his sister as Mrs. Joe, or simply referred to her by that name, as everyone else did. When speaking directly to her, he more likely just said, 'Yes, ma'am' and 'No, ma'am'.
The convict was definitely surprised, and touched, by Pip's thoughtful gesture.
Afterwards, Pip did not seem to be afraid of him, tho' he continued to be terrified at
the thought of the fictitious bloodthirsty young man. Then once safely home, he
must deal with the terrors of being discovered as the one who had stolen the food
and the file. Heavy burdens for so young a child.
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Did you participate in the July I celebrations in Ottawa, Deb?
Happy July 4, to everyone south of the border. Something of me was in Gatlinburg, Tennessee, last night. Did it rain? My teenage granddaughter and her marching band are there to participate in the midnight parade and other events. She's seldom home. Last December her band marched along with the others in Pearl Harbor. After that the Santa Claus parade here in Toronto, and next year it's Dublin for the St Patrick's Day's parade. Why midnight? Is it too hot during the day? But no. There are all kinds of musical things going on in the plaza all day. I must remember to watch the program at the Capitol tonight. Surely it won't be rained out like the Memorial Day event.
Great expectations, everybody. You too, Miss Havisham. And Magwitch. And Mrs Joe.
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Dicken's in his infinite brilliance describes Joe as what is known as a HELPING WITNESS.
A helping witness is a person who stands by an abused child offering support and acting as a balance against the cruelty that otherwise dominates the childs life. They give sympathy and affection to the child. They trust the child and help them feel they are not bad or evil but worthy of kindness from others.Even though the person (Joe) may not be aware of their role,
children in difficult situations can see that there is such a thing as love in the world. In the best cases the child learns how to develop trust in their fellow human beings and see the abusers as an anomaly rather than identifying with the abuser and becoming one themself.
Honestly, I sometimes think that Freud must have read Dicken's and then developed some of his theories based on the characters in the books.
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"The convict was definitely surprised, and touched, by Pip's thoughtful gesture."
Even the most hardened criminal responds to thoughtful gestures, is that what Dickens is implying here, Babi? Likewise the "helping witness" who stands by an abused child offering support as Jude describes Joe.
"Freud must have read Dicken's and then developed some of his theories based on the characters in the books." How very interesting, Jude. But that leaves the question - where is Dickens getting his psychological insights from? Perhaps from observation...
I noted one comment - in chapter 6, where Dickens writes, "Pip loves Joe because in the early days the dear fellow let me love him." Maybe that's all it takes -Too bad his sister wasn't able to do the same. Do you think she is jealous of the closeness between Pip and Joe?
Jonathan, I've great expectations of the grand fireworks display on the mall in DC tonight - along with so many neighbors still without power from the recent storm! We'll still turn out to sing "Happy Birthday, America!"
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I didn't know what Tar-Water was, so I looked it up. It is a solution made with pine sap/pitch and water. Yuck!
Interestingly, Dickens described two pair of Staffordshire dogs sitting on Mrs. Joe's mantel in the room that is only used for company occasions. They may be pricey now, but apparently they were produced starting in the 1700s sometime for working class home decor. I wanted to confirm that, but my wireless connection gets flaky down here for some reason.
Poor little Pip, having to put up with that bunch of adults who seem to assume that because he is a boy he is automatically bad and needs a morality lesson every chance they can squeeze one into the conversation. He himself fears the worst of himself. Ah, conscience can be a powerful thing. If it doesn't prevent you from straying, it can unleash a powerful and sustaining self-torture.
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I hadn't heard the term 'helping witness' before, JUDE. That is exactly what Joe is
doing for Pip, isn't it? Freud, is it? Good start to the morning; Ilearned something
new.
The sensitivity of children. As Dickens says, “...the child is small, and his world
is small...” Pip feels strongly the injustice of his sister’s way of ‘raising him by
hand’. I can remember feeling strongly the small injustices of my childish world. The
more so, I imagine, because I felt so helpless to set them right.
Pip's treatment at the hands of all his sister's friends is incredible. I suppose it's a fine
example of 'birds of a feather'. And Pumblechook is one of the worst.
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Freud did indeed admire Dickens. I don't remember where I read it, but here's a comment on it; it deals with David Copperfield, not Great Expectations.
http://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-david-copperfield/ideasforreportsandpapers.html (http://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-david-copperfield/ideasforreportsandpapers.html)
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Remember when we read Bleak House, we were stunned by the number of orphans in Dickens' work... Esther, Jo, David C, and now another one - Pip. It helps to know that Freud was a reader, and admirer of Dickens' work, PatH. There's a book by Carol Dever of Vanderbilt, who analized texts by Dickens, Collins, Eliot, Darwin and Woolf, as well as Freud:
Death and the Mother from Dickens to Freud: Victorian Fiction and the Anxiety of Origins
"Victorian novels almost always represent mothers as incapacitated, abandoning or dead... Maternal loss is the prerequisite for Victorian representations of domestic life, a fact which has especially complex implications for women. When Freud constructs psychoanalytical models of family, gender and desire, he too assumes that domesticity begins with the death of the mother." Carol Dever
In a way, though she was a bit older, Mrs. Joe, was an orphan herself - one who came from a home with no working example of what a wife and mother was all about. Though she was harsh in manner and tongue to Pip, "unjust" as you point out, Babi - you have to keep in mind where this woman was coming from and her intentions, I think. The Tar-water Frybabe describes is a good example. She really wasn't trying to torture Pip, was she?
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"Poor little Pip, having to put up with that bunch of adults"
Frybabe, I had to keep reminding myself that this "merry" little gathering takes place on Christmas Eve....
I was most surprised when the Wopsles, the Hubbles and Mr. Pumblechoot turned up in the Gargerys' parlor to celebrate. A new way of looking Mrs. Joe - she had friends! No children, but like-minded folks, invited to share a sumptuous meal prepared by this poor blacksmith's wife, who had so much to do, she had to go to church vicariously! Didn't you enjoy the way Dickens introduced the tar water that had been administered to Pip for bolting his food. That gets us ready for the moment Uncle Pumblechoot takes his first swig of brandy. Dickens is still trying to make this into a humorous novel...
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'Lor-a-mussy me!' cried my sister.
'Pip, I hope you'll overlook shortcomings.' Joe to Pip, meaning Mrs Joe's tough love in Pip's upbringing.
'Your sister is a fine figure of a woman.'
'Your sister is given to government...of you and myself.'
'Your sister's a maste-mind. A master-mind.'
'Lord have mercy on me! cried my sister, casting off her bonnet in sudden desperation, here I stand talking to mere Mooncalfs, wth Uncle Pumblechook waiting, and the mare catching cold at the door, and the boy grimed with crock and dirt from the hair of his head to the sole of his foot.'
Raised by hand. Everyone, it seems to me, is taking a hand in Pip's upbringing. He's growing up in the lap of plenty. Looking to the stars for help and pity, as he does, is ridiculous. Look for the ingratitude, which is sure to follow.
I'm surprised that Freud was taken in by Dickens's child psychology.
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Pat
Thanks so much for verifying the connection between Dickend and Freud.
It was just a stab in the dark on my part.
Dickens is so astute in his observations, chooses such complex,deprived heros and heroines that he sets himself an impossible task if he wants his book to be humorous. Of course there will be humorous moments but basically the situations he describes are so dire that humor really doesn't come to mind.
Perhaps Dickens tried to make Mr. Pumble...... so bad that he was funny. The problem is that he describes such a base human being that it is impossible to find him funny. Disgusting, self serving and mean he is. Hard to see that as funny.
Especially as it effects our Pip.
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When I was a child I heard about spirit of turpentine as being an excellent nostrum.We had some in the house. Dreadful stuff. The tar water sounds something like that.
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Ah, yes. Mr Pumblechook needs Mrs Joe's help with his grocery shopping!
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I wonder if Freud ever saw the humor in Dickens.
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Jonathan, an interesting question. I'd imagine if Freud had a sense of humor, he'd recognize the dry humor here...unless he is so caught up in these mean-spirited characters that he fails to see the humor. Jude, will you take the role of Freud here, and let us know if/when you see anything that makes you smile? I'm finding Pip's reactions and responses, particularly humorous. He rarely fails to say what he is thinking, in an understated way, of course - I like the way that Dickens lets us into his thought process, even when he doesn't tell adults outright what he thinks. I like the way he is able to speak freely to Joe, too - another way we get insight into what he is thinking. I don't see him too distressed from the constant barrage of criticism. Maybe he's used to it.
It is Uncle Pumblechook - he is Joe's uncle - who brokers the connection with Miss Haversham. Before we get into a discussion of the new opportunities opening up to Pip, we leave behind that convict, in custody - heading back to the Hulks from which he had escaped. I was curious to learn where he was going - certain we would be hearing more of this guy.
I learned a few things about these hulks:
"A prison hulk was a hulk used as a floating prison. They were used extensively in Great Britain, the Royal Navy producing a steady supply of ships too worn-out to use in combat, but still afloat. The harbour location of prison hulks was also convenient for the temporary holding of persons being transported to Australia and elsewhere overseas. These were decommissioned in the mid-19th century.
The vessels were a common form of internment in Britain and elsewhere in the 18th and 19th centuries. Charles F. Campbell writes that around 40 ships of the British Navy were converted for use as prison hulks.[3] Other hulks included HMS Warrior, which became a prison ship at Woolwich in February 1840,[4] One was established at Gibraltar, others at Bermuda, at Antigua, off Brooklyn in Wallabout Bay, and at Sheerness. Other hulks were anchored off Woolwich, Portsmouth, Chatham, Deptford, and Plymouth-Dock/Devonport.[5] Private companies owned and operated the hulks holding prisoners bound for penal transportation."
Charles Dickens' novel Great Expectations opens in 1812 with the escape of the convict from hulk moored in the Thames Estuary. In fact, the prison ships were largely moored in the neighboring River Medway, but Dickens combined real elements to create fictional locations for his work."
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Discovery_at_Deptford.jpg/778px-Discovery_at_Deptford.jpg)
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Pip's education -
What did you think of Mr. Wopsle's great aunt's "Institution of Learning"? Who is Biddy? (what kind of a name is Biddy?) I was under the impression she is Pip's age - but she seems to be the "teacher" doesn't she? Does this little schoolhouse pass for education at this time? My oh my. If Pip was to become Joe's apprentice in the forge, education isn't too important for that occupation. His future doesn't look too bright, does it. Education, except for the wealthy was not a priority in Victorian England was it? Do you think Dickens is making a statement about this situation. He called for many reforms in other areas - is education one of them?
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Joe's description in chapter VII of his early life, courtship, and how he feels about Pip is pretty touching. He was lonely, and Pip's sister was lonely, and he found something attractive in her. Given how loving he is to Pip, I wonder if the helpless baby was part of the attraction.
Thanks for that information about the Hulks, JoanP.
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Two examples of Dickens original intent to make this a comic story:
The outrageous lies told by Pip about his visit to Lady Havisham’s, and the gaping
astonishment and excitement of his sister and ‘uncle’ over every ridiculous detail.
The description of Mr. Wopsle’s great-aunt’s ‘school’, the books, the teaching
methods of the old lady...when awake...and pulling some unlucky lads ears as the sign
that lessons were over.
JONATHAN, I can't really see Pip as living 'in the lap of luxury'. And I suspect it
is only the loving presence of Joe that prevents him from falling into worse than
ingratitude. What child can survive untouched by so much negativity about his character,
behavior and prospects?
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One more bit of trivia: a footnote in my book says that tar-water, a concoction of pine extract and fir extract, was a popular cure for almost everything, and that a pint would be an adult dose. So Mrs. Gargery was overdoing it, but not being any more abusive than giving a child castor oil would have been.
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There is a very interesting and informative article on Charles Dickens and Victorian Education, extracted from The Oxford Reader's Guide to Dickens, at http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/schools-and-education/victorian-education.html
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Thanks for that article, Marcie! It confirms what I suspected - that Dickens himself had been through such an "early education." He writes from what he knows, though injects humor in the telling, as Babi noted...
"Dickens's early years coincided with the state's growing sense of responsibility for the instruction of its citizens. Access to education varied tremendously, according to location, gender, and class. Those who could pay for their schooling had access to several types of institutions -- though quality was by no means guaranteed. Dickens's own experience is case in point: his education, which he acknowledged to have been "irregular" (letter of July 1838), and relatively slight, began in Chatham, where he was a pupil at a dame-school -- a deficient private establishment with an unqualified woman at its head, similar to the one run by Mr. Wopsle's great-aunt (GE 7). "
The article is also a good indication of Dickens' intent in describing the Wopsle schoolhouse:
"He stopped short of offering practical solutions to problems, and his work only reflects a selected range of issues and institutions. He never joined any of the reforming societies, and seemed more comfortable dealing with particular cases and large principles, rather than legislation and administration."
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'He stopped short of offering practical solutions to problems, and his work only reflects a selected range of issues and institutions. He never joined any of the reforming societies, and seemed more comfortable dealing with particular cases and large principles, rather than legislation and administration."
Isn't that interesting. It seems Dickens was a reporter rather than a reformer. He had little to offer in the way of solutions, but a great ability and talent to raise awareness of social problems. And getting to know his characters is most of the fun in reading him.
Take the convict for example. He does show an element of humanity, doesn't he? He shows his gratitude for the file and vittles that Pip brings him and makes certain that Pip will not suffer for his theft. Later he seems more gratified that his fellow convict will be brought to justice than concerned about his own welfare. We'll be hearing more about that, no doubt.
Babi, I didn't mean to suggest that Pip is living in the lap of luxury, only that, all in all, he is being raised in decent circumstances. It is Miss Havisham's place, suggesting a whole different world that leaves him bewildered and speechless to the point of lying. Seeing himself through other eyes leaves him unhappy with his upbringing.
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Jonathan, I agree with you about that convict. He doesn't seem to be a bad sort, but there must be some reason he is detained on the Hulk and it seems he's headed for an Australian penal colony... I'll put money on it that he was unfairly convicted of something - Injustice seems to be another favoite topic here.
Ah, Miss Havisham's...now we're getting into familiar territory - this woman, the centerpiece of Great Expectations. We are coming to the end of the first Volume and see Pip's family sending him off with high hopes that their lot will improve if she takes a liking to Pip. Pip is spruced up - dressed up in that horrid new suit and sent off with Uncle Pemblechook for a playdate with little Estella. Do you think Pip knows how to play - anything? It was Joe's uncle who brokered Pip's visit to the big house on the hill. I'm wondering why they thought that Pip would bring benefits to the family by playing with the little girl?
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JULY and AUGUST
GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexfirsteditioncover2.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatextitlepage.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexanniversarycover.jpg)
Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012
Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.
"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illchapter1.gif) | Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1
July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illXI.gif) |
Chapter VIII
1. How is Pip treated by "Uncle Pumblechook"?
2. What imagery about Satis House struck you?
3. What are Pip's first impressions of Estella? of Miss Havisham?
4. Near the end of Pip's visit, what are Pip's thoughts about Joe after Estella leaves him in the courtyard when she goes for food?
Chapter IX
1. Why does Pip elaborate his account of his visit to Satis House?
2. Why do Pumblechook and Mrs. Joe believe this far-fetched account?
3. How does the passage at the end of the chapter, addressed to the reader, connect to the imagery of Satis House?
Chapter X
1. How does the reader know where the bank notes came from?
2. What does the incident with the bank notes indicate about Joe?
Chapter XI
1. What is Miss Havisham's relationship with her relatives?
2. How would you describe her relatives?
3. What strange object does Pip see on the table?
Chapter XII
1. What kind of punishment does Pip expect for striking the young gentleman?
2. How does Miss Havisham respond to Pip later?
Chapter XIII
1. Why does Pip feel uncomfortable when he and Joe visit Satis House?
2. Who takes the money?
3. What are Pip's feeling about being a blacksmith?
Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1400/1400-h/1400-h.htm#2HCH0001); Dickens and Victorian Education (http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/schools-and-education/victorian-education.html) |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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'He stopped short of offering practical solutions to problems, and his work only reflects a selected range of issues and institutions. He never joined any of the reforming societies, and seemed more comfortable dealing with particular cases and large principles, rather than legislation and administration."
Jonathan, I was about to say something similar. Dickens was good at spotting problems and describing them, but doesn't seem to think in terms of the mechanics of practical solutions--just if men were better and behaved more kindly, things would be better. True, but not useful.
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I was given castor oil as a child. It was an infrequent thing, thankfully, and was
considered to be proper for particular problems. Nasty stuff; hated it.
No question about that, JONATHAN. Pip was content with his prospects in life until he
got a glimpse of how the gentry lived. Not to mention being totally infatuated with the contemptuous Estella.
I'm wondering why they thought that Pip would bring benefits to the family by playing with the little girl?
I think being 'brought to the notice' of the wealthy and powerful was generally considered a major step up for the 'lower classes', JOAN. And of course Uncle Pumblechook made the most of it by portraying himself as in the confidence of the mysterious Miss Havisham.
I'm trying to think of an appropriate term for Pumblechook. :-\ I'd bet you can
help me with that Jonathan. Or Jude. 'Fraud' doesn't quite seem to cover it.
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I get a somewhat favorable impression of shopkeeper Pumblechook. Salt of the earth type, almost. He's certainly instrumental now in helping Pip to a chance at improving himself. Sees to it that Pip will make a good impression. Imparts a little knowledge with his little arithmetic exercises. Perhaps he sees Pip as Miss Havisham's bookkeeper, eventually.
Not exactly a booming economy in the commercial area is it, with all the shopkeepers with nothing to do but watch each other? Except the watchmaker. Wait until he hears about Miss Havisham's clocks, all stopped at 8:40.
And so Pip is sent off with the solemn advice from Uncle Pumblechook:
'Boy, be for ever grateful to all friends, but especially unto them which brougt you up by hand.'
Not likely, judgeing by what we've heard from Pip about his harsh upbringing. The soap suds and all.
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How about "opportunist" Babi? I keep reminding myself that Uncle Pumblechook is Joe Gargery's uncle. Doesn't he seem more like the Mrs. Joe's kin in his wishes for advancement. Joe doesn't appear unhappy with his life, with his trade, whereas Mrs. G. never misses an opportunity to complain.
I've come across an interesting site containing the illustrations for each chapter which will appear in the heading for the rest of the discussion. It is something called Discovering Dickens - and along with the illustrations, there are some notes relevant to each chapter, which I'll also share with you. What's interesting is that this comprehensive site repeatedly states that Pip is 7 years old when the story begins. To me it makes a difference to think of him as a 7 year old rather than an adolescent - especially when we move into the next chapters when Pip goes up to the big house and meets the lovely Estella. Let's watch for an indication of her age in the next chapters.
Jonathan, I have two notes here that might be of interest to you - the first concerns Uncle P, whom you describe as the "salt of the earth" - though Babi may not agree with you. He did not arrive for Christmas dinner empty-handed, you might remember he brought not one, but two bottles of wine for the assembled. And now he has arranged for Pip's introduction into the big house on the hill. He doesn't forget his relatives, does he? I'm not sure how he arranged the play date, but obviously he did.
I'll go get the notes on Uncle P... and another note regarding what was meant at the time by being "brought up by hand." Apparently it was even more abusive than we had concluded...and Pip is lucky to be alive today.
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By hand, brought up: "Infants, in the absence of the mother, were either sent out to be fed by a wet-nurse (another lactating woman), or were spoon- or bottle-fed. Mrs. Joe's claim to neighborhood fame -- that she raised Pip "by hand" -- refers to the latter method. However, not only is the term used ironically (given Mrs. Joe's tendency to physically mistreat Pip), but its literal meaning also suggests abuse. Susan Thurin, in a recent Victorian Newsletter article, summarizes the history and application of the term "by hand" as follows:
She notes that artificial infant foods in the 19th century were un-nutritious, often being nothing better than pap (a thin mixture, for example flour and water) or gruel. Though cow's milk was often used as a substitute for breast-milk, "Cows were kept in filth, retailers skimmed and watered milk, and in the summer, bacteria spoiled it within twelve hours.
The Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act, which legislated sanitary conditions for the sale of milk, was not passed until 1878" (Thurin 29) -- over 70 years after Pip was born. In the 18th century, sixty-six percent of infants brought up "by hand" died, and methods had not greatly improved by the 19th century (Thurin 29). Pip, in other words, is lucky to be alive. Indeed, he and his sister have five siblings in the graveyard (Ch.1); and though these children may or may not have been raised by hand, they are an indication that the infant mortality rate in 19th century England was generally very high. Though spoon-feeding was especially likely to kill a baby, about 25% of all children born did not survive beyond the age of five (Mulhall 178).
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"The fact that "Uncle Pumblechook ... drove his own chaise-cart" (Ch. 4) indicates a certain level of prosperity not achieved by Pip's family at the forge. Driving his own cart would indicate that he had means sufficient to keep, or regular access to, a horse. Though the kind of cart denoted by "chaise-cart" varied, it usually referred to a light carriage with two or four wheels."
We already noted this - it seems that Uncle P is a tenant on Miss Havisham's land...not sure how this came about. We also know that Joe Gargery's father was also a blacksmith, and that Pip is expected to become his apprentice at the forge as well. His prospects for moving up in the world are not good.
Though they live a decent life on the forge, not hungry or needy, Mrs. Joe doesn't miss any opportunity to complain about her life and Joe's occupation, does she? I can't imagine what her life without Pip would be like - maybe just the same?
I found this note on blacksmiths' earnings at this time:
"Blacksmith's wife, perhaps if I warn't: Pip's sister, Mrs. Joe Gargery, traces her self-proclaimed status as "a slave with her apron never off" (Ch. 4) to her husband's profession.
Blacksmiths in the 19th century were working-class people, and though Joe is a highly skilled artisan, his wages would be modest. During the period of the novel (1812-1840), Joe Gargery would have made somewhere between £52 and £63 a year. (During the 19th century, an English pound was roughly equal to five American dollars [Philp 128]. Thus, translated into American currency, Joe would have made between about $260 and $315 a year). Industrious and temperate, Joe may have been slightly better circumstanced than many blacksmiths. However, the Gargerys could not be considered prosperous, though living comfortably according to their station"
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Tomorrow we are scheduled to move from the forge into the big house on the hill. I'd like to concentrate a bit more on Joe Gargery and his background today - sensing that this dear fellow will no longer be the center of Pip's world, once Pip is exposed to the bigger world in the coming chapters...
Pip is trying to learn as much as he can from Biddy, sensing that this is important. Did you see Joe pretending that he was reading with Pip - with the book upside down? Pip notices. He asks Joe if he'd been to school and Joe described his own childhood experience to Pip protesting all the while that his father was "good in his hart."
Do you really think Joe believes what he tells Pip? And does Pip believe him? He's a perceptive boy. Is he beginning to see chinks in his protector's armor?
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Babi
Mr. Pumblechook _An officous person i.e.(volunteers his services when they are neither asked for or needed).. He makes himself out to be better than he is.
Pip despises him and his constant math questions.
However no matter how awful he is personally, Dicken's uses him to move the action forward. Mr. P. brings Pip to Miss
Havisham. Therein lies a large part of the whole story.
This person ,Mr. P, is a shining example of how Dickens utilizes good and bad characters to weave a complex and amazing plot. The plot exists, because Dickens sees how the good and bad are the warp and woof of life.
Joan
You asked me to look for the humor. Well Pip's lies are humorous of course. Every great author that writes about little boys uses this ploy. From Mark Twain to Maurice Sendak the imaginative lies told by the young boys to get out of trouble are humorous.
Sometimes Dicken's remarks about the situation are wryly humorous :
"My sister, having so much to do, was going to Church vicariously; that is to say Joe and I were going."
"Cleanliness is next to Godliness, and some people do the same with their religion."
In fact the whole beginning of Chapt. four is wryly humorous. For a moment it takes us away from the tension created by the
frightening scenes with the prisoner on the marsh.
Again, Genius.
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I was most interested in Joe's description of his childhood. Consider that many children brought up in abusive homes either become abusive themselves or attach themselves to an abuser. The latter seems to be the case with Joe. His wife is verbally abusive and is not a stranger to using a pot or pan on Joe and a "tickler" rather too often on Pip. I am not sure what a tickler is, but could it be tickling as a form of punishment or a switch with frayed ends?
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Sorry, JONATHAN, but I can't see Pumblechook as 'salt of the earth'. To me, he is
using Pip as a possible entry point for himself. He was quite disappointed when he was sent away on delivering Pip, instead of being invited in.
"Opportunist" is appropriate, JOANP,..and polite. I had the same confusion about which side of the family he was related to. I finally decided he became Mrs. Joe's great chum and supporter simply because they are so alike in their views. He is certainly nothing like Joe.
Good critique on Pumblechook, JUDE. I can only nod in agreement.
Great information on 'brought up by hand', JOAN. I had no idea there was so much
ignorance as to an infant's needs. I can only assume it was the very poor who fed water and flour 'pap', because that was all they had. I was once told that during the depression, when money was very tight, the last few pennies would be spent on tea for mother, in the belief that would help her produce milk for me. People do what they can.
FRYBABE, I was wondering about that 'tickler', too. The only definition I could find
that might fit was "Tickler(noun)a prong used by coopers to extract bungs from casks." Can you imagine having something like that poked in your direction?
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In Chapter II, about a page in, Pip's narrative: "Tickler was a wax-ended piece of cane, worn smooth by collision with my tickled frame."
A footnote says "Schoolmasters placed wax on the end of the cane to keep it from splitting."
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Looking for humor in Great Expectations. Why don't we start with the tickler? I thought it a great euphemism for the rod, that essential part of a boys education. I was told by my own mother, occasionally, go, find me a switch. I went looking. My heart goes out to all mothers trying to make civilized beings out of their off-springs. Pip, it seems to me, comes close to being a little kvetcher. But then he is the brother of his tormentor. Both are, or become unhappy with their lot in life. Good question: at what point does Pip become unhappy with his prospects in life?
I may change my opinion about Uncle Pumblechook. Certainly he is trying to help himself by helping others. He is a tenant of Miss Havishams's, but has never met her face to face. She lives such a secluded life. Has for years. Now she is looking for a playmate. Will Pip get her clocks moving again?
Dickens was known to refer to his disputatious readers. LOL
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Pat, "collision with the tickled frame ... waxed to keep the cane end from splitting" ... those are terrible images of the tickler.
On that note we'll move into the next set of chapters this week (VIII through XIII). We can still continue to talk about anything in the first part of the book. In Chapter VIII Pip has gone with Pumblechook to stay overnight at his house, to be ready to visit Miss Hamisham's in the morning. How is Pip treated by Pumblechook?
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Well, then, Jude, I conclude the answer to the question concerning Freud's sense of humor would have to be that he must have had one, since we know he was an admirer of Dickens. He'd appreciate the same examples you have cited, with an understanding that Dickens was using humor to underscore abuse. That "Tickler" must have been used to more than "tickle" the naughty child - if "worn smooth by collision with his tickled frame."
I remembered that Uncle Pumble dropped Pip off at the Havisham mansion with little preparation. Pip is told only that he is going to play with someone within - and this bothers Pip, perhaps because he doesn't know how to play with other children. I reread that section - laughed at the way Pumble, feeling so self-important, when he asks if Miss Havisham wished to see him, was snubbed by Estella at the door. - But I laughed all the more at his preposterous admonition to Pip as he departed-
"Let your behaviour here be a credit unto them which brought you up by hand."
All the more amusing when we realize that Dickens' readers must have understood the abusive meaning of the term...certainly nothing to brag about, or reflect credit on those who brought up the lad in this way...
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I'm guessing that corporal punishment was accepted for children, and Dickens' readers wouldn't have had the reaction to the tickler that we do.
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It is the old "spare the rod, spoil the child" philosophy. Some people (and groups) believed (and some still do) that children should be brought up very strictly. They go a bit overboard, IMO.
So we have Mrs. Joe currying favor with Uncle Pumblechook, and P currying favor with Ms. Havisham. Each one trying to better their situation a little by doing so.
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When Dickens writes about the corporal punishment of children (most of the actions of the child undeserving of any punishment), he seems to be describing the corporal punishment as abuse. He didn't agree with it, although it was likely accepted by many people of the time. Joe seems not to agree with Pip being punished by Mrs. Joe using the tickler but we've learned, at the end of Chapter VII, that it's because his father abused his mother (and Joe) that Joe goes overboard in not confronting Mrs. Joe in any way.
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When Pip is told that he's to go to Miss Havisham's to play, he isn't told about any children there. He knows of Miss Havisham "as an immensely rich and grim lady who lived in a large and dismal house barricaded against robbers, and who led a life of seclusion." Pip seems quite at a loss to know "why on earth I was going to play at Miss Havisham's, and what on earth I was expected to play at."
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We never see Pip playing with other children so far, do we? We do see misbehaving boys at great aunt Wopsle's school room, can we count these as friends? Maybe Biddy, her granddaughter comes closest. Pip's only friend in the world seems to be Joe.
The gloomy breakfast at Uncle Pumblechook's - he was possessed of Pip's sister's idea that "a mortifying and penitential character ought to be imparted to his diet - Pip was given a piece of bread - a cup of milk, with such a quantity of warm water added - "it would have been more candid to have left the milk out altogether." (Meanwhile his uncle was eating bacon and a hot roll "in a gorging and gormandizing manner.")
I couldn't help but think of what we talked about earlier - the definition of what it meant to be "raised by hand."
"By hand, brought up: "Infants, in the absence of the mother, were either sent out to be fed by a wet-nurse (another lactating woman), or were spoon- or bottle-fed. Mrs. Joe's claim to neighborhood fame -- that she raised Pip "by hand" -- its literal meaning suggests abuse.
"artificial infant foods in the 19th century were un-nutritious, often being nothing better than pap (a thin mixture, for example flour and water) or gruel."
It's almost as if these people are trying to starve Pip - Why? To make him sorry he is alive and a burden? He must be hungry much of the day... Corporal punishment, probably worse than the Tickler for the growing boy.
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Freud and humor:
There are listed on Google 1,740,000 sites in relation to this topic. Most of them, it seems, are jokes relating to Freud or Psychoanalysis.
Freud's book,"The Joke and its Relation to the Unconcious" states:"Jokes happen when the conciious expressed thoughts that society would usually suppress or forbade are verbalized."
A very harsh superego suppresses humor altogether.There are some religions that suppress humor and see it as a sin. These groups often ban music, books (except the Bible or the Koran),movies, dancing ,cards, games etc.
However most people need to vent pent up psychic energy and laughter is the best way of doing this. Shakespeare's Falstaff would be an example of Freuds"Comic". He generates laughter by expressing previously repressed inhibitions.
I really don't know how deeply this subject interests people on this site. If more info is wanted I will gladly respond. Freud was born in 1856 so by the time he was reading books all of Dicken's works would have been available to him. Freud was an omnivorous reader and his liking and respect for Dickens work was well known.
Dickens"joke" of calling a paddling tool used to hurt children a "tickler" has many interpretations. Adults taking their frustrations out on children could say ,"I'm only tickling him."
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JoanP, yes while Pumblechook was gorging himself on breakfast, he took the advice of Mrs. Joe and gave Pip crumbs and water with a few drops of milk. It seems that Pip was doing penance in advance of doing anything bad.
Thanks, Jude, for the information about Freud.
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'It seems that Pip was doing penance in advance of doing anything bad.'
Or being made to do penance, Marcie? That's worth following up. Young Pip seems so prone to feelings of guilt and shame and eager to talk about them that I feel 'confessions' would have served very well in the title. He was not hard done-by as a child. Did he ever really feel the tickler? Like he felt the wedding ring when his sister was scrubbing him? That's what I understand by, 'raised by hand.' She was proud of her achievment.
Is there anything in Freud's writings which could be read as an analysis of a Dickens's character? I doubt it. I suspect the humor would get in the way. Or the eccentric English ways, in which the pride of the lowly is matched by the snobbery of the high and mighty, with poor Pip caught in the middle.
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I'm wondering if this is how most adults who were not well-to-do felt about children at this time, Jonathan? Burdensome...ungrateful. Especially those who had been foisted upon them - such as Pip. Someone must be held to blame - and punished - the obvious one, the most vulnerable, the child. Jude, I always thought of tickling as an intent to torture. Maybe torture is too strong a word for it, but...
It's been over 50 years since I read Great Expectations - the coming scenes inside Satis House are the ones that have stayed with me after all those years. Miss Havisham's character has since grown in my imagination as time goes by.
He lived near this this splendid house and watched it deteriorate into ruins, imagining its occupants. Miss Havisham - the product of his imagination.
"The illustration below, also from Langton's Charles Dickens and Rochester (1880), shows the house on which Dickens based Miss Havisham's mansion:(http://dickens.stanford.edu/dickens/images/Issue%203/satishouse.jpg)
"In Great Expectations, a brewery is attached to the house instead of a vineyard, and the house is called "Satis House" (its real name is "Restoration House"). According to Smith's History of Rochester (478-9), Restoration House was built in the late 16th century, and takes its name from a visit (of May 28-29, 1660) of the restored monarch, Charles II. It is still standing in Rochester today."
I cannot picture a BREWERY attached to this magnificent home, can you? I wonder if we will read more about it in coming chapters. I can imagine Pip's overwhelmed feelings as he is led to the gate of this intimidating home, and is met by the prettiest girl he's ever seen. I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out how old she is, or how old Pip is at this first meeting. What do you think? Has much time has gone by since Pip's encounter with the escaped convict?
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I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out how old she is, or how old Pip is at this first meeting. What do you think? Has much time has gone by since Pip's encounter with the escaped convict?
I'm having a lot of trouble with that too. Pip brings Joe his ill-written letter about a year after the convict incident, and it seems to be the same evening that he goes off with Pumblechook to spend the night and go to Miss Havisham's. But there are inconsistencies. Could someone who can't write any better than that do the running sums and the shillings and pence arithmetic that Pumblechook keeps asking him?
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Lucky Dickens is vague about the ages of Pip and Estelle. They don't quite fit or make sense. I don't think he was trying too hard to make them realistic in terms of age. Best to just go with the flow on this one.
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JoanK, I think your advice is good, "to go with the flow" regarding the ages of Pip and Estella. Trying to follow clues isn't very satisfactory. Whatever their actual ages, I think that we could say that Pip seems socially immature for his age and Estella seems precocious.
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JoanP, thank you for providing that history and the wonderful picture relating to the creation of "Satis House."
Re the brewery on the premises, in the Norton Critical edition that I'm reading, there is a footnote that says, "In Dickens' time and earlier, beer was drunk with nearly all meals--very often upper-class households brewed their own. Water, which had to be drawn from the well, was nothing so refreshing as it is today; tea and coffee were too expensive for most families. The beer Pip was served would be the thin brew given to children...."
I guess that in earlier times, the family of Miss Havisham brewed their own special beer.
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Jonathan--r 57 no I was in Forester Falls, Cobden area right on the Ottawa River at a friends cottage for the week/ weather was terrific just the right temperature to make being outdoors a delight.... hardly any insects to deter being outdoors
am now playing catchup madly my life has been very hectic since arriving home from Ottawa have been volunteering with a cat rescue group and they are horribly understaffed at present 3,--6 hour days last week...can't not do it as the cats are so wonderful...gotta love them presently about 60 cats in the house
now on with the book...can anyone enlighten me as to what online resource might have dicken's english old words (or I will mail our librarian today to get her ideas on this)....I love all the unfamiliar/sort of familiar words thru the book and am constantly stopping to try and find their origins and dicken's implication in their use
have all my sources on my blackberry tab so can easily move between the book/ our group/ dictionary/ (and want a 19th century dictionary to use as well)
well off to the cat house again today
all the best
Deb
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Deb, can you take in one more? There's a rumour that Miss Havisham's cat is looking for a new place. He's become jealous since Pip's arrival. Didn't your fellow-townsman, Stephen Leacock, also write a bio of Dickens. Have you read it? No doubt, now that I think about it, Leacock must have been influenced by Dickens's style.
About those inconsistencies in Pip's account of things. I think he has tipped us off several times that his account is based on memory and reflection, and he is writing it down years after the event, older and wiser. He is just as hard on himself as he is on his sister and Pumblechook.
I wondered if 'the brewery', now in a state of decay, was the source of the Havisham wealth. But perhaps these stately homes all had their 'breweries'.
Thanks Joan, for the great picture. Illustrations certainly enhanced the interest of Dickens's work.
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Next to the convict, my most vivid memory of the book is Miss Havisham. Goodness--she's just as dysfunctional as I remember, maybe even worse. I can't imagine freezing yourself in time like that, sitting all day wrapped in your own sour thoughts of revenge. And her wedding dress would never last the decades since she first put it on, even if she didn't wash it. Nor, in a house so full of mice and black beetles, would there be any cake left under the cobwebs on the epergne. I wonder how long ago she was jilted? Maybe we'll find out later.
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And seems to me I remember a virtual costume party where JoanP came as Miss havisham! I didn't appreciate it at the time, but now I do. But PLEASE don't try to eat that wedding cake!
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Deb, I've wished for an OED, an Old English Dictionary many times - but cannot help you. I understand what you are looking for, though. 60 cats! Do you have any of your own? I agree with Jonathan, Satis House could use a few cats to cut down on the mouse population in the large hall. PatH - that epergne was actually the wedding cake, I think! Impossible to make it out clearly.
I'm not sure if it was Miss Havisham's appearance in her yellowing wedding attire, the yellowing veil on her white hair or the hall with the cobwebs, and mice and decaying wedding feast, that stuck in my memory all these years, PatH. I was a bit surprised to see that Pip wasn't brought into the hall until the following visit. In memory, the two scenes were one.
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Dickens outdid himself in Miss Havisham's portrayal, didn't he? The single shoe she is wearing, the half packed trunk of dresses, the pile on the dressing table - watch, prayer book, gloves, jewels - everything indicating the moment frozen in time, when she was given the stunning news that the wedding ceremony would not occur - and her life came to a standstill at twenty minutes to nine. How does one get beyond such a stunning event? Better than Miss Havisham did, I'll bet - she literally lost her mind.
I've a friend whose daughter was left at the altar the day of her wedding. The fiance just couldn't go through with it - and disappeared. The lovely girl - in her forties now, has never married, will never marry she says. At least she's not still living at home. She has her own apartment, and a job...but still devastated by what happened over twenty years ago. She will not see any of her old friends and has no new ones. Sad. Her life was changed that one morning.
Do you think that Dickens will pick up her story and tell what happened to her young man? No, don't answer that...I was just thinking out loud! JoanK - you've quite a memory. Yes, that was me in the yellowing wedding gown at the costume party. ;) Miss Havisham stays with me.
I don't understand or remember how Estella came to live at Satis House with Miss Havisham. She seems so much older than Pip, doesn't she? If Dickens chooses not to let us know the exact ages of Pip and Estella, he does indicate they are the same age:
"Though she called me "boy" so often, and with a carelessness that was far from complimentary, she was about my own age. She seemed much older than I, of course, being a girl and beautiful and self-possessed..."
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ps Thanks, Jonathan, I'm going to keep that in mind...that the older, wiser Pip is writing of his early years - "his account is based on memory and reflection." Like you, I've noticed that from time to time...but have not really been aware of it throughout.
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...that the older, wiser Pip is writing of his early years - "his account is based on memory and reflection."
There is a notable example of that at the start of Chapter XI. Pip is waiting with the relatives of Miss Havisham who have come to pay respects on her birthday.
"Before I had been standing at the window five minutes, they somehow conveyed to me that they were all toadies and humbugs, but that each of them pretended not to know that the others were toadies and humbugs; because the admission that he or she did know it, would have made him or her out to be a toady and humbug."
Quite true, they promptly show themselves to be dreadful toadies, fencing with each other, but the Pip we see in the surrounding chapters wouldn't be able to see it clearly like that.
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Dickens does provide wonderful details to help us visualize the world and characters he is creating but it seems we can't look too closely at some of the details, such as the ages of the children. There, he must want to give us some impressions rather than facts.
Deb, in the introduction to the Norton Critical Edition of Great Expectations, the editor indicates that he's going to provide lots of footnotes, including to words and allusions that might not be familiar to many readers. He said that he asked his graduate students to read the book and underline anything they thought might not be understood by the reader. He says they underlined almost everything! So far, the book does provide lots of useful footnotes and explanations of terms. It's not a "Dickens dictionary" but might be helpful to you.
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Speaking of words, I didn't know what an epergne was so I looked it up in google. Not only did it give me the meaning,(An often ornate tiered centerpiece wrought of metal, bearing dishes, vases or candle holders) it also gave me rhymes of this word.
I found some of them quite amusing. Hope it gives you a giggle or at least a smile:
adjourn,astern,attorn,casern,discern,downturn,heartburn,Hepburn,intern, in turn,kick turn,Lucern,step turn, sunburn, U-turn,
windburn.
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Ahoy! There's an epergne astern!
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Jonathan--think it best Miss H's cat remains in that dysfunctional society--which greatly reminds me of Alice In Wonderland & the teaparty with the mad hatter--my house hold has 2 cats, one of them a ferile cat we got from a Texas RV park that had accidentally trapped her and couldn't figure what to do with her---she is calico and after 4 years still very timid only I can approach her...she keeps out of the way of our dog, who is amazingly respective of her anxiety & will not go near my husband--would love to adopt one cat from the rescue group which has a sweet personality but my husband has a differing opinion on this matter
Joan-it is amazing with all the interest in Dickens that there is not an easy to be found source of his words--will contact the library to day to see if they are able to find something of this nature
Marcia--will also look for a penguin edition; I had one when reading Bleak House and found it very interesting with all the additions it had
found it very interesting that Pip should overnight at Mr. Pumblechook's home before meeting Miss H. --then to go directly home the next day a distance of 4 miles it says
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Deb,since Pumblechook is a tenant on Miss Havisham's estate, I think he wants it to appear that he is the one who is responsible for bringing Pip to Satis House...maybe even be rewarded for his trouble. We've noticed that he didn't go out of his way to make Pip comfortable. I wasn't too surprised that he didn't wait around to escort Pip home...although it wouldn't have been too much for him in his chaise. He really doesn't care about Pip - it's what Pip can get for him that interests him.
Does anyone remember the stated reason for Pip's visit? Was it really just to play with Estella? I saw a description of the card game they played...will have to look for it.
If Pumblechook had waited for him, do you think Pip would have made up the whole business of the velvet coach, the flags, etc.? Why did he not want to share what he saw inside the estate with Joe and his sister when he got home, does anyone remember?
For the first time in his life Pip is feeling ashamed of his home and his people..."coarse and common." That's an awful awful feeling - Has everyone experienced this at one time or another? But why did he feel the need to protect the nutty inhabitants of Satis House from criticism? Do you think it didn't matter what they were like - they made him ashamed of his own people and he didn't want to convey that to the Gargerys'? Was he trying to protect his own family from his real feelings by diverting them with his wild lies? Funny that they believed him, wasn't it?
If it's the notes and footnotes you are after, I think you will want the Norton Critical edition that Marcie described - over the Penguin, Deb
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
JULY and AUGUST
GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexfirsteditioncover2.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatextitlepage.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexanniversarycover.jpg)
Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012
Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.
"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illXIV.gif) | Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1
July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illXVIII.gif) |
Chapter XIV
1. Why is Pip so discontented with his home and occupation?
2. Does Joe realize how Pip feels?
Chapter XV
1. Why does Pip really want to visit Miss Havisham?
2. What is a journeyman?
Chapter XVI
1. Pip felt guilty while reading George Bramwell, and now feels guilty about his sister. Why?
2. Who do you think attacked Mrs. Joe? What was their motive?
3. Who are the Bow Street Runners?
Chapter XVII
1. Biddy and Pip are now growing up. What are Pip's feelings toward Biddy? Hers toward him?
2. Does Pip understand his own feelings? Why is he in such a turmoil?
3. Dickens describes Pip's ambitions very vividly. Does this relate to Dickens' own life?
Chapter XVIII
1. If you don't already know, who do you think has given Pip so much money. Why did they do this? (If you do know, please keep the secret.)
2. What does the term "Great Expectations" actually mean?
Chapter XIX
1. How has the attitude of the townspeople changed towards Pip?
2. What attitude does Pip now take toward Joe and Biddy?
3. What does Pumblechook want from Pip?
4. Pip is off to start a new life. If you don't know, what do you think will become of him?
Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1400/1400-h/1400-h.htm#2HCH0001); Dickens and Victorian Education (http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/schools-and-education/victorian-education.html) |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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epergne... good ones Jude and PatH!
Pip in a recent chapter had gotten a deepened respect and affection for Joe (when Joe told Pip about his abusive father and why he allowed himself to be "raised by hand" also by Mrs. Joe). Now, as you bring up, JoanP, Pip is ashamed of Joe and his family.
He had a humiliating and somewhat frightening experience at Satis House. Why does he tell those extravagant stories about Satis House? Does it somehow agrandize him in the eyes of Mrs. Joe and Uncle P?
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'they underlined almost everyting' - those grad students helping the editor with the new edition of GE. Dickens would have been very pleased to hear that. He put so much meaning into everything he wrote. Sometimes even more than he intended.
Are we right in thinking he was at the age at which we first met him, when he first meets Miss Havisham? About seven or eight? It turns out to be the most memorable day of his life. The impression of Satis House and its inmates cause him to steer a new course in life. Life becomes a stormy sea. But has he been there, done that?
The house is in ruins. And so is the brewery, which hold s curious fascination for him:
'...the brewery beyond, stood open, empty and disused. The cold wind seemed to blow colder there, than outside the gate; and it made a shrill noise in howling in and out at the open sides of the brewery, like the noise of wind in the rigging of a ship at sea.'
How could he know that? It was thiry years later that he crossed the ocean to America with the wind blowing a gale.
The lies he tells about his new acquaintances, I believe, reflect the confusion in his mind.
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Well, I'll agree Pip comes home from Satis House, confused about his loyalty to his family, yet feeling Estella's criticism. I think he came home with the lies - protect Joe and his sister from his real feelings about them.
Pip suggested it, as it was the only game he knew. I found this description of the card game they played: Beggar my neighbor.
"Given the chief disparity between Pip and Estella -- one of social class -- the name and nature of this card game tends to reinforce the socio-economic significance of their encounter.
The game is played between two players, with a full deck; the object is to accumulate all the cards. The deck is divided between the two players, and the game commences when the first player plays a card, face up. If the card is a number-card (2-10), the other player plays a card. If, however, the card played is a court-card (jack, queen, king, or ace), the other player has to play a certain number of cards (if a jack was played by the first player, the second player must play one card; if a queen was played, two cards must be played; if a king, three cards; if an ace, four cards). If the cards thus played in accordance with the appearance of a court-card are number cards (2-10), player 1 (who played the court card) takes the trick and adds it to the bottom of his/her part of the deck. If, however, player 2 plays a court card in the process of furnishing the number of cards required, the tables turn, and player 1 has to issue the appropriate number of cards. The game goes on in this fashion until one of the players has possession of the whole deck (Collins, "...Beggar Your Neighbor").
More information than you needed? The important thing here - Estella beat Pip at his own game. More importantly, she finds something that emphasizes their class difference -
"He calls the knaves, Jacks, this boy." - Estella was going to find anything that would make him aware of the class difference his hands, his boots.
I don't know, I call them Jacks, too. What does that say about my social standing?
Jonathan, I think of the two of them as about 8 years old too - though Dickens isn't clear about that. If this is Pip looking back at this first visit, he might not have been too clear about his age either. She does seem older but Pip says she is his age... just a little girl -who might be wrong about the whole "knave" business... But Pip believes everything she says about him.
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I think Pip was totally overwhelmed by his first visit. The whole setup was so strange. On top of that, he is humiliated, made to feel that everything about himself is coarse and despicable, made to feel ashamed of his home. He doesn't know what to make of it, needs time to process it all, certainly doesn't want to share his feelings with unsympathetic adults. But he isn't given this time, he's badgered into telling about it. It's a defensive mechanism to clam up about what really happened and to lie.
I'm surprised that he's believed, though. Miss Havisham kept to herself, but you would think that Pumblechook, a townsman, would have some inkling of how she really lived.
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Interesting point, Jonathan, about Pip's metaphors..
You say: "the brewery beyond, stood open, empty and disused. The cold wind seemed to blow colder there, than outside the gate; and it made a shrill noise in howling in and out at the open sides of the brewery, like the noise of wind in the rigging of a ship at sea.'
How could he know that? It was thiry years later that he crossed the ocean to America with the wind blowing a gale."
JoanP, what you say about the stories that Pip told about Satis House makes sense: "I think he came home with the lies - protect Joe and his sister from his real feelings about them."
What you say, PatH, makes sense too: "I think Pip was totally overwhelmed by his first visit. The whole setup was so strange. On top of that, he is humiliated, made to feel that everything about himself is coarse and despicable, made to feel ashamed of his home. He doesn't know what to make of it, needs time to process it all, certainly doesn't want to share his feelings with unsympathetic adults. But he isn't given this time, he's badgered into telling about it. It's a defensive mechanism to clam up about what really happened and to lie."
It's believable to me that Pumblechook has never stepped in the house and has never seen Miss Havisham.
Dickens description of Miss Havisham is out of a fairy tale. It's not very believable that she would wear the wedding clothes day and night, including the one shoe, and that there would be much material left.
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I liked the description of Pumblechook's business with the seed drawers and the corduroy pants. So, he was a seed and feed man, important to a farming community and to estate gardens. Pip did mention flower seeds. Pumblechook, while aspiring to a higher level of society, was not unused to physical labor. I expect he took Mrs. Joe's advice on feeding Pip because he was unused to dealing with children and their needs - not to mention it was less costly.
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Fry - I enjoyed Dickens' adjectives describing Pumblechooks appearance and shop - "peppercorny," "farinaceous"...and the corduroy pants - they provide another contrast to the world Pip is about to enter. I think the supreme irony is the devastation and squalor in which the Havishams are living compared with the neat and ordered world Pip comes from.
Marcie, Estella is also portrayed as a fairy tale princess too, isn't she - though a mean-spirited one? She enters the room "like a star" - she is compared to the jewels on Miss Havisham's dressing table. The inhabitants of Satis House are unlike anyone from Pip's world. You can't really blame him from being confused and at a loss trying to explain what the place was like - He really doesn't want to remember that Estella actually made him cry. It isn't any wonder that his imagination kicked in and saved him from that memory.
Even though he was believed by everyone, he has to tell Joe how miserable he was, and why. A sign of his character that Pip's conscience makes him confess to Joe, wasn't it? No velvet coach, no dogs, not even a puppy. Joe is disappointed at that last - but his character comes through as he counsels Pip..."Lies is lies." "Not the way to get out of being common." Will Pip remember the advice he gets from this gentle teacher?
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'That was a memorable day to me, for it made great changes in me.' Pip, at the end of chapter 9. Then he wonders if his reader hasn't had such a day, when the course of their life was changed for better or worse. Recall that at the beginning of the chapter he feels that his readers too, must have had, when young, moments when they had a 'dread of not being understood.' That was Pip's way of explaining the lies about the games at Miss Havisham.
Imagine spending an hour or two with a recluse such as Miss H. Imagine being Miss Havisham! In a state of permanent trauma. Will we eventually meet the man who left her desolate at the wedding altar?
It's becoming clear that the young Pip is comparing life styles. He's certainly giving the reader the truth about his feelings. Such exposure at such a young age. Such sensitivity to a variety of influences. With no hesitation about his reactions, or expressing his opinions about others. Except for Miss Havisham. He doesn't know what to make of her or express opinions, like he does, say, about Uncle Pumblechook:
That ass Pumblechook...a spectacle of imbecility...that detested seedsman...that fearful Impostor , Pumblechook...that basest of swindlers, Pumblechook...that diabolical corn-chandler...that abject hypocrite (with) his patronizing laugh.
One has to laugh at Pip's frankness, and his ability to express himself, when he chooses. No misunderstanding him.
Who will it be in the end, who has the greatest influence on him? Estella? Or Joe? He feels compelled to choose.
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I'm a little surprised at the suddenness and completeness of Pip's change. No time spent thinking it over, trying to make sense of what he's seen. It's the sneering scorn of the lovely Estella that did it. She's already well trained for what Miss Havisham wants her to be.
Yes, Jonathan, I too wonder if we'll meet the man who jilted Miss. H. Judging from her unhealthy reaction, he maybe did well to run for his life.
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Thank you Joan for your input yesterday-must go over again a few sections, I can see.....will look for a Norton edition....am presently reading it on my BlackBerry using gutenberg
Deb
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Warning: the Norton is more expensive than most paperbacks, and the print is small. The paper is really nice, though.
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"'That was a memorable day to me, for it made great changes in me."
Jonathan, now it is really clear that Pip is looking back to his younger self...with understanding mixed with regret. I'm reminded of Dickens early life as I read this...and sense that he is drawing from his own experience as he writes.
Though he heaps scorn and criticism on the adults who brought him up - with a few exceptions - he also criticizes the young boy as well. But youth and inexperience can be excused, he seems to be saying.
Pip makes false assumptions based on his limited understanding of the world, which he sees as a fairyland sort of place, filled with all sorts of magical possibilities. Dickens is hinting that Miss Havisham is raising this young girl simpy to get revenge on the young man who jilted her. If this is the case, then Pip had better look out.
But looking at this situation with another lens, what might the reality be? For some reason, Miss H has taken the young girl to raise. Does anyone remember how this happened? Is she
a relative? Who would put a young child in the care of this obviously disturbed woman?
Miss Havisham does have other relatives - Pip meets them at his second visit. They come and go, but surely they will play a part in the story; Dickens rarely expends effort on his characters for a cameo appearance only... Do you remember how they are related? Who is Camilla? Related? She seems quite familiar, though she does refer to her as Miss Havisham. And Tom, who is he? Whose funeral are they referring to? Maybe we are supposed to be as confused as Pip was as he listened to their conversation?
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Before we started the book I found a sight that listed all the characters and their relations to each other.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great-Expectations.)
There is a list of Miss Havisham and her family (This is a six page printout).
Much of the material will give away the plot in future sections.
However Miss Havisham's relatives are listed as follows:
Cousin Raymond, an aging relative who is only interested in her money.Heis married to Camilla.
Georgiana, an aging relative who is interested in her money. She is one of many who hang around Miss H. for her wealth.
Sarah Pocket, "a dry, brown corrugated old woman, with a small face that might have been made out of walnut shells, and a large mouth like a cat's without the whiskers. Another relative interested only in the money.
Mathew Pocket, a cousin of Miss H. he is the patriarch of the Pockets but he is not greedy for her wealth. He has nine children, two nurses, a housekeeper, a cook and a pretty but useless wife named Belinda.He tutors young gentlemen who live on his estate.
Herbert Pocket, Son of Mathew and a presumed heir. Pip first meets him as a "pale young gentleman", who challenges Pip to a fight at miss H.s house when they are both children.
I have not written about Estella and her heritage in order not to give the story away.
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Thanks for the relative list, Jude, it will help. Goodness, all the ones we have met so far are nasty pieces of work. Perhaps back then, when women were supposed to be so delicate, Camilla's fainting and taking to her bed out of worry for Miss Havisham, might be faintly convincing, but somehow I doubt it.
Thanks also for the warning about spoilers.
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Wonderful question, Joan. Where is the reality in all this? With the Pockets discussing a funeral past and waiting for another - Miss Havisham's. And Miss Havisham obliging them by making the table with her wedding cake her bier when she dies, when they will all come together for a piece of her. And Dickens makes a waxwork tableau out of these characters. But then he was a great fan of Madam Tussaud's. A fellow artist, who set up shop just around the corner in London.
It took Pip less than five minutes, he tells us, to recognize the Pockets as 'toadies and humbugs'. And we can rely on his judgements. Just look at the value he puts on the kiss that Stella wants from him. A kiss from a common boy. Which he is, compared to the 'pale young gentleman,' whom he bests in a fight. Was it a fight between gentleman and commoner, or two boys envious of each other. Each wanting to learn from the other. Your right, Joan. What a fairy tale.
What's in a kiss?! And who is this guy with the scented hands? Another 'gentleman' who always finds himself in the wrong company?
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I'd like to know who the man in the pub with Joe was, the one who gave Pip a shilling wrapped in two one-pound notes. I am surprised that Mrs. Joe didn't confiscate the shilling as well as the notes. I was pleased but surprised that she wanted to give the notes back. Maybe there will be more on this later.
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And Fry, did you see what Sister Joe did with that money after attempting to give it back to the man? I was really surprised she didn't snap it up for herself -
she "sealed them up on a piece of paper, and put them under some dried rose-leaves in an ornamental tea pot on the top of a press in the state parlour. There they remained, as a nightmare to me, many and many a night and day."
The man had to be an acquaintance of Pip's convict, don't you think? He must have been acting on his instructions to find Pip and reward him for his generosity... I think someone will lift that teapot and find the notes in a later chapter...
Oh Jude, I hope you didn't come across too much of a spoiler in an attempt to identify Miss Havisham's visitors... It's good to know that Dickens will be providing Estella's background and how she came to live with Miss Havisham - in future chapters. For the sacrifice you made, we all thank you!
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Jonathan - you and Dickens have paired up to involve us in the humor of the morbid scene! I believe you are on his exact wavelength! I can see the two of you chuckling all through this scene.
"They somehow conveyed to me that they were all toadies and humbugs, but that each of them pretended not to know that the others were toadies and humbugs: because the admission that he or she did know it, would have made him or her out to be a toady and humbug."
Delicious! Such insight into human nature! Don't you think this is knowledge that occurs to Pip when he's older, Jonathan?
...I'm wondering if it is Estella who will one day inherit Miss Havisham's great wealth - is she being prepared to steel herself from the many suitors she will have...is she in training to break their hearts, do you suppose? Will she ever be able to trust or is Miss Havisham training a cold heart? Or do you believe that Miss Havisham is preparing the girl to break boys' hearts simply to avenge her own broken heart?
The strange boy - the Pockets' boy, is a puzzle, isn'[t he? His heart clearly isn't in the fight - is he following parents' orders? He's trying his best to fight for Estella's attention, yet it is Pip who earns the kiss...
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What helpful insights here. Jonathan, I agree with JoanP that you have caught onto the humor in Dickens. His humor seems to put his more solemn thoughts into a greater perspective.
It does seem that Miss Havisham is preparing Estella to break boy's/men's hearts. Miss Havisham must have felt herself to be cruelly treated and seems to have decided that all men must suffer at the hand of Estella. If Estella is around 8 years old and Miss Havisham adopted her as an infant, that's only around 8 years at most that she has enacted the plan to use Estella to get back at "man" kind. I guess we may not find out why she is using Estella rather than becoming a femme fatale herself and ensnaring men after she was left by her husband-to-be, 30 years earlier.
Jude, thank you for the description of the relatives and the spoiler warning.
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And Fry, did you see what Sister Joe did with that money after attempting to give it back to the man? I was really surprised she didn't snap it up for herself -
Yes, JoanP, is almost wrote that, but then thought perhaps I would be too hard on her. The temptation certainly would be there to rationalize keeping the money as a kind of compensation for taking Pip in to raise "by hand". Which brings up a question rumbling around in the back of my mind. Mrs. Joe seems a very strict (and perhaps straightlaced?) person. Was this part of her religious or home upbringing? Would Pip have been brought up in a similar environment had their parents lived?
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Miss Sarah Pocket, whom I now saw to be a little dry, brown, corrugated old woman, with a small face that might have been made of walnut-shells....
Camilla, whose fermenting feelings appeared to rise from her legs to her bosom....
I enjoy Dicken's imaginative use of words like corrugated & fermenting & how he equates them with human description etc.--wonder if this type of description was outside of the usual for his time??
Deb
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I think Mrs. Joe didn't keep the 2£ for herself because she's honest. The stranger gave the shilling to Pip as a present, loudly saying he was doing so, but everyone assumed he didn't mean to give him the bills, that he just grabbed some paper from his pocket to wrap the shilling in, and would want them back. Seems an unlikely mistake to me.
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The whole incident in the pub is curious. When no one but Pip is looking, the stranger stirs his drink with a file, looking straight at Pip. He's either giving Pip a hint, or testing him to find out if he is really the boy who gave the file.
Pip immediately assumes this is the same file he stole for the convict. Can he really recognize such a simple tool, or is this guilty conscience? Could it really be possible for the stranger to have it? Surely it would have either been discarded after being used to cut the chains, or taken from the convict when he was recaptured.
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Pat, is it possible the convict hid the file, intending to get it back to Pip somehow? This would have to be a very honest criminal making an attempt to repay Pip for helping him out. We never did hear the whole story about him - remember he was trying to capture another escapee...he could have gotten away, except he was caught as he cornered the second convict and called for help. How do you remember that?
I can see Mrs. Joe keeping the money - as Fry sees it - in compensation for all those years she had to put up with raising Pip. Didn't she keep the little money he earned doing odd jobs for the neighbors? I don't think we've heard the last of that money now resting under the teapot - or the file, for that matter...
Dickens had a number of close friends, notable authors of the time, Deb - perhaps we can find an answer to your question in their work. William Thackery comes to mind - his Vanity Fair...
Please continue to share those examples of Dickens' powers of description!
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I am so far behind! Lost our computer a week ago, along with everything on it, incl. my discussion notes. We now have a rebuilt Dell that is very different and will take some getting used
to.
So many posts, of course. I do want to thank you, MARCIE, for pointing out that Joe's failure
to stand up to Mrs. Joe could be because he saw his mother abused by his father. That is a
point that bothered me, but I can see how this might explain Joe's submission to his wife.
JOAN, you were asking why anyone would put a child into the hands of a disordered woman
like Miss Havisham. This was apparently not long after the disastrous event, and her madness
may not have been that apparent. Irregardless of that, you have an orphan child with no hope
of a decent life in those times, and a chance at a very good life under the protection of a wealthy
woman. I would definitely go for the 'chance' vs the 'no hope'.
There are so many different views of Pip's wild description of what he had seen at Miss Havisham's. To me it was pure humor, bordering on slapstick. I can just see Mrs. Joe and
Pumblechook agape with excitement and wonder, exclaiming over it all, and believing every
word of it.
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Babi...it is so good to see you making the rounds after a week's absence! Your post on Pip's invention of what went on at Satis House reminds me of his rich imagination all over again. The swords and flags...the velvet coach. I remember underlining one particular word that got my attention - did you notice it too? -
"Out of a cupboard I saw pistols in it and jam - and pills."
Did mention of pills get your attention? I wonder what he was thinking of when he mentioned pills.
rHe was really carried away, but confessed to Joe shortly after that he made it all up. It's a good thing because Miss Havisham wants Joe to come to Satis House on the next visit. He'd have seen for himself that none of it was true... I'm forgetting now why she needed Joe there when she said goodbye to Pip. Do you remember?
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Frybabe, that's a good observation and question about Mrs. Joe's upbringing. You say, "Mrs. Joe seems a very strict (and perhaps straightlaced?) person. Was this part of her religious or home upbringing? Would Pip have been brought up in a similar environment had their parents lived? " I hadn't thought of that. Did Pip's sister turn out very much like their mother?
Deb, I love those metaphors you cite. I appreciate your bringing them here so I can pay closer attention to them. Dickens uses so many colorful expressions that I don't pay enough attention to them.
PatH, I agree that the appearance of the file in the pub is somewhat farfetched but it certainly does add to the mysteries in this section. The file serves to remind us of the convict in Pip's past and, you are likely right, JoanP, that it probably foreshadows some events in the future.
Babi, I'm glad you're back with us. That's a great point -- Pip's wild description and the people for whom we have the least sympathy so far (Mrs. Joe and Uncle P) believing it all-- makes for a great comic interlude. I can just see Dickens acting it all out. I'm sure that Dickens was on the lookout for places where he could use his skill at farce to provide, as you say, "slapstick" entertainment to his readers.
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Joan, I think that Miss Havisham invites Joe and Pip to her house to turn Pip over to Joe as a blacksmith apprentice. It seems to be a way of telling Pip that he's to remain a poor working boy; he won't participate in the upper class life that Miss H and Estella lead (although they appear to me to lead an awful life in that decrepit mansion).
I'm not sure why Pip would mention pills. I'm wondering if a prevalent use of pills occurred during Victorian times. I searched a bit and didn't exactly find an answer to my question but found a BBC show on the Victorian Pharmacy!! See http://www.rpharms.com/history-of-pharmacy/victorian-pharmacy.asp and the interesting article linked from the right column of that page. The site for Season 1 of the program is at http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00t3zhy
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(although they appear to me to lead an awful life in that decrepit mansion).
I agree; it's hard to believe anyone would envy them.
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It's time to tackle a new chunk. There are new questions at the top of this page. We can still talk about the old sections too.
A lot happens in this section, twists and turns in the lives of the characters.
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Thanks for that link, Marcie...it got me started in a consideration of what sort of pills were available at the time...which ones Pip may have seen at home, which made it into the imaginary cupboard at Satis House. From that link I found myself in the middle of a larger issue that may have been affecting Dickens at the time he was writing Great Expectations.
Quackery and Dickens (http://thequackdoctor.com/index.php/guest-post-dickens-holloway-and-product-placement/) -
"He was a shrewd amusing man, this … “Professor,” and was very daring. He once enclosed a cheque for a thousand pounds in a letter to Charles Dickens, which he placed at Dickens’s disposal, on condition that one line of complimentary reference to Holloway’s cures should appear in the book which Dickens was then publishing in monthly numbers. The bearer waited for an answer. “What did you do?” I asked Dickens. “Do!” he cried; “I put the cheque back into the letter and sent it down to the messenger, saying that was all the answer I had to send!”
When you consider that Dickens not only refused to mention this "cure" in his book, but made the pills object of ridicule by placing them in Pip's far-fetched imaginary lies in the cupboard in Satis House...all the more amusing, I thought.
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Thanks for the nudge into the next chapters, Path - Pip's future is opening up for him - but he isn't too happy about it, is he? Just what was he expecting?
Did you wonder why Miss Havisham decided to abruptly dismiss him from Satis House? It seemed that she was beginning to like him and their walks around the house and grounds. Or was that simply how Pip saw it? Would it be too much of a stretch to consider it a kind act on her part - providing for Pip's future by giving the family the means to start Pip's apprenticeship? This wasn't a casual decision for a family to make. Money was involved - appearance before a court, oaths sworn...
Here's an interesting link on what was involved with the Indentures:
Apprenticeship in Victorian England (http://greatexpecations.wiki.manheimcentral.org/Apprenticeship+in+Victorian+England)
"In Great Expectations, Pip becomes an apprentice to Joe, the blacksmith. Miss Havisham generously paid Joe 25 pounds (several hundred dollars) so that he could afford to indenture Pip. The price to indenture your son to a master tradesmen is usually very expensive, because the master is expected to provide room and board for the child for seven years."
How old do you see Pip at this time? Everyone is ecstatic at Miss Havisham's generosity. Everyone but Pip, that is... What exactly was he expecting from her?
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Pip's connection with Satis house made him, for a while, a person of great interest to everyone,
and the hope of benefits to his family. He must have felt a little proud of all this, awed to be
seeing all those grand things. He was polite and helpful, and must have at least hoped they
liked him, too. It would be very stressful, after all this, to be dismissed so casually and carelessly. What did Pip expect? He's a child, so I would suppose he thought his elders were
correct and that he would continue to be 'attached', as it were, to Satis House, and his life would
be bettered.
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Would it be a stretch to imagine that Miss havisham got rid of Pip because Estella was at an age where she might have started to like him, instead of breaking his heart? that wouldn't do at all!
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Miss Havisham really did break his heart by taking him out of his environment, making him dissatisfied with it, then throwing him back in. It probably wouldn't have occured to Dickens or his readers to wonder why Pip is attracted to this (to us miserable) way of life. Of course, being "higher class" is better. Pip yearns for "better" things but, except for Estella, we aren't told what these better things are.
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Yes, it's all about 'how Pip saw it'. And Pip remembers only that one day he had become too tall, literally, for Miss Havisham and so she sent him home. With a generous gift. To learn the blacksmithing trade. Pip cared nothing for her. By then it was too late. His life had been forever changed by Estella.
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This is hats. I have my book. Now I have to catch up along the way. Thank you for the invitation, Marcie. Hello to all discussion leaders and readers.
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Hi, hats. It's great to see you here. I hope you enjoy the book.
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What a great way to start the week! Good morning, hats! I'm sure you will catch up with us in no time. Can you tell us which edition you will be reading? Some are more heavily footnoted than others. If there is something that puzzles you, you have many friends here who will gladly lend a hand as you catch up. We are finishing up Volume I this week - as Pip gets on with his future of great expectations. We will be interested in your observations on the early chapters too. You have the knack of noticing things that others don't. Welcome, hats! Look forward to hearing from you - even before you catch up.
Babi - "he thought he would continue to be 'attached', as it were, to Satis House" - I think you're right - and even though Miss Havisham was quite generous with him, he felt dismissed when his services were no longer needed at the house. Do you think he thought he could continue on there indefinitely as Miss Havisham's companion, even after Estella had left for school? I don't think he ever entertained the idea that Miss Havisham would educate him, do you?
As for why Miss Havisham "dismissed" him, I think you might be right, JoanK - I don't know how many months went by visiting the house, or how old they are now, but Estella did show some signs of "liking" Pip - maybe she even saw her kiss him! Jonathan...I didn't remember that Pip looking back, remembered that "he was getting too tall" for Miss Havisham - this seems to indicate that he is noticably a growing boy - which confirms her reason for dismissing him.
Poor Pip - you can feel his misery, can't you? His unhappiness with his own family...and Biddy. What if he'd never gone to Miss Havisham's and laid eyes on Estella. Biddy would have been a perfect mate for him, don't you think? That's an interesting question, Pat. Does Joe notice Pip's unhappiness at the forge?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
JULY and AUGUST
GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexfirsteditioncover2.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatextitlepage.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexanniversarycover.jpg)
Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012
Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.
"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illXIV.gif) | Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1
July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illXVIII.gif) |
Chapter XIV
1. Why is Pip so discontented with his home and occupation?
2. Does Joe realize how Pip feels?
Chapter XV
1. Why does Pip really want to visit Miss Havisham?
2. What is a journeyman?
Chapter XVI
1. Pip felt guilty while reading George Bramwell, and now feels guilty about his sister. Why?
2. Who do you think attacked Mrs. Joe? What was their motive?
3. Who are the Bow Street Runners?
Chapter XVII
1. Biddy and Pip are now growing up. What are Pip's feelings toward Biddy? Hers toward him?
2. Does Pip understand his own feelings? Why is he in such a turmoil?
3. Dickens describes Pip's ambitions very vividly. Does this relate to Dickens' own life?
Chapter XVIII
1. If you don't already know, who do you think has given Pip so much money. Why did they do this? (If you do know, please keep the secret.)
2. What does the term "Great Expectations" actually mean?
Chapter XIX
1. How has the attitude of the townspeople changed towards Pip?
2. What attitude does Pip now take toward Joe and Biddy?
3. What does Pumblechook want from Pip?
4. Pip is off to start a new life. If you don't know, what do you think will become of him?
Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1400/1400-h/1400-h.htm#2HCH0001); Dickens and Victorian Education (http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/schools-and-education/victorian-education.html) |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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I also agree, JOANK. Pip no longer servies Miss Havisham's purpose,
which is to train Estella to manipulate, despise and 'punish' men. Can't
have her becoming fond of Pip.
A journeyman is someone who has finished their apprenticeship and
knows the trade, but is not yet a master. To be a master the journeyman
had to complete a 'masterpiece' and submit it to his trade guild. If they
approved it, he beame a 'master' craftsman.
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It's wonderful to hear from you, hats. Please join in, and have some fun with this book.
Why did Miss Havisham send Pip away to serve an apprenticeship in blacksmithing? Who can tell what is going on in that head of hers. Living in the past and planning the future...of others. Perhaps she feels herself losing control in her manipulations of these two children.
Perhaps Pip has even grown fond of her after a fashion. So, it must have been a sudden surprise, 'when, one day, Miss Havisham stopped short as she and I were walking, she leaning on my shoulder; she said with some displeasure; You are growing tall, Pip! (near end of chapter 12)
Every visit to Satis House was made with the hope of meeting Estella. Right? To win her respect he wants to better himself. Then, back in the blacksmith's shop, helping Joe, he sees only Estella's face in the fire, with her pretty hair fluttering in the wind and her eyes scorning me...after that, when we went in to supper, the place and the meal would have a more homely look than ever, and I would feel more ashamed of home than ever, in my own ungracious breast. (end, chapter 14
It's interesting to compare that feeling with the feelings expressed by his sister, in the last paragraph of Chapter 12, when she thinks of herself as the door-mat under our feet, and goes into a heart-breaking Rampage.
Isn't Joe the real gentleman in all this?
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In Chapter XIX there are many examples of humor. I marked many in a short few pages:
Pip:"What lay heaviest on my mind, was the consideration that six days intervened between me and the day of departure; for, I could not divest myself of a misgiving that something might happen to London in the meanwhile, and that when I got there, it would be either greatly deteriorated or clear gone.'
Pip:"As I passed the church I felt.....A sublime compassion for the poor creatures who were destined to go there Sunday after Sunday, all their lives through........I promised myself that I would do something for them......and formed a plan for bestowing a dinner of roast beef,and plum pudding, a pint of ale , and a gallon of condescension, upon everyone in the village."
Pip: "No moreof these grazing cattle-though they seemed, in their dull manner, to wear a more respectful air now, and to face round, in orderthat they might stare as long as possible at the possessor of such great expectations."
Pip:"So Mr. Trabb measured and calculated me, in the parlour, as if I were an estate and he the finest surveyor, and gave
himself such a world of troublethat I felt that no suit of clothes could possibly remunerate him for his pains."
I could go on but I will leave it to others to continue this list if they are so inclined.
Tomorrow I am having an eye operation so I don't know when I will be back on line again. I hope all goes well and it will be sooner rather than later.
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Good luck, Jude, hope all goes well with your surgery.
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"In Great Expectations, Pip becomes an apprentice to Joe, the blacksmith. Miss Havisham generously paid Joe 25 pounds (several hundred dollars) so that he could afford to indenture Pip. The price to indenture your son to a master tradesmen is usually very expensive, because the master is expected to provide room and board for the child for seven years."
A journeyman is someone who has finished their apprenticeship and
knows the trade, but is not yet a master. To be a master the journeyman
had to complete a 'masterpiece' and submit it to his trade guild. If they
approved it, he beame a 'master' craftsman.
I was trying to work out the details of Joe's business. Miss Havisham gets out of Joe that he always intended taking Pip as his apprentice, and didn't expect a premium for doing so. (He couldn't, of course, there was no money anywhere in the family except Joe's earnings.) She then gives him a premium of 25 pounds, which she says Pip has earned, but this is an unexpected bonus.
Joe also employs a journeyman, Orlick, paying him wages. We haven't seen any trace of Orlick up to now, but he's been around for a while, since Pip describes the stories Orlick told to scare him when he was small. So it's got to be a healthy business to support a family plus a single man.
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Hey, HATS, glad to see you.
JUDE: hope all goes well. Keep us posted.
" he became a 'master' craftsman". So Joe must already have been a master craftsman. And look how humble he is about his work: the forgery couldn't possibly make anything that was good enough for a present for Miss Havisham. Is this Joe, having been told all these years how worthless he is by his wife, and believing it? Now Pip is believing it too. How sad!
And is Dickens himself entirely free of believing it. Even while he holds Joe up as an example of solid worth, isn't he also looking down on him by making him so pitiable.
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"Even while he holds Joe up as an example of solid worth, isn't he also looking down on him by making him so pitiable?"
I've been thinking about your comment, JoanK - I don't think Dickens meant to make Joe an object of the reader's scorn - but rather to show Pip's adolescent callowness. But you ask an interesting question and I'm wondering how Dickens' readers at that time looked upon Joe. Does he represent all that is holding them back from advancement? Does he make them feel dissatisfied with their own state? I'll bet many of them can identify with Orlick's position.
Imagine you are Orlick...working at the forge all these years as Joe's assistant - He must be a journeyman by now. I think he's 25 at this time - with not much of a future, but at least he has this job. Now it appears that Pip will one day take his place and where will that leave Orlick?
"To be a master the journeyman had to complete a 'masterpiece' and submit it to his trade guild."
Somehow, I can't see Orlick working on a masterpiece, can you, Babi? A journeyman can be replaced, no?
I was completely surprised to learn that Mrs. Joe survived the attack...I thought she died immediately. Maybe that was the film version. I agree, Jonathan, Joe comes off as a real gentleman - throughout his wife's rampage and then after, as he cares for her when she becomes incapacitated.
Does Pip suspect that Orlick was his sister's attacker? Wouldn't it be near impossible to continue to work in the forge with him? Wouldn't it be even more difficult to leave Joe in the forge with Orlick and the care of his sister? If anyone comes off looking selfish, callous, of weak character - I think it's Pip. I guess we're supposed to excuse him because of his youth...
I don't think Dickens' modern reader will look down on Joe, for any reason. He behaves admirably throughout, even as Pip finds more and more to be ashamed of...
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I really have to wonder why Mrs. Joe wanted the company of Orlick after the attack. It seems to have become a regular thing. I wonder if she remembered the argument they had before the attack. Her brain certainly got scrambled by the attack.
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JONATHAN, I feel I can practically read Miss Havisham's mind re. Pip and the apprenticeship.
She is dispensing with his 'services', but in the tradition of 'noblesse oblige', not
to mention a sense of one's own generosity and general superiority, one rewards the
faithful servant. Am I being too cynical?
I agree. By nature, Joe is a true gentleman.
JUDE, I remember on reading those words, how I smiled at the "gallon of condescension".
There is something to be said for the technique of telling a story from the viewpoints of
both the young narrator and his mature future self. Young Pip is so full of himelf; one
has to grin.
JOANP, I would hope that Dickens' contemporary readers would recognize the goodness and
worth in Joe, behind all the rough manners and poor education. We always tend to make
judgments of people too quickly, on outward appearance.
From what I've seen of Orlick, I can't imagine him doing anything more than what he
must to get by. Pip, well he is behaving in a callous and selfish manner, but as you
stated, he has enough sense of it to be ashamed. I think we must be patient with him,
considering his youth and his obsession with Estella.
That is an excellent question, FRYBABE, and one that bothered me, too. I can only guess
that Mrs. Joe was berating, and perhaps 'rampaging' against Orlick when he attacked her.
She may remember something of that, and is now trying to placate him and keep a watch
on him, for fear he may attack the rest of her family. Does that sound like a reasonable
possiblity?
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Orlick is certainly the logical suspect in Mrs. Joe's attack. Pip thought his sister would accuse him, but instead she tried to befriend him. Perhaps she wanted to make up for the quarrel, surely she didn't think he was her attacker.
A footnote in my book says that Dickens has given a clinically accurate description of the symptoms of trauma to the left temporoparietal region and 3rd and 6th cranial nerves. There are many examples of accurate medical observations in Dickens' books.
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Good luck, Jude, with your eye surgery. May you soon be back with us, enjoying this marvellous narrative that Dickens hammered out in the smithy of his mind. Fine examples of the curious humor that Dickens works into his story. A backward glance, by an older, wiser Pip, at what the expectations were doing to him. Getting respectful stares from the cows in the pasture. Haha. (I remember getting them myself in my cowboy years.) So Pip was out in the marshes again, dreaming about London, and not sure of his luck. Or the reality of it.
Who struck down Mrs Joe? From behind, so she wouldn't recognize her attacker? An escaped convict from the Hulk? A maddened Orlick? More interesting to me, is why Dickens wants her out of the way?
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Just read your thoughts, Pat, on who attacked Mrs Joe. No doubt the author does want us to think that a provoked Orlick did it. He's a very unhappy camper in the forge.
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Jonathan: you were a cowboy?!?
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The important point seems to be whether or not Pip thinks Orlick attacked his sister. If he does, then he should really reconsider going off to London, wouldn't you say? Dickens wants us to think so. He also makes it clear this creepy guy is sweet on Biddy. Pip does know about that -
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One more comment about the cows staring. Mom use to tell us that when she was a school girl she would walk through a cow pasture from (or to) school. The cows always stood there munching their cuds and staring at her as she went. She was a bit intimidated by them.
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What does Pumblechook want from Pip?
Pumblechook wants what he has always wanted. Self-advancement and recognition; association
with the company of the wealthy and prominent. Now that Pip has hopes of being a gentleman
of wealth, Pumblechook immediately proclaims himself Pip's boyhood mentor, supporter and
fondest friend. And tries to convince Pip of the same! The man is incredible.
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Dickens is doing his best to make Orlick out to be a suspicious, jealous, and angry person who holds a grudge. Did you get the impression that was snooping on Pip (or Pip with Biddy) on more than one occasion?
I can readily see why Pip would think Miss Havisham was his benefactor. There were at least two occasions that pointed in that direction. Lawyers are supposed to be pretty closed mouthed about their clients and their dealings. Why would Jaggers tell Miss Havisham about Pip's good fortune? Did Miss H. tell him about her arrangement with Pip to visit regularly at some point? How much did he tell her? He gave no sign of recognizing Pip on his second meeting with him. So again I ask, why would Jaggers tell Miss H. about Pip's great expectations.
Ah, Pumblechook. Yes, he really jumped on the opportunity to convince Pip that he should invest his "expectations" in his seed and feed enterprise. I couldn't help but notice how everyone treated Pip deferentially as soon as they discovered he had come into "expectations" which apparently include money and property. Wonder where the property is, and is it land or another type of property?
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JoanK, I don't want to leave you with a wrong impression. I thought 'cowboy' would look better than farm-boy. I do have a bit of Pip in me, I suppose. My experience with cows was limited to pastures, to and fro, watering, feeding, and milking, and shovelling you-know-what. Just enough to make me feel that Dickens got it right, about how a look from a cow could be interpreted. He spent some time around cows himself, obviously. To make it look like even nature was aware of Pip's good fortune, was a stroke of genius. Homer jazzed up the Iliad with that sort of thing. With Dickens it seemed to be part of a line of thought. Doesn't he have Mrs Joe thinking of her husband and Pip as a pair of calves a few pages earlier? Telling them so in fact.
Everybody is under suspicion. Even Pip. And reading between the lines, it seems he felt himself capable of it.
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"I thought 'cowboy' would look better than farm-boy. I do have a bit of Pip in me."
An interesting observation, Jonathan. Dickens has created a boy with strong feelings and a demanding conscience that will not let him be. Yet, more than once we see him wrestling with this conscience, fearing what others will think of him if they know the truth.
For example - he knows where that filed leg iron came from...his conscience tells him to come clean with Joe about that whole episode. (Pip feels he has provided the weapon.) BUT he feels the truth would alienate Joe - or worse, that Joe wouldn't believe him after the tales he told after that first visit to Satis House.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if this struggle between conscience and truth didn't play a part as Pip grows older. Appearances seem to mean a lot to the boy. Even more than the possiblitiy of finding the assailant. This character trait could get him in trouble when he's older....
"Dickens is doing his best to make Orlick out to be a suspicious, jealous, and angry person who holds a grudge."
I agree with you, Frybabe. Pip's sister's assailant must have been Dolge Orlick. (is Dolge a strange name to you? Sounds like a villain's name - maybe a foreign name?) Who else would have done this? No one has a motive. Strangers are noticed in these parts. I think we can assume it was Orlick, but there is no evidence and he has an alibi.. Can we assume that Pip believes Orlick was the man?
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"Why would Jaggers tell Miss Havisham about Pip's good fortune?"
Frybabe, didn't you see Mr. Jaggers as a no-nonsense lawyer. Not one for small talk or gossip. He has no loyalty to his clients, except to do the work he is paid to do. I get a kick out of him... I suppose he is Miss Havisham's lawyer. Or is he Matthew Pocket's? I'm not sure of his connection to anyone at Satis House - but he was there, Pip saw him there. If he informed Miss H. of Pip's "expectations" I am sure there was a reason for it - a reason relating to Pip's leaving for London.
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Since Miss Havisham's relative, Matthew Pocket, is to be Pip's tutor, it would seem natural for Mr. Jaggers to tell Miss H. at least enough for her to realize how this could happen, that Pip would have enough money to do this.
Pip's overactive conscience interests me. He feels guilty about everything, with or without a real reason for guilt.
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But Pat, he doesn't do what he needs to do to clear his conscience...and get things off his chest. This could mean trouble ahead, don't you think?
What do you think of him as a judge of character - or is it too early, is he too young to ask that?
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Here, too, Dickens provides us with a mystery to solve as in the other two Dickens books we read. If Dickens were writing today, he would be a mystery writer, no doubt about it!
JONATHAN: if you took care of cows, you're a cowboy in my book. Yeehaw!
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from chapter XVIII--the book title is mentioned so many times 'Great Expectations'....which feels like it could read 'coming into money' or 'sudden wealth'....and am not sure I like the title he used for the book---I'd be interested to know how many and what were the alternatives he thought of for titles for this book, if any
sometimes I chose a book based on its title; and I don't think I would have chosen this book based on its title
also sometime around the time period of this book, it seems I have come across books with titles & chapter titles that were a sentence long and seemed to be a synopsis of the book or chapter ...as I guess 'Great Expectations' is a sort of synopsis of the book but extremely brief
just my mundane thoughts for the day on this book
Deb
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Appearances do mean a lot to Pip, now, JOANP. It was not something he would notice
before meeting the people at Satis House. For the first time he has the means of comparison,
and feels ashamed of the wide differences. Really, that exposure to a very different way
of life is key to everything that happens in this story.
I can well understand Pip's 'overactive' conscience. After all, he is surrounded by
people who are constantly pointing out his deficiencies and warning him of dire outcomes
for his failings.
Judgment? Quite poor, I would say, particularly in regard to his view of Biddy. But then,
that sounds very much like the boy-girl sort of interaction common at their age. Pips is not
stupid, by any means. Good judgment only develops fully, ..if at all...at a later stage of
development. Our of one's teens, at least. ::)
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Deb, remember when we were discussing Bleak House, we found that Dickens kept his plans for plot and characters on blue sheets of paper - with a list of titles he was considering as he wrote. I wouldn't be surprised if he kept such notes for Great Expectations. I'll hunt around - it would be interesting to know if he considered other titles...
To tell the truth, I was surprised that anyone had expectations of getting ahead at this time. Did Pip have any such expectations until he met Estella? Is there a difference between "expectations" and "GREAT expectations"?
I thought that Biddy had "expectations' of a future with Pip. Little does she know she has competition for his affection. I feel so badly for Biddy - I can relate to how she feels. But that's a whole other story... ;)
Do you think Pip was aware how much Biddy cared for him, Babi? Is this just a teen crush? How old would you say Pip and Biddy are at this time? Painful as he made his goodbyes to Biddy and Joe, wasn't it? Do you think he'll miss them as they will miss him? Do you think he'll ever return? It seems there can be no going back once of the road to a future of Great Expectations...
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Deb, what I wonder is if "great expectations" was a common phrase used back then to denote a future inheritance, trust, or acquisition of other lucrative contracts or properties. It seems a loose term, since one can have great expectations of having a winning bet, receiving a marriage proposal, or landing a job, for instance. Expectations aren't guarantees, at least not these days.
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A footnote in my book says that "great expectations" was indeed a common phrase at the time. It doesn't make it clear, but I have the impression that it would mean money or property.
My book also says that Dickens picked the title very early in the course of writing the book.
Expectations aren't guarantees, at least not these days.
Yes, and I wonder a bit at how completely everyone accepts the truth of Mr. Jaggers' statements. He doesn't give any specific detail, or proof of his story, doesn't suggest an amount for the "expectation". He just hands Pip twenty guineas and says "meet me in London in a week".
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I did find one comment in my search that it was a phrase often used by young men of little means as a way of saving face, especially in contacts with more wealth acquaintances. In Pip's case, he was able to back up the phrase with real coin given in advance. Would he have gotten the same attention at the tailor's and other shops if he hadn't brought out real money to back up his statement?
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I'm sure he wouldn't have, Frybabe. They all knew the family didn't have money.
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Found it! Dickens' original manuscript for Great Expectations has been on exhibit since 1868 in the Wisbech and Fenland Museum, Cambridgeshire, one of the oldest museums in the UK . You might remember how he struggled with the title for "Bleak House" all through the writing of that novel, changing the title until the very end. I love the way he wrote and edited his manuscripts. It takes a devoted scholar of his work to read the crossouts and changes. Here's from the opening page of Great Expectations... {note the book title at the top of the page}:
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/12/7/1323266726121/A-page-from-the-manuscrip-007.jpg)
"My book also says that Dickens picked the title very early in the course of writing the book." PatH
Dickens had no problem changing the title of Great Expectations once he began to write. Here's an exerpt from a letter in Dickens' own words:
Last week I got to work on the new story. I had previously very carefully considered the state and prospects of All the Year Round, and, the more I considered them, the less hope Isaw of being able to get back, now, to the profit of a separate publication in the old 20numbers.
However I worked on, knowing that what I was doing would run into another groove; and I called a council of war at the office on Tuesday. It was perfectly clear that the one thing to be done was, for me to strike in. I have therefore decided to begin the story as ofthe length of the Tale of Two Cities on the first of December -- begin publishing, that is. I
must make the most I can out of the book. You shall have the first two or three weekly parts to-morrow. The name is GREAT EXPECTATIONS. I think a good name?"
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I've been thinking of one of the questions from above -
"Dickens describes Pip's ambitions very vividly. Does this relate to Dickens' own life?"
Did Dickens himself have Great Expectations? In my search for the original GE manuscript, I came across an interesting essay on the autobiographical nature of Great Expectations - you might find it of interest...
Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dickens/ge/huangcd.html)
“The best autobiographical evocations of nineteenth-century boyhood, in its full imaginative complexity, are to be found in David Copperfield and Great Expectations " (54). Most scholars would agree that these Dickens works are his most autobiographical."
It was the title of the article that got to me...the whole idea of "fictional autobiography" is intriguing, isn't it? Clearly there are elements of Dickens own experience...but we can't assume the whole novel is an autobiography, though autobiographical in part.
"It is impossible to read Great Expectations without sensing Dickens's presence in the book, without being aware that in portraying and judging Pip he is giving us a glimpse of a younger self. In it he explores and perhaps exorcises the sense of guilt and shame that had haunted him all his life, as he rose from humble beginnings to success and wealth and fame."
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JOANP, I think Pip will have times when he missed them. He'll also find it painful to
remember how pleased he was to leave them, but it won't change how glad he is to have this opportunity. How would you feel if someone told you that all your dreams could be fulfilled?
I can't imagine him never returning, but now that he is ashamed of his family and
home, any visit is bound to be awkward.
Biddy has more good sense than Pip and is more mature. I'm sure she is hurt by Pip's
attitude, but she sees him clearly and knows what to expect. When it becomes clear that she doesn't believe Pip will keep his promise to keep in touch and visit often, I believe her.
I think I would have to believe Jaggers, PAT. He is hardly likely to be handing out money from his own pocket!
Egads! Surely someone made a clean copy of that manuscript before it went to the
printers! :o
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Thanks for that very interesting essay, JoanP. It reinforces or explains some things I was feeling. Pip's guilt feelings about everything are so well described that it's not surprising to learn they mirror Dickens' own feelings. And the frantic nature of his longing to rise to a better station in the world reminds me of David Copperfield, and Dickens' own feelings about having to work as a child.
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"In it he explores and perhaps exorcises the sense of guilt and shame that had haunted him all his life, as he rose from humble beginnings to success and wealth and fame."
Two sources of guilt: one in feeling that he is not worthy of being this new person, and two guilt for feeling that shame in his background and the people who raised him.
Anyone who moves from one walk of life to another must deal with having, in a sense, two identities. It makes me think of the way my father, coming from a poor uneducated working class family into a scholarly middle-class environment handled it. Quite differently from Pip -- he would make fun of middle class pretensions.
An interesting literary example is Mark Twain. He used his Midwestern folksiness to become the darling of the efite elite Eastern intelligensia.
These are American examples. I don't think that would have worked in England. But surely Dickens sense of guilt explains why he tried so hard to present the situation of the poor to his readers.
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What a thought-provoking essay re the autobiographical element in Great Expectations.
'Pip...a glimpse of a younger self.'
It was interesting to read that Dickens reread David Copperfield so as not to repeat himself in Great Expectations. That would seem like confirmation of the auto-bio theory. I can think of several objections to that. I can't see Dickens feeling guilty about anything. He was too successful for that. And Dickens, I believe, would never have wanted his readers to think that he had it handed to him, like Pip. Dickens was an ambitious little guy and did it his way. All the way.
Would you trust Dickens with your life? He would make it interesting. But after seeing what he did with his friend Leigh Hunt as Skimpole in Bleak House, I just don't believe his honesty. Pip's great expectations. Skimpole's just desserts. Both were getting what they asked for.
'Dickens mainly wrote about orphans because he felt abandoned by his parents as a child.'
That's from Huang's essay. He's on to something there but leaving truth behind. My opinion. It was Dickens's Dad who told him he could be living in Gad's Hill someday if he applied himself. His mother taught him to read.
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Today's the last day for this section, though, as always, we can continue talking about it as much as we please. What haven't we talked about? Pip's churned up feelings as he leaves for London? Joe's sense of his own strengths and weaknesses?
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I'd like to pursue the idea of "fictional autobiography" a bit more - the term sees to be oxymoronic, doesn't it? Jonathan writes, "I can't see Dickens feeling guilty about anything. I just don't believe his honesty."
I was intrigued at this:
"Shortly before he began to write Great Expectations , Dickens wrote a fragment of an autobiography, which he kept to himself. A short time later he sorted through, re-read, and burnt many personal letters, and also re-read David Copperfield, perhaps the most overtly autobiographical (in a psychological or a symbolic sense) of all his novels."
Don't you wish the "fragment of an autobiography" had been preserved? The idea of Dickens burning all his personal letters and papers - it's almost as if he knows that there will be interest in his personal autobiography and is making sure that no one gets into that. I guess that's understandable.
I think we need to consider Great Expectations for what it is...fiction - with only nuances of autobiographical information. Wouldn't you like to be a published author? You could rewrite your life story, your autobiography so that your very worst traits are explained away - or totally eliminated. There is some truth here, of course. But this is not a complete portrait of Dickens. It is Pip's story.
Also from that essay on "Fictional Autobiography"
"In Great Expectations , we could trace what Dickens thought about his life and the people around him because it contains so many autobiographical elements. But what about the elements he does not touch upon?"
That was my thought - Pip is motivated by desire for Estella. Was there such a woman in Dickens' young life? You don't hear about her in Dickens' biographies. But you do hear of his lifelong interest/passion for young, very young maidens - to the very end of his life when he left his wife, the mother of his ten children, for the much younger actress. Do you remember his passion for his wife's younger sister?
Mary Hogarth died in DIckens' home at the age of 17 - Dickens is said to have removed a ring from her lifeless fingers and wore it in her memory for his entire life - wrote of her to his confidant John Forster as "that spirit which directs my life." From that time on Dickens had a passion for young women - both in his real like and his fiction. Is this unattainable, desirable young woman Estella in Great Expectations?
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"His mother taught him to read." Jonathan, I can believe that, but I wonder if the article had it right about her domination in that household -
"Dickens was forced to labor at Warren's Blacking Factory, which was a damaging psychological experience in itself, but his mother compounded the injury when she insisted that he continue working there, even after the debtor's prison released his father."
If that is the truth, then I can see the resemblance between Dickens' mother and Pip's sister.
"Mrs. Joe wore the pants in the household, while Joe serves as an effete and effeminate child-like figure. Pip never refers to his sister by her given name; she always retains the masculine name of her husband, an indication that she has taken over much more than masculinity from Joe. Dickens never fully forgave his parents, and they would appear as characters in unflattering incarnations within his works. "
JoanK, it seems to be that Dickens is doing much as your dad did - holding up the Middle Class, such as Pumblechook for example - for mockery. He knows how to make these silly people squirm with his exaggerations of their behavior. When he believed Pip was a nobody, he fed him water-ed down milk and bread crumbs. When it became clear that Pip was to be someone of importance, the excessive hand-shaking, the wine, the meal itself, fit for a royal - liver wing, no less!
I've been wondering why Dickens felt the need to remove Mrs. Joe from the story - she was a motivating force in Pip's life, wasn't she? I find it unsettling to see her sitting there laughing and talking with Orlick - a shadow of her former self. Would she have been an obstacle in Pip's plans for the future? I don't think so. So what was gained by the attack?
There's a question about the Bow Street Runners in the heading - I was going to try to find why they were ineffective in their investigation - and came across this Bow Street Runners game (http://kbhgames.com/frame/d3d3LmNoYW5uZWw0LmNvbS9oaXN0b3J5L21pY3Jvc2l0ZXMvQy9jaXR5LW9mLXZpY2UvZ2FtZS9ib3ctc3RyZWV0LXJ1bm5lci9nYW1lLmh0bWw=/n//) - which used up my computer time for this morning...
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
JULY and August Book Club Online.
GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexfirsteditioncover2.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatextitlepage.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexanniversarycover.jpg)
Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012
Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.
"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illXX.gif) | Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1
July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX
VOLUME 2
July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI (XX - XXV)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illXXIII.gif) |
Chapter I (XX)
1. Were London and Mr. Jaggers' law offices anything like what Pip expected? Is he disappointed? What prompted him to ask if London is a very wicked place?
2. What seems to be the deciding factor in Jaggers' acceptance of new clients? What does he think of Pip's ability to handle the liberal allowance he is to receive? Do you think Jaggers is likely to provide Pip guidance if the need arises?
Chapter II (XXI)
1. Is Pip to room in town in the dingy Barnard's Inn with the young man he fought with at Miss Havisham's?
Why is young Pocket not living with his family five miles away in Hammersmith? Why is he here in London in this run-down place?
2. What does Pip think of Herbert's expectations? Do you see them as fast friends in the future?
Chapter III (XXII)
1. How does Herbert explain his presence at Satis House the day of the fight? Was he also smitten with Estella?
2. What does he tell Pip of Miss Havisham's history? Why was Herbert's father banned from Satis House? Is that half-brother and fiance still alive?
3. The Pocket children, Herbert's young siblings, are described as "tumbling up" rather than growing up. Who is the head of this household? Are you familiar with Dickens' large family descriptions?
Chapter IV (XXIII)
1. Do you see a contrast between young Belinda Pocket's expectations for marriage and Estella's?
2. How do the two young men, also Matthew Pocket's pupils, differ from Pip in their expectations for the future? How has Dickens described them? Do you see either of them becoming Pip's friends?
Chapter V (XXIV)
1. Wemmick tells Pip Jaggers "always seems he has set a mantrap and watching it and suddenly you're caught." Do you get the feeling that he is warning Pip to beware of Jaggers?
2. When Pip observes Jaggers in court, what does he conclude about his abilities? Who were more intimidated by Jaggers, the thieves or the bench? Where do Wemmick's gifts, his "portable property come from?
Chapter VI (XXV)
1. Pip seems to have enemies in London, without knowing it. Why should Mrs. Pocket's sister, Camilla hate Pip?
2. What do you suppose Pip's newly-acquired expensive habits are? Who do you count as Pip's friends in London? What do you think of Jaggers' clerk, Mr. Wemmick? A friend?
Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1400/1400-h/1400-h.htm#2HCH0001); Dickens and Victorian Education (http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/schools-and-education/victorian-education.html); Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dickens/ge/huangcd.html); The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/bazalgette_joseph.shtml); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/cross13.htm) |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Does anyone remember who Sarah is? Her relationship to Matthew Pocket, who is to be Pip's tutor in London? She seems to work at Satis House - and when Pip goes to say goodbye to Miss H., it is Sarah Pocket who is stunned into silence at Pip's appearance and good fortune.
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Do you think so PatH? I didn't read the whole thing, just what it had to say about the Pockets and their relationship to Ms. H. which is still somewhat confusing.
I removed the post.
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Thanks, Frybabe, I removed my warning too.
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The Bow Street Runners are old friends to some of us mystery story nuts. They were London's first professional police force, founded in 1749 by novelist Henry Fielding, in his capacity as a magistrate. Fielding was succeeded by his brother John, also a magistrate, and incidentally blind, who improved the force. John Fielding is featured in a very fine series of historical detective stories by Bruce Alexander.
Following the Metropolitan Police Act of 1829, a new police force was founded by Sir Robert Peel, nicknamed "Peelers". The Bow Street Runners were disbanded in 1839.
A footnote in my book says that Dickens had nothing but contempt for the Runners, but greatly admired the Peelers.
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Interesting quotes, JOANP. I really can't see Joe as effete or effeminate, though. Not
in the least. Childlike, perhaps, to some degree; there is an innocence about him. So I
would tend to take as suspect that commentators opinion.
Possibly Mrs. Joe's death served a dual purpose. One, to bring Pip home and remind him of his oligations there, and secondly, to establish Orlick as a suspicious and probably violent person.
Some interesting questions for this new section, as usual. Going to the big city for
the first time. I have the vague impression that small town folk genrally considered the
'big city' as a wicked place. A young boy going there alone would, in any case, probably
be wise to be wary and cautious.
From what we've seen of Jagger so far, I suspect he would advise Pip only in those
matters that fell within what he perceived as his contract. Handle the finances, make the necessary arrangements, etc. Personal advice seems to be limited to "Don't ask!"
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This is what I think makes these group discussions so interesting. PatH. Not being familiar with the Bow Street Runners, all that went right over my head when I was reading it myself. I guess I did conclude that there was not much of an investigation into Mrs. Gargery's attack - and wondered why. This was a small villiage and the attack nearly killed her. To call off the investigation seemed rather irresponsible.
Am I right to conclude that the Bow Street Runners were similar to the Guardian Angels - not a regular police force, but a group of volunteers that do their best to patrol the streets? .
The formation of the London Metropolitan Police force by Sir Robert Peel in 1829 brought an end to their activities.
So where was the local police force during the investigation? Was there one?
If the Bow Street Runners were disbanded in 1839 and the new police force established in1829, and Dickens wrote Great Expectations in 1860, do you think that Dickens is emphasizing the fact that the narrator is looking back in time to the days before there was an established police force, PatH? Which would explain why the attacker was not apprehended...
Pip's observation:
"The Constables, and the Bow Street men from London—for, this happened in the days of the extinct red-waistcoated police—were about the house for a week or two, and did pretty much what I have heard and read of like authorities doing in other such cases. They took up several obviously wrong people, and they ran their heads very hard against wrong ideas, and persisted in trying to fit the circumstances to the ideas, instead of trying to extract ideas from the circumstances. "
So Pip is aware that the attacker is out there somewhere - and yet seems to not give a second thought to leaving his sister behind - his sister who survived the attack and might be able to identify her attacker if he returns. Does Pip believe the attacker was Orlick? We know he believes Orlick is sweet on Biddy. What does this tell us about Pip's desire to go off to London?
About Biddy - Pip couldn't even tell Biddy that he was going to London. Left it up to Joe to tell her. Doesn't this say that he is aware of her feelings for him - but that he doesn't want to be talked out of it, by anyone?
Let's remember these things about young Pip...
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Can you believe it? We are moving on to the second of three Volumes of the published book version of Great Expectations? What do you think of the pace? Are you with us? Are we moving too fast - too slow? Please let us know what you think - we can always adjust.
The first printed versions appeared in three separate volumes. Each of the volumes began with Chapter I. Some editions are numbered just as the original three editions were numbered - while others are numbered beginning with CHapter I all the way through from I - LIX. So there is no confusion we've tried to accomodate the differences by including both forms of numbering the chapters For example, this week we will be discussing the first six chapters of the second volume - on the schedule in the heading, the chapter numbers will appear like this - Chapters I - VI (XX - XXV)
How are your Roman numbers? :D
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Babi started us off this morning with Pip's coach ride to London. I forgave his sneaking out without goodbyes to his loved ones, when I saw him struggling with the idea of getting off the coach and running back for proper goodbyes at each stop. Even if he didn't do it, at least that indicated he had feelings...
By the time you finish reading Dickens, you have a good idea of what the city was like in the mid 19th century. "An open sewer of filth, vice and corruption."
Does anyone have an idea WHEN London streets were cleaned up? Was it a gradual process? It sure doesn't sound like a tourist destination, does it?
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Here is an answer to your question JoanP. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/bazalgette_joseph.shtml The article is about Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works that was created in 1856 to address the greatly increasing population of London and the need to organize public works into a unified effort across the entire city.
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That's a very interesting article, Frybabe. So the rapidly increasing population made an already stinky, unhealthy situation worse. I wonder if London was better or worse than other large cities of the time. You may remember the section in Bleak House describing the unhealthy air from the slums spreading to the wealthier sections of London.
Bazalgette seems to have made a remarkable improvement.
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Thanks for the article, Fry. Will keep it in the heading for rereading. From the dates provided in the article, Pip has arrived in London before the sewer network was complete, the "big Stink" has been eliminated.
PatH - there is so much here that brings Bleak House to mind - as if these dark and smelly streets around the court house on Holborn Hill are our old stomping grounds. Remember Esther's first impressions of London and how happy she was to get out of the city to Bleak House? I remember too the unhealthy slums, and how near they were to the homes of the wealthy. Two powerful lawyers are present too - Tulkinghorn and Jaggers. Do you see any resemblance between these two? They must have run into one another in Court, don't you think?
I'm not sure what to think of Mr. Jaggers. On the one hand, he seems to be a man without empathy or concern for any of his clients. On the other, he seems to extend himself to the boy, almost - almost protective.
I'm trying to figure out who made the arrangement for Pip to live with Herbert Pocket in Barnard's Inn? Do you think it was Jaggers? If not, then who?
And what is Herbert Pocket doing in such a place?
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No, the Bow Street Runners were part of the police force, considered the 'elite' group.
They kind of faded away as police training produced a more competent rank and file. There
was no such thing as 'forensics' in those days, and unless there was an escaped convict
in the area, the investigation of the attack on Mrs. Joe would have come to a dead end
without witnesses or the testimony of the victim.
Yes, Jaggers made the arrangement for Pip's studies with Mr. Pocket and placed him
with Herbert to have his country boy manners citified. Given their relationship to Miss
Havisham, I would guess that is connection for Jaggers.
Herbert is a gentleman, but a poor one. Bernard's Inn is what he can afford, while he
'looks about' for future prospects.
My roman numbers are excellent. I frequently run across them in crossword puzzles.
Half of mmxii is mvi. 8)
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So these two young men meet again. Pip and the 'pale young gentleman', Herbert Pocket. The latter, as Babi points out, enthusiastic about his 'future prospects', and Pip already enjoying and sure of his expectations. Take note of the mutual respect of a budding relationship.
Thanks, Frybabe, for the link to Joseph Bazalgette and the great London cleanup. Monentous timing. A generation earlier and world literature would not have been enriched with these tales of Dickens's London. A strange milieu, in which Pip dreams about becoming a gentleman.
One of us has pointed out Dickens's great talent as a mystery writer. Indeed! Mysteries by the dozen. Why, as Frybabe asked, does lawyer Jaggers inform Miss Havisham about Pip's good fortune? Can't guess it. But being privy to all her affairs Jaggers would know she is not Pip's patron. It must be someone else. GE, like Bleak House, strikes me more like a jigzaw puzzle than a conventional mystery. New and old pieces lying about waiting to be interlocked.
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Jaggers is an interesting contrast to Tulkinghorn in Bleak House. Tulkinghorn may be fairly heartless, but he is loyal to the interests of his client (at least as he sees them). He has standards, admittedly cold and unfeeling ones, and he sticks to them.
Jaggers, on the other hand, is totally out for the money. He won't take a client unless he's paid first. He seems to have the reputation of winning cases, but this may be less through legal ability than through bullying, dishonest witnesses, cooking evidence, and maybe bribery.
I see we are going to see him on his home ground in the next section; maybe he'll become clearer.
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Both men seem to be consumed with their work. Both seem to avoidmuch human contact, living alone, no family life that we can see. As you say, Pat, Tulkinghorn was loyal to Sir Leicester Dedlock - and the family name. Do you think that Jaggers might have such allegiance to one of his clients? The client who is sponsoring Pip. It's interesting to me that Jaggers is referred to as Pip's "guardian." What are the implications of that? Is he the Guardian for anyone else? Does he regard Pip as a "client" or something more?
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"Take note of the mutual respect of a budding relationship."
I'm not sure that Pip respects Herbert's abilities,as much as he likes and trusts him, Jonathan. More than once he lets us know that Herbert doesn't have what it takes to advance in the world, even though he has big plans and high hopes.
The Pockets are an interesting family, aren't they? Matthew Pocket is to be Pip's tutor...his son is Herbert Pocket, the fair young man Pip fought with when a young boy. Do you think that Herbert was as smitten with Estella's beauty as Pip was?
I have a difficult time thinking of Herbert as Belinda Pocket's son. In fact, it is difficult to think of her as anyone's mother. We still don't know who Sarah Pocket is, do we? Herbert's Grandma? What is she doing at Satis House? If Matthew Pocket is Miss Havisham's cousin, what is Sarah Pocket's relationship to her? So many questions... "a jigzaw puzzle with new and old pieces lying about waiting to be interlocked." Love that image, Jonathan.
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I'm still recovering from the cataract surgery but I can read and write once again.
I've read your posts and the chapters for this week but I feel detached from you all. Because I had that break I developed some different ideas while marveling at some of the best Dicken's writing I have experienced.
The first paragraph of chapter II we have a perfect description of a character done in an original way-simply brilliant!
Then Pip's first impressions of London...not the golden city on the hill he had imagined.
Why don't you folks like Jaggers?
In the list of characters I referred to previously this is what they say.
Mr. Jaggers, a prominent London lawyer who represents the interests of diverse clients both criminal and civil. He represents Pip's benefaactor and is Miss Havisham's lawyer as well. By the end of the story , his law practice is the common element that brushes many of the characters.
So let's wait to judge him.
I wrote about Sara Pocket previously as well. She is "a dry brown corrugated old woman, with a small face that might have been made out of walnut shells and a large mouth like a cats without the whiskers". Another aging relative of Miss Havisham who is only interested in her money.
What I found horrible was Belinda and her personality and attitude towards her children, towards her husband and towards life in general.Was Dickens ,in a way, attacking his own wife/
Perhaps, but wether or not he was has little or no bearing on his amazing talents to engage us in a story with such real characters. His literary genius is breathtaking.Who am I to judge his personal life and relationships? We aren't here as a board of morality but as a literary group working to put together the pieces of GE as they are handed to us by their author.
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When Herbert Pocket meets Pip, he doesn't like to call him Philip, and suggests that since Pip has been a blacksmith, and they are harmonious, he should call Pip Handel, after Handel's Harmonious Blacksmith. This is one of the standard pieces given to (or inflicted upon) piano students, and led me to a youtube listening session. Non-enthusiasts can just not click on any of my links.
Here's Sviatoslav Richter--sorry about the visuals, but I liked the performance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y16rBGUj3fY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y16rBGUj3fY&feature=related)
For followers of Don Reid's music conversation on our sister site: Alfred Cortot was listed as one of the world's 10 best pianists, and I, at least, had never heard of him, but here he is, and very good too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVJ_awZD1ig&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVJ_awZD1ig&feature=related)
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Judy, I'm glad you're all right. I had cataract surgery a few years ago, and aside from a gluey recuperation, it was great, and I can now see better than I could since I was 10. Your vision goes in and out a bit before it settles down, but then you're all set.
Who am I to judge his personal life and relationships? We aren't here as a board of morality but as a literary group working to put together the pieces of GE as they are handed to us by their author.
In George Orwell's essay about Dickens he points out that Dickens' personal life doesn't invalidate his work any more than the second best bed invalidates Shakespeare.
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I googled Dicken's relationships and found this brief article. Read the bottom two paragraphs.
http://www.dickens-and-london.com/Women.htm
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It had occurred to me, too, JUDE, that the detached Mrs. Pocket might be a take-off on
Dicken's wife. I know next to nothing about her, but I did note that her sister seemed to
be the one taking care of house and family. Of course, with that many children, Mrs.
Dickens may have been too worn out to do much. :P
Enjoyed those paintings, FRYBABE. The Waterhouse was the only one I had seen before.
As to the moral question, it makes sense to judge genius by what it produces for our
admiration. The morality is a personal issue and, imo, no more my business than the
overly invaded private lives of our 'celebrities'.
I would say the only time another person's morality and integrity need to be known, is
when they are seeking, or placed, in a position of public responsibility.
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JUDE: so glad you're back! Sadly, I learned a long time ago not to use people whose art or accomplishments I admire as personal models.
But his attitude toward women in his personal life does make me look more closely at the women in his novels to see what kind of woman he admires. Esther in Bleak House? Estella is quite different: makes me wonder if she's the heroine after all?
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I too, was happy to see you on the road to recovery Jude. We've missed you and your thoughtful posts on Dickens" writing. It's easy to get lost in his intricate, carefully constructed plots and over look the way he tells the story.
"Who am I to judge his personal life and relationships?" Dickens himself seems to find much in his personal life to apologize for in these novels - or to defend. I find it impossible to separate the two. I don't think we are judging him, or invalidating his work as much as we are observing him and how he injected his own life and experience into his novels.
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I agree that the personal life of a writer is of limited relevance to his work; it only matters if it can help us to understand his writings, and moral judgements aren't necessary.
Dickens' wife was a poor housekeeper, and that bugged him, so no doubt Mrs. Pocket is in part a take-off on her. It's hard to believe anyone could be so completely oblivious, and even harder to believe that none of the children has yet managed to kill itself accidentally.
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I didn't get the impression that we were judging, or condemning or attempting to invalidate Dickens fiction in any way. You can't help recognizing well-known events in his own life that found their way into his writing...
Dickens seems to repeat the theme of the poor mother, overwhelmed with her large family - and the helpless father who can do nothing to improve the situation. Weren't you reminded of the Jellyby family in Bleak House when reading of the Pockets?
I came across this comment which Dickens wrote to a friend in a letter:
"I begin to count the children incorrectly, they are so many; and to find fresh ones coming down to dinner in a perfect procession and I thought there were no more." Matthew Pocket?
Catherine Hogarth Dickens (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRhogarthC2.htm)
Another quote from a letter found in the above link:
Dickens wrote to Angela Burdett-Coutts about his marriage to Catherine: "We have been virtually separated for a long time. We must put a wider space between us now, than can be found in one house... If the children loved her, or ever had loved her, this severance would have been a far easier thing than it is. But she has never attached one of them to herself, never played with them in their infancy, never attracted their confidence as they have grown older, never presented herself before them in the aspect of a mother." This reference to Catherine Dickens as a mother describes Mrs. Jellyby and Belinda Pocket too, doesn't it? -
An interesting article, Fry. The line that got my attention - "My father did not understand women." Do you agree with that - from his portrayal of women in his novels?
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What a strange man. What a strange marriage. Some of it must have found its way into his stories. My sympathy is all with Catherine. Strange that she left no record of her life with Charles. Or did she? Did Dickens really see a model in her for some of the dysfunctional mothers in his fictions? Not likely, judging by several quotes in Joan's link to CHD. Here's one:
Henry Morley met Catherine in the late 1840s, ten years into the marriage:
"One sees in five minutes that she loves her husband and her children, and has a warm heart for anybody who won't be satirical, but meet her on her own good natured footing. We were capital friends at once, and had abundant talk together."
The Hogarths are also described as being a cut above the Dickenses, socially. Perhaps Catherine was Charles's Estella. Until he landed on his feet.
I seem to remember reading that Herbert Pocket wasn't overwhelmed by Estella, as Pip was. But then, being the 'young gentleman'. he didn't get the supercilious treatment from her.
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PAT
THANK YOU for that moment in memory, listening to the Vinyl Record of Alfred Cortat playing Handel on an old "Victrola" record with the dog listening to his master's voice. I was familiar with the melody but not the name of the piece and ddn't attach it to the Handel as a name for Pip.
I was thinking more of the slang NY word in which a handle means monicker or name.
Nice to know that the composer Handel wormed himself into Dicken's book.
I also had a moment of warmth when our hero Pip seeing all the London horses wished that Joe could be there to get the business of shoeing them. That also answered a query of mine relating to the great portrait by Turner of the Blacksmith. I wondered if in Joe's shop shoeing horses was still a part of the Blacksmith's profession.
Guess it was.
Thank you all for the good wishes on my recovery.
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Absolutely, JOANP. I was reminded of the Jellyby's more than once. That family image seems
to have been a sore point with Dickens, one to which he often returned.
I would think it fairly evident that Drummle will never be a friend. Really unpleasant
character. He will no doubt continue to play the role of thorn in Pip's side. The other
young fellow seems pleasant enough, tho. sort of 'minor key'.
Wemmick is still a question mark. He seems rather stiff and perfectly 'correct' in his
duties.
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Here are some interesting facts regarding GE:
There were ten movie versions of the book . The first in1917 and the last in 2012.
There were five TV versions of the story. The first in 1953 and the last in 2011.
There have been two stage versions of the book. One serious and theo other transferred into a musical,
There have been two spin off movies . Both based on the convict Magwitch.
I saw the 1946 flm version (known as the most celebrated film version). It scared the living daylights out of me. I still remember the frightening scenes on the moor with the convict.
So Dickens and GE lives on and influences and teached generation after generation about what it's like to be a poor boy with Great Expectations and how that may turn out in the end.
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That's an amazing record, Jude. Thanks for bringing that to our attention. I share your enthusiasm for Dickens. Just amazing what he does with life's little dramas. Where did he get all the inspiration? Partly, no doubt, from his own experience. The wild, uproarious family scenes must have been familiar, with the noisy kids distracting him from his writing. Blaming the 'problem' on Mom is a cheap shot in my opinion. But I do believe he wanted us to see some humor in the domestic circus.
I don't dislike Jaggers. As with children, so with lawyers. Go where the drama is. And where more likely than in a lawyer's practice?
Will Mathew Pocket succeed in making gentlemen out of Pip, Drummle, and Shortstop? Pip is a quick study, but those other two...I have my doubts. I am surprised that Pip so readily agreed to being called Handel. I would have thought that he would be sensitive about being constantly reminded of his blackksmithing days.
What can we make of all those trophies in Jagger's chambers? The heads on the wall, the rings on Wemmick's fingers, etc? Or of Jagger's courtroom manner? Wilder than anything in Belinda's parlour.
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Here's something interesting. A new book about the Bow Street Runners and the policing of London, 1750-1840. The First English Detectives, by J. M. Beattie. A review in TLS, June 15, 2012, explains why Dickens may have been unhappy with the Runners. They 'relied on a catch 'em and hang 'em philosophy of policing', while the Peelers 'aimed instead to prevent crime by the collection of intelligence that came from a constant surveillance of the streets.'
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Thanks for that link to those recordings, PatH - it brings up Dickens musical background. I read somewhere that both Dickens and his sister played instruments - maybe it was a cello Dickens played (maybe not)...his sister wrote music. The two performed for the family. I have no idea when this took place - perhaps when he was younger - before his father went to prison for not paying his debts - for those music lessons. Dickens loved music - as an adult. Opera especially.
An interesting question, Jonathan - "I am surprised that Pip so readily agreed to being called Handel. I would have thought that he would be sensitive about being constantly reminded of his blackksmithing days." Maybe he knows of the great Handel and doesn't think many know of the Blacksmith connection. I don't know.
Jude, a trivia question for you - what was the name of that RCA Victor dog?
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So Dickens and GE lives on and influences and teached generation after generation about what it's like to be a poor boy with Great Expectations and how that may turn out in the end.
Jude, I'll agree we see what it was to be poor - and rise above it. But there is so much more here in the sub-text, don't you think? Pip couldn't wait to get away from those who loved him - not even a goodbye. I think with sadness how I left home the first time - and avoided the phone calls from my anxious, caring father who needed to hear that I was not homesick.
You get a different perspective when reading GE at this age - different from when you were younger.
The Pockets - overwhelmed with those ten children - nothing could have prepared Belinda Pocket, the spoiled only child for what was to come. At least she married Matthew for love. Didn't they elope? I think Dickens is writing about life, how we handle the hand we are dealt, the mistakes we make, the regrets that will surely follow. Belinda Pocket gives up on her children, turns to books, as Mrs. Jellyby turned to her charitable work in Africa, while her own children "tumbled up" - the responsibility of an older sibling, or worse, the servants.
I think Pip needs to make strong friends - friends who will be with him on the way down, not just when his pockets are full. I'm counting Herbert as one of a friend - Wemmick too, Babi. Wemmick was startled when Pip reached out to shake his hand, but then invited him to his home. That means a lot for this man who separates work from home. I liked Wemmick and obvious care and affection for the Aged.
Jonathan, I have mixed feelings about Jaggers. His brusque mannter, the way he shows no mercy to those who need him, but cannot pay. Maybe he's just a realist - knowing that there are many, many people in need of his services, and cannot help them all. He seems to accept the fact that Pip will not be able to handle so much money. Will he still be his "guardian," his protector, when the money runs out. What is Pip spending it on, by the way - besides clothes?
Babi - I'd count Drummle out - he looks down on him because he's not from money. Not sure about Startop (Shortstop as Jonathan calls him :D ) ...not counting on him to stand with Pip.
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I'm exploring a 1851 Map of London in just the area where Pip is. I found Cheapside, being the main thoroughfare to the right of St. Paul's Cathedral. Wood Street is off of Cheapside going north. I couldn't locate Cross Keys. Little Britain, where Mr. Jaggars resides is north of the cathedral and to the left off of Alder's Gate Street. Bartholomew Close is apparently what is just called Close on this old map. Between Little Britain and the cathedral stands Newgate Prison, although the map does not mark which buildings it occupies off of Newgate Street. Holborn Hill is located at the left of the map and constitutes part of the red line that crosses the map. I take it that Barnard's Inn is at the top of the hill or close to it. Holburn Hill is now part of A40 and called Holburn Viaduct on a modern map until it gets to Holburn Circle, after that it becomes High Holburn. http://london1851.com/cross13.htm Here is an old picture of Barnard's Inn http://spitalfieldslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/45-28.jpg Those of you who participated in the Bleak House discussion may remember photos of the area posted there. I couldn't keep up with it at the time, but I thought someone posted photos from the spitalfieldlife.com site.
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It's hard to keep up, I agree, Fry. Thanks for the link to the map and the photo of Barnard's Inn - will put it in the heading right now. Notice that if you open the link to the map and then click on the map, you can enlarge it.
I didn't understand why Pip is living in Barnard's Inn...was he supposed to be living at the Pocket's, but chose to live with Herbert in this dismal place?
My son lived in the Spitalfield area in central London until a few months ago when he moved to Portabellow Rd.
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JoanP, I think Mr. Jaggars had made the arrangements for Pip to live with Herbert prior to his arrival. I think it was a permanent arrangement as a rented bed was sent there. Pip was to go with Herbert on the following Monday to visit Matthew at his home, five miles away.
I was curious about Newgate prison because it wasn't marked on the old map (not that I could find) nor on a modern one. Up until 1858, prisoners lived in wards around central courtyards. Elizabeth Fry made a stink about the deplorable accommodations, which resulted in the prison being remodeled to individual cells. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Newgate_Prison_Publ_1800.jpg It was torn down in 1904, and only a few bits remain.
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JoanP
You asked for the name of the dog in His Master's Voice (HMV).
Well I appealed to the Google God and got more info than I could "Handel".
The original owner of NIPPER was Mark Barraud. He died but left some vinyl (or bakylite) records of his voice, his victrola and his dog to his brother, Frances, a well known artist.
Nipper would listen for hours to Mark's voice on the victrola.
Finally Frances made a painting of the terrier listening and thus was born an icon that till today has 400 stores worldwide known as HMV.
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We're ready for the next time we're on a quiz show, Jude - The RCA dog's name Nipper - and Pip's name, Phillip Pirrip. You were thorough in your research. How about Buster Brown's dog's name? :D
(http://spitalfieldslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/45-28.jpg)
Fry, I'm beginning to think that Barnard's Inn was the best possible accomodation for Pip - He would be living with another young man - someone known to Jaggers - the son of Matthew Pocket, who was to be Pip's tutor. Would Pip be making the five mile trip each day for his lessons? The place is depressing from the outside, but Pip has some discretionary funds to fix up the interior - heck, he has enough money to call in a professional decorator...
Herbert was full of information about Miss Havisham and her fiance, wasn't he? ...Was there anything you found memorable from what he told Pip? How about the fact that the half-brother - and the finance are still living - somewhere? Do you think they will make an appearance before we come to the end of the tale?
I liked the way Herbert just shrugged off the fact that he didn't pass Miss Havisham's scrutiny - and would not be in the running for the "great expectations" she might have offered him. Is that why Sarah Pocket was startled (dismayed?) when PIP showed up at Satis House in his new clothes? She knew at that moment that Pip was to receive what Herbert did not. WHO IS SARAH POCKET?
Herbert wasn't sorry about losing the interest of the lovely Estella either was he? He had her number from the start...
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Someone asked me why I don't like Jaggers. The biggest reason is because he is dishonest in his cases. There are two instances of him using witnesses who he knows will testify to order. And he's sneaky about it--handles things through his clerks in such a way that theoretically he doesn't know what is going on. Faking data is an unforgivable sin in my books.
He's also an unpleasant bully, and obviously doesn't care about his clients, plus he doesn't seem to be interested in the actual facts of his cases.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
JULY and August Book Club Online.
GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexfirsteditioncover2.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatextitlepage.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexanniversarycover.jpg)
Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012
Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.
"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illXXVII.gif) | Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1
July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX
VOLUME 2
July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI (XX - XXV)
July 29-August 4 ~ Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illXXX.gif) |
Chapter VII (XXVI)
1. What does Jaggers warn Pip about Drummle?
2. What are your impressions of Molly?
Chapter VIII (XXVII)
1. Why does Joe come to London?
2. What is the result of Joe's trip?
Chapter IX (XXVIII)
1. How does Dickens bring back the prisoner theme?
2. Who is famous in his hometown as Pip's earliest companion, patron and friend? What is Pip's attitude to this supposed fact?
Chapter X (XXIX)
1. How does Pip see himself as he returns to Miss Havisham's?
2. How does Pip follow Miss Havisham's teaching in relation to his feelings for Estella?
3. Pip doesn't visit Joe. Why?
Chapter XI (XXX)
1. How does Pip get even with Orlick?
2. How does Herbert contrast with Pip?
3. What does Pip send to Joe and why does he send it?
4. Why does Herbert accuse Pip of “looking into our gift-horse's mouth with a magnifying glass"?
Chapter XII (XXXI)
1. How does Pip's night at the theater affect him?
Chapter XIII (XXXII)
1. Why does Dickens include a picture of Newgate Prison?
2. How does Estella appear to Pip in contrast to his visit to the prison?
Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1400/1400-h/1400-h.htm#2HCH0001); Dickens and Victorian Education (http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/schools-and-education/victorian-education.html); Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dickens/ge/huangcd.html); The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/bazalgette_joseph.shtml); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/cross13.htm) |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Here's a bit that amused me--the description of Jaggers' office chair: "...of deadly black horsehair, with rows of brass nails round it like a coffin...." People who have actual experience with horsehair furniture tell me that the hairs break off, producing tiny sharp ends that poke you in the bottom when you sit down.
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The description of Mr. Wemmick's home is a hoot. He strikes me as a bit eccentric, a tinkerer and all round handyman around the place. I am amazed that his neighbors should but up with the nightly cannon. Another interesting bit is his description of his father as "aged parent" and addresses him as such, never calling him father or by name.
Walworth is a bit of a hike from Jaggar's office. It is across the bridge and south. It looks like it is three times as far from the Thames as is Jaggar's office. Like I said, a hike. Some famous people are from there: Michael Faraday, Charles Babbage, Robert Browning, Michael Caine, Charlie Chaplin, John Ruskin. It's a shame I can't locate any old illustrations. The earlies photos I found were in the early 1900s. Today it is all apartments and row homes.
So Pip has a room at the Pocket's house with two other boys, and he keeps his place with Herbert in London. What a contrast in character and demeanor are Drummle and Startop.
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Joan p
Trivia answer...
The name of Buster Broen's dog is Tige.
I gave the info on Sara Pocket in my post #217.
In my list of characters much is said of Drummle,-mostly negative. He is described as a coarse, unintelligent young man .
Drummle is hostile to Pip and everyone else. His family is wealthy and he expects to inherit to a title. I doubt he and Pip will be friends.
Startop is described as kind..He is said to have woman's taste in many ways.
He , Pip, and Herbert will get along.
Herbert will become fast friends with Pip or as he calls him, Handel.
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Thanks, Joan, for the correction on Startop's name. Very careless of me. Pip is put off by Drummle, but is drawn to Startop. Is it Startop's devotion to his mother that has caught Pip's imagination. An experience he never knew. In any case, here are two young men sent off to Mr Pocket for instructions in being gentlemen. Were they unbearable at home? Will the Pocket milieu straighten them out? They wouldn't seem to be a threat to the Pockets in the Havisham estate prospects. Sarah is a cousin to Mathew, housekeeping for Miss H, at Satis House.
Wemmick's Castle! What a contrast, and how proud he is of it. Living a double life:
'...the office is one thing, and private life is another. When I go into the office, I leave the Castle behind me, and when I come into the Castle, I leave the office behind me..
Oh, yeah. Then why is the time between nine and supper taken up by Wemmick proudly showing off his 'collection of curiosities':
'They were mostly of a felonious character; comprising the pen with which a celebrated forgery had been committed, a distinguished razor or two, some locks of hair, and several manuscript confessions written under condemnation - upon which Mr Wemmick set particular value as being, to use his own words, 'every one of 'em Lies, sir.'
Proved in court by Mr Jaggers to have been forgeries, no doubt. Isn't he awesome in court? Everyone is on trial in Jagger's courtroom. Even the Judge, as he gets a dressing down from Jaggers, as being a poor 'representative of British law and justice'. Pip sees the shaking knees under the desk.
Herbert, on Estella: 'That girl's hard and haughty and capricious to the last degree.' (p200) Will that, too, go into Pip's education?. A happy ending to this story may depend on it.
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Ah, good. Jude and Jonathan have safely pocketed Miss Sarah. ;)
Bentley Drummle, who was so sulky a fellow that he even took up a book as if its writer
had done him an injury, did not take up an acquaintance in a more agreeable spirit.
This pretty much settled Master Drummle in my mind.
I noted Pip is still sensitive to his own flaws, at least as observed by his maturer self.
but through good and evil I stuck to my books. There was no other merit in this, than my
having sense enough to feel my deficiencies.
I loved the Wemmick household, the aged parent, and all the little idioyncrasies. Did you notice
how 'rural' the area still was at that time?
At the back, there's a pig, and there are fowls and rabbits; then, I knock together my own little frame, you see, and grow cucumbers; and you'll judge at supper what sort of a salad I can raise.
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We seem to have differing responses to Mr. Jaggers: some of us like him - an "awesome lawyer" - but PatH stated good reasons to disliking him. Maybe he'd be less abrupt and irritable if he got a new chair, Pat.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illXX.gif)
What do you make of him? The people, his clients, regard him as their saviour - will pay anything for his time, for his attention. I couldn't help but compare the saviour's response to the Jew who had such faith in him, if he could get close to him, "if he could but kiss the hem of his garment". Jaggers wheels around - "Who is this man? I don't know this man. Let go of my coat. Get out of my way."
Can this possibly be the good guy we hope he will turn out to be? Is Dickens deliberately blurring his character to have him emerge as a "good guy" as the story develops...or is he providing enough reasons for us, and for Pip to beware of him?
When I hear of his position - "guardian" - I think more of a protector, someone who has an interest in the boy's well-being. And yet we are reminded more than once, that Mr. Jaggers regards the position as simply a business proposition between himself and his client - and no more.
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Good morning, Babi! Sarah is "pocketed," ... :D Both Sarah and Matthew Pocket are cousins of Miss Havisham, yes. Do you think Sarah and Matthew are cousins to one another? Or perhaps brother and sister? ..... Perhaps we will hear more of their relationship as the story progresses. Interesting that Miss H. has banned Matthew from the house, but Sarah is a member of her household. Herbert was even a candidate for Estella's hand...wasn't he fortunate that he didn't fall under her spell as Pip did? Does this indicate that Miss Havisham has forgiven Matthew for warning her against her fiance? Or is Miss Havisham still waiting for her groom to show up?
Fry, the description of Wemmick's home was a "hoot" - the rural visit was an enjoyable respite from dark and dismal London, as Babi pointed out.
Wemmick invited Pip into his home - this is a man who doesn't mix his personal and private life, as Fry and Jonathan describe him. He's moved their relationship to a personal level. I can't help but wonder why. We've seen him carrying out Jagger's instructions, he handles all personal interactions with Jaggers' clients, his position as Jagger's clerk is important to him. Jaggers is aware that Pip is visiting Wemmick's home and shortly after that Pip and his "friends" will be invited to Jaggers' home.
I really want to count him as Pip's friend - but sometimes I have to wonder why he is going out of his way to be close to Pip. Did you notice in his description - is he a young man?
Did you get the feeling Wemmick was sending Pip a warning, indirectly, when he described Jaggers: "he always seems he has set a mantrap and watching it and suddenly you're caught." Is Jaggers going to give Pip every opportunity to hang himself?
Jonathan, I wasn't "correcting" Startop's name - I thought your "Shortstop" was an apt description of this mama's boy.. :D
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Did you get the feeling Wemmick was sending Pip a warning, indirectly, when he described Jaggers: "he always seems he has set a mantrap and watching it and suddenly you're caught."
Look out for some of this in the next chapter. I accidentally read ahead one chapter.
Jaggars is good and he knows it. So does everyone else. I think at least some of his treatment of other people has to do with not having or wanting to take time with a lot of potential clients who have unwinnable or unprofitable cases. I doubt that he has much, if any experience with children or youngsters except for using them as runners or information gathers. Maybe he equates likability with softness and thinks of that as a weakness that will make him less effective in the courtroom. Note that, unlike Wemmick, he appears to take his work home with him. He can't or won't separate his personal life from his professional.
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If Jaggers is really bad or dishonest why would Pip's Benefactor entrust Pip's future to him?
Jaggers has also been entrusted with large sums of money to ensure Pip's education and welfare.
If you had decided to be a benefactor to a poor young boy with "expectations" wouldn't you make sure the person in
charge of this task was honest and intelligent?
I don't think a superficial niceness comes into the calculation.
A lawyer who is honest, clever, wealthy and a "nice guy" would be unbelleivable and Dickens always shows that EVERYONE
has flaws.
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I don't think Jaggers is dishonest in the sense that he would misuse money entrusted to him. He undoubtedly has a long track record of handling his clients' finances appropriately. Falsifying evidence is an intellectual or moral dishonesty.
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Pat and I are lawyers daughters. For us, anyone who would falsify evidence is totally unforgivable. Given his slimey treatment of his work, we can't really expect anything good from him.
Of course, we already know from Drood what Dickens thought of the legal system. he's probably reporting the system as he saw it. Such falsification of evidence might well have been accepted practice. (Although, given the eagerness of people to obtain Jaggars services, he was probably better at it than most.)
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Ages ago, my fencing tutor, who was a lawyer, told me that nice and lawyer was an oxymoron.
I thought Dickens was a little ambiguous about whether or not his people were out looking for actual witnesses or not. What I got out of one scene was that Jaggars wanted "witnesses" that looked and sounded credible enough to hold up in court, not necessarily someone who was telling the truth. It would have been a lot easier to find such people willing to purger themselves for money back then. I think back them the police had to rely mostly on forced confessions, witnesses (truthful or not), and gut feelings.
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A lawyer who is honest, clever, wealthy and a "nice guy" would be unbeleivable
..
;D Good line, JUDE!
Falsifying evidence is an intellectual or moral dishonesty.
Not to mention illegal, and would get any lawyer disbarred if proven. (And despite all the
cracks about lawyers, I'm sure your, and Joan's, father was a very fine man, PAT. )
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Maybe we should keep a list of the oxymorons, Fry ;) - starting with "nice lawyers."
"Jaggers is good and he knows it. So does everyone else."
I'm not quite so sure everyone knows it, Fry. How about the cases he loses - and he does lose some. I'm thinking of those two grotesque busts in his office...Wemmick describes them as sort of death masks - taken from two of Jaggers' famous clients after they were hung at Newgate.
Had a talk at the breakfast table with my husband - about this very thing, Babi. He is a retired lawyer - as are two of my sons. I asked about dishonest lawyers... He couldn't name a one - except in litigation, you always suspect the other lawyers, especially in criminal investigations. Not so much dishonesty as much as deviousness and evasion...counseling clients not to offer any more information than what is asked. I don't know - do we have to be clear what is meant by a dishonest lawyer.
I agree with PatH, Jude - Jaggers was doing the job he was paid to do. I don't look upon him as a dishonest lawyer...(depending on your definition of what that means.) Is Jaggers guilty of falsifying evidence, Babi? I think I missed that. Fry, do you see him looking for credible witnesses whose testimony would stand up in court - or do you see him looking for those who would be willing to purger themselves for money?
He's paying Pip as instructed by his client... I'm not sure what the client wanted Jaggers to do as his "guardian." Did he want him to look out for the boy's well-being in the big city. Does he want him to counsel Pip on the use of the money? If so, then I'd be concerned about the way he's opening the wallet for anything that Pip asks. Even Pip was uncomfortable that day he asked for money - felt that he would have given him any amount, "lying in wait, hand in his pocket."
"This strongly marked way of doing business made a strongly marked impression on me and that not of an agreeable kind." - Is Pip remembering Wemmick's description of his employer - "a man-trap"? Do you get the feeling that Jaggers is waiting for Pip to waste his fortune?
Maybe I'm wrong - what is your impression?
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Pat & Joan
Sorry if you felt hurt as we discuss lawyers. Most of my knowledge of lawyers is from the press and John Grisham.
My estate lawyer is a lovely woman as is her daughter, who is her partner.The Lawyers who worked for my professional organization were always extremely helpful and knowledgable. However they were on my side always, as they represented my profession. and not any annoyed clients..
I do know there are many, many different types of lawyers, most of whom never appear in court.
In England there are Barristers and Solicitors. I will check and see if those differences existed in Dicken's era.
However I still think that Jaggers represents Pip and is on his side even if he is not teaching him to use his money wisely. Pip, having been poor before, is probably spending money on clothes, food, liquor and things that seem to make life easier. However he says clearly that he also kept to his studies. What those studies were has not yet been made clear.
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No offense taken, Jude. :) Lawyers are pretty used to lawyer cracks and just laugh at them. My point was that I felt I recognized unethical behavior, and disapprove strongly because of my background.
A footnote in my book says that the distinction between solicitors and barristers did exist at that time, but the line was sometimes crossed, and indeed Jaggers, a solicitor, did seem to cross it.
A barrister has graduated from one of the Inns of Court, and is qualified to plead directly before the high courts. A solicitor has been trained in a lawyer's office, and prepares his cases, but has a barrister plead them in court. I'm not quite sure why Jaggers was in court bullying everyone, but the footnote says heavy caseloads led to the blurring of roles.
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Fry, do you see him looking for credible witnesses whose testimony would stand up in court - or do you see him looking for those who would be willing to purger themselves for money?
I'm not sure, JoanP. It could just as well be that Jaggars knows full well that those he sends out to find credible witnesses are just as likely to come back with someone who will testify to something they actually didn't see. Dickens is not clear. I suppose that his hireling would have been paid a small finders fee if the witness holds up. I am researching th role of witnesses and lawyers now and ran across this interesting website. http://vcp.e2bn.org/justice/section11333-witnesses-lawyers-and-juries.html It doesn't specifically answer my question, but does have some interesting history in its pages. Have a look. In the meantime, I continue my research.
PatH, thanks for answering Jude's question about solicitors and barristers. I was wonder the same thing too. It appears that Jaggars was both. From the link I gave above, it looks like Barristers (lawyers) were not necessarily in common use until a little later in the 19th century.
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Interesting point from Jude: 'However he (Pip) says clearly that he also kept to his studies. What those studies were has not yet been made clear.'
Someone wants to make a gentleman out of Pip, and it's Pip's own desire to be one. He's brought to London and put into the company of gentlemen, and supplied with money to support a gentleman's lifestyle. He has a lot to learn. As for his studies, this is what he tell us, in Chapter 25:
'...I settled down, and applied myself to my education. I soon contracted expensive habits, and began to spend an amount of money that within a few short months I should have thought almost fabulous; but through good and evil I stuck to my books. There was no other merit in this, than my having sense enough to feel my deficiencies. Between Mr Pocket and Herbert I got on fast.'
That sounds to me like he's starting to find a comfort level in the company he keeps. Perhaps Mr Jaggers is setting a trap as hinted at by Wemmick, but I doubt it. Jaggers must be following instructions he has received from his client. And with Pip an eventual propertied gentleman, Jaggers could be expected to be a proper 'guardian'. Jaggers would have a reputation to uphold. Of course everyone knows that some lawyers are disbarred for malpractice, with some even put behind bars, for criminal acts. Jaggers is very professional and would seem to act as both solicitor and barrister. That struck me as interesting.
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"...Pocket tells Pip he won't be prepared for any particular profession but educated enough to hold his own among average young men in prosperous circumstances..."
Is Dickens poking fun at the education of those young men- who don't do anything but live on titles or family fortune?
"That sounds to me like he's starting to find a comfort level in the company he keeps."
Well, yes, Jonathan, Pip gets along fine with Herbert Pocket and his father...but not so much with Dremmle - and to make matters even more uncomfortable for Pip, Mr. Pockets' sister and her husband turn up. Are they living in the Pocket home? And Georgina too - another Pocket cousin. Pip: "these people hated me with the hatred of cupidity and disappointment."
Will have to look up "cupidity" - when the Olympic swimmers are finished... :D Pip feels their hatred and ill-will, no matter what it means.
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...Almost forgot John Wemmick. Maybe he'll turn out to be the best friend Pip has in London. He seems to be making sure that Pip understands the situation - as much as he is free to do. I was a bit puzzled at what he told Pip about the law office clerks - only four of them. Is he counting Pip as one of them? Or did I not read that right? Who was the clerk, the "smelter" in the basement? What is he smelting - did you understand that?
In the morning we'll move on to the next installment, with Pip and his "pals" invited to dinner with Mr. Jaggers. I'm curious about why Jaggers has invited the three of them - he must have a motive. Pip seems annoyed that Jaggers refers to the other two as his "gang" - The dinner conversation should be entertaining...
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My comment on 'falsifying evidence' was in response to Pat's post, JOAN. But I did
definitely perceive Jaggers as hiring people who could convincingly be false witnesses.
As best I can tell, Jaggers has been instructed to turn Pip into a 'young gentleman' and
to supply him with the funds to live as one. Jaggers makes it plain he does what he
contracts to do, and no more.
I am assuming that Pip's studies were those that were expected in young gentlemen of
the day. I found this rather neat summary:
EDUCATION
Education in nineteenth-century England was not equal - not between the sexes, and not
between the classes. Gentlemen would be educated at home by a governess or tutor until
they were old enough to attend Eton, Harrow, Rugby, Winchester, Westminster, Charterhouse,
or a small handful of lesser schools. The curriculum was heavily weighted towards the
classics - the languages and literature of Ancient Greece and Rome. After that, they would
attend Oxford or Cambridge. Here they might also study mathematics, law, philosophy, and
modern history. Oxford tended to produce more Members of Parliament and government
officials, while Cambridge leaned more towards the sciences and produced more acclaimed
scholars. However, it was not compulsory, either legally or socially, for a gentleman to
attend school at all. He could, just as easily, be taught entirely at home.
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We're moving on to the next section today, Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII), but can continue to talk about anything in the previous chapters.
JoanP asks a good question: Why has Jaggers has invited Pip and his "gang."
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Who was the clerk, the "smelter" in the basement? What is he smelting - did you understand that?
The "smelter...who would melt me anything I pleased" isn't a clerk. My book explains him well in a footnote:
Wemmick is showing off a receiver of stolen goods who "in the esoteric language peculiar to [Dickens's] criminals" converts the thieves' haul of silver or gold cups, spoons, and the like into liquid assets. Perhaps more generally, Wemmick's way of saying that the metaphorical smelter...could be trusted to follow the lawyer's instructions in manipulating his "evidence."
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PatH, my edition has the same footnote. I wouldn't have figured it out myself.
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Babi - after reading your article on nineteenth century education, I started wondering what will be next for Pip - once Mr. Pocket has taught him all he knows. What sort of a life is he being prepared for? What will he do with this fancy education? Is it pointless to educate the boy, any boy and not provide him a way to use it? Do you think this will turn out to be Dickens' point?
Thanks for the description of the smelter, PatH - I suspect then that Wemmick was telling Pip that Jaggers doesn't hire clerks to do legal work - he does that sort of thing himself... Instead he hires the smelter.
I looked up cupidity - one of those words I can never remember. It means "avarice" or "greed" - so the Pocket/Havisham cousins look upon Pip with greed and disappointment - he's a threat to their share in the Havisham fortune? What happens if he does not succeed - if he squanders the money left for his education? What effect would that have on them?
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An interesting question, Marcie - when I read about the little dinner party, for Pip's "gang" I remember being really surprised to hear Mr. Jaggers say that he "liked" Bentley Drummle. He even toasts him. What is there to like about him? Pip is dismayed. I don't remember Jaggers' warning about Drummle, though... I'll have to reread that chapter again. Each time I reread, I notice more...
One thing I do remember - Drummle is to leave the Pockets' home in about a month. His education is complete.
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JoanP asked while back:
Did you get the feeling Wemmick was sending Pip a warning, indirectly, when he described Jaggers: "he always seems he has set a mantrap and watching it and suddenly you're caught."
This is exactly what I think Jaggars is doing with Drummle. But is he baiting Drummle or trying for a reaction from Pip? I have the feeling that he expects to see Drummle in some kind of legal mess sometime in the future that he can turn to his advantage.
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Jaggers baiting of the boys seems odd. I am unsure what he's trying to accomplish. I have the same question as you, Frybabe. Is he baiting Drummle or trying for a reaction from Pip?
That's an interesting question, JoanP, about education. We know that Dickens had strong feelings about the state of education for young men. Is there a next step for Pip, after Mr. Pocket?
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Do you get the idea that Pip is to continue on with Matthew Pocket until he comes of age - turns 21 - and then he will come into an estate?
I'm seeing a different Jaggers altogether, now that he's invited the boys into his home for dinner. Either he has a personal interest in Pip and wants to get to know his friends - or he has further instruction from his client, Pip's benefactor. It seems to me that the latter must be the case. How do you see his purpose?
Not only does Jaggers show surprising interest in Bently Drummle at this dinner party, but Dickens seems to be focusing more - more than necessary - on Jaggers himself. The details of his home, his scented soap - even his housekeeper. Wemmick told Pip to pay attention to her...called her "a wild beast tamed." He didn't have to tell Pip that - Jagger's forced everyone's attention to her - her hands, her wrists, the scars. There's a story there. Do you think she'd been tied up? That was a strange little dinner party - with unforgetable details... I'm looking at Jaggers as more than just a barrister/soliciter, carrying out his clients' wishes. He's become a person of interest...
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Sadly, JOAN, it seems that the whole point of being a 'gentleman' is that one did not
have to do anything useful. One was a man of leisure; only the vulgar 'worked'. For those
who wanted a more active role there were interests and hobbies to pursue. Horses, or
agricultural innovations, or building. I believe a good many of the explorers and
archaeologist of this period were gentlemen of wealth, who could afford their expensive
hobby.
Ah, the 'smelter' is explained. This does seem to confirm that Jaggers is not at all
ethical in pursuing his cases. He is out to win. I can understand his 'liking' Drummle.
I think FRYBABE has a point. Jaggers would be quite familiar with this type of man;
contemptuous, violent, arrogant. Certain trouble pending. As for his motives in baiting
the two young men, I think both could equally apply.
I was also struck by the emphasis on the housekeeper, JOAN. She is bound to have a
significant role somewhere in this story. I find myself wondering why she puts up with
Jaggers treatment of her.
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I am wondering if Jaggers saved the housekeeper from prison. Are those handcuff scars on her wrist?
His benefactor has said that Pip is to be educated before he comes into his fortune. Maybe that will be before he is 21. When did the age of 21 begin to mean "adult"?
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When did the age of 21 begin to mean "adult"?
It must have already meant that in Dickens' time. In Bleak House, as soon as Ada turns 21 she is able to marry Richard Carstone secretly without her guardian's consent.
Jaggers' dinner party is really something, isn't it. He's looking at his guests like specimens on pins, prodding them to see how they will react, digging out their worst sides. He's got a cruel streak, too. Look at how he forces his housekeeper Molly to show her scarred wrist, even though she begs him not to. There's probably quite a story there, and I'm sure we'll learn it.
Jaggers likes Drummle--"He is one of the true sort". What does that mean? Nothing good, since in the same breath he warns Pip to have nothing to do with him--keep clear of him.
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There certainly some things about Jaggars that we don't know yet -- with his strange treatment of Drummle and the housekeeper. Another mystery to keep us busy.
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In chapter XI we meet up again with Trabb's boy. He has no other name.
I had forgotten who he was and so I googled him and I was shocked to see that I was one of 60,700 people who had done that.
There are essays galore and all sorts of opinions. However I will just present the "tip of the ice-berg" explanation.
Trabb's boy,the tailor's son, is a bully and rebel. He likes to make fun of Pip. He is somewhat the town joker or barometer,
acting out what everyone is thinking.
Although Pip dismisses his encounter with Trabb's boy he can't help but be a little shaken by the idea that he is known in his hometown as haughty.
One other issue interested me. Dicken's goes along telling us a narrative about his cast of characters. Then, all of a sudden, we have a "chapter X" moment, when the author goes into a deep analysis of the inner psychology of these people.
Example: "As Estella looked back over her shoulder......Miss Havisham kissed that hand to her, with a ravenous intensity that was of a kind quite dreadful."
Example: "You must know, said Estella ,codescending to meas a brilliant and beautiful woman might,' that I have no heart
- if that has anything to do with my memory'.
It is moments like these that turn the book from a children's story into a psychological novel for adults.
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PatH, you are right, of course. I had forgotten in Bleak House about Ada's reaching age 21 and coming into her inheritance then and marrying Richard.
I am thinking that "He's one of the true sort" has something to do with Drummle's negative tendencies... as if he was a "born" criminal. As JoanP says, we'll likely find out Jaggers intentions re Drummle in later chapters.
JudeS, yes, Dickens does sometimes delve into the psyches of his characters. Jaggers is someone who has taught himself to read people extremely well.
Pip says of the dinner at Jaggers' house: "Dinner went off gaily, and, although my guardian seemed to follow rather than originate subjects, I knew that he wrenched the weakest part of our dispositions out of us. For myself, I found that I was expressing my tendency to lavish expenditure, and to patronize Herbert, and to boast of my great prospects, before I quite knew that I had opened my lips. It was so with all of us, but with no one more than Drummle: the development of whose inclination to gird in a grudging and suspicious way at the rest, was screwed out of him before the fish was taken off."
Jude, There have been several instances of Miss Havisham looking at Estella in a "ravenous" way. It's disgusting to Pip.
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I wondered about the word "gird" here. I think of it in connection of preparing for action--gird up one's loins--but I finally looked it up and found that it has another meaning, somewhat archaic, to make cutting or critical remarks.
I think you're right, Marcie, Jaggers sees Drummle as a prime example of a type.
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So Pip's guardian shows more interest in Bentley Dremmle than he does to Pip, to Pip's dismay. There seems to be no explanation for this - unless he's doing this just to get Pip's attention.
Poor miserable Dremmle..."the blotchy, sprawly, sulky fellow." - not one positive trait does Dickens give him, which makes Jaggers' admiration for him all more puzzling to Pip. I would agree that Jaggers' plan was to warn Pip about him, PatH, but noticed that the warning did not come until Pip went back into the house, after Jaggers had already washed his hands of them. He hadn't planned to give Pip a warning at all! Didn't tell Pip to keep as clear of him as possible - until Pip returned unexpectedly. Dremmle had left, and still Jaggers repeats his admiration for him to Pip. This has to have been for Pip's benefit, don't you think? "He is one of the true sort. Why, if I was a fortune teller..." What does he see in that crystal ball of his?
Do you think Jaggers really does admire Bentley Dremmle? His type?
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MARCIE, just reading your post I got my first glimpse of why Jaggers' held these dinners.
Ply the guests with wine, and learn more about them than they ever intended to reveal. I
have a really bad feeling about Drummle. He is sure to be the cause of much grief somewhere
along the way.
And JOAN, your phrase, "after Jaggers had washed his hands of them", really struck me.
Like Pilate, I believe that is exactly what all his hand-washing was about, whether he
realized it or not. It's a way, psychologically, of distancing himself from all the ugly
things in his way of life.
I can't quite see Jaggers 'admiring' Drummle in the way we think of the word. I think
it is used in the sense in which we recognize something extreme or perfectly representative
of a type. Dont's we tend to stare at the 'biggest', the 'tallest', the 'ugliest', the
most costly?
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PatH, thanks for another meaning of "gird." "To make cutting or critical remarks" seems to fit Drummle.
JoanP and Babi, The washing of the hands is quite an interesting characteristic for Dickens to give Jaggers. Pip can recognize Jaggers coming into a room through the smell of his soap.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
JULY and August Book Club Online.
GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexfirsteditioncover2.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatextitlepage.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexanniversarycover.jpg)
Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012
Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.
"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illXXXIV.gif) | Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1
July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX
VOLUME 2
July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI (XX - XXV)
July 29-August 4 ~ Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII)
August 5-11 ~ Chapters XIV-XX (XXXIII - XXXIX)
VOLUME 3
August 12-18 ~ Chapters I-VII (XL-XLVI)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illXXXVII.gif) |
Chapter XIV (XXXIII)
1. Do you find a comment that seems to be the centre of this chapter? Which one is it? And why?
2. Pip has another one of those sudden flares of light that touched a hidden memory. What do you think may have triggered it?
Chapter XV (XXXIV)
1. What further burden to his conscience now troubles Pip?
2. What was the 'gay fiction' of the two friends, Pip and Herbert? Have you had, or observed, similar situations?
3. What do you think of Pip and Herbert's method of "looking into our affairs"?
Chapter XVI (XXXV)
1. How did Pip cope with his sister's death?
2. Has Pip's behavior toward Biddy changed? What is your reaction to each of them from their conversation together?
Chapter XVII (XXXVI)
1. Can you suggest a reason why answering Pip's questions about his benefactor could compromise Jaggers?
2. What is the first thing Pip did with his new income? What does this say to us about him?
Chapter XVIII (XXXVII)
1. Wemmick has two personas. How does he keep them separate? What does his say to us about him?
2. What explanation does Wemmick give for his decision to assist Pip in his giving away of 'portable property'?
3. What is your impression of Miss Skiffins?
Chapter XIX (XXXVIII)
1. What new development emerges in Miss Havisham's plans for Estella?
2. How does Pip explain Estella's attitude to support his own delusion?
3. What is the basis of the quarrel between Miss Havisham and Estella? What is Estella's position. How does she explain it?
Chapter XX (XXXIX)
1. The day of revelation has arrived. What hopes and dreams , what 'great expectations', does Pip's benefactor hold towards him? What is Pip's reaction to the news?
2. Why, do you think, did Pip's benefactor make this a life's goal?
3. What great risk is the benefactor taking?
Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1400/1400-h/1400-h.htm#2HCH0001); Dickens and Victorian Education (http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/schools-and-education/victorian-education.html); Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dickens/ge/huangcd.html); The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/bazalgette_joseph.shtml); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/cross13.htm) |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Babi, I hadn't thought of Pontius Pilate, washing his hands after each of his legal dealings that he doesn't feel good about. Did hand-washing ease Pilate's conscience? But why would he be feeling the need to wash up after an innocent, social evening with the four young lads? Do you suppose it wasn't really innocent - but rather an evening that he wished he didn't have to do? I can't tell if he is acting against Pip's best interests...
I was going to ask why the emphasis on scented soap? He keeps this same scented soap in his office, at home, when visiting Miss Havisham's... Marcie, do you think the scent is an important signal that he is not responsible to all in his presence for the results of his actions...innocent, just doing his job? He used the soap when the boys had left for the evening. Maybe the scent is a signal to himself? I bet we will be sniffing that soap in the chapters to come. I'll bet Jude will have an observation on this seemingly compulsive disorder...
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I must agree with Babi. Jaggars is admiring perfect or near perfect example of a classic type that he recognizes in Drummle.
Jaggars, with his scented soap, is at the least a very fastidious person (like Poirot?). He may, as JoanP suggests, even be showing the manifestations of OCD. I'm not sure about the scented soap as opposed to nonscented, but I imagine that anyone who could afford lots of perfume and scented soaps used them to reduce the smell of foul odors from the generally poor sanitation and poor personal hygiene still fairly widespread at the time.
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I had assumed that Jaggers had given the dinner party merely because he would be expected to entertain his ward, but you're right, Babi, he also wanted to pry information out of his guests. He couldn't have planned ahead to warn Pip about Drummle, since he had never met him, didn't know what he was like until he saw him.
I wonder if highly scented soap would have been considered affected for a man.
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Does Jaggers have OCD?
This disorder has two components. They do not always come together in each individual. That is one may have Obsessions or Compulsions or both.
An obsession is a persistent thought and is ego dystonic. This refers to the fact that the thoughts are alien but the person believes that he has no control over them.
A compulsion is a repetitive behavior whose goal is to reduce or alleviate stress or anxiety.
Washing hands is one example of a compulsion. By definition compulsions are clearly excessive and are not truly necessary.
Remember when Dickens was writing, these disorders had not been codified and not explained to the general public.
Dickens is telling us (I think) that keeping up his facade of constant vigilance produces in Jaggers a great deal of anxiety. The washing of his hands with perrfumed soap symbolically washes away some of his anxiety. However the relief is momentary and so he takes his soap with him. No Vallium or other tranquilizers in those days.
No doubt Dickens had observed this type of behavior in someone under a great deal of outer(or inner) pressure.
We are going to Portland Oregon for a week tomorrow. Will join you again upon our return.
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Bon voyage, Jude. We will impatiently await your return. You're absolutely crucial to this discussion, as the plot thickens and the characters turn murky.
The more I read about Jaggers, the more I appreciate him as a genuine Dickens character. More than meets the eye, but easy to follow the scent. He doesn't want to get his hands dirty. He wants to cover the smell. He has the sorriest law practice imaginable. His clients are the untouchables of the London slums. Just as his clerk, Wemmick, retreats to his Castle to get away from it all, so Jaggers is constantly cleaning himself up, washing away the unpleasantries of his practice.
It seems to me that Jaggers would delight in having dinner with four young gentlemen, as welcome as a breath of fresh air. No doubt he brings them together so that he can observe Pip's behaviour. He is, after all, responsible for Pip's progress in becoming a gentleman, with Pip's patron presumably expecting a progress report. Jaggers certainly draws them out, with Pip feeling he has confessed all. I cannot see that Jaggers admires Drummle. There is more of assessment than admiration in Jaggers' observation. He sees trouble...or more business in the way of lawsuits.
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There is a good reason why Paris became the perfume capital of the world. Medieval Paris was the stinkiest place in the world, so, to improve it's image....
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Good points about the scented soap covering up the bad smells of the city and the people and prisons that are part of Jaggers' environment. Dickens does focus on specific attributes to give life to some of his characters... the hand washing and the finger biting for Jaggers.
In the next chapter we see Joe again. How do you feel about his meeting with Pip? What do you think Joe understands about Pip's responses to him?
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Ah, good point, FRYBABE. It's easy to forget about the prevailing odors of London.
The upper classes carried scented handkerchiefs to shut out as much of it as possible.
I can see where scented soaps, perfumes, and the like would be widely used. JUDE also
points out the stress of Jaggers' work and the likelihood that the constant washing is a
compulsive response. Then Jonathan points out that Jaggers would be expectd to report to
his client on Pip's progress. All in all, I think our readers have a good grasp of Jaggers'
character.
How does Pip get even with Orlick?
Pip takes action to get Orlick discharged
from his job with Miss Havisham. I think this may have been a serious mistake. I understand
his concerns, but Orlick must know Pip is responsible and he is bound to resent it deeply. I
fear Pip will be dealing with repercussions from his decision on down the road.
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Pip takes action to get Orlick discharged from his job with Miss Havisham. I think this may have been a serious mistake. I understand
his concerns, but Orlick must know Pip is responsible and he is bound to resent it deeply. I
fear Pip will be dealing with repercussions from his decision on down the road.
I fear so too. Pip is partly motivated by revenge, but might feel he had to do this anyway. He knows Orlick is violent, suspects he is Mrs. Joe's attacker; it's hardly safe for him to be the "protector" of a helpless old woman.
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Another example of Pip's character split - split personality? He's outraged that dangerous Orlick is working at the home of the helpless Miss Havisham - so outraged that he reports to Mr. Jaggers, resulting in his dismissal from Satis House. BUT - he was not at all concerned when the dangerous man worked in the forge and spent time in the kitchen with his helpless sister. Maybe Pip thought Joe would protect her. Still...
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These last few chapters seem to center around or include dinners.
I don't like the way Pip treats his former friends and family while on his visit to Satis House. He doesn't take "the Avenger" with him for fear the fellow will discover his humble beginnings or gossip about his life in London. He writes a nasty letter to the tailor about the encounters with the Trabb boy. The Trabb boy doesn't seem very smart to me, but then didn't Pip bring on some of the ribbing with his pretentious and snobbish attitude toward his former acquaintances. Was he afraid that his humble previous life would follow him back to London and put him up for ridicule? Who is he trying to impress anyway? Ms. H, Estella, Jaggars, Herbert and the Pockets already know about his good fortune. Jaggars was clear on the point of class seperation wasn't he? To become a gentleman Pip is expected to cast off old friends and acquire new higher class friends. His lower class friends and family were to be treated as such or ignored entirely.
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Chapter VIII (XXVII) was really painful to read. I could hardly stand to see Pip treat Joe so shabbily. Joe is uncomfortable, intimidated by the gentlemanly surroundings, knows he is out of place, but Pip could have made things better by showing some of his old love and comradeship. Joe sees the situation clearly, and sums it up with touching dignity.
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Pip seems to realize that he's completely overpowered by his feelings for Estella but he can't change. He can summon good intentions toward Joe.... for an instant... but then his view of himself through Estella's eyes makes him turn his back on Joe. It is painful to read that. Miss Havisham has already been successful in bringing Pip down, through Estella. He's not the sensitive and essentially good boy he was when he gave the prisoner food. He has been changed by Estella. I'm wondering how much he would have changed even without his "great expectations" since he's had the same feelings for Estella almost from the beginning of his "play" time with her.
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Pip's behavior on his trip home was pretty bad, FRYBABE. I think he was most upset with
Trapp's boy because he has become accustomed to being greeted and treated respectfully.
He is probably still insecure in his new role and got very upset to be treated in the old
way.
It's true, MARCIE, that Pip's feelings for Estella were the same before his good(?)
fortune. But he knew quite well they were hopeless and could only pine from afar. His
experience with Havisham house did some harm in making him unhappy with his lot, but he
would have learned to live with it from sheer necessity. It was the belief that he could
obtain his dream through his new expectations that led him to turn his back on those who
cared most for him.
What really set my teeth on edge is learning that Bumblechook(?) has the entire village
believing he is Pip's great friend, childhood mentor and suporter, source of all his
good fortune, etc., etc. I would love, just once, to see that self-seeking old fraud
exposed for what he really is.
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Babi, yes his great expectations has given Pip the impetus to gravitate toward Estella and away from Joe and Biddy. His strong belief that Miss Havisham is his benefactor, though he's been told not to speculate, motivates him even more.
I agree about Pumblechook. What a fraud! Dickens is great at creating that type of character.
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In London, Joe tells Pip that the only way seeing each other could work is if Pip would come to the forge, see Joe in his own place, where he fits in, is "right". So here is Pip's perfect chance--surprise Joe at the forge, talk on the old terms. He keeps weakly shying away from this. First, he'll stay at the Blue Boar because he isn't expected. Then, he arrives after dark, too late to visit. The next day, Estella delivers the death-blow: "...what was fit company for you once, would be very unfit company for you now." Pip sneaks back to London without visiting Joe, and salves his conscience by sending a barrel of oysters. (A footnote says that wasn't a particularly expensive gift.)
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Pip is trying so hard to play his new role as gentleman. And is laughed at for his trouble by some, like the Trabb's boy. And Drummle? Pip, playing the gentleman, is laughed at by some just as Wopsle, playing Hamlet, is laughed at by some in the theater. What a performance. No doubt both will eventually feel comfortable in their roles.
But it may just be that Pip's self-examination will never cease. With the endless explanations. Here's a good one, from that painful Chapter VIII:
'So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise.'
This follows his earlier statement, in which he prepared to justify his deplorable treatment of Joe:
'Let me confess exactly, with what feelings I looked forward to Joe's coming.'
We know that Joe is an embarrassment for Pip, when seen through Estella's eyes. But he is not going to blame her, the light of his life, for his mean, ungentlemanly behavior with Joe. He finds another source for his conduct:
'...I had the sharpest sensitiveness as to his (Joe's) being seen by Drummle, whom I held in contempt.'
Here's a good one on looks: Estella,'Proud and wilful as of old, she had brought those qualities into such subjection to her beauty that it was impossible and out of nature - or I thought so - to seperate them from her beauty.'
And how about this new light on Mr Jaggers: 'He kept his very looks to himself.'
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"CHARLES Dickens was a control freak who displayed many of the symptoms of mild obsessive compulsive disorder, a new biography of the writer says. "
A novel look at obsessive Charles Dickens (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/arts/books/a-novel-look-at-obsessive-charles-dickens/story-e6frg8nf-1225772468366)
Jude made an interesting observation the other day about a possible obsessive/compulsive disorder in Mr. Jaggers. Turns out the same can be said of a number of his characters. Turns out too, that many also thought Dickens had the same obsessive compulsive disorder. What do you think? Was Jaggers attempting to get control of the part of his life that he abhorred?
Would it be too much of a stretch to say that Pip is obsessed with Estella? Do you see any hope for him in the future?
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"throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise."
Jonathan, I was just going to say that I don't like Pip much - he lacks character and integrity. But then I read something like this - Dickens seems to be condemning all of us with the same faults that Pip is exhibiting. Is he, after all, as weak as every one of us?
Did you notice that Pip becomes impatient with Joe - for calling him, Mr. Pip? Why does this annoy Pip? Is it because he knows deep down, that he has done nothing to deserve this honorable address?
What of Joe - and Biddy? Are these two characters faultless in Dickens' eyes? Is Dickens saying that they escaped the same weaknesses and meannesses - simply because they are poor - and humble?
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Pat, yes, I was struck by the fact that Pip doesn't visit Joe (sends the oysters instead) but after Wopsle is laughed at during his theater performance and Pip and Pocket visit him in his tiny dressing room, Pip feels sorry for Wopsle and invites him to dinner at their apartment. I wish his sensitivity would have been awakened to Joe.
Jonathan, those are such good excerpts to show how well Dickens captures human frailties and other qualities.
JoanP, I don't recall reading about any character faults in Joe or Biddy but I don't get the impression that is because they are poor but likely because they are both humble and careful of the feelings of others. I don't see either of them treating Pip or anyone else with disdain if they were to be given great expectations.
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I just re-read the section with Wopsle's performance and the reaction of the audience to the actors. Dickens must have seen some less than stellar performances of Shakespeare to come up with all of those parodies of various scenes. I was laughing out loud at some of them.
I also was struck by Herbert Pocket's trying to dissuade Pip from what he sees as a bad alliance with Estella. Pip seems to agree that it can't go well but he confesses that he can't even try to stop himself.
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I think it entirely reasonable to say Pip is obseesed with Estella, JOANP. What else
could it be called, considering that he fully recognizes her pride, haughtiness and
indifference to his happiness. Any hope for him? I really don't know. I simply don't
know enough about obsessive behavior.
I think any of us, in certain circumstances, could be quilty of some mean or petty
action. We might immediately be ashamed of it, but that doesn't change anything. If
someone is greatly upset and angry, they don't usually stop and think before lashing out.
Pip's more shameful behavior can be traced to his fear of losing status in Estella's eyes or
his anger at Drummle's contemptuous behavior toward him. Where his new role of gentleman
is concerned, he is most insecure and anxious, imo.
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It's interesting that Pip feels no embarrassment at entertaining Wopsle. This is probably because although Wopsle is an old acquaintance, he isn't closely connected to Pip, so his character doesn't reflect on Pip, can't be considered part of Pip.
Herbert, not having fallen for Estella, sees her clearly. His warning is thoughtful: look at Miss Havisham, consider what she's like, and that she has raised Estella.
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Babi, yes I agree. Pip is obsessed with Estella. Even before Pip confesses his love of Estella, Herbert knows that almost all of Pip's waking (and sleeping) thoughts are of her.
PatH, I'm wondering if Dickens wants us to remember Pip's kind nature in his invitation Wopsle to dine with him and Herbert. It seems a little inconsistent of his shunning of Joe and others in his town to actually invite him to dinner. Probably Wopsle is considered by Pip to be at a higher level in society than Joe since he has his presumed thespian talents.
Herbert knows that Pip doesn't want to hear it, but he does try to warn Pip about Estella. As you say, Pat, he tells him to consider what Miss Havisham is like and her hold on Estella.
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"Pip is obsessed with Estella. Even before Pip confesses his love of Estella, Herbert knows."
Poor Pip. Poor Dickens. I can almost feel his remembered pain and frustration as he pours himself into Pip's character. Ths saddest part is Pip's acknowledgement that "he did not invest her with any attributes, save those she possessed - a pretty face. He loved her simply because he found her irresistable - loved her against reason, against promise, hope, happiness."
What kind of a future would Pip have with a woman like this? He knows what to expect, yet he seems unable to break the spell she has over him.
Just as Miss Havisham has taught Estella all that she knows and expects from love, she is instructing Pip in the same way. "Real love is blind devotion," she tells him - humiliation, utter submission, giving up heart and soul. And Pip believes her!
To be fair to him, he seems to experience bouts of reality - feelings for Joe. I think he really does intend to go to see him, but each time he is distracted by Estella and what she thinks of him. His plans never materialize. He can't seem to fit Joe in with his new life.
I can't help but wonder what a different story this would be if Pip had no "expectations...if he had laid eyes on Estella when he was a boy at Satis House, but had no other future except at the forge with Joe - and Biddy. It's the promise of becoming a gentleman that has made all the difference, isn't it?
Marcie - I thought it was funny too that Pip sent Joe the barrel of oysters when he returned to London...they must have been plentiful on the marshes where Joe lived. Actually, I don't know where oysters dwell, but surely near where Joe lives... What was Joe's reaction when he received them - and realized that Pip must have left for London and sent him the oysters instead of coming out to the forge. Gee, he didn't even stop in to see his sister...
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Joan, I could see Pip not stopping to see his sister. She might not even recognize him and I don't think that he is very attached to her. She raised him by a very quick, hard hand. But he truly seems to love Joe. His responses to Estella are as if she is a drug to which he is addicted.
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"But he truly seems to love Joe."
Marcie, I agree that Pip was detached from his sister - but now you have me thinking about his feelings for Joe. Joe has always been there, as long as Pip can remember. Wasn't he described earlier more as a playmate? He tells Joe that Pumblechook is not telling the truth - that it was Joe who brought him up from the time he was a baby. There seems to be a gradual realization of his feelings for Joe - but I'm not sure that he feels "love" for Joe. I'm not sensing that Pip knew what if felt like to love anyone - before he laid eyes on Estella - and concluded that his attraction to her beauty must be love.
Maybe it wasn't even Estella's beauty that mesmorized Pip - maybe it was the fact that she was unattainable - that he was not good enough. And now he is on the road to becoming rich enough...looking and sounding like the gentleman - certain that she is destined to become his wife...but realizing this will be a loveless relationship - unless he can find a way to melt her heart. What a hopeless situation! I don't think that Pip believes he will be able to do this What do you think is Dickens' message here?
I can't decide if he intended this to be a romance or a tragedy, can you? There seems to be no solution that will provide a happy ending. I understand that Dickens wrote two endings to the story - indicating that he was of two minds about how to end it. Can you see Pip melting Estella's heart - and living on, happily ever after with her in Satis House? Or do you see him coming to his senses, facing reality - and returning to the forge to live a simple happy life with Biddy and Joe? At this point in the story, how do you foresee the ending?
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I have to wonder through all of this whether Pip was experiencing true love or was in the grips of a long standing crush.
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I agree, Fry...except for the fact that a crush doesn't last this long in my mind- how many years has it been? A crush you get over in time. You outgrow it. A "long-standing crush" has to be called an obsession. How do you get past an obsession?
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"It's the promise of becoming a gentleman that has made all the difference, isn't it?"
Not quite. Before he received that promise, he had already become dissatisfied with himself and his surroundings. I don't think he would have ever been the same again. He would have stayed where he was, but been bitter, or found a way to leave to an uncertain future.
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To go back a ways, someone called Jaggars dinner party "innocent". I disagree: I found it very sinister! Clearly, Jaggars is up to something, and he makes my spine crawl.
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Two endings? To this tragic romance? Or this romantic tragedy? Imagine being instructed in love by Miss Havisham!
It started with the crush. After that came the obsession, the infatuation, the addiction. Pip is spell-bound. No man lives on happily for ever-after, after that. Pip loves Estella as she is. Melting her heart is risky. The haughtiness, the severity draw him to her. Not like the pins and needles in his sister's bib, which prevented him from getting close to her. Doesn't Dickens find all the emotional and psychological nooks and crannies our human nature. You are finding them all in your posts.
From Babi: 'I would love, just once, to see that self-seeking old fraud (Pumblechook) exposed for what he really is.'
And the answer from Marcie: 'What a fraud! Dickens is great at creating that type of character.'
Who is honest in this amazing tale? Is Pip being honest with himself? He seems to see what is happening to him. Where his ambition is taking him. What his love is doing to him.
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JoanP, you make a good point asking if Pip realizes what love is. He's had a difficult emotional life. His parents died when he was an infant. His older sister raised him by hand...as Jonathan says, the pins and needles in her bib preventing him from getting close to her. He has seemed to have been close to Joe but now I too am wondering if he truly felt loved by Joe and felt moved to love Joe.
JoanK, I agree that once he came under the spell of Miss Havisham and Estella he was dissatisfied with his life.
I don't know how Estella could change after being raised by the fanatical Miss Havisham with only one purpose in mind...to get revenge on all men. Let's see if there are any cracks in her armour in the next chapters.
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We're moving into a new section this morning. We find Estella greatly amused by the idea
that the greedy relatives could harm Pip's 'expectations'. Pip feels that her laughter is
immoderate, but he couldn't think why. "I thought there must really be something more than
I knew." He skirts all around the truth, but is so firmly convinced of his false misconception
that he can never adjust his thinking. And really, to be fair, what other possible source for this
windfall could there be in Pip's mind?
I don't know how Estella could change after being raised by the fanatical Miss Havisham with only one purpose in mind...
I suppose such a change could be possible, MARCIE,
and I would love to see it, but we all know how deep-rooted the earliest impressions are. It would
take something pretty drastic to change Estella now.
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A quick question before moving leaving Satis House - and on to Richmond with Estella. On more than one occasion Dickens describes Sarah Pocket in terms of "green and yellow." What does this mean to you? Pat, does your Norton mention this? My guess is that these colors refer to her aging complexion...but green? Pip refers to her as "Miss Pocket." Do you think she is Matthew's sister? Herbert's aunt? We know only for sure that she is a cousin of Miss Havisham.
There's another description using green and yellow coming up in the next chapters.
JoanK, don't you wonder about Mr. Jaggers' appearance at Satis House - usually when Pip is there? Do you think it's odd - or does it make perfect sense since he is Miss Havisham's solicitor. He scares me too. I think he's another one without a heart.
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"I don't recall reading about any character faults in Joe or Biddy." Marcie
The narrator seems to be an older, wiser Pip. In looking back at his callous behaviour, he sees Joe and Biddy totally blameless, undeserving of how he treated them.
I wonder if you see Pip's character developing as he grows older. At the start, he's a lonely, unloved boy, sitting in the graveyard, studying his parents' tombstone. Joe is a friend, a playmate, who made life with Pip's sister bearable. Biddy? I don't see a love story there. She was a school friend, willing to share her knowledge with Pip. She comes to live at the forge after the attack - willing to listen to Pip's dreams of the future. But I don't see a love interest here - at least on Pip's side. Biddy may have other hopes.
Pip is a young boy when he lays eyes on Estella. He thinks her beauty irresistable - is this love? Pip thinks so.
Every once in a while there's a hint that Pip recognizes Joe's admirable qualities and seems to want to make things right with him. When he heard that Pumblechook was claiming to have helped Pip when a little child, he recognizes that it was Joe who was there for him, not Pumble. Babi - I remember how strongly you felt about Skimpole in Bleak House. The same sort of visceral reaction!
What I'm seeing is a developing awareness of what true love is - not the maxims taught to him by the jaded Miss Havisham. How could he possibly think that this obviously demented woman knew anything about life - and love? I know, I know - she's promising him Estella. An irresistable reason to obey her.
But he's also seeing more of Estella's faults now...but still, that face...
Babi - the next chapters will tell the story - whether Pip's obvious love for Estella will melt her heart. Isn't it too much to think that DIckens would create a believable character -without any heart at all? Even in fairy tales, the ogre has a heart.
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Quote from JoanP: 'Jaggers scares me too. I think he's another one without a heart.'
And JoanK finds him sinister!
Pip, with Jaggers hovering over him in his office is reminded of the convict hovering over him after setting him on the tombstone years ago.
Herbert feels guilty in his presence.
And Jaggers? He feels contaminated in everyone's company! He knows it's a heartless world.
So, it's very encouraging to hear that the tale is a search for true love. I like to think we'll find it. With dear hearts all around.
How could Pip possibly have any romantic interest in Biddy? But she has always been a wonderful confidante. And a wise counsellor. She did have him convinced that life in the village, and life as a blacksmith, were pleasant enough, until Jaggers came along with his news of great expectations.
Interesting thing with the colors and Sarah Pocket. Perhaps she's showing her age. Green and yellow. Traditionally, they convey the impression of envy and prejudice, respectively. Sometimes I wonder if Dickens had a heart. Certainly not for the characters he didn't like.
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During Pip's early struggles to try to forget about Estella (which he could never do) didn't he sometimes think that he would marry Biddy? Neither his "love" for Estella nor his idea about "keeping company" with Biddy were ever fully formed.
From Biddy's reactions to him, it seemed to me that she did have feelings for Pip.
Jonathan, you say, "Sometimes I wonder if Dickens had a heart. Certainly not for the characters he didn't like." LOL. What a good observation. Dickens could be very cutting, down to specific details.
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You are so right, JOANP. Dickens is amazing in his ability to produce characters, like
Pumblechook and Stimpole, that I really love to detest! It isn't only that they are such
outrageous self-servers..they seem to be geting away with it!!
I do see the steady growth in Pip, the keener awareness of both possibilities and
shortcomings. It's a difficult age for anyone, learning who you really are and what
really matters. As MARCIE notes, his judgment is still not 'fully formed'.
Still, Pip is intelligent enough to be aware of what he is doing. "Whatever her tone
with me happened to be, I could put no trust in it, and build no hope in it; and yet I
went against trust and against hope." I can't understand this, but I do realize that it
is not an uncommon thing. How many people, women as well as men, have found themselves
in a miserable relationship, yet unable to break free of it?
Hmm,..I wonder. Are we again seeing a bit of Dickens' life here?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
JULY and August Book Club Online.
GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexfirsteditioncover2.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatextitlepage.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexanniversarycover.jpg)
Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012
Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.
"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illissue12.gif) | Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1
July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX
VOLUME 2
July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI (XX - XXV)
July 29-August 4 ~ Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII)
August 5-11 ~ Chapters XIV-XX (XXXIII - XXXIX)
VOLUME 3
August 12-18 ~ Chapters I-VII (XL-XLVI)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illXXXVII.gif) |
Chapter XIV (XXXIII)
1. Do you find a comment that seems to be the centre of this chapter? Which one is it? And why?
2. Pip has another one of those sudden flares of light that touched a hidden memory. What do you think may have triggered it?
Chapter XV (XXXIV)
1. What further burden to his conscience now troubles Pip?
2. What was the 'gay fiction' of the two friends, Pip and Herbert? Have you had, or observed, similar situations?
3. What do you think of Pip and Herbert's method of "looking into our affairs"?
Chapter XVI (XXXV)
1. How did Pip cope with his sister's death?
2. Has Pip's behavior toward Biddy changed? What is your reaction to each of them from their conversation together?
Chapter XVII (XXXVI)
1. Can you suggest a reason why answering Pip's questions about his benefactor could compromise Jaggers?
2. What is the first thing Pip did with his new income? What does this say to us about him?
Chapter XVIII (XXXVII)
1. Wemmick has two personas. How does he keep them separate? What does his say to us about him?
2. What explanation does Wemmick give for his decision to assist Pip in his giving away of 'portable property'?
3. What is your impression of Miss Skiffins?
Chapter XIX (XXXVIII)
1. What new development emerges in Miss Havisham's plans for Estella?
2. How does Pip explain Estella's attitude to support his own delusion?
3. What is the basis of the quarrel between Miss Havisham and Estella? What is Estella's position. How does she explain it?
Chapter XX (XXXIX)
1. The day of revelation has arrived. What hopes and dreams , what 'great expectations', does Pip's benefactor hold towards him? What is Pip's reaction to the news?
2. Why, do you think, did Pip's benefactor make this a life's goal?
3. What great risk is the benefactor taking?
Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1400/1400-h/1400-h.htm#2HCH0001); Dickens and Victorian Education (http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/schools-and-education/victorian-education.html); Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dickens/ge/huangcd.html); The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/bazalgette_joseph.shtml); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/cross13.htm) |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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An interesting question, Babi. About Dickens - and the rest of us...
"How many people, women as well as men, have found themselves in a miserable relationship, yet unable to break free of it?" It's probably a mistake to admit a personal response to this question...but I will, if only to say that it takes a determined effort to break free. And add - it is never really completely overcome.
So Miss Havisham has made arrangements for Estella is to live in Richmond - with a family that will introduce her to the the right people - ... Doesn't Pip believe that Miss H intends for him to marry Estella? Does the fact that she is sending Estella to be admired by others indicate otherwise? How does Pip take this news?
And Estella - "we have no choice, you and I, but to obey instructions, not free to follow our own devices." Like puppets. Does this suggest that Estella would choose Pip if left to her own devices, but that Miss H has other plans for her. Where does this leave Pip? Do you understand Estella - at all?
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Still, Pip is intelligent enough to be aware of what he is doing. "Whatever her tone
with me happened to be, I could put no trust in it, and build no hope in it; and yet I
went against trust and against hope." I can't understand this, but I do realize that it
is not an uncommon thing. How many people, women as well as men, have found themselves
in a miserable relationship, yet unable to break free of it?
have heard many times remarks on why abused children want desperately to go back to their abuser parent---perhaps hope? perhaps that they can change this behaviour, the tight bond with a parent that the child just can't let go....remember reading ''A Child called 'It"---emotional refusal to break the bond that ties ones to a nurturer, especially if there are tiny -rays of hope- (tiny little temptations of nice behaviour thrown out as --a carrot held in front of a horse)
what keeps one in these circles; not allowing one to step outside and see the real picture--the interference of the emotional noose --where in Dicken's life did he get this tie {I'm wondering as well Babi--where did this come from}and depict it for such a segment in this book....seems the gentle people now I am speaking of Biddy & Joe, seem to be pushed aside in his life, and their influence could have led to such a different outcome
seems like the human soul struggles and prefers to run with 'adventure, the unpredictable, excitement' --(Estella & Jenkins--even their names sound a sinister)rather than a harmonious compatible,--(Biddy & Joe)
Deb
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What an interesting observation, BOOKAD. You are right, Dickens does use simple straight-
forward names for his favorite simple, straightforwad people. Doesn't 'Biddy' bring up the
image of a gentle, motherly type of woman? And we find odd names to help identify
those he despises. Like 'Pumblechook'. Or simply to give a clue as to the character's
true nature. I mean, what is one to think of a name like "Chuzzlewit"?
A small query. After a colordul description of green farthingales, diamond-hilted swords, red-
heeled shoes and a blue solitarire, Dickens cites the "cherry-colored maids". What do you think
he meant by that? Red-faced? Red uniforms? (surely not!)
Another lovely tongue-in-cheek line from our author. "So now, as an infallible way of making
little ease great, I began to contract a quantity of debt." ::)
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JoanP, yes Miss Havisham has made puppets of both Estella and Pip. What a grip she has had on Estella since infancy and now, through Estella, on Pip.
Bookad, it does seem that Pip is in the role of the abused child who keeps coming back for more of the same. Was his first experience of abuse from his sister? Was he raised in an abusive relationship? If so, that might help to explain his inability to extract himself from Estella.
Babi, some of the scenes depicting the debt of Pip and Herbert, though a sad subject, are hilarious. The way that Pip goes about counting his debts and wrapping the bills in a neat bundle. He says it engenders the same satisfaction of actually paying the bills.
I'm wondering how Jaggers let Pip get into such debt. I thought he was to keep an eye on him.
Babi, I was wondering the same thing about the description of "cherry-colored maids." Maybe their ruddy complexion? Or there is a "Red Maids School" in Bristol, founded in 1634. There is a photo of some students wearing red cloaks at http://kleurrijkbrontesisters.blogspot.com/2011/05/catherine-and-suzanne-winkworth.html.
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I don't think Jaggers ever said just how much Pip was likely to receive. Perhaps if he knew there was a limit, he would have been a little more careful. But I doubt it. He wasn't staying in his budget was he. I thought Jagger's had him on an allowance of so much a month. Even when he reached 21, it appears he is to get a budget of 500 pounds a year. Seems awful small these days.
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What an interesting link, Marcie.
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"The Red Maids' school was founded in 1634 from the bequest of John Whitson, Mayor and MP of Bristol, making it the oldest surviving girls' school in England at over 375 years old. His original Red Maids’ Hospital provided a secure home for the orphaned or destitute daughters of freemen or burgesses of the City of Bristol, where they were taught to read and sew."
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TXk0hqfn04k/TdbPHAfL8_I/AAAAAAAAWOc/1wnPHKirlLc/s320/3050694164_5e51b2a75e.jpg)
So like Dickens to include the reference to the orphaned and destitute. The school is quite different now, though, you have to apply and pass tests to get in - but the uniform is still "cherry coloured" as it has been for centuries.
You get the impression that this is quite a fancy home where Estella will be staying - and presented to the creme of society. Estella tells Pip that the Havisham cousins hate him - they are watching him - and report to Miss Havisham. To soften the news, she tells Pip they hate her too. She's to inherit the Havisham fortune. If she had not been adopted, the fortune would have been hers.
I can understand why they'd resent Estella, but why do they hate Pip? Do they suspect that Miss H is financing his education? Or do they think that Pip and Estella will marry? Where would they get that information?
Deb - that's an interesting observation. I think I'm going to watch all of the names Dickens' gives his characters from now on. I'd been thinking that some of them were quite unusual...Pumblechook, Dremmle, Tulkinghorn...etc. And others were such simple familiar names. Now I'm going to consider those with the made up names as suspect. Thanks!
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Fry - I think that Jaggers is just doing his job, following instructions - handing Pip a fixed amount every month. His job doesn't seem to include keeping an eye on Pip. So when the allowance is gone each month, Pip is gambling or borrowing. He's getting into trouble, but that's not Jaggers' business. Others may disagree...see Jaggers differently.
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I have been assuming that the Pocket pack suspect that Ms. H. is Pip's benefactor just as he himself does. They saw him as an unwelcome intrusion when he visited to play with Estella and walk Ms. H.
Did Dickens ever say how Sarah Pocket came to be a permanent fixture at Satis House? I don't recall, only that she was staying there after Pip was dismissed from his duties. Personally, I'd be afraid to let any of the greedy vultures near the place for any length of time.
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I am surprised that the benefactor in dispensing money thru Jaggers would not set have set Pip up with someone who had more concern for his welfare....someone who was concerned that he received what he was due and would also offer advice and be concerned enough to keep an eye on Pip with his new wealth
Deb
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Help me out. With those two illustrations in the header. I can identify Pip with his reading lamp greeting Magwitch on the stairs, but who are the four in the drawing on the left?
We've heard so much from Pip, about his painful childhood. Now Estella is given an opportunity to talk about hers. (Ch XIV) Horrors! 'You were not brought up in that strange house from a mere baby. I was. You had not your little wits sharpened by their (the Pockets) intriguing against you. I had.
Who does Estella mean by 'that imposter of a woman who calculates her stores of peace of mind for when she wakes up in the night.' like 'I did.'
Pip is living the life his patron wishes for him. Not so with Estella. She's being played with. And doesn't like it. But the truth has caught up with Pip, and he is horrified. Are Mrs Havisham and Magwitch living vicarious lives with their machinations? This is getting sinister.
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I keep wondering who Sarah Pocket is, Fry - and why she stays on at Satis House, when the other cousins are not welcome visitors. Pip continues to refer to her yellow and greeness. Did you notice her at dinner when Mr. Jaggers, Estella, Pip and his "green and yellow friend" dined together? She seemed to grow "greener and yellower" at the sight of Pip. Jonathan suggests the green may indicate envy. Not too sure about the yellow.
"I am surprised that the benefactor in dispensing money thru Jaggers would not set have set Pip up with someone who had more concern for his welfare..."
Deb - now that we have met the benefactor, are you surprised at his lack of wisdom and concern? I wasn't.
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Jonathan, Pip had a better childhood than Estella, didn't he? He's not as messed up as Estella - and will have loving people to fall back on if things go wrong for him - and it seems he's on a downward spiral. Who does Estella have in her corner?
An interesting question about that first illustration in the heading -
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illXXXIV.gif)
Unfortunately there were no titles with these illustrations from the Stanford Project. Most of them are self explanatory - -
I can tell you what I thought this one was about -
THat's either the Avenger, helping his master dress for his meeting with that ridiculous drinking club - the Finches -- or is it Herbert getting Pip into his boots? Though it could also be Pip booting up a reluctant Herbert. What do you think? That seems to be Dremmle and Startop waiting for them at the door for another night on the town...
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A 'Red Maids School'! What a wonderful find, MARCIE. I don't know if that was what
Dickens was referring to but they were obviously still around.
Pip was left an orphan while still a nursing infant, if you recall. So he has been in
his sister's dubious care all his life. Really, I think the only thing that saved him
from being totally ruined was what protection and affection Joe could give him.
On the question of Jaggers responsibly as to monitoring Pip's expenditures, it occurs to
me that profligacy was sort of expected of 'young gentlemen' of the day. Fathers were
always having to cover the debts of their male offspring while they 'sowed their oats'.
Perhaps Jaggers regarded this as part of Pip's education.
I agree with FRYBABE. It seems fairly plain that the Havisham relatives have fallen into
the same error as Pip and everyone else. Miss Havisham MUST be the benefactor; who else is
there? So of course they bitterly resent every penny that goes to him.
As to the choice of Jaggers, Magwitch know him as an agent that will do what he has
contracted to do, to the letter, which is exactly what Magwitch needs. He can't be
supervising from overseas.
Thanks for the input on that illustration, JOANP. I hadn't a clue; thought someone had a leg
injury, which I couldn't remember happening.
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I thought I remembered Jaggers or Wemmick saying something to Pip about his money the first day that Pip met them. I looked back at the very end of Chapter XXI and it says that his guardian told him how much his (liberal) allowance was to be and Jaggers hands him the cards of various tradesmen he is to deal with. He tells him "You will find your credit good. Mr. Pip... but I shall by this means to be able to check on your bills, and o pull you up if I find you outrunning the constable. Of course you'll go wrong somehow, but that's no fault of mine."
I'm now wondering if Pip is into debt with people not among the tradesmen that Jaggers told him to use or if, as you say Babi, that Jaggers is regarding Pip's debts as part of his education.
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I think that picture is of the tailor peeling off those stockings from Wopsle after his ridiculous performance at the theater, with Pip and Herbert looking on from the door since they didn't fit in the small dressing room.
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Thanks for the help. Of course, that's what it must be. Wopsle being helped out of his costume, after coming off the stage. I believe Hamlet was wearing a festooned hat of some kind. Which chapter was that? It is worth rereading.
I think Pip is working very hard at playing the gentleman, debts and all. I like the way you put it, Babi. Pip is very conscientious in being honest with himself, and it would have been reassuring to have Jaggers tell him, I'll help you if you get into trouble. Jaggers is very professional.
'...not as messed up as Estella' How true, JoanP. I can't help remembering that behind these two young people, Estella and Pip, are two messed up adults, Miss Havisham and Magwitch. What sorry lives. How will it ever end?
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Hi
Had a wonderful time at our reunion in Portland. Visited the largest bookstore in North America. The street with 70, yes seventy food carts, Mount Hood, travelled the length of the Columbia River, the gorgeous Chinese Gardens etc. ets. Saw folks that I haven't seen in many years and made some new friends too.
Now back to GE.
I want to answer question #1.But in a different way. (Did you finf a comment that seems to be the center of the chapter.?)
I went through the whole group of chapters for this week and found three paragraphs that, for me, show the development of our main characters-Pip and Estella- and their growtth into adulthood. Like most people that period from 18 to 21 involves misery, stupidity and the beginnings of adult wisdom.(Remember the word 'Angst".)
Chapt. 25: Pip re self
"......We were always more or less miserable, and most of our acquaintances were in the same condition. There was a gay fiction among us that we were constantly enjoying ourselves, and a skeleton truth that we never did."
Chapt. XVIII:Pip re Estella
"....there were.....operas, concerts, parties, all sorts of pleasuresthrough which I persued her- and they were all miseries to me. I never had one hours happinessin her society, and yet my mind all around the four and twenty hours was harping on having her with me unto death."
Chapt. XIX: Estella to Miss H
".....Mother by adoption, I have said that I owe everything to you. All I possess is freely yours. All that you have given me , is at your command to have again. Beyond that I have nothing. And if you ask me to give you what you never gave me, my gratitude and duty cannot do impossibilities."
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JudeS-I love those quotes --I am reading this book on Gutenberg on my blackberry playbook--but think I will look around for a e-book reader that allows for underlining, highlighting, writing notes--hard to go back chapters except thru books like Barron's notes or something like that--but their summaries don't help for backtracking.
I guess each age one gains one might feel so 'in charge of things' until the next age when one realizes the truth of the situation...and so it continues...the truths becoming hindsight so to speak!!!!
Deb
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Sounds like you had a terrific time, JudeS. It's great to have you back though.
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Yes, welcome back, Jude. Sounds like a great break! And you made some new friends too. Icing on the cake!
"...and so it continues...the truths becoming hindsight so to speak!!!!" Now that's deep, Deb! I have to give some thought to each of your posts, but first, I need to try to fix something, if I can.
Jonathan, the chapter that described Mr. Wopsle's performance was an earlier one - depending on the edition you are reading - chapter XII or chapter XXXI, I think. That illustration should not have appeared in this heading since it did not illustrate the chapters we are reading this week. For the last half hour, I've tried to figure out where it belongs...with no success. I've decided to pull up my stockings and carry on from here.
Marcie was right in her interpretation of that illustration of course...the funny scene in Mr. Wopsle's dressing room is worth rereading. I liked it because Pip was truly enjoying himself - comfortable with this old acquaintance...taking him to dinner. Pie still has ties to his old life - and that seems important as we move on.
OK - here's another quiz for you...the illustration that belongs with Chapters XIX-XX or {XXXVII- XXXIX} is this one -
Do you remember a scene like this? I don't, but I'll put it up where it belongs in the heading.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illissue12.gif)
Will return after lunch to catch up with your posts here...before the double sets of Roman numbers drive me crazy!
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Yes--Chapter XXXVII. Pip is visiting Wemmick to get private advice. That's the Aged sitting in a corner reading the paper, Pip is sitting by himself, and Wemmick and Miss Skiffins are sitting together, with Wemmick's arm alternately stealing around Miss Skiffins' waist and being firmly put back in its place by Miss S.
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JUDE: that sounds great! I love Powells bookstore and the Japanese gardens even though I've never been there from the descriptions of my sister and nieces.
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There are two gardens to choose from in Portland, Japanese and Chinese, and it's a tough choice.
Chinese, that Jude saw:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1265.jpg (http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1265.jpg)
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1096.jpg (http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1096.jpg)
Japnese:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_0888.jpg (http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_0888.jpg)
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_0891.jpg (http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_0891.jpg)
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Tough choice indeed! you'll just have to go back and compare!
I love the dragon!
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Pat
Thanks so much for the photos of the Chiinese gardens!
Didn't know there were also Japanese gadens.
Did you take those lovely views?
What a vibrant place Portland is. What an amazing bookstore was Powells. Like a Book Palace full of wonderful choices and thronging with people. If I lived there I would be a regular visitor.
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Oh, excellent, JUDE! Your choices really put the situations into a nutshell. And may I say I'm so glad you're back, and I would have been torn with indecision on that street with the 70 food carts.
Oh, indeed, DEB. That is what much of our vaunted 'experience' and 'wisdom' consists of.. hindsight! :D
Ah, yes. After some thought I can place that illustration, JOAN. Remember Pip, Wemmick and his ladyfriend delighting Wemmick's father by listening while he read the newspaper? That was such a pleasant, heartwarming time. Ah, I see PatH recognized it, too. I had forgotten about the 'traveling arm' game. I do love these little touches Dickens gives his scenes.
Beautiful gardens, PAT. Isn't it interesting how different the two are, despite both being near neighbors. The Japanese gardens do appear to me more tranquil. I guess if you live in such a small, crowded country, tranquil must be of great importance.
To switch from the pleasant Wemmick household to the far less pleasant
Pocket household, I am faced again with Mrs. Pocket. Does she remnd
you of some other Dickens characters we've met? From Bleak House,
perhaps? Mrs. Pocket "tripped up the family with her footstool, read her book of dignities, lost her pocket handkerchief, told us about her
grandpapa, and taught the young idea (the youngest child) how to shoot
by shooting him into bed whenever he attracted her notice."
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Jude, it might be some consolation for you to know that Powell's has a great web site - new and used books, reviews, etc. A wonderful site if you have the time to browse it, that is! :D Powell's Books (http://www.powells.com/?gclid=COnUhcvM2rECFaVlOgodhxEAJQ)
Babi commented about Wemmick's two personas - asks how he keeps them separate. The question makes me think about other characters in the story. Wemmick's method is easy - distance. He walks a few miles, gets to his Castle, surrounded by that drawbridge, leaving the dirty work of London - in London.
Does he use space and distance to present different sides his other characters? Pip seems to have forgotten the forge and his old life while in London, but when he comes into contact with the folks back home - with Wopsle, Joe, Biddy -you recognize the old Pip again. Do you detect a change in Estella since she has been away to Paris? Yes, she looks different - Pip hardly recognized her, but doesn't she seem to have changed?
Babi, oh yes, Mrs. Pocket - a one-dimensional character we recognize from Dickens' other novels- and yes, I think Dickens is alluding to his own wife, the mother of his children - some will say unfairly. But you have to smile at the exaggerated rendering of this "negligent mother" - letting the baby play with a needlecase to keep her quiet - and when she noticed some of the needles were missing - sends the baby to bed so she could read her book in peace. Maybe she's one that needs time away...
Do you think that Dickens is also taking aim at himself, at his role of the father - when he portrays Matthew Pocket out lecturing on "Management of Children and Servants" - while his own household is in chaotic shambles?
I'm wondering if we will see a different side of Miss Havisham or Mr. Jaggers - or if Dickens is carefully selecting certain characters to present as one-dimensional types?
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Yes, Jude, I took those pictures. The Japanese garden isn't as easy to get to; it's near the Rose Garden, in Washington Park.
The bit that sums up Chapter XXXIII for me is Estella's remark to Pip: "We have no choice, you and I, but to obey our instructions. We are not free to follow our own devices, you and I."
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My quote would come from the end of Chapter XX, Chapter XXXIX:
'But, sharpest and deepest pain of all - it was for the convict, guilty of I know not what crimes, and liable to be taken out of these rooms where I sat thinking, and hanged at the Old Bailey door, that I had deserted Joe. That I could never, never, never, undo what I had done.'
What a terrible awakening. What an awful disillusionment. What a rueful recognition of his fake gentleman situation.
'...all a mere dream; Estella not designed for me; I only suffered in Satis House as a convenience, a sting for the greedy relations, a model with a mechanical heart to practise on when no other practice was at hand.'
Used by Miss Havisham! Just like Estella has been. Certainly a lot of high drama in these chapters. We are who you made us.
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Welcome back, Jude.
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Just speculating, JOANP, but it seemed to me Estella's change was simply from young girl
to young woman. Always proud and scornful, she is now confident of her power and has had
time to fully recognize and understand her position. We see that emerge not only in her
ease with Pip, but her new-found cool firmness with Miss Havisham. Estella shows a remarkable
insight into her own situation. She is undoubtedly a very intelligent young woman.
Now that made me smile, the possibility that Mr. Pocket's lecture was a reflection on
how Dickens sees some of his. By interesting coincidence, a letter from Charles Dickens
turned up on Antiques Roadshow. Some one..possibly an agent..had written him on behalf
of a Lady, asking for seating reservations for his next reading. Apparently these were
very popular, with packed audiences, sort of like one of today's pop star concerts.
I had to stop to think about your question, if Dickens selects certain characters to
present as one-dimensional. I can see where characters like Pumblechook and Skimpole
are sealed into their roles, so you could very well be right about this. As to Miss
Havisham or Jaggers, I'm not at all sure they would be considered one-dimensional. Miss
Havisham is certainly obsessive and Jaggers has his obsessive mannerisms, but I'm not
at all sure we will find them to be wholly one-dimensional. Miss Havisham, in her reaction
to Estella's confrontation, already seems to be undergoing a major change.
PatH, that line pretty well summed up the theme for me, too. And Jonathan's choice for
Ch.XXXIX is very appropriate for that chapter.
I found interesting the line spoken by Wemmick, to explain why he chose to help Pip with
his plans for Herbert's future. "..that there are Newgate cobwebs about, and it brushes them
away."
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Good morning, Babi! Funny you should bring up Wemmick's advice to Pip. I was just puzzling over that.
Pip is feeling guilty - his lavish spending has also put Herbert into debt he will never be able to pay back. But is it wise to buy him a position?
To tell the truth, I thought the advice Wemmick gave Pip back in the London office was quite sound and wonder what made him change his mind once removed to his Castle.
London advice: Pick one of the six bridges over the Thames and pitch your money into the river. "A man should never invest portable property in a friend - unless he wants to be rid of a friend."
Walruth advice: Very generous, Pip. Do it by degrees.
So Pip decides to follow this advice - and Herbert is happy to purchase a position with a young shipping merchant - he's a partner, who will provide the capital for the business. What would happen to Herbert if no longer able to provide the monthly capital?
Wemmick is such a caring and generous man - clearly one of Pip's friends. Such friends are familiar characters in Dickens' stories? I was happy to see he has a lady friend too. Does anyone have any idea why she is wearing green gloves?
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Jonathan, I think that the quotes you selected sum up the culmination of the first two sections of the book. Pip has finally fully realized that, because of his mistake about the source of his expectations, he has been only a plaything for Miss Havisham to seek her revenge on men through Estella. And he knows what he couldn't admit before... that he deserted Joe and Biddy and betrayed their love for him.
My quote would come from the end of Chapter XX, Chapter XXXIX:
'But, sharpest and deepest pain of all - it was for the convict, guilty of I know not what crimes, and liable to be taken out of these rooms where I sat thinking, and hanged at the Old Bailey door, that I had deserted Joe. That I could never, never, never, undo what I had done.'
What a terrible awakening. What an awful disillusionment. What a rueful recognition of his fake gentleman situation.
'...all a mere dream; Estella not designed for me; I only suffered in Satis House as a convenience, a sting for the greedy relations, a model with a mechanical heart to practise on when no other practice was at hand.'
Used by Miss Havisham! Just like Estella has been. Certainly a lot of high drama in these chapters. We are who you made us.
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Does Pip know his sister's last words to Joe? I thought that was amazing. What do you think prompted her to ask him to forgive Pip? I didn't think she was aware of anything that was going on.
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Yes, Babi, Estella is very sure of herself now--very cool, and skillful at playing her admirers off against each other. One thing I noticed: Estella has several times warned Pip about herself, how heartless she is, and dangerous. When Pip doesn't accept her warning, she say at least you've been warned.
Why does she do this? Is there a tiny bit of feeling buried in the ice? Does she have enough conscience to feel a bit guilty about hurting him?
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Wish I'd known in July,but better late than never. I love reading almost anything, and will enjoy re-reading Great Expectation...I think this will be the 4th time.
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Welcome, Lorac, it's good to have you with us. It's a good thing you've already read the book--things will make sense while you're catching up.
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Welcome to the discussion, Lorac. You're sure to find kindred spirits here who also love to read almost anything. Where do you put Dickens in that grand scale? LOL. Your fourth time! Did you choose an ending? Do Estella and Pip find happiness in the end. Where we are now in the book, it seems likely that these two will be comparing notes about events in their past. Estella seems no happier about her life than Pip does about his.
What's a Newgate Cobweb? That is a recurring image in the book. And how does Jagger's comment: "Who is the spider, Pip?", fit into that? Jaggers asked that when he set eyes on Dremmle at the dinner.
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JULY and August Book Club Online.
GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexfirsteditioncover2.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatextitlepage.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexanniversarycover.jpg)
Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012
Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.
"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/ill40-42.gif) | Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1
July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX
VOLUME 2
July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI (XX - XXV)
July 29-August 4 ~ Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII)
August 5-11 ~ Chapters XIV-XX (XXXIII - XXXIX)
VOLUME 3
August 12 -18 ~ Chapters I-VII (XL-XLVI)
August 19-25 ~ Chapters VIII-XIV (XLVII-LIII)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/ill43-46.gif) |
Chapter I (XL)
1. Pip reacts to Magwitch with horror and disgust. Is this reasonable?
2. Who might the person on the stairs be?
Chapter II (XLI)
1. Magwitch's money was honestly earned. Why does Pip feel he can't take it? Is he right?
2. Magwitch has devoted years to his "fixed idea"--the goal of making a gentleman of Pip. How realistic was this? How has it benefitted Magwitch himself?
Chapter III (XLII)
1. How much do you think Magwitch realizes of Pip's disgust for him?
2. We finally get Magwitch's story. Do you sympathize? Is the long arm of coincidence being stretched too far here?
Chapter IV (XLIII)
1. Pip & Drummle have an amusing struggle before the fireplace. Does this remind you of anyone you know?
Chapter V (XLIV)
1. What does Pip want for Matthew and Herbert Pocket?
2. Why has Estella agreed to marry Drummle?
3. Miss Havisham looks ghastly at Pip's belief that Estella couldn't marry Drummle, and later at his declaration of hopeless love and disappointment. Why?
Chapter VI (XLV)
1. Who do you think is keeping a watch on Pip's lodging?
2. Has your opinion of Wemmick evolved? Where do his loyalties lie?
Chapter VII (XLVI)
1. Here we introduce a new, humorous, character, Mr. Barley. Is this effective?
2. Magwitch has changed a bit, as has Pip's reaction to him. How come?
3. Do the plans of Pip and Herbert seem workable?
Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1400/1400-h/1400-h.htm#2HCH0001); Dickens and Victorian Education (http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/schools-and-education/victorian-education.html); Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dickens/ge/huangcd.html); The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/bazalgette_joseph.shtml); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/cross13.htm) |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Lorac...carol :D - what a delightful surprise to find you here with us today. Will echo Pat and Jonathan's welcome - Welcome...Welcome...Welcome!
Yes, yes, jump right in - we're about to learn of Pip's benefactor and his intentions for Pip's future. Can Pip afford to turn away from his portable property at this point? Will he?
Spiders and cobwebs...Newgate cobwebs. Estella comments that Jaggers knows everyone's secrets. For some unexplained reason he shows great interest in Dremmle, the spider. It will be interesting to see if Dickens will follow up with this, Jonathan.
PatH, I've been noticing tiny bits of feeling for Pip - the ice maiden tells Pip somewhere that she won't play the same games with Pip that she is playing with all the others who hover around her. Do you remember what the argument with Miss Havisham was about? That's the first time we've ever seen the two of them disagree - in Pip's presence too...
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Welcome, Lorac. We're very glad you've joined us.
JoanP, I was interpreting Mrs. Joe's last words as asking Pip for forgiveness. That blow to the head seems to have made her less aggressive and perhaps she has been able to reflect on her past treatment of Pip.
PatH, Estella does warn Pip repeatedly. Do you think she sees in Pip a kindred young person who has been manipulated by Miss Havisham and is, therefore, out of bounds by Estella's own code of conduct?
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Ohh, JoanP, that exchange between Miss Havisham and Estella was chilling. Miss Havisham wants Estella's love---Miss H raised Estella to have a hard heart against everyone but did not think that would include herself. Estella tells her calmly and matter-of-factly that she can't give what she never received.
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Re: Newgate Spiders
I read a very, very, V E R Y long article on Google that dealt with this issue and many others. I will try to summarise part of what I gleaned from this dissertation.
Newgate is an extremely horrible prison.. Wemmick must go there quite often.He deals with a world of guilt, criminality, prisons and evil. His role in the story is to show that to survive in this atmosphere one must learn to to compartmentalise. Wemmick tells Pip: "The office is one thing and private life another. One must accomadate oneself to them , but I can maintain the "Castle" where one can brush the Newgate cobwebs away."
Wemmick understands that life must be a compromise. It is essentially the strategy of modern urban man. Living in a state of untarnished innocence can only be done by those who have no contact with or power within the city like Joe and Biddy.
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Marcie! I never thought of that - that Pip's sister was asking Pip's forgiveness with her last words. Of course that is more in keeping with one's last thoughts - asking forgiveness for one's own actions, rather than asking someone else to forgive someone else... What do you think she had in mind when asking that?
Jude - thank you for that information! Much food for thought. the Newgate prison, "world of guilt, criminality, prisons and evil"
. I'm reminded of Dickens' aversion to the city of London, the filth, the crime, the corruption.
"A state of untarnished innocence can only be done by those who have no contact with or power within the city like Joe and Biddy." Jude
In a way Magwitch's appearance is a blessing, isn't it? No one was happy, matters were only getting worse - more money will only prolong the "unhappy fiction" that it can bring happiness. The truth is that neither Pip, nor Herbert were happy with what money could bring - in fact both were miserable, Herbert hating his job, Pip loathing his days in his quarters, filled with debts, with luxury furniture...not to mention the Avenger's presence - and then those nights spent with the Finches...
Will Pip continue to live in London, accepting Magwitch's money? How can he?
Dickens seems to be drawing a connection between the cobwebs of Newgate prison and the suggestion that Magwitch has placed himself in its shadow. Is there a reason for his return at this time? - Isn't it about time for Pip to put behind him the illusion that Miss Havisham has planned to make him a gift of Estella? If nothing else, Magwitch's return will accomplish this.
ps. Jude, do you think Dickens is drawing a connection between Dremmle, the "Spider" and the cobwebs of Newgate prison? Did Jaggers imply that when he showed interest in Dremmle - and nicknamed him Spider - as Jonathan suggested yesterday.
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If I'm not mistaken, JOANP, Pip paid for Herbert's position, and Herbert knows nothing
about it. Part of the deal was that Herbert should not know. He simply believes he has
found the opportunity he has long looked for, and is ecstatic! Pip will continue to
furnish any necessary capital until it's no longer required.
No idea why the lady friend wears green gloves. I assume she just likes the color.
PatH, I have always thought Estella had a tiny soft spot for Pip; she just will not
allow it to get in her way. In warning him, she has done what she could and her conscience
in the matter is clear. If he won't listen, well...she tried. I like MARCIE's suggestion
that Estella sees Pip as a kindred soul, manipulated by the will of others.
A Newgate cobweb? To me, JONATHAN, that was simply the ugliness that clings to people
who have to deal with the place, it's prisoners and it's keepers. Wemmick feels that
doing a good deed helps to offset that ugliness, brush of some of the clinging 'cobwebs',
so to speak.
An excellent point on the Newgate 'spiders', JUDE. You are so right. Every profession
that must deal with the uglier side of life and human sorrows must learn to put that aside
for their personal lives. It's necessary for their own health and sanity.
I'm sure you've all noticed how Dickens relieves the depressing aspects of his books with
the bits of levity. He injected a smile for me with the line: "Miss Skiffin brewed such a jorum of
tea that the pig in the back premises became srongly excited, and repeatedly expressed his
desire to participate in the entertainment." :)
Now, as this section closes, the true benefactor is revealed, and the exiled convict risks his
life to return and enjoy his creation, the 'young gentleman'. He has no way of knowing how
this news has destroyed all Pip's hopes and 'expectatons'. Magwitch lost everyone he cared
about, and went to jail and exile for fighting for justice over their loss.
It seems to me that Pip, the only one who showed him kindness, became his substitute for all
he had lost. Pip was his surrogate son, Pip was his inspiration; Pip was his success in life.
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Thanks for all the comments on the Newgate Cobweb thing. I'm not surprised, Jude, that you found a whole dissertation on it. Dickens seems to have fixed on the idea of spiders and cobwebs, and being caught up in them. And his own tale is quickly turning into the most tangled web of all. Why didn't he just call it The Spider's Web? How unpleasant to be caught in one, whether the web of crime and punishment of Newgate, or the web of the death of hope and love in Satis House. Cobwebs everywhere. How will Estella and Pip ever extricate themselves?
And will Miss Havisham and Magwitch ever get over their disappointments over their creations. Both find their creations turning into strangers. And for Pip, Magwitch quickly turns into a greater embarrassment than Joe. Murderers and blacksmiths. How can one be a gentleman with that baggage!
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Can you just imagine Dickens' readers as they neared the end of the last chapter of this Installment? The gradual realization that this is the same repulsive convict, standing there in Pip's rooms, with tears in his eyes as Pip shows him the door; the same person who sent the two pound notes, Pip tries to pay back to get rid of him; and it gets worse as he learns that this was Jaggers' client.
We all knew that Magwitch was Pip's benefactor, right? Yet it was still overwhelming to read these pages and watch Pip come to the realization that Miss Havisham has been using him and Estella - well, there will be no happily ever after for Pip and Estella.
"But, sharpest and deepest pain of all, that I had deserted Joe."
"I could never, never, never undo what I had done."
Can't wait to turn to the final Volume. I honestly don't remember how Pip pulls his life together once he knows this truth. I do know never to say never though...
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Magwitch's money was honestly earned. Why does Pip feel he can't take it? Is he right?
Well, how can he, feeling as he does now? His dreams are shattered, his status as a
'young gentleman' is ludicrous in his own eyes, and most of all, this benefaction was the cause
of his betrayal of Joe. At this point, he knows nothing about Magwitch and his history. He sees
only the frightening convict, the criminal, who wants to be his companion in life, as well as his
patron. I would think, more than anything, Pip just longs to return to Joe and Biddy and try
to make his peace...and home..there.
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This section is very intense. Pip is shattered knowing that his great expectations, and life as a "gentleman," are based on a convict whom he can't stand to be with. Yet he knows that Magwitch is risking his life to be with him in England. He believes that he can't take the money but a portion of the money is what is buying Herbert's livelihood. Pip knows that everything he based his hopes on with Estella is not true. He wishes that he had never left the forge but he feels that his betrayal of Joe and Biddy is so great that he can't go back. I am anxious to see what happens next.
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Okay, so he can't go back to the forge, that he will never be forgiven; he knows it's over with Estella, that there never was a future with her; and now he has this this man, this frightening, dangerous escaped convict in his room - who, it turns out, is his benfactor, who loves Pip more than anyone in the world. I'm surprised while reading the first chapters in this last volume, to see Pip's sole consideration is to keep the convict hidden and safe. He seems to have forgotten all about Estella. He doesn't want to use the money any longer - how will he live, how will he pay for Herbert's partnership? What is motivating him?
Magwitch has decided to call himself Provis. What shall we call him? Pip is now calling him "Provis"- Uncle Provis. So is Herbert. Shall we call him that? I wonder at Dickens' thought process in deciding on this name. I looked up "proviso" - a clause, a condition, a rider - showing that this name is provisional...there are strings attached to it.
You know, I have no idea what will happen next...even after watching many film adaptations of Great Expectations - and I read the novel years and years ago - I remember Miss Havisham and her mental state at the bridal table - and I remember Magwitch was Pip's benefactor, not Miss Havisham. But there is nothing in my memory bank that prepares me for what is to come. I'm as excited as Dickens' readers were when they received this new issue.
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Intense is right--both in feelings and action. Everything Pip was counting on has collapsed; nothing is the way he thought it was. And now he has to keep Magwitch from being caught and get him safely out of the country.
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The change in Pip himself is greater than change in his circumstance. At the beginning, he is a shallow dandy. by the end, he is a man, with the responsibility for everyone he cares for on his shoulders.
Have any of you had an event in your lives that made such a big change? Is it plausible that he would change so much so fast?
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Joan K:
You asked is it plausible that Pip would change so much so fast?
That is a question each of us, in our lives deals with. It may seem as though one event brought about the change but that is never the case. It is a process. We may not be fully aware of the proces. It may be partially unconcious. Bt when it becomes concious it is very hard to bear.
In my reading no one has expressed this process better than Dante:
" In the middle if the journey of life I came to myself in a dark wood where the straight way was lost. Ah, how hard a thing to tell of that wood, savage and hard and dense, the thought of which renews my fear! So bitter is it that death is hardly more."
In the next few chapters we watch Pip go through this difficult process. He will never be as he was. His innocence will have vanished . He will soon be able to deal wiht the world as it really exists. Lost Illusions rather than Great Expectations.
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I've been thinking about what you said yesterday, Jude - in answer to JoanK's question if it is plausible that Pip would change so much, so fast...
"It may seem as though one event brought about the change but that is never the case. It is a process."
How very true. I used to think that my mother's death when I was seven had a life-changing effect on me. But it wasn't a sudden change. It was the very gradual realization that I was going to have to seek beyond for answers, affection, guidance - things others had built-in and took for granted.
I can relate to Dickens' children in his fiction. Pip has nowhere to turn to express his feelings about Estella, his own feelings of inadequacy, his dreams, his questions about why anyone would single him for his expectations. He's been operating in a bubble, in a dreams. When the bubble burst and he learns the truth, he seems to take it very well, I thought. The real Pip, the caring Pip before the Estella dream interfered, was there all the time. There were many instances of his caring nature throughout. Now his chief concern seems to be to protect Magwitch.
And now we have Magwitch's story - what kind of a childhood was that? No notion of where he was born..."became aware of himself" down in Essex, thieving turnips for a living. Although he does remember someone, a man who ran away from him. Was this his father? Reminds me of Jo from Bleak House. Remember his childhood? I'm becoming more sympathetic to Magwitch - at least I can understand that he might want to do something for Pip - for the little boy who was kind to him, more than kind, come to think of it - whose parents were buried in the churchyard.
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Learning Magwitch's story does make a difference. I find myself sympathetic with his,
with his determination to do something for Pip. It is sad that he does not realize how
impossible is his dream of a life with Pip, enjoying his 'young gentleman'.
Q. Is the long arm of coincidence being stretched too far here?
At first glance, it might seem so. But when you look at the history of these relationships,
how one led to another, it is plausible. Especially when you consider how close and tight
such communities were in those days. Not many people traveled very far from their home
base. They tended to see much the same people throughout life. At least that has been my
impression. The center of the entire web of relationships appears to be Jaggers, and that
makes everything fall into place realistically, for me.
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Babi - Do you see Pip becoming more sympathetic towards Magwitch than he was at the start? I sense Magwitch getting hurt at some of Pip's reactions - he expected a little love, a little gratitude. He's been living for this moment. He tells Pip he has felt "low" on occasion. Did you spot it? I think Pip is becoming aware of the man's feelings
Jaggers is much like Bleak House's Tulkinghorn, isn't he? He is the keeper of many secrets. Remember the Roman soldier pointing down from Tulkinghorn's ceiling - at his murdered body? Jaggers has those two dreadful death masks behind his own desk in his office. Is there a parallel? I think we should keep an eye on him, but also fear his fate may be the same. The man has enemies.
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Yes, I do see Pip becoming more sympathetic toward Magwitch. I was sure he would be as
he learned more of the old man's story. This is, after all, the same Pip that brought a hungry
escapee extra food. Pip is basically a tenderhearted young man, and his derelictions are
understandable considering his youth, naivete and adoration of the unobtainable Estella.
Do you really think Jaggers might be in danger, JOAN? Everyone is so terrified of him, but so
respectful. No murder, at least. I don't believe there were any murders in this book.
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Magwitch took a fancy to Pip when Pip helped him,and decided to do something for Pip in return. This idea took over M's life, became the motivation for all he did. Having this purpose made him work hard at overcoming his past, succeeding so he could make of Pip what he couldn't be himself. His singleness of purpose probably accounts for what he thinks is his good luck--he was so focussed he was more likely to do everything well. And the dream has sustained him, kept him going through some very hard years.
So the dream has been good for Magwitch, shaped his life. What will happen when Pip tells him he can't take the money? When he fully realizes Pip's reaction? How will he bear the disappointment?
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I agree that Dickens has created a character in Magwitch who has earned our compassion. PatH, I don't think that Magwitch would be able to understand why Pip couldn't take the money. Pip's reason seems to be that he had invested all of his dreams and identity in realizing his expectations to become a gentleman for Estella, seemingly at the behest of Miss Havisham. The price he paid for that was turning his back on Joe and Biddy. Now that he knows it was the prisoner who provided the money, his "false dreams" are shattered and he is tormented by his failures toward Joe and Biddy. I think that he feels that he can't take the money that is tainted with his failure.
I hope that somehow Magwitch will be spared the shock of Pip's refusal to accept what Magwitch spent the last 15-20 years toiling for and dreaming about.
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is there any Pygmalion element here?---with Magwitch trying to change Pip....
Deb
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Good question, Deb. The story seems to be a variation on the Pygmalion theme, with Magwitch so dedicated to making it possible for Pip to live the life of a gentleman. Others wanted something else for Pip, but all were trying to be helpful. He did so little for himself. Or was he just being used by everyone? I hope that will not be Pip's final conclusion. He keeps saying this all took place so long ago.
A gentleman's life is a difficult thing. The only thing harder, I suspect, is the life of a lawyer. Imagine a life governed by the Rules of Evidence. But I'm getting impatient to reach the end, and I'm reading ahead. With Pip slowly turning his back on his dreams, will Pumblechook feel let down?
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DEB: good point. I hadn't thought of that,, but definitely. How did Pygmalion end (the Greek myth, not the Bernard Shaw version, which wasn't written until much later)? Could Dickens have been inspired by it?
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JoanK
From Ovids Metamorphesis X
A Greek sculpture fell in love with a statue he had created. Venus granted his wish and turned her iinto a real person. They married and lived happily ever after. They had a son Paphos and some say a daughter, Methame.
I don't think this was the basis for Dicken's plot. Elders unfulfilled ambitions (Expectations) of their young and the opposite, children's unfulfilled expectations of their elders is so common that Dickens had no need to look further than his own family.
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Your question has me thinking about the relationship between GB Shaw and Dickens, Deb. Shaw was a great admirer of Dickens - in fact wrote a well-known Preface to Great Expectations - quoted partially in the heading here.
There is a strong similarity between the transformations of Pip and Eliza Doolittle.
Pygmalion as Joan K says, is the story of the legendary sculptor and king of Cyprus, who fell in love with his own statue of Aphrodite. At his prayer, Aphrodite brought the statue to life as Galatea. Shaw presents a twist in the Greek myth, in which he transforms a flower girl into a duchess through the power of speech. The author uses this mythology to portray aspects of Victorian England social distinction. Language and social class - the difference and tension between the upper and lower class.
"A basic belief of the period was that a person is born into a class and that no one can move from one class to another. Shaw, on the contrary, believed that personality isn't defined by birth. Instead, he thought that you can achieve social change if you really believe in yourself." Do you think Shaw arrived at this conclusion from reading Dickens' Great Expectations?
Dickens likes to use dialect to distinguish the lower classes - Magwitch's rough speech - Orlick's too. But he doesn't attribute this speech to young Pip, does he? Maybe this is whyEstella was mocking him as being common in the early chapters. Like Eliza Doolittle, Pip no longer speaks or dresses like those in his village. Does that mean he has achieved social change?
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Pygmalion by GBShaw written in 1912 wasi nspired by a successful play by WS Gilbert in 1871.. Gilberts play was called Pygmalion and Galatea. There followed a burlesque version called Galatea or Pygmalion Reversed.
Shaw created the part of Eliza specifically for an actress, Mrs Patrick Campbell, for many reasons. Foremost was that he and Oscar Wilde felt that her diction on stage was that of a social climber.
Shaw wrote to his friend, Ellen Terry, that he met a rapscallion of a flower girl and all other women were driven from his mind.
Henry Higgins was in part patterned after Shaw's friend, the well known Philologist, Dr. Henry Sweet.
There is such a moat between Pygmalion and Great Expectations that is hard for me to bond the two. GE shows the develoopment of a young child and how he develops into a man. Pygmalion tells of the quick transformation of a flower girl who becomes a person of a different social class because her clothes and manner of speaking is changed. Shaw was writing about socity's superficiality while Dickens is given us deep insight into the life of person who suffers and learns about life's ups and downs, sorrows and happiness and what it takes to really become an adult who gives meaning to his life.
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so much information, thank you....when I suggested the 'Pygmalion' element I was thinking of M's involvement in Pip's metamorphosis into a 'gentleman,' and how it seemed to be M's dream while enduring his hours as a prisoner in Australia...interesting that such a small incident as when he comes upon Pip in the graveyard searching for his parent's graves....he snarls and frightens Pip into giving him food etc., yet when meeting him a day later or so is not angry to include Pip in his 'story' to the police...and so he develops an obsession that helps him survive the years in the penal colony ( his obsession of giving Pip the gift of being able to afford to become a gentleman)....in reading a number of sites discussing Pygmalion...many other works have been loosely tied into athe concept into a.... substantial 'change' of someone by another for a number of motives!!!
or this is what I came to see....and actually Pip is trying to change M., to fit in with his surroundings in England, but not seeming to have much luck
a point I found interesting from your comments 'what the effect of writers in the same time era upon each other'...
this books really pushes me in so many directions....I only wish I could find that dictionary that might put all the Dicken's words of his time period (and not in our usage today, or not in the same use) in one easy book to keep track of these while reading this book
Deb
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To me, the bottom line, the question that begs an answer - What is Dickens saying here - has money and education really changed Pip? He was such an advocate for education of the poor...
"...actually Pip is trying to change M., to fit in with his surroundings in England, but not seeming to have much luck."
Deb - do you really see Pip trying to change Magwitch to fit in to his surroundings? In the sense that he's trying to hide him? I remember Wemmick's advice to Pip - to stay in England until the time is right to leave - to stay in England because it is easier to hide in a big city. He sets him up in his own flat, takes him there only in the dark of night. But I'm not sure that is fitting in with his surroundings...
A funny thing about Wemmick - I find his advice wise and sound when he speaks from Jaggers' law office, but when Pip goes to the Castle and speaks to the "other Wemmick" he gets more sympathetic advice. Then I find myself changing my mind. Wemmick is key to the story, isn't he? In fact, I can't think of a better guide for Pip. Wasn't it Wemmick who first advised Pip to take Magwitch's money - "portable property"?
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You interest me, JONATHAN. (Nothing new in that.) Why do you thinks a gentleman's life
is difficult? From what I've seen, or rather read, about it it seems their greatest
problem is finding some relief from boredom.
The only thing I feel sure about re. Pumblechook, is that he will take any credit to
be had, and cast any and all blame on the victim.
Like Eliza Doolittle, Pip no longer speaks or dresses like those in his village. Does
that mean he has achieved social change?
Good question, JOANP. Based again only on what I've read, I suspect the upper classes
would consider this only a veneer. It would not make him, 'one of us'. Middle class
could well find him quite acceptable. He no longer looks or speaks like a 'country
bumpkin'.
I note among the questions one about a new character, a 'humorous Mr. Barley'. Alas,
I don't remember Mr. Barley at all, and of course I long since lost my notes. Could
someone remind me who he is?
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Mr. Barley is the father of Clara, the beloved of Herbert Pocket. He's the ex-purser, who sits in his room growling, complaining about gout, drinking rum and doling out the food for the family. He's not really needed for the story, but he's one of those rococo flourishes that Dickens can't resist, and he's pretty funny.
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'He's not really needed for the story.'
I'm cracking up over that PatH. You're right, but so wrong. As a matter of fact, I feel that way about Pumblechook. Until I realized that Dickens brought him into the story to serve as a reality check for himself, as well as the reader. And he does take a lot of flak which might otherwise hurt others in the book.
Mr Barley is the limit of Clara's ancestry. Herbert makes a point of telling Pip that she has no grandfather, which is not going to go over too well with Herbert's mother, who's distinguished grandfather is her claim to social distinction.
What's difficult about being a gentleman. You've answered it yourself, Babi. Fighting boredom isn't easy. Nights at the club are a trial. Debts are a headache. Pip has nothing good to say about it. The soul-searching it has brought on for him must be the toughest part. He has become untrue to himself. And hurt people he loved. When it comes time to recognize Joe for what he is worth, he is described as a sincere and simple christian. Not a gentleman.
Another good point about writers being influenced by earlier writers. Dickens admits to that. Along the way he does mention Frankenstein and creating monsters. I seem to remember reading that? Monsters of one shape or another are almost a dime dozen in this book. Even that aristocratic boor, Drummle. What an irony that Estella chooses him. Is that what she deserves?
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Jonathan
You ask is Drummle what Estella deserves.
Oh goodness no!
She has been used as a tool by Miss Havisham all her life.
She is as much a sufferer as one who causes suffering in others.
I think that I would rather be Magwitch than Estella.
Magwitch has been successful because he has a dream that" it all doesn't end with me." I can do good to one who has done good to me.
This thought has kept him going.
Again we are dealing with expectations and hopes of different generations towards each other. Dickens was an expert in this. That is why his name and writing persists as one of the great writers of our time.
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"I suspect the upper classes
would consider this only a veneer. It would not make him, 'one of us'."
The old problem of "old wealth" versus "new wealth". In real life, Pip wouldn't be accepted, but he would make sure his children went to the "right schools" and acquired the right life style, and that generation (or at worst, the one after) would be accepted. As Dickens says, the "Upper Class" are those whose grandparents were somebody.
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I get the feeling that Estella by not, as she said, treating Pip like the others that she liked him enough to realize Pip deserved better than she was taught to give. And, she did warn him on numerous occasions. She is exacting her revenge (Miss Havisham's) on someone who deserves it - Drummle.
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If Drummle has a heart to break!
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Maybe, maybe not, but she can make his life miserable anyway. I think he was 1) after a trophy wife and 2) out compete Pip for the prize.
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Loved the image of Estella knitting by the fire at Satis House when Pip comes in unexpectedly - surprised at this cozy domestic scene - though I don't know why. I wondered what she was knitting...
Wasn't Pip marvelously effective when he told Estella to choose someone worthier than Drummle - he could take it better.
Clearly she is touched, looking at him incredulously when he tells her she has done him more good than harm. What did he mean by that?
She's not moved enough to change her mind, though, is she? She wants to marry Drummle soon, because she is tired of her life, she says. The marriage is not Miss Havisham's idea - in fact, she had urged her to wait.
I can see why Drummle would want to marry her, Fry- she's beautiful, presentable and due to inherit a great deal of money - he doesn't need a heart for such a marriage.
BUT can anyone explain why marrying Drummle will make Estella happy? Do you think he's threatening her with something, or do you think it is simply that she is tired of her life and wants a change, as she says? Maybe he's the first one to ask her...
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Maybe, maybe not, but she can make his life miserable anyway.
She even says so: "Don't be afraid of my being a blessing to him. I shall not be that".
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Ghastly look on Miss Havisham's face - remorse and pity -
Can't she do something? Perhaps this is Estella's great moment of revenge on this controlling woman who has ruined her life, and any chance of happiness.
Pip leaves Satis House, spent - walks all the way to London. Imagine the exhausted boy when he finally reaches his home, his bed, his pillow, he is handed Wemmick's note, "Don't go home." - Imagine the impact of this writing on Dickens' readers - then and now.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
JULY and August Book Club Online.
GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexfirsteditioncover2.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatextitlepage.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexanniversarycover.jpg)
Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012
Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.
"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illxlvii.gif) | Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1
July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX
VOLUME 2
July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI (XX - XXV)
July 29-August 4 ~ Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII)
August 5-11 ~ Chapters XIV-XX (XXXIII - XXXIX)
VOLUME 3
August 12 -18 ~ Chapters I-VII (XL-XLVI)
August 19-25 ~ Chapters VIII-XIV (XLVII-LIII)
August 26-31 ~ Chapters XV-XX (LIV-LIX) | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/illli.gif) |
Chapter VIII (XLVII)
1. This chapter begins with Pip waiting for a sign from Wemmick that it's time to try to escape from London with Magwitch. Pip says, "It was an unhappy life I lived, and its one dominant anxiety, towering over all its other anxieties like a high mountain above a range of mountains, never disappeared from my view." What is Pip's worst fear?
2. Why des Pip return Magwitch's pocket book?
3. How does Pip spend his time? What evidence do we have of his financial state. Why does Pip forbid Herbert to speak to him of Estella?
4. Pip says he will tell the reader of two meetings. What are the circumstances of Pip's first "meeting" and whom does he encounter?
Chapter IX (XLVIII)
1. Pip tells of his second meeting. It's with Jaggers and Wemmick. What does Jaggers say are the two choices of action for Drumle in relation to Estella? Jaggers thinks it's a toss up. Which do you think is more likely?
2. What observations about Molly does Pip make and what are his conclusions? What information does Wemmick provide to Pip that increase his suspicions about Molly?
Chapter X (XLIX)
1. When Pip responds to Miss Havisham's note to come to her, what is Pip's response to what she can do for his friend, Herbert, and for himself?
2. When Miss Havisham asks about his state of mind and whether Pip can forgive her, do Pip's responses show he has learned some things about himself?
3. What does Miss Havisham relate about Estella's upbringing and her motives?
4. What flashback or foreshadowing brings Pip to return to Miss Havisham's room after he leaves? What is the health of Miss Havisham and of Pip after the fire?
5. What is Miss Havisham's request to Pip concerning Estella?
Chapter XI (L)
1. While Herbert is bandaging Pip, what does he tell Pip about Magwitch's account of his girlfriend and child?
2. What conclusion does Pip share with Herbert about Estella's parents?
Chapter XII (LI)
1. This chapter begins with Pip's words: "What purpose I had in view when I was hot on tracing out and proving Estella's parentage, I cannot say. It will presently be seen that the question was not before me in a distinct shape, until it was put before me by a wiser head than my own." What (indirect) advice does Pip get from Jaggers? Do you agree with it?
2. What do you think of the interesting exchange that occurred between Jaggers and Wemmick? What new sides do you see in these two men?
Chapter XIII (LII)
1. What good thing does Pip complete at the beginning of this chapter?
2. After Pip gets word from Wemmick that it's time to put their plan into action, he receives an anonymous letter to meet someone –alone-- at the sluice-house by the limekiln, to receive information about his "uncle Provis." Who do you think wrote the letter? Do you think Pip should go?
3. What do you think Pip means when he makes the following reflection after hearing the landlord of an inn talk about Pumblechook: "I had never been struck at so keenly, for my thanklessness to Joe, as through the brazen impostor Pumblechook. The falser he, the truer Joe; the meaner he, the nobler Joe."
Chapter XIV (LIII)
1. Where you surprised at who meets Pip at the sluice-house? Why does Pip think he is doomed and who does he think about?
2. How is Pip saved?
Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1400/1400-h/1400-h.htm#2HCH0001); Dickens and Victorian Education (http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/schools-and-education/victorian-education.html); Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dickens/ge/huangcd.html); The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/bazalgette_joseph.shtml); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/cross13.htm) |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Well, I have finished! Comments pending...
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It does seem that Estella is fulfilling the role for which Miss Havisham has groomed her all her life. She has picked Drummle to "take down" since he seems to be one of the most despicable characters. Estella knows she will not be happy and it's likely, as Jude says, she doesn't think she deserves happiness, but I wonder if she thinks she is invincible. I'm worried that Drummle is going to harm her.
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Ah, yes! THAT Mr. Barley! I don't know how amusing I find him. He's a pretty unpleasant,
miserable old sod. (That's a British term; I'm not sure exactly what it means,so I hope it's
not anything vulgar. 8) )
I don't know that Estella 'deserves' Drummle...he's a cruel man...but marriage to him would
certainly undeceive her about her 'power' over men and her own cynical judgment.
As Dickens says, the "Upper Class" are those whose grandparents were somebody
. And the sad thing, JOANK, is that subsequent generations preen themselves in their grandparents prestige, and often accomplish nothing themselves.
I don't think Estella expects to be happy in her marriage to Drummle, JOANP. I think she
expects simply to have the lifestyle she wants, to be independent of Miss Havisham, and to
rule Drummle as she has all other males of her acquaintance. As I remarked above, I fear
she is in for a painful readjustment of 'exectations'. I have to agree with MARCIE. I also
fear that Drummle may actually harm her.
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I agree, Marcie and Babi, Estella doesn't really understand what she's getting into. It's too bad she can't just not marry, but I presume Miss Havisham wouldn't stand for that.
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But it seems that Miss Havisham is now aware that Estella is making a bad choice, after hearing Pip's outburst and poor opinion of her intended. I'm wondering who paid for the wedding - where the wedding took place. Surely not in Satis House.
I wasn't aware of Pip's negative feelings regarding Drummle's character - until he learned that he was a serious contender for Estella's hand, were you? Weren't they BROTHER Finches? Fellow students? Of course Pip sees him for what he is, but there was no real animosity between them, was there? The scene in front of the fire at the Blue Boar was hilarious - I remember similar scenes with my sister - similar scenes between my sons, pressing elbows at the dinner table... But this was a serious situation at the Blue Boar - Pip and Drummle determined not to give in on the matter of Estella. It seems that Pip was the one who caved, doesn't it? Wasn't there anything else he could have done to stop the marriage?
"Comments Pending"....Fry, I hope it doesn't mean we won't be hearing your observations on these chapters for the next two weeks? You don't want to give the plot away, but there is so much here, besides the twists in the plot. We would really miss you, if that's what you mean...
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JoanP, I just don't want to get too far ahead of the conversation with my comments.
Drummle was something of a bully, I think, and arrogant. Pip didn't like him early on and couldn't understand why Mr. Jaggers paid so much attention to him at that dinner. I really had to laugh at Pip and Drummle in the scene at the Blue Boar. What a childish, "who flinches first" type of encounter.
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Waiting for a Finch to flinch! It would be wonderful to get more comments like that, Frybabe. It's almost too late in the game to withhold other comments that might prove to be very interesting or provocative to discussion. Strike while the iron is hot...as they would say down at the forge.
So many interesting comments in the last dozen posts, which reflect the growing tensions in this remarkable drama. I like Pat's: 'Estella doesn't really understand what she is getting into.'
Granted that she has had a very sheltered upbringing and has only gotten to know the big outside world since being sent to Brighton for a 'finishing' course in the way of the world. Except for a little part of her seen through Pip's besotted eyes, the reader has been given no chance to get to know her. A mind of her own has been hinted at. I don't think she cares to be Miss Havisham's sacrificial goat. More likely she wants to be avenged on her. The last thing in the world she would want is to break the heart that was once allowed to kiss her.
I've also finished the book. Estella remains a mystery in the end. Her busy little hands, in the knitting scene, observed so closely by Pip, turn out to reveal something very significant. We're never told what she is knitting. Perhaps a new sock for Miss Havisham. The one foot is bare.
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Jonathan, you have such a well-honed sense of humor! I love your sock comment.
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SPOILER ALERT IF you haven't finished the book do not read this post.!
Remembering that Pip was hiding a known fugitive and was instrumental in trying to get him away, I am surprised he wasn't arrested for aiding and abetting a wanted man. He was arrested for debt, but that got paid off by Joe. Pip was stupid not to take Wemmick's advice about the "portable property".
The laws were different then, but how did the crown get to take physical property owned Australia. I forget when Australia became a sovereign nation of its own. Also, Dickens wrote that there was no paperwork or other regarding Pip getting the property, but what about the arrangements through Jaggers? Don't the written instructions from Magwitch count for anything. It was stipulated that Pip would get property as well as money, I think. I guess intent is not near as good as a name actually on a deed or bank accounts.
Pemmblechook was true to himself to the end. Pip finally told him off, but P just turned it around and, once again, made Pip look like an ingrate. The townspeople reverted to treating him indifferently at the least. That episode at Pip's old home town reminded me of Tom Wolfe's book and oft quoted phrase, You Can Never Go Home Again.
I did like the ending they settled on better than the first. I cannot see Estella remarrying. I like to think that Pip may eventually find another to love. Even more I like to think that Pip and Estella correspond and become/remain friends from a distance. But that would be another story.
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A number of us have not finished the book - and since it is in many ways a mystery, we have to ask that you not go beyond the chapters in the discussion schedule in the heading. If you have finished, please keep in mind that others have not.
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Fry, when you wrote that Pip was confused at Mr. Jagger's interest in Drummle at that dinner, it occurred to me that he may have recognized Drummle for what he really was - a future client who would one day be of need of his services. :o
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JOANP, Drummle's attitude toward Pip has been one of contempt from the beginning. He missed
no opportunity to sneer. They may have been members of the same club, but the animosity was
definitely there. As to the marriage, he remonstrated with Estella, with Miss Havisham, and
confronted Drummle. I don't know what else he could have done.
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Babi - I thought Estella's hesitation interest - with a little more from Pip, doesn't it? But what does he have to offer her? He knows now that Miss H. is not his benefactor. I'll bet she would have helped him though. She is opposed to the marriage to Bentley Drummle. She asks Pip several times what she might do for him. The only thing he asks for is help paying for Herbert's partnership. This makes an impression on her - she immediately writes an order for the amount needed. But she seems to want to help Pip too, doesn't she?
Don't you think the marriage took place rather quickly? Did they elope? I can't see Bentley's mama consenting to the marriage without some sort of background check - at least reassurance that Estella came from the right background. I guess Estella's grandparents weren't as important to her as Miss Havisham's money...
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Finally we're getting the story about Miss Havisham's fiance - and her step-brother too. They were in on the scam together. Funny we should get the story from Magwitch. Do I have this right? The other convict he was fighting with in the marshes was Compeyson? I get Compeyson and Arthur mixed up. I'm assuming that Arthur is Miss Havisham's step-brother? His surname is Arthur? He's frighted to Death - literally, afraid that "she" is coming after him.
And Compeyson was Miss Havisham's jilting fiance? Am I right? This could get very interesting if they come face to face...
I'm not sure why Compeyson would be following Magwitch though. Wouldn't he be frightened that Magwitch is here in London for revenge? He knows nothing about Pip's dealings with Magwitch in the past - so why would he be hiding in Pip's stairwell? Did he follow Magwitch? Wemmick confirms that Compeyson is in London - how would Wemmick know this?
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I thought it was Orlick who was in the stairwell. Was he the one who put Compeyson onto Magwitch?
JoanP, you have Arthur and Compeyson right. I was waiting for a show down between Ms. Havisham and Compeyson too. I forget what happened to Arthur.
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I forget what happened to Arthur.
He drank himself to death. We saw the end, with him screaming in his delirium that Miss H. was coming at him carrying his shroud, then collapsing, dead.
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What a cad that Compeyson is. I'm picturing those old-time villains twirling their moustache and tying women to train tracks. He seems to be a coward too. I would think that he would send someone to spy on Magwitch rather than watch him himself.
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I guess Dickens included Arthur's death to remove any question about who will inherit the Havisham fortune. I half expected him to show up again at Satis House....
Somehow I can't imagine Orlick in the big city - how does he even know Compeyson? Does this mean that Compeyson has been back in the village - that close to Miss Havisham?!!! Oh my!
I 've been wondering how Joe is getting on at the forge. He's alone now with Orlick and Biddy gone. Pip seems to have forgotten about him - every thought of loyalty and concern has been transferred to Magwitch. How did this come about? Do you find it altogether believable?
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Compeyson are intractable enemies. Magwictch will automatically get the death penalth if he
is caught in England, and Compeyson wants to see that happen. I believe it's only because
Pip and Herbert arranged to move Magwitch immediately that he wasn't caught and arrested
sooner. I don't know Wemmick learned Compeyson was in London. I would suppose his
connections with the legal and criminal elements bring such bits of information to him all
the time.
I would have an even harder time imagining how Orlick would have come into contact with
Compeyson. That is stretching coincidence to the limit.
I 've been wondering how Joe is getting on at the forge. He's alone now with Orlick and Biddy gone. Pip seems to have forgotten about him - every thought of loyalty and concern has been transferred to Magwitch. How did this come about? Do you find it altogether believable?
I hadn't thought about that aspect of it, JOAN. But now that you point it
out, I think I can find it believable. Haven't you found in your own experience, that in times of
crisis you are fully focused on the necessities of the moment? Time enough to deal with other
issues after the critical one is dealt with?
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every thought of loyalty and concern has been transferred to Magwitch
Pip has taken on a sense of responsibility for Magwitch because he put his life in jeopardy just on his (Pip's) account. He is also showing more compassion toward Magwitch after hearing his story.
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I finished the book but the ideas are still so much with me.
The whole question of "Expectations" are found everywhere. In her last book, Nora Ephron has this paragraph:
"I always hoped that he (her Father) would show some interests in my kids, but he didn't even remember their names. .....
You always think that a bolt of lightning is going to strike and your parents will magically change into the people you wish they were.......But they're never going to. And even though you know they're never going to , you still hope they will"
And in the Smithsonians magazine of 2-2012 devoted to the 200th anniversary of Dickens birth we find this:
"Dickens had fathered ten children and micromanaged their lives, and pushed all to succeed but one by one they fell short of his expectations. He expected his sons to be like him but they couldn't be.......many escaped abroad to Australia, Canada and India, often at their father's urging"
I hope this seguay is not too out of place. i will rejoin the discussion whenit moves to the last chapters.
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Poor Dickens. The children fell short of his expectations. So did his wife. So did his mother. And Dad was a disappointment.
Who in the book has the greatest expectations? And worked harder at making them come true? Wouldn't it be Magwitch? And Pip is reluctant to disappoint him.
Isn't it ironic that Compeyson, the cad that he is, should be Magwitch's idea of a gentleman. Mainly because, it seems, it's the gentleman who gets the breaks in a court of law.
'When we was put in the dock, I noticed first of all wot a gentleman Compeyson looked, wi' his curly hair and his black clothes and his white pocket-handkerchief, and wot a common sort of wretch I looked....And when we're sentenced, ain't it him as gets seven year, and me fourteen.'
This book leaves one feeling haunted.
JoanP asks: 'But what does he (Pip) have to offer Estella?' I think it's even a bigger mystery: what does Estella want? What expectations does she have? Anything but romance, it seems. She's seen enough of that.
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What does Orlick have to do with Compeyson and Magwitch. If that was him on the stairwell, it could be that he is stalking Pip for his own good reasons.
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I think it's even a bigger mystery: what does Estella want? What expectations does she have? Anything but romance, it seems. She's seen enough of that.
I wonder that too. We see how emotionally damaged she is, and unable to love, we see that she's bored with the fashionable life of London, but what would interest her, what would she be happy doing, how could she relate to another?
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Dickens shows a lot of understanding of individuals but/and he didn't have the benefit/burden of the extensive psychologizing that is part of 20-21st century America. It seems likely to me that his view of how any of his characters grow and develop after childhood trauma is more "romantic" than ours. I'm trying to think of characters in his other books. Didn't Scrooge wake up a changed man after his nightime visits of ghosts? Oliver Twist turned out contented after his childhood on the streets. I'm purposely not reading the last pages of the book yet and don't remember the ending from 50 years ago. I am wondering about the new expectations of both Estella and Pip.
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As she is now, I very much fear that nothing could really make Estella happy. I suspect
the entire notion of happiness is a fairy tale to her. Her only goal seems to be to do what
she must, and otherwise please herself in whatever she can.
It seems evident that there will be some sort of confrontation between Compeyson and
Magwitch. I do hope it means Compeyson gets his come-uppance, but I don't see how it
could end well in any other respect.
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I just now realized that we are not finishing the book until this coming Friday. For some reason, I thought it was today. Duh!
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you're not the only one...I thought we were on the last segment as well
Deb
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Actually, our schedule goes out until August 31, a week from Friday. This week's focus is: August 19-25 ~ Chapters VIII-XIV (XLVII-LIII).
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Chapter VIII (XIV) begins with Pip waiting for a sign from Wemmick that it's time to try to escape from London with Magwitch. Pip says, "It was an unhappy life I lived, and its one dominant anxiety, towering over all its other anxieties like a high mountain above a range of mountains, never disappeared from my view." What is Pip's worst fear?
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What a section! Full of action, suspense, and revelations.
Pip's worst fear is that Magwitch will be discovered and taken or killed, either through accident, or the efforts of Compeyson. It's interesting to speculate how much he is afraid for Magwitch's safety and how much for himself--that he will be disgraced by his association with the convict. Whatever the mixture at the start, his fears for Magwitch's well-being seem to take over as he becomes more sympathetic to M.
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I agree with you, Pat. Pip definitely grows to care about Magwitch as he realizes how Magwitch has made Pip the center of his life. He's put his own life in jeopardy to be with Pip.
I think it's Pip's loyalty to Magwitch that enables him to grow as a man. The "high mountain" of his fear for Magwitch, has put the "range of mountains" that are his other anxieties (chiefly about Joe and Estella) temporarily in the background.
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From hot and sunny Disney -7 excited grandchildren who want to gogogo every minute! Yesterday we "did" Epcot right from the plane. Today we're off to Animal Kingdom - at 7:30- have n't even had breakfast yet! Mercy!
I' m one who hasn't finished the book yet. Please don't tell me what happens! I do remember that Dickens wrote two endings though. If you are ever in doubt where we are in the discussion, just check the table on the top of each page with the questions Marcie has provided for this week, okay?
I've a question for you this morning - about Magwitch's wallet of money. Where is it right now? Does he have it with him on the boat as the boys try to get him out of England? Or did he leave it back in his room with Clara and he father. I do remember that Wemmick advised Pip to take this "portable property" from him- Pip followed that advice, didn't he? But then he gave it back - I forgot why - but where is it now? Surely not on the boat. Can you fill in this spotty memory?
Off to Animal Kingdom!i
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Right now, it's Wednesday morning, the boat is standing empty, Magwitch is waiting at Mill Pond Bank, with the money, and Pip, Herbert, and Startop are about to drink their coffee and set off. Presumably the money will go with Pip and Magwitch to finance their trip.
Pip gave the money to Magwitch because he is determined not to touch a penny of it, but he'll have trouble not letting Magwitch use it when they're abroad.
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Q. Why does Pip forbid Herbert to speak to him of Estella?
It seems that Pip asked Herbert not to speak to him of Estella, because he did not want to
hear whether she was married or anything about her married life.
It's plain enough that Pip it not using Magqitch's money and is hurting financially. Creditors
are pursuing him and he is selling his jewelry and small articles for cash. And he is spending much of his time rowing on the Thames, building up both strength and the appearance of normality for
his great escape plan.
Yes, I think it's fair to say this is now the engrossing effort of his life.
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No thoughtful reader could ever be finished with this book!i. Have fun with the kids, Joan, and don't let Pip's fears prevent you from having a wonderful time.
Pip's fears have brought out the best in him. Compassion for a fellow human being. Magwitch's instincts about Pip, back in the marsh, were right. Pip was the boy to be helped to a better life. At the same time, I find myself wondering about Pip's pride. Isn't it pride that has him turning down a suitcase full of cash (in one movie version).
I keep thinking of what Marcie posted about Dickens's knowledge of human nature, and his exposition of it without the benefit of our modern psycholigical tools. I liked the term, 'psychologizing'. In the end, it seems to me, Dickens succeeds in making sympathetic characters out of all of them. We have to feel sorry for Estella and Pip. And for Miss Havisham and Magwitch just as much.
I'm in the middle of Chapter X, overwhelmed by the dramatic heart-to-heart between Miss Havisham and Pip'.
'What have I done! What have I done!
What a cry from the heart! And what a psychologizing train of thought runs through Pip's mind:
'I knew not how to answer, or how to comfort her. That she had done a grievous thing in taking an impressionable child to mould into the form that her wild resentment, spurned affection, and wounded pride, found vengeance in, I knew full well. But that, in shutting out the light of day, she had shut out infinitely more; that, in seclusion, she had secluded herself from a thousand natural and healing influences; that, her mind, brooding solitary, had grown diseased, as all minds do and must and will that reverse the appointed order of their Maker: I knew equally well. And could I look upon her without compassion, seeing her punishment in the ruin she was in, in her profound unfitness for this earth on which she was placed, in the vanity of sorrow which had become a master mania, like the vanity of penitence, the vanity of remorse, the vanity of unworthiness, and other monstrous vanities that have been curses in this world.'
What have I done! I stole her heart away and put ice in its place.'
Vanity! All is vanity! What a passage. Was Dickens psychologizing or moralizing? I can see now why Dostoyevsky came to England to visit Dickens.
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Jonathan
I'm so glad you put that paragraph up.
For me , it was the most impressive in the book.
Remember Dickens preceded Freud who was entranced by his books.
Pat
Nice picture!
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Joan, I hope that the children wear out a bit from all of the excitement before you and the parents do!
I think that Pat is right -- that the money will be used to finance the trip. In Pip's mind, it's just until he can get Magwitch somewhere safe abroad and then his intent is to tell Magwitch he can't accept the money.
Babi, yes, Pip is out of cash and has to sell off items. It looks like he owes money to many merchants. I think that Pip fears that Estella is married to Brummle but he doesn't want to face up to that awful fact. I think his feelings are more protective toward Estella rather than jealous of Brummle. My understanding of Pip is that he continues to love Estella but now without hope of being with her.
Jonathan, what a profound statement: "No thoughtful reader could ever be finished with this book!" You point out the great capacity for human understanding that Dickens was able to embody in his characters. Last evening, I watched a program about Oscar Hammerstein II, the American lyricist and playwright. His son said that he very much cared about the characters for whom he wrote the script and songs they communicated in the musicals he created. They were living people to him. I think Dickens must have felt the same. Jude, I too was struck by that remarkable paragraph when Pip reflects on Miss Havisham's remorse.
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Not GE, I know, but -- I was, once again, cruising Project Gutenberg and found a volume of Dickens poems and verse. I particularly liked this one:
A CHILD’S HYMN
Hear my prayer, O! Heavenly Father,
Ere I lay me down to sleep;
Bid Thy Angels, pure and holy,
Round my bed their vigil keep.
My sins are heavy, but Thy mercy
Far outweighs them every one;
Down before Thy Cross I cast them,
Trusting in Thy help alone.
Keep me through this night of peril
Underneath its boundless shade;
Take me to Thy rest, I pray Thee,
When my pilgrimage is made.
None shall measure out Thy patience
By the span of human thought;
None shall bound the tender mercies
Which Thy Holy Son has bought.
Pardon all my past transgressions,
Give me strength for days to come;
Guide and guard me with Thy blessing
Till Thy Angels bid me home.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
JULY and August Book Club Online.
GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexfirsteditioncover2.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatextitlepage.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexanniversarycover.jpg)
Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012
Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.
"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/ill54-56.gif) | Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1
July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX
VOLUME 2
July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI (XX - XXV)
July 29-August 4 ~ Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII)
August 5-11 ~ Chapters XIV-XX (XXXIII - XXXIX)
VOLUME 3
August 12 -18 ~ Chapters I-VII (XL-XLVI)
August 19-25 ~ Chapters VIII-XIV (XLVII-LIII)
August 26-31 ~ Chapters XV-XX (LIV-LIX) | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/ill57-59.gif) |
Chapter XV (LIV)
1. Do you think it was inconsistent for Magwitch to have risked his freedom to find Pip? Does he seem at all concerned that he might never make it out of London to freedom?
2. The Custom House officers allowed Pip to change Magwitch's clothes, but needed to take all of his possessions. What was the significance of this? Why should this sadden Pip?
Chapter XVI (LV)
1. Mr. Jaggers, though angry with Pip for letting Magwitch's property slip through his fingers, will try to save some his holdings abroad. Is there a difference between his "portable property" in that purse - and his land holdings abroad? Is everything forfeited to the crown?
2. Mr. Wemmick, though dismayed with Pip for not accepting portable property as he had advised, remains his friend, and invites him, as his best man on that 'morning walk.' Why do you think Dickens included this humorous wedding sketch in such detail?
Chapter XVII (LVI)
1. Who does Pip consider more of a father figure - Joe or Magwitch?
2. What made the Jury decide Magwitch deserved the death sentence? What is Pip's reaction to this decision?
Chapter XVIII (LVII)
1. How did Joe hear of Pip's illness? What "onnecessary" details is Joe keeping from Pip as he recovers?
2. When Pip heard that Joe had paid his creitors, he decided to go to work at the forge and marry Biddy until he repaid him. What did you think of his plan? Would this have been an appropriate happy ending for the story?
Chapter XIX (LVIII)
1. Was Pumblechook right, after all? Had Pip really squandered his opportunities with his own great expectations?
2. The forge is silent when Pip arrives, locked for the day. Did you see that marriage coming?
Chapter XX (LIX)
1. Did Dickens leave us with the promise of a happily-ever-after ending for Pip and Estella or not? Do you think this book needed or deserved a happy ending?
2. Do these three versions of the final line of the published edition, indicate a conflict in Dickens' mind concerning the ending?
~ ‘I saw no shadow of another parting from her’ ~ the standard reading in editions since 1862, presumably authorised by Dickens,
~ but the first editions read ‘I saw the shadow of no parting from her’,
~ while the manuscript in Dickens' hand, reads ‘I saw the shadow of no parting from her, but one.’
3. Did the edition you are reading include Dickens' original ending (http://www.digitaldickens.com/content.php?id=26), which was unpublished during his lifetime? Why do you think Dickens changed this ending before final publication?
Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1400/1400-h/1400-h.htm#2HCH0001); Dickens and Victorian Education (http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/schools-and-education/victorian-education.html); Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dickens/ge/huangcd.html); The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/bazalgette_joseph.shtml); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/cross13.htm);
ORIGINAL ENDING, unpublished during Dickens' lifetime (http://www.digitaldickens.com/content.php?id=26) |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
I can see now why Dostoyevsky came to England to visit Dickens.
Oh, yes, JONATHAN. Dostoyevsky was, in his gloomier Russian way, as great at probing the
human psyche as Dickens. He would certainly have been drawn to Dickens, and vice versa, I
would tink. But Dickens is so much easier to read, don't you think?
I hope that the children wear out a bit from all of the excitement before you and the parents do!
Futile hope, MARCIE. Kids can run themselves to sheer exhaustion, flop down for 10-15
minutes, and jump up fully restored and ready to go again!]
I hope in all the drama, we are not missing the marvelous background, the London of Dickens'
day. The lamplighters scarcely able to find room to plant their ladders, because of the bustle
of the crowds. Working by candlelight, candle-snuffing. You find yourself right there with
them.
What do you think of Jaggers bringing up Estella and Drummle in his dinner conversation with
Pip? It did seem to me that he wanted Pip to be aware of what could possibly happen. Is this
his way of doing what he can to help Estella now? His evaluation of the relationship seems
entirely accurate. "If he should turn to and beat her, he may possibly get the strength
on his side; if it should be a question of intellect, he certainly will not."
Who was it that posted, that Dickens is gradually showing the better side of all the characters?
I will except Drummle and Compeyson, but I believe it's certainly true of the others.
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Of course, Babi, you're right. Dickens is so much easier to read. Is it because the feeling and emotions, the thinking, are all so familiar to us, compared to the Russian ways? Haven't we all grown up with the prayer of Dickens's Child's Hymn?
What a road Pip has travelled since we first met him musing about his beginnings and his fateful encounter with Magwitch in the marsh country. But how did Estella arrive at her place in the story? At last we get to hear about her strange fate in life. Near the end of Chapter X, the remorseful Miss Havisham exclaims:
'When she first came, I meant to save her from misery like mine.'
We know that she came, after Mr Jaggers had been asked to find a child for her. And he in turn, having Molly and her child on his hands, and feeling certain that he was saving the child from a dismal future, passed Estella along to Miss Havisham. Another moving scene in which Jaggers tells Pip about it:
'Put the case that he (I, the lawyer, Jaggers) lived in an atmosphere of evil, and that all he saw of children, was their being generated in great numbers for certain destruction. Put the case that he often saw children solemnly tried at a criminal bar, where they were held up to be seen; put the case that he habitually knew of their being imprisoned, whipped, transported, neglected, cast out, qualified in all ways for the hangman, and growing up to be hanged. Put the case that pretty nigh all the childern he saw in his daily business life, he had reason to look upon as so much spawn, to devilop into the fish that were to come to his net - to be prosecuted, defended, forsworn, made orphans, be be-devilled somehow.' Chapter XII.
Doesn't that break your heart. The lucky children got to learn the Child's Hymn. But how about Estella? What was she saved from? What a strange fate awaited this poor little girl when she was born. What an irony. They agree among themselves that it would be best not to tell Estella about her parentage!!!
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Babi, you say "I hope in all the drama, we are not missing the marvelous background, the London of Dickens'
day." That's a very good point. I'll re-read a few sections just to try to capture some of the background of the times.
Jonathan, what a terrible fate Jaggers describes for the poor children. . . "he habitually knew of their being imprisoned, whipped, transported, neglected, cast out, qualified in all ways for the hangman, and growing up to be hanged." It reminds me of the description of Magwitch's life. From his first memories, he was born to be fit only for prison.
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On a side note, I am currently reading one of Anne Perry's series set in Victorian England.
This series includes a remarkable character, Lady Vespasia Cumming-Gould, an elderly woman,
still beautiful, wealthy, influential, but far from typical. She was a revolutionary in her youth.
To quote her, "Privilege of birth is a duty, not an achievement!" I thought I would mention
Perry's character as a contrast to the general run of aristocrats in fiction, including Dickens.
I fully acknowledge, up front, that she is no doubt the exception, not the rule. :)
Knowing what we know now, we can recognize those little jolts of memory that Pipe was
experiencing with Estella. The fleeting expression, the movement of the hands, which he
could never quite associate with the housekeeper he had seen at Jaggers'. I also realized,
once I learned how violent a temperament Molly had, that Jaggers was not being gratuitously
cruel to her. To put it in more contemporary terms, the was 'keeping the lid on'. One
more indication that Jaggers is not entirely the villain we originally thought.
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Yes, Jaggers is looking better than he did at first; he has some heart, though he keeps it well hidden. I wonder how he felt when he saw how Miss Havisham was bringing up Estella? Of course it's at least better than the life an unrescued Estella would have led, assuming she survived.
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Babi, you mention the gaslights in the streets and getting about by candle. I was struck by how often people had to go about in the dark. Little Pip has to go upstairs to bed without a candle, and although he can get down again in the dark, he has to wait for a touch of dawn to steal the food for Magwitch--he dassn't light a candle because the noise of flint and steel might wake Joe or Mrs. Joe. (A footnote says that people first started using matches in 1827.) The night Magwitch arrives, Pip wakes up in the middle of the night, having let the candles and fire go out, and he has to grope his way down the stairs in the darkness and find the watchman to give him a light.
And how about the scene when Pip, obeying the note DON'T GO HOME, spends the night in a turkish bath, lit by the dim light coming through the perforations of the rushlight-holder, wondering how many insects are in the canopy of the bed, and imagining they are falling down on his face.
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Babi, thanks for that contrasting character from the upper class. You're right that Jaggers seems more "human" in recent chapters, especially in the exchange that occurred between Jaggers and Wemmick in his office when Pip mentions Wemmick's home life.
PatH, you're right about the many references to the light and darkness. Not being able to rely on a lightswitch would make my life very different. I only experience that when the power goes out for a short time.
That scene about Pip's worrying about insects was quite vivid. Ugh!!
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So, when was the last time you spent a week on roller coasters and other more hair raising rides? Not for a while, I'll bet. But what if you have a grandchild pulling at your hand to take him on the Tower of Terror and another on to Splash Mountain and another and another... Actually getting soaked on Splash Mountain was a welcome relief in this heat!
Disney with seven little ones has taken years off my life - or added years, depending on the time of day...
I've loved coming in at the end of a long day and reading your posts - though I am so exhausted at the end of each day, I just can't gather thoughts and thumb-type on my iPad, as magical as it is.
I wonder about your reaction to the revelation of Estella's parentage? Did you see that coming? I thought she would come from humble background, but this was really humble! Can anyone describe what happened with Molly? That's all a blur.
I agree, Jagger's has softened - probably because he knows what a bad sort is her husband. He feels responsible and is trying to justify his own actions on behalf of his client - something he is not accustomed to doing.
Time to begin yet another "MAGICAL" day...hope yours is equally so!
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Pip was able to complete his arrangement for Herbert with the money Miss Havisham gave him.
I suppose he felt he had a right to that money, but not to Magwitch's. Herberts' success was
very important to him. I had the great satisfaction of concluding that arrangement. "It was
the only good thing I had done, and the only completed thing I had done, since I was first
apprised of my great expectations."
I was quite alarmed when Pip received that mysterious letter at the last minute. I was
thinking, "Don't go! Don't go!" I was sure that it must be Compeyson; who else would have
been watching and would know Magwitch had returned? And Compeyson is a very dangerous man.
Still, it's coming just as they were getting ready to move Magwitch did suggest that their
escape plan might be known. He had to find out, didn't he?
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"I was struck by how often people had to go about in the dark." And even when thry had light, it was often one little candle for the whole room. Hard to imagi
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'yet another "MAGICAL" day...hope yours is equally so!'
We're all very envious, Joan, of the wonderful time you're having with the grandchildren. If it's taking years off your life, remember the old saying: an hour of busy life is worth an age without a name. And didn't Dickens find a lot of excitement for his readers on the Thames River. Horrors! That poor man dressed in the clothes of poor, drowned souls! Will Magwitch succeed in escaping the gallows?
Molly was his wife. Now she is one of Jaggers trophies, like the head-casts of hanged men on his wall. A wild beast tamed, according to Wemmick. An extremely jealous women as proved in court. Very strong wrists, and hands - just like Estella's. Before Disney there was Dickens for unusual thrills.
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Your're right, JoanK. Wandering about in the dark can have a lot of magic in it.
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JoanP, thank you for checking in even though your 7 grands have exhausted you. I have the same question you do, or a similar one. I couldn't tell exactly who was who (between Molly and the "other" woman she presumably murdered) when Wemmick (in Chapter 48) tells Pip Molly's story. Who was jealous of whom? Was Magwitch the husband of the other woman or the common-law-husband or lover of Molly? We now know Magwitch and Molly are Estella's mother and father.
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Magwitch was the informal husband of Molly; they had been married "over the broomstick", and had been together for some years. I was surprised to see this term used in an English novel; I thought it was an American South thing. Slaves couldn't marry, so they would express their intentions in a ceremony which included jumping over a broomstick, and getting married this way was described as jumping over the broomstick.
The other woman, who Molly presumably killed, is not well explained. She is older and stronger, and Molly was jealous of her, and I think we don't know anything more.
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Thanks, Pat, for the clarification. It's interesting to note the "broomstick" phrase.
Wemmick mentions that he thinks that there is Gypsy blood in Molly. Wikipedia says "Historically, "broom-stick weddings" were first known in Wales. There has been dispute among scholars over whether the tradition originated among the Welsh people themselves or among Romani [gypsies] living in Wales.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_broom
According to scholar Alan Dundes, who wrote extensively on the topic, the custom originated among Romani Gypsies in Wales (Welsh Kale Gypsies) and England (English Romanichal Gypsies). Scholar C.W. Sullivan III, however, argued that the custom originated among the Welsh people themselves, since the custom was known in Wales prior to the 1700s when he believed Gypsies arrived there. Historical records, however, show that Gypsies actually arrived in Wales earlier, in 1579."
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If I'm not mistaken, PatH, it wasn't only slaves who 'jumped over the broomstick'. In
pioneering communities, where a traveling preacher only showed up occasionally, couples
would marry in this symbolic fashion, and then formalize the marriage the next time a preacher
was available.
Well, we were right to be alarmed at Pip's responding to that note. I really was not
expecting Orlick! Orlick could not have written a letter like that, so who did? He knows Pip caused him to lose his job on the Havisham estate, and believes he turned Biddy against him. He was always a violent man and now he fully intends murder.
Look at Pip's thoughts on this occasion: "Estella's father would believe I had
deserted him, would be taken, would die accusing me; even Herbert would doubt me;.....
Joe and Biddy would never know how sorry I had been that night; none would ever know what
I had suffered, how true I had meant to be...." Can anyone doubt that such an experience would be life-changing, and that Pip could never lose sight again of what mattered most?
So, the letter is explained. Any doubts about who Orlick's new buddy is? And as suspected,
he was the one who attacked Pip's sister. I begin to think that this episode is Dickens way of
tying up a lot of loose ends for us.
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Pip was able to complete his arrangement for Herbert with the money Miss Havisham gave him.
I suppose he felt he had a right to that money, but not to Magwitch's.
The contrast interests me. Pip has sort of earned consideration from Miss H. He has danced attendance on her for many years, and she deliberately let him believe that she was his benefactress, keeping him tied to her this way. She has offered him help. Most importantly, he isn't asking for money for himself, but to help a friend. He takes nothing for himself.
When Magwitch first appeared, Pip was appalled by this rough-looking, maybe vicious, criminal. For all he knows, M's money is the proceeds of a crime. You can see why he wants no part of it. But now Pip is beginning to see Magwitch as a person, to realize his good qualities. He knows the money was honestly earned, and earned with the specific goal of giving it to Pip. But he still wants no part of the money.
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At the library yesterday in the new books was one: "Dickens and the Workhouse" by Ruth Richardson. It deals with the question of how much of Dickens' description of the plight of children in his time stems from his personal experoience. Apparently, he was very secretive about his personal bad experiences as a child. David Copperfield is the novel where he describes his experiences best, especially working in a blacking factory as a child. But this wasn't recognized til after his death.
This author specifically asks where did Dickens, who was never in a workhouse, get his vivid description in Oliver Twist. It seems he lived a few doors from a workhouse for several periods in his chilhood, and possibly worked alongside children from there.
Dickens is protesting a change in the poor laws. Previously, the poor could obtain assistance in their families. With the new law, they had to go into workhouses, where the families were split up; the children were held in a prisonlike situation (the workhouse) and sent out to work from there.
The book is not very readable, unfortunately, but I'll skim through it, and see what else I see of interest.
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Babi, you say "Can anyone doubt that such an experience would be life-changing, and that Pip could never lose sight again of what mattered most?" That's a good point. Pip seems to reach a greater recognition of his rejection of Joe and Biddy. Dickens does a good job of portraying Pip's sincere remorse and sorrow.
Pat, I agree that the main difference between Pip's taking Miss Havisham's money while rejecting the money from Magwitch is that he doesn't want Miss H's money for himself. He feels he owes it to Herbert.
Thanks for the information about that book, JoanK. Too bad the author isn't a better writer.
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Would you believe, I looked at the last question for this section and absolutely could not recall
how Pip escaped Orlick. I had a vague recollection of someone saving him, but no idea who or
how. I pulled up an on-line GE, to read that again. Trabb's boy, of all people! Herbert, very
worried over Pip's taking off like that, decided to go after him and of course does not find him
where he expected. Stumbles across Trabb's boy, who figures out where Pip might be.
This is one outcome that leans rather heavily on coincidence, I would think.
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Only one day more and we're on to the end. What haven't we talked about yet. Poor Pip is in a sad way physically, burned hands and arms, can't cut up his meat or dress himself, and now his burned arm has been rubbed raw by being tied up. He must be in a lot of pain, too.
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Estella's mother Molly is part Gypsy, which is supposed to explain her jealous, passionate nature. So Estella is part Gypsy too. Where is the passion and jealousy?
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Babi, Dickens does rely on quite a few coincidences in this book but in thinking about some of them, I can see that they might be more likely in his day when people knew everyone else's business and often lived in or around the same place all of their lives.
Pip did (coincidentally -- fortunately) drop the note from Orlick in his house, so they knew where he was going. Of Trabb's boy being their guide, Dickens says "Among the loungers under the Boar's archway, happened to be Trabb's Boy—true to his ancient habit of happening to be everywhere where he had no business—and Trabb's boy had seen me passing from Miss Havisham's, in the direction of my dining-place."
Pat, yes Pip must be in a lot of pain, more so with the assault by Orlick. I'm wondering if the scene with Orlick was to add tension/conflict to the installment? For Dickens to give Pip a chance to review his life and attitude towards Joe? Show Pip's basic goodness (even with his faults) compared with Orlick's evil actions based on envy and jealousy?
Good question, Pat, about Estella's nature. Of course, she wasn't raised by gypsies but by the controlling Miss Havisham. Estella is extremely single-minded. Could that be a result of passion under absolute self-control?
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Well. fun under the baking Orlando sun - torrential downpours and then the freezing Air Conditionning all within an hour's time...
Will need a week to recover, but happy to have made it back in time to chat about the rest of the novel with you this week - and out of Isaac's path. I've so enjoyed all your posts from this past week...Your conclusions about Estella's parentage have added a whole new understanding of how Pip was able to recognize that Molly was her mother - just from her appearance. I thought it sort of far-fetched when I first read it - now it makes sense!
FINAL CHAPTERS! - those hanging back for fear of divulging the ending, FEEL FREE to have your say! We're all on the same pages now!
Dickens seems to be wrapping up the story in these last chapters in his usual methodical way, giving everyone what they deserve. Before we get to the controversy regarding the two endings, let's consider how he gets there - and whether Pip and Estella deserve that happy ending.
Can you think of anything left hanging? (Pardon the pun. :D) Actually, Magwitch never made it to the gallows, did he? Do you think he deserved the death sentence? This wasn't because of his original offense, was it? I forget what that was, does anyone remember? Do you think he had a fair trial? As fair as he could hope for? It seems that Dickens is criticizing the justice system, but where did it fail?
Really, so excited to be back and able to hear your reactions and questions to the rest of the book!
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So Estella is part Gypsy too. Where is the passion and jealousy?
Hmm, good question, PatH. Maybe she was passionate about getting even. I understand
vengeance is a Gypsy tradition, also. And really, the only thing she didn't have and might
be jealous about was the comparative freedom other young women had. Though even that was
very limited, wasn't it? Most young women were expected to marry the man of their parents/
guardian's choice. But Miss Havisham did rob her of the ability to care, to love, that most
humans take for granted.
You're right, MARCIE. In a small village such as Pip's hometown a stranger like Herbert
would be immediately noticed and an object of curious attention. And Trapp's boy was certainly
never a shy type. I very much like your description of Estella's nature as "passion under
absolute self-control". That fits her very well.
JOANP, I don't think there was any question of a trial for Magwitch. He was under a sentence
of death if he ever returned, period. All that was necessary was to confirm that he was indeed
the man under that sentence, which his enemy was happy to do.
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Welcome back Joan! I am glad you are safe from Tropical Storm Isaac.
Actually, Magwitch never made it to the gallows, did he? Do you think he deserved the death sentence? This wasn't because of his original offense, was it? I forget what that was, does anyone remember? Do you think he had a fair trial? As fair as he could hope for? It seems that Dickens is criticizing the justice system, but where did it fail?
In Chapter 42 Pip and Herbert learn from Magwitch that he had been in and out of jail as far back as he could remember. His major crime, passing stolen money, was spearheaded by Compeyson but Magwitch got the longer sentence since he had a previous record and Compeyson was sly enough to put most of the blame on Magwitch. The justice system seemed set up to look more favorably on men who "looked" like gentlemen. Someone like Magwitch would have little chance against someone as unscrupulous and clever as Compeyson.
From Chapter 42:
"At last, me and Compeyson was both committed for felony - on a charge of putting stolen notes in circulation - and there was other charges behind....
When the evidence was giv in the box, I noticed how it was always me that had come for'ard, and could be swore to, how it was always me that the money had been paid to, how it was always me that had seemed to work the thing and get the profit.
But, when the defence come on, then I see the plan plainer; for, says the counsellor for Compeyson, 'My lord and gentlemen, here you has afore you, side by side, two persons as your eyes can separate wide; one, the younger, well brought up, who will be spoke to as such; one, the elder, ill brought up, who will be spoke to as such; one, the younger, seldom if ever seen in these here transactions, and only suspected; t'other, the elder, always seen in 'em and always wi'his guilt brought home. Can you doubt, if there is but one in it, which is the one, and, if there is two in it, which is much the worst one?' And such-like. And when it come to character, warn't it Compeyson as had been to the school, and warn't it his schoolfellows as was in this position and in that, and warn't it him as had been know'd by witnesses in such clubs and societies, and nowt to his disadvantage? And warn't it me as had been tried afore, and as had been know'd up hill and down dale in Bridewells and Lock-Ups? And when it come to speech-making, warn't it Compeyson as could speak to 'em wi' his face dropping every now and then into his white pocket-handkercher - ah! and wi' verses in his speech, too - and warn't it me as could only say, 'Gentlemen, this man at my side is a most precious rascal'? And when the verdict come, warn't it Compeyson as was recommended to mercy on account of good character and bad company, and giving up all the information he could agen me, and warn't it me as got never a word but Guilty?
And when I says to Compeyson, 'Once out of this court, I'll smash that face of yourn!' ain't it Compeyson as prays the Judge to bprotected, and gets two turnkeys stood betwixt us? And when we're sentenced, ain't it him as gets seven year, and me fourteen, and ain't it him as the Judge is sorry for, because he might a done so well, and ain't it me as the Judge perceives to be a old offender of wiolent passion, likely to come to worse?" "
Magwitch and Compeyson are imprisoned on the same prison ship. Magwitch attempts to kill Compeyson. He is taken to the black hole (a solitary confinement cell) after landing his first punch, but he manages to escape some time around Christmas of 1812. This is the time when Magwitch meets Pip and Magwitch attempts to get Compeyson recaptured. When the soldiers find them, Compeyson said that he escaped to get away from Magwitch so his punishment was light. Magwitch was put in irons, retried, and deported to New South Wales for life. If he returned to England he would be put to death.
He never killed anyone. His death sentence seems unfair, although I can understand that the justice system wanted to get rid of such a repeat offender.
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A footnote in my book points out that although illegal re-entry was still a capital crime, by the time the book takes place people were not usually executed for it.
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So it was Compeyson who informed the officials - Do you think the fact that Compeyson died in the struggle in the water influenced the Death penalty. Maybe I shouldn't say this - but it seemed as if Magwitch wanted to die...and wanted to take Compeyson with him, didn't it? Surely he knew there was a good chance they could both drown with the steamer bearing down on them. In a sense, Magwitch killed Compeyson , didn't he, Marcie? Do you see it like that? Dickens knew how to build suspense, didn't he?
The fact that the Jury who passed the sentences singled Magwitch out from the group of 32- mainly because he came returned, got my attention. Pip knew he came back for him. So in a sense, Magwitch died for him, too. I wondered what their life would have been like in Hamburg if they had succeeded in getting away?
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Joan, yes, I kept thinking the story was going to end but Dickens had more and more suspenseful events to include!
I'm not sure that Magwitch did or would have killed Compeyson. He tells Pip in Chapter LIV:
"He added that he did not pretend to say what he might or might not have done to Compeyson, but, that in the moment of his laying his hand on his cloak to identify him, that villain had staggered up and staggered back, and they had both gone overboard together, when the sudden wrenching of him (Magwitch) out of our boat, and the endeavour of his captor to keep him in it, had capsized us. He told me in a whisper that they had gone down, fiercely locked in each other's arms, and that there had been a struggle under water, and that he had disengaged himself, struck out, and swum away.
I never had any reason to doubt the exact truth of what he thus told me. "
I do think that he died for Pip and he always knew that in coming back he was risking his life. He could have given him the money at a distance but he wanted to be with Pip.
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reflecting back when Pip first met M. --how the criminal held him upside down and threatened him in order to obtain food etc., it seems hard to believe that the next day upon receiving all that he had asked for from Pip, that with his capture by the prison guards he should turn his feelings toward what would help him endure his prison time in Australia and put his dreams into making Pip a gentleman
have just finished reading the book and the last two chapters really caught my breath
going to search online now for the alternate ending --did anyone have the second ending included with their edition of the book?
have enjoyed everyone's comments and am reading more about the times surrounding England when this book was supposed to happen
Deb
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I think I prefer the ending in the book over the alternate ending.
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Thanks for reminding me of more of the details of that struggle on the boat, Marcie. I see now that Pip had every reason to believe that Magwitch did not intend to kill Compeyson - but still think that the Jury sentencing Magwitch may have seen it differently and believed that he murdered the man who had informed on him.
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"...the criminal held him upside down and threatened him in order to obtain food etc., it seems hard to believe that the next day upon receiving all that he had asked for from Pip, that with his capture by the prison guards he should turn his feelings toward what would help him endure his prison time in Australia and put his dreams into making Pip a gentleman."
Deb, that was hard to understand, wasn't it? After reading more about Magwitch's background, this seems to have been the first time anyone had shown him any kindness in his life. At that moment, this little boy became the most important person in his life...the son he never had, maybe? Or maybe he saw himself in the lonely little boy - and wanted to give Pip the chance for a better life than he would ever have?
It's Pip that I didn't understand - how he was able to forget Joe, who had been there for him his entire life - and transfer all of his feelings and concern to Magwitch. Does he look at Magwitch as the father he never had? Or am I reading too much into their relationship?
Fry - I'm misunderstanding which ending you are calling the "alternate" ending that you prefer...Dickens wrote the "original ending that he had planned for the novel - and then was talked into changing it by literary friends, who persuaded him his readers would prefer a happy ending. Some editions include the original ending - discovered among Dickens' papers after his death. DEB - there's a link to the original ending in the heading at the top of this page.
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My edition had the alternate ending. I don't remember what the original was; someone will
have to remind me. I rather like this one. Both Pip and Estella had life-altering experiences
that made them both better people. I'm glad they got a second chance at happiness together.
I also prefer to believe that Magwitch, dying, did hear Pip's words to him that his daughter
lived and was a beautiful lady. What a solace that would have been to him.
(I can be realistic when needed, but at heart I love to see justice triumph, love survive, and
the good guys win.)
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Okay, I don't care for the original ending. I cannot see Estella remarried with a child.
My impression of the ending they used, is that Pip and Estella remain friends, but as Estella says, "and will continue friends apart." Pip's ending comment, "I saw the shadow of no parting from her," makes it a little ambiguous though, don't you? I also like the gothic type meeting at Satis House in the "evening mists" better that meeting her in London as she passes by in a coach.
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Although no one knows for sure, not even Magwitch himself, I think M probably did kill Compeyson. M himself says:
He added that he did not pretend to say what he might or might not have done to Compeyson
That's the way a person talks when he isn't quite admitting something. In books it's okay to kill the villain when you're fighting for your life, though, and Magwitch clearly was. Compeyson was too determined for the struggle to be ended by anything less than death.
Certainly the Judge assumed M had killed C. My book points out that in real life Pip and Herbert would have gotten jail terms as accessories after the fact for the escape, even if no murder were proved.
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Babi, I'm sure Magwitch heard Pip's words about his daughter. He squeezed Pip's hand at the right moments and smiled. You notice that Pip waits until the last possible moment, though, deliberately not giving M a chance to ask a lot of questions.
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I read the original ending in the heading. I agree that it is more suitable to the book.
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JoanP, I don't think that Pip has forgotten about Joe. I think he says somewhere that he pushed thoughts of Joe out of his head to deal with the crises at hand--his worries that Magwitch will be caught and hanged for being in the country. Also he indicates repeatedly that he is so ashamed of his forsaking Joe (and Biddy) that he feels that he has no right to see them... that they could never forgive what he did.
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Maybe something like we pushed thoughts of our own parents out of our thoughts when we were Pip's age - trying to deal with other more important concerns.
I couldn't get over how Pip thought he'd just go home - and marry Biddy! Wasn't that a bit presumptuous? I thought he deserved it when he found she had married Joe. What did you think of that marriage? Do you think there was romance there? Did Biddy care for Joe as she once cared for Pip? What did Dickens intend to say with this?
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JULY and August Book Club Online.
GREAT EXPECTATIONS by Charles Dickens
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexfirsteditioncover2.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatextitlepage.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/greatexanniversarycover.jpg)
Title page ~1861
First edition: Price today:$125,000 150th anniversary edition: 2012
Great Expectations was first published in 1860 in serial form, two chapters every week for a mere two-penny. The first hard cover edition was published shortly after that in 1861. Amazingly, his story of Pip, often referred to as the archetypal Dickens hero, has never gone out of print.
"The tale was wildly popular in its day, riddled with many of the themes that fascinated Charles Dickens throughout his literary career. He was drawn especially to social justice and the inequalities inherent to Victorian society. While England was growing rich and powerful in the era of colonialism and the Industrial Revolution, Dickens saw the injustice that ran rampant among the working and lower classes." (Introduction by George Bernard Shaw)
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/ill54-56.gif) | Discussion Schedule
VOLUME 1
July 1-7 ~ Chapters I - VII
July 8-14 ~ Chapters VIII - XIII
July 15-21 ~ Chapters XIV - XIX
VOLUME 2
July 22-28 ~ Chapters I - VI (XX - XXV)
July 29-August 4 ~ Chapters VII-XIII (XXVI - XXXII)
August 5-11 ~ Chapters XIV-XX (XXXIII - XXXIX)
VOLUME 3
August 12 -18 ~ Chapters I-VII (XL-XLVI)
August 19-25 ~ Chapters VIII-XIV (XLVII-LIII)
August 26-31 ~ Chapters XV-XX (LIV-LIX) | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greatexpectations/ill57-59.gif) |
Chapter XV (LIV)
1. Do you think it was inconsistent for Magwitch to have risked his freedom to find Pip? Does he seem at all concerned that he might never make it out of London to freedom?
2. The Custom House officers allowed Pip to change Magwitch's clothes, but needed to take all of his possessions. What was the significance of this? Why should this sadden Pip?
Chapter XVI (LV)
1. Mr. Jaggers, though angry with Pip for letting Magwitch's property slip through his fingers, will try to save some his holdings abroad. Is there a difference between his "portable property" in that purse - and his land holdings abroad? Is everything forfeited to the crown?
2. Mr. Wemmick, though dismayed with Pip for not accepting portable property as he had advised, remains his friend, and invites him, as his best man on that 'morning walk.' Why do you think Dickens included this humorous wedding sketch in such detail?
Chapter XVII (LVI)
1. Who does Pip consider more of a father figure - Joe or Magwitch?
2. What made the Jury decide Magwitch deserved the death sentence? What is Pip's reaction to this decision?
Chapter XVIII (LVII)
1. How did Joe hear of Pip's illness? What "onnecessary" details is Joe keeping from Pip as he recovers?
2. When Pip heard that Joe had paid his creitors, he decided to go to work at the forge and marry Biddy until he repaid him. What did you think of his plan? Would this have been an appropriate happy ending for the story?
Chapter XIX (LVIII)
1. Was Pumblechook right, after all? Had Pip really squandered all of his opportunities with his own great expectations?
2. The forge is silent when Pip arrives, locked for the day. Did you see that marriage coming?
Chapter XX (LIX)
1. Did Dickens leave us with the promise of a happily-ever-after ending for Pip and Estella or not? Do you think this book needed or deserved a happy ending?
2. Do these three versions of the final line of the published edition, indicate a conflict in Dickens' mind concerning the ending?
~ ‘I saw no shadow of another parting from her’ ~ the standard reading in editions since 1862, presumably authorised by Dickens,
~ but the first editions read ‘I saw the shadow of no parting from her’,
~ while the manuscript in Dickens' hand, reads ‘I saw the shadow of no parting from her, but one.’
3. Did the edition you are reading include Dickens' original ending (http://www.digitaldickens.com/content.php?id=26), which was unpublished during his lifetime? Why do you think Dickens changed this ending before final publication?
Relevant Links:
Great Expectations Online - Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1400/1400-h/1400-h.htm#2HCH0001); Dickens and Victorian Education (http://omf.ucsc.edu/london-1865/schools-and-education/victorian-education.html); Problems of Autobiography and Fictional Autobiography in Great Expectations (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dickens/ge/huangcd.html); The Great Stink - Joseph Bazalgette and the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/bazalgette_joseph.shtml); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/cross13.htm);
ORIGINAL ENDING, unpublished during Dickens' lifetime (http://www.digitaldickens.com/content.php?id=26) |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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'Have you quite forgotten her?'
'My dear Biddy...that poor dream, as I once used to call it, has all gone by...all gone by.'
Despite its ambiguities, Chapter 59 is a beautifully written epilogue to this strange tale. The strange variations in the endings seem suitable in a way, in this land of mists and shadows. But a future with Estella? Impossible. I thought that Pip, contemplating a marriage proposal to Biddy, was done with his infatuation with Estella. But the ambience at Satis House brings it all back.
'The silvery mist was touched with the first rays of the moonlight, and the same rays touched the tears that dropped from her eyes....The freshness of her beauty was indeed gone, but its indescribable majesty and its indescribable charm remained.'
I would like to have chosen a different ending many times along the way. I think Jaggers could have done much more for Magwitch. Compeyson died an accidental death. The reader, of course knows there was murder in Magwitch's heart, but it would be difficult to prove it. Jaggers should have had no problem with getting a fairer sentence for a rehabilitated transport. The inujustice of the death penalty was becoming obvious.
I would have liked to see Magwitch and Pip making it to Hamburg, with Magwitch then enjoying the loving care that Clara 's Dad, and Wemmick's Dad received in their last years. Could Estella have been persuaded to join them? I find it strange that she never got to hear about her Dad. Or her Mom.
The most bizarre detail in the book? The search for Compeyson's body, for the sake of his socks! The part that was missing from the river junky's warddrobe.
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Ah, thanks, FRYBABE. Estella remarried with a child? I don't think so. Estella's words in
the newer 'ending' sound to me like those of a woman shielding herself from loss of dignity
or fear of being seen as needy. I have every confidence Pip will be able to reassure her of
his love for her and his esteem.
I was a bit surprised on learning of the marriage of Biddy and Joe, primarily because of
the age difference. Still, Biddy is an exceptionally wise and mature young woman, and she
would recognize Joe's sweet nature and fine character. I think they will be very well suited
and very happy together. And yes, JOANP, I did think it presumptuous...and egocentric...in
Pip to assume Biddy would be his for the asking.
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Oops! I goofed. It wasn't Estella with the child, but Pip. If I remember correctly, little Pip is the child of Joe and Biddy. At any rate, it doesn't change my opinion on which ending I like better.
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Hi
I just popped up out of the Rabbithole .We had a huge party for my husband's 80th birthday
and I didn't imagine how much work it would be. People came from near and far. Our house has just emptied of the last visiting guest that stayed with us.I can get back to "normal".
Although I couldn't post I was thinking of Great Expectations and, especially for the young adults that were here, and the "Great Expectations" that were part of each of them growing up and developing.. About how fate intervened in so many unexpected ways to bring each of them to the point where they are now.
I wondered also about Dickens writing a novel about our times with all the electronics involved. The complexity of our world and where we are heading.
I was interested about your opinions on reading Dostoyevsky as compared to Dickens. I, unlike those who felt that he was hard to read, found him in my teens and early twenties to be a most wonderful writer. The Best!
I swallowed his books and have read them all. Perhaps having to read Dickens in school made me wary of him.Only now, after our reading of Bleak House and GE have I fallen for Dickens and have found that he can be profound.
The final point was in reaction to Pip's belief that Biddy would marry him. As we have seen Pip is prone to dreams and expectations that are far from real. they are what he wants reality to be, not what is actually real.
This incident was needed to finally prove to Pip that his dreams are not real.-They exist in his head. They are bubbles that reality bursts.
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Babi
This is just to suggest to you that Anne Perry's youth was horrible. Almost a Dicken's tale.
At the age of 15 she and a friend murdered, yes murdered, the friends Mother. Anne Perry (a pseudonym) spent the next four years in jail.
If you wish to explore this event, rent the movie "Heavenly Creatures" which is a portrayal of this period in the writer's own life. Kate Winslett stars.
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Hahahaha, Fry - you had me back paging through the novel - rereading to see how I missed Estella's child! :D
There were wedding bells in the air in the last chapters, weren't there? Fulfilling the expectations of most young people - love, marriage - and children. Clara and Herbert, Biddy and Pip - Mr. Wemmich and his Miss Skiffins. Why do you think Dickens treated us to the detailed account of the Wemmick's "completed" wedding ceremony? It was humorous, I really did enjoy it ...was it there for comic relief - or can you think of another reason for it?
It seems that everyone is hoping that Pip will marry too - and have children of his own. But Pip is silent on the subject. Content to live on with Herbert and Clara.
Jude, you make an interesting point -
"As we have seen Pip is prone to dreams and expectations that are far from real. they are what he wants reality to be, not what is actually real."
Do you think that Pip has changed that much? Has his life experience caused him to change? Estella offers no hope for for a future together. But she does hope they can part as friends. But what of Pip? Does he still seem to have those old expectations? Is that the shadow Dickens refers to?
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Yes, JUDE, I am aware of Perry's history. It was a terrible thing, but I think it more fair
to judge her life in its entirety, rather than condemn her forever for the crime in her teens.
A sentence of four years for murder suggests to me that there was more to the story than I
know, and we cannot know what has gone on in her mind, heart and soul since then. The best
clue I have to that, is in the prevailing theme of all the books she as writen since. I
find William Monk's history particularly significant.
Back to Pip. I think we all have to learn the difference between dreams and reality as we grow up. Our expectations of life can be so rosy when we are young, but real life simply isn't that easy.
Biddy was kind and understanding with the very difficult young Pip, and I can see why he
might assume she would marry him. He still has some growing up to do.
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JoanP
You ask if Pip has changed that much?
This is a complex question since he has changed a great deal from the Pip who left for London.
However he has much to learn yet.
This is not peculiar to Pip alone but to most people. We are not finished products at age 30. If we are, than it is a sad human being who stops maturing at 30.
Most people, but not all, keep developing all their lives. Just look at Seniorlearn. Here we are discussing, thinking, learning and changing.
Personally, I feel that the original ending is better than the changed one. However, in both, Dicken's makes sure to tell us the lesson of the book:(re; Estella)
"...in her face, and in her voice, and in her touch, she gave me the assurance that suffering had been stronger than Miss Havisham's teaching, and had given her a heart to understand what ny heart used to be."
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Aha! Jude, that's exactly what I was feeling! Pip couldn't have changed that much by age 30, could he? If we had a different picture of him - happily married and settled, with his own little family, it would be one thing - we could readily accept that he had gotten over his unreasonable "expectations" regarding a future with Estella....
I've been rereading the two endings and all of your posts regarding the two endings. I can see where many would prefer a happier ending where there is some hope...rather than leave poor Pip forever caught up in an impossible dream.
I suppose that this was the reason Dickens went against his original conclusion and edited what he wrote to leave the possibility that somehow Estella would soften further and they would find happiness together..
I read that it was Wilkie Collins, a close friend and author of The Woman in White, who objected to the not-happy ending Dickens first wrote for Great Expectations.
Here are some objections to Dickens' revised ending -
"The second ending has generally been published from Dickens's time to our own, so that it is the one which most readers know. Critics have been arguing the merits of both endings since the novel's publication. Dickens's friend and biographer, John Forster, felt the original ending was "more consistent with the draft, as well as the natural working out of the tale." The writers George Gissing, George Bernard Shaw, George Orwell, William Dean Howells, Edmund Wilson and Angus Wilson agreed with Forster's preference. In modern criticism, the stronger arguments tend to support the second ending."
George Bernard Shaw: The novel "is too serious a book to be a trivially happy one. Its beginning is unhappy; its middle is unhappy; and the conventional happy ending is an outrage on it."
The second ending is an artistically indefensible and morally cheap about-face; its purpose is to please a popular audience which expects a conventional happy ending (i.e., marriage)."
Some of you have already expressed your preference for the original or for the revised.
I find myself agreeing with what Jonathan wrote on the subject -
"Despite its ambiguities, Chapter 59 is a beautifully written epilogue to this strange tale. The strange variations in the endings seem suitable in a way, in this land of mists and shadows."
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I cannot think of a thing to add to that last quote from JONATHAN. It sounds like the perfect
ending.
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I didn't find the second ending particularly happy. I thought it was sadish, poignant, and hopeful; kind of a final resolution to the past and a settling into reality and the future.
Pip "wrote" this memoir of his past, but when? Just after the ending point of the narrative or when he was old? I don't remember it saying, but the ending does not include marrying and living happily ever after with Estella (or anyone else that I can tell). Estella wants to remain friends but at a distance. So I can imagine that Pip remains devoted to Estella, keeps in touch, and remains a life long bachelor.
The original ending seemed kind of abrupt to me. I still can't see Estella ever marrying again now that both her husband and Ms. Havisham are dead. She has the means to stay independent on her own. Ms. Havisham's influence on her behavior may fade over time, but it will be a long time, if ever, before she trusts herself or anyone else. She may continue to toy with men's hearts for some time to come, but not with the vengeance and passion that Ms. Havisham would have required. She may slowly forgive herself for being a pawn of Ms. H.'s plan and learn to become herself. Twelve years, was it since she saw Pip at the end? She still isn't there yet.
Has anyone ever attempted to do a "what came after" book like some people do these days, picking up from where the original author left off.
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Thats a great thought Frybabe; I really enjoy reading past a conclusion in a book, and life doesn't necessarily stop with the books ending; interesting to think of where life goes after the conclusion, potentially it could do a 180 and change drastically in the direction it was heading....so many paths leading to further branches and conclusions
Deb
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This is the strangest thing to happen. Believe it or not!
I was cleaning out a shelf I hadn't touched in ten years. I came across a book called "The Artistic World of Charle's Dickens Christmas Books" by Tatiana A Boborykin.
This is a book written in Russian, translated into English which was given to everyone in a group of travelers to Russia in 1999. I was among them. I never gave the book a second glance. Today I browsed through it and the author discusses Dickens influence on Dostoyevsky and Freud.
She also discusses how Dickens began the whole genre of realistic fiction. She writes about the fact that Dickens could do this because he was the first author who understood the soul of the child.
I hope we return to Dickens again so I can utilize the material in this book for all to enjoy.
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"Dickens influence on Dostoyevsky and Freud.
She also discusses how Dickens began the whole genre of realistic fiction. She writes about the fact that Dickens could do this because he was the first author who understood the soul of the child."
What a find, Jude! Isn't that amazing? We'd been talking about Dostoyevsky and Freud and Dickens since the beginning!
Put it in a good place - a prominent spot on your book shelf! Surely we will visit Dickens again!
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To me that's the mark of a really good author, Deb - one who can create characters so real that their lives continue on, long after we have closed the book. I agree with you, Fry, when Dickens revised the ending for publication, he really didn't promise a happy ending, did he? But he did insert a ray of HOPE which was missing in the original ending. I think that's what his readers needed...and it is that hope that keeps the story going in our imaginations.
Look at this comment I found on Dickens' working notes on the novel...
"There are a few critics who have taken a third position; the novel should stop before Estella's final appearance. They note that Dickens, in his working notes on the novel, follows Pip's later career but does not refer to Estella. Miss Havisham referred to Estella's marriage many chapters earlier, so that there is no need to bring her up again; her fate is known."
Fry wonders about a "what comes after" book...I'm not sure anyone has attempted to write a follow-up on anything Dickens wrote. To be honest, I think we would find it disappointing. But your own imagination might produce some interesting scenarios. What do you think the future might have held for Pip and Estella?
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I went hunting for the book JudeS mentioned. There are several used bookstores listed on ABE that list it, but apparently it hasn't been published in the US.
Oh, here is something interesting: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-19109645 I wonder if BBC will make a special out of this.
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I hope so. It could be fascinating, especially if they compare what is here now to what Dickens saw.
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I've a son who lives and works in London, JoanK. He's having a good time following Dickens' characters through the streets and visiting the old buildings that are still there since Dickens' times. London is celebrating this anniversary year with many tours of the city based on his life and his novels.
A quick search - - a video of Dickens' London (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2012/02/simon-callow-dickens-london.html) - "It's remarkable how much is intact."
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And look at this link, Fry: London Film Festival will close with the European premiere of new Charles Dickens adaptation Great Expectations (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19408220)
Is this the same production aired on PBS not so long ago - with Helena Bonham Carter? I'm going to try to find this and watch again closely. Read what this article says about the two endings...
"Nicholls revealed last year that he had written a new ending for his "thriller" version of the film.
"Dickens came up with two endings - one which is incredibly bleak and one which is unrealistically romantic and sentimental," he said last November.
"Neither are quite satisfactory and we've come up with an ending that is somewhere in between."
I'm going to try to watch a number of different movie adaptations of this book to see how the endings were handled...
Great Expectations will be released in UK cinemas on 30 November"
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Estella's story is just begging to be told. Her life had just as much drama in it as Pip's, don't you think? She is so much more than the figment in Pip's imagination. Thanks for stating her case, Frybabe. But she did remarry, didn't she, after Drummle was kicked to death by his horse? I thought I read about a doctor from Shropshire., as the second husband.
I'm not happy with the revised ending. I can't see how Dickens allowed himself to be talked into it. I agree with Shaw's opinion. The 'happy' ending is an outrage. Estella's fate is heartbreaking. Happiness for her would be wonderful. But if we are going to reopen the past, I would also like to hear about a different ending re the Magwitch millions. Somebody should enjoy them. Estella might have gone after them, if she had known about them. Or would she have turned out to be too much a lady to accept them?
I can't bring myself to close this book. Let's go on to another. It has been a lot of fun.
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It's a bit late in the day to put in a bunch of thoughts that didn't make it before, especially since others have said much of it, but here goes. I thought the interlude of the attempted escape down the river was wonderfully effective. The detailed, colorful description of all the river traffic, everything seeming normal, then gradually little doubts creeping in, more and more suspicious things, finally turning into a most desperate chase. Throughout, Magwitch is passive and fatalistic; he doesn't really expect to succeed. Perhaps he doesn't even want to succeed. He's done the thing he devoted his life in Australia to, it's all finished. What now? Anticlimax and letdown?
I'm in the camp that prefers Dickens' original ending. Even though it feels a bit unfinished, it's more realistic. And I'm also with Jonathan in wanting to see Estella's story treated more fully.
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Jonathan...I,m
with you, very sorry to be finishing with Dickens books....In fact have picked up a copy of "The Old Curiosity Shop" to read...
......before reading Bleak House and Great Expectations and learning about this time period in England.....wouldn't have dreamed reading anything by Dickens
Deb
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JoanP
Thanks for that little video on The London where Dickens lived and worked.
England is really celebrating the 200th anniversary.
How wonderful to be remembered and revered so long after you've gone.
A last remark......
There could never be a book about Estella's childhood and life. It would be so full of emptiness and misery that no one would want to read it.
Although Pip's expectations were never realized, the promise. unfulfiiled as it was, kept us all reading, hoping and imagining.
He was surrounded by fascinating people, both good and bad. Poor Estella had Miss Havisham, a depressed wreck who wished for her daughter to become a destroyer of men.
Such a book wwould not be for me.
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The 'happy ending' was a concession to popular opinion, granted. But as Nicholls
said in that quote in JOANP's post, the original ending was very bleak. I'll be
interested to see what his 'in-beween' ending will be.
I agree with Jude that a book about Estella's childhood would be pretty much a one-note
affair, and that a depressing one. However, considering Estella's remarkable intelligence,
strength, and painfully won insights...a follow-up book of her future life could be very good.
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I've certainly enjoyed this discussion: all of the leaders have done their usual wonderful job. The bad thing about books is that they end-- the good thing, that they're still there to be enjoyed again.
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Thanks, all for a wonderful discussion. A special thanks to our DL's, Babi, JoanK, JoanP, Marcie, and PatH.
Bleak House and Pickwick Papers are waiting in my Kindle library to read.
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It was a wonderful discussion. Everyone did such a good and interesting job, and we really got all the meat out of the book. Thank you, everyone.
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Thank you everyone. As usual, I've learned a lot from each of you. I hope that we'll be discussing Pickwick Papers together in the near future.
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This was a great, rewarding discussion, one of the best in memory. Not sure if this was due to the author or the participants! Probably a combination of both! Hope you will join us again in the near future! Thank you one and all!
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It's been a wonderful group, as usual. I've enjoyed every minute of it. Let's get together again for 'The Tempest', shall
we? :-*
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Oh yes!
Pickwick Papers it is!
I hope to see you all there after the Storm..uh, Tempest is over.
Thank you all for a lively discussion and another wonderful Seniorlearn moment.
Oh dear, it was longer than a moment, right?
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just wanted to thank everyone for a wonderfully entertaining read made so by all the thoughts, aside interests, articles mentioned and especially history of the times
--would be very interested in reading another Dicken's novel sometime with the group
Deb
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Thanks again, everyone. We hope to see you all in the discussion of Shakespeare's The Tempest (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=139.0) and we won't forget your interest in Dickens' Pickwick Papers .
This discussion will now be Archived for future reference.